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You know, it has occurred to me that very few armies can match Drukhari for how many Damage D6 weapons they can field for so cheap. Especially at BS 3+.

Which brings me to a proof of concept: the blastergeddon infantry list.

Kabal of the Obsidian Rose - 2 battalions

Archon with venom blade (57)
Archon with venom blade (57)
Archon with venom blade (57)
Drazhar (100)

10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)

Ravager with 3 dark lances (140)
Ravager with 3 dark lances (140)
Ravager with 3 dark lances (140)


Total = 1999 points

This list includes 45 blaster-type weapons. With 24'' blasters thanks to Obsidian Rose, you just march your units forward and lay down a punishing hail of Damage D6 gunfire, making short work of vehicles and monsters. Your units are individually easy to wipe out, but even if you get second turn, few armies have enough firepower to significantly blunt the impact of your return fire.

Note that I have no plans to run such a list. For one thing, it would be ridiculously expensive unless you can kitbash or proxy some blasters. For another, it would lose me all my friends. It would also be tedious to paint and boring to play. It's only intended to challenge conventional wisdom about what a competitive Drukhari list looks like.

.

-Guardsman- wrote:
You know, it has occurred to me that very few armies can match Drukhari for how many Damage D6 weapons they can field for so cheap. Especially at BS 3+.

Which brings me to a proof of concept: the blastergeddon infantry list.

Kabal of the Obsidian Rose - 2 battalions

Archon with venom blade (57)
Archon with venom blade (57)
Archon with venom blade (57)
Drazhar (100)

10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)
10 Kabalite warriors with 2 blasters and a dark lance (109)

Ravager with 3 dark lances (140)
Ravager with 3 dark lances (140)
Ravager with 3 dark lances (140)


Total = 1999 points

This list includes 45 blaster-type weapons. With 24'' blasters thanks to Obsidian Rose, you just march your units forward and lay down a punishing hail of Damage D6 gunfire, making short work of vehicles and monsters. Your units are individually easy to wipe out, but even if you get second turn, few armies have enough firepower to significantly blunt the impact of your return fire.

Note that I have no plans to run such a list. For one thing, it would be ridiculously expensive unless you can kitbash or proxy some blasters. For another, it would lose me all my friends. It would also be tedious to paint and boring to play. It's only intended to challenge conventional wisdom about what a competitive Drukhari list looks like.

.

I know it's only hypothetical anyway but in that list I'd probably swap out the Ravagers, mainly because they give your opponent's a perfect target for all their anti-vehicle weapons. Not sure what I'd replace them with. Maybe Scourges or Mandrakes for a bit of mobility? (Or some form of allied detachment.)

Also, I'd be tempted to give the Archons Blasters, probably swapping out some of the Dark Lances. That give some of your Warrior squads more mobility and it means you have 3 Blasters firing at BS2+ (though admittedly this is dependant on the Legacy rules being legal).

I'd also be tempted to use Yvraine in place of Drazhar - since she can throw out a couple of Smites each turn, whilst Drazhar is either stuck on the backlines or else trying to advance alone.

(Again, I know it's only hypothetical, just thought I'd chime in a bit.)


To be honest, it's the sort of list I'd kinda like to play, just because it would be amusing to play DE in the style of Imperial Guard. Unfortunately, as you say, it would be horrendously expensive - especially for an army that probably won't even see much use.

 vipoid wrote:
I know it's only hypothetical anyway but in that list I'd probably swap out the Ravagers, mainly because they give your opponent's a perfect target for all their anti-vehicle weapons. Not sure what I'd replace them with. Maybe Scourges or Mandrakes for a bit of mobility? (Or some form of allied detachment.)

Yes, perhaps. Or enlarge some of the warrior units to 15 or 20, allowing you to add yet more blasters and dark lances. It makes them more vulnerable to morale, but the Obsidian Rose stratagem Failure Is Not An Option will come handy, especially against an opponent who's not familiar with it.

Also, I'd be tempted to give the Archons Blasters, probably swapping out some of the Dark Lances. That give some of your Warrior squads more mobility and it means you have 3 Blasters firing at BS2+ (though admittedly this is dependant on the Legacy rules being legal).

Even with blast pistols, Archons have a 14-inch threat range thanks to their movement. Problem is, they're unlikely to get in range of anything, because their warriors will already have mowed down everything else. I think I would keep the dark lances. Everyone acts like the -1 to hit when moving makes the dark lance no longer worth it, but that's not true at all. My Imperial Guard pays 20 pts for a lascannon (vs. the 15-pt dark lance), yet they have worse BS and no aura re-rolls.

I'd also be tempted to use Yvraine in place of Drazhar - since she can throw out a couple of Smites each turn, whilst Drazhar is either stuck on the backlines or else trying to advance alone.

Good point. I always forget about Ynnari.

.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Yes, perhaps. Or enlarge some of the warrior units to 15 or 20, allowing you to add yet more blasters and dark lances. It makes them more vulnerable to morale, but the Obsidian Rose stratagem Failure Is Not An Option will come handy, especially against an opponent who's not familiar with it.

That's also a possibility.

To be honest, I often forget that you can take up to 20 Warriors in a single squad. Probably because you can't fit more than 10 in a transport and there's rarely much reason to take more than 5.

-Guardsman- wrote:

Even with blast pistols, Archons have a 14-inch threat range thanks to their movement.
.

Whilst technically true, the men around them have weapons with ranges of 15+", so if an Archon wants to fire a Blast Pistol he'll be hard pressed to do so without exposing himself to enemy shooting. Blasters, though, can shoot from well behind the front line.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Problem is, they're unlikely to get in range of anything, because their warriors will already have mowed down everything else. I think I would keep the dark lances.
.

I mean, you could always fire the Archons first.

Hell, if you're determined to keep the Dark Lances, you could swap out 3 Kabalite Blasters for 3 Archon Blasters. Exact same weapon but you're doubling your chance of hitting.

I don't know, maybe it's just me but I like to feel that my HQs are actually contributing to the fight. Otherwise I might as well model them wearing waitress uniforms, bringing cakes and refreshments to their men.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Everyone acts like the -1 to hit when moving makes the dark lance no longer worth it, but that's not true at all. My Imperial Guard pays 20 pts for a lascannon (vs. the 15-pt dark lance), yet they have worse BS and no aura re-rolls.

The main difference is that DE are supposed to be one of the most mobile armies in the game, IG are almost the opposite. It's expected that a good portion of their units will just sit where they are and shoot, whilst DE expect to be moving around. Especially when you consider that Kabalites are meant to be riding atop highly-mobile transports (which themselves suffer no penalties for moving and shooting).

Incidentally, IG actually do have access to reroll auras (granted, only from special characters, but still), as well as potential rerolls from Orders. What's more, I'd argue that the Lascannon's S9 is far more valuable then the Dark Lance's extra point of AP.

-Guardsman- wrote:

Good point. I always forget about Ynnari..

Don't feel bad - so do GW.

Thats a lot of infantry with no protection. You'll just be shot off the table by any army that can shoot as D6 weapons are almost pointless when we can have flat 2D and 3D easily on vehicle.

A raider with a Dis cannon is 10 wounds, T5(6), 5++, 3 Shots, as Coven str5 +1 wound 3D at 36", can move fast/fly as well all for 80pts.

10 Warriors with 2 Blasters is 10 wounds, t3, shorter range (18") slower, no fly, 2 shots vs 3 shots, no invul but PFP, but 8 wounds before you lose damage, sure its str 8, but that doesn't really matter 90% the time. This is 94pts.

Even staying as Kabal and not Coven i would still add in Raiders or venoms, i prefer raiders.

It would be better to do 5mans with 1 shredder and a Raiders for 118pts

Archon
Yvarine
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC

Drazhar
Archon
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC

Archon
Ravager 3x DC
Ravager 3x DC
Ravager 3x DC
Raider DC
Raider DC

1994pts


To add: You can make Blasters out of Shredders if you REALLY wanted too.

Shredders are fun but im not entirely convinced we have a good points cost for putting out shredders anymore. Maybe if someone puts a bunch in raiders but the issue is the short range becomes a problem esp. If somebody just decides to charge your raiders. At that point you have to run away from combat and you can't shoot with the guys inside. At least splitting up the units in many raiders can be good.

My real issue is just about anything outside ravagers and maybe spammed venoms can be handled better with the new wych cult and coven obsessions. I mean I could run our flyers as kabal instead of wych cults but why would I when I can get the boost for anti tank and anti monster against any of those units with 10 wounds or more.

Honestly I'd probably use kabal more for anti infantry right now. I feel like the reavers with anti tank seem to live quite long for what they are too and often people don't have as many dedicated anti bike units which only have 2 wounds tops. It sounds iffy and sometimes it sorta is but it can do some decent work against some armies. I still have trouble with tau and custodes but that will only be until my new list destroys them. I can only hope this new list can handle most factions decently. I don't think it will be able to handle a massive tank force but we will just habe to see.

This is all so weird because while I play dark eldar efficiently or attempt to (keeping up with the cost of this game is hard for me). I don't know if a mono dark eldar list is esp. Competitive. Tau destroy us pretty hard as is regardless of most army lists which forces us to rely on objectives. Custodes are tough unless you can do lots of mortal wounds. I dont know space marines now but before the nerf all the super competitive not fun to play opponents switched to them. So yeah i think i play competitive for dark eldar but not competitive for 40k. I like the armies i like. If i dont like the playstyle and/or lore im not going to play the army.

Oh and though I also planned to try out infantry dark eldar like you the issue is dark eldar are basically guardsmen now. Horde infantry isn't that hard to kill but vehicles tend to be much harder to kill in 8th. Plus if you take them in transports they're more mobile and you dont have to worry about waiting till turn 2 to ds your shredder units.

@amish: I love dissies I really do but against lots of toughness 8 tanks with 3+ armor they leave a lot to be desired (dark technomancers might be the exception). I take dissies on my ravagers and I realize dark lances and blasters roll bad from time to time and suck vs anything better than a 5+ inv. Save but saying they don't have a place would be a lie. I'm also worried about it but I may use heat lances again on reavers with the +1 To wound obsession vs tanks and monsters. It's pretty dangerous to get within half range with heat lances but 2 rolls and take the highest for damage might balance out that crappy d6 damage randomness.

Once again, DC are almost equal to lances even against most tough things 90% the time and in more situations they are just better. Basically they are only worst in a couple situations, 1 of them being T7 with no invuls (not T8 funny enough lol). Then if you go Coven (which i would) its even better, nothing we have are better than Coven DC's the sad thing is you might take a wound yourself. Unlike Blastes/HL's you don't need to get close with fragile units. Plus now you can kill and wound marines on a 2+, or a + vs Aggressors b.c +1D, meaning you have a chance to kill 3.

Also if you really want dedicated Anti-Tank and not anti-MC, just takes Haywire.

3 DC and 3 DL vs a T8 with and without an Invul at 3+ save.

3 DC vs T8 3+ no Invul = 3.33w, w/ DT = 7.5
3 DC vs T8 3+ w/ Invul = 2.67w, w/ DT = 6

3 DL vs T8 3+ no Invul = 3.50w, w/ DT = 6
3 DL vs T8 3+ w/ Invul = 2.33w, w/ DT = 4

As you can see its only when there is no Invul that a DL is better and only by 0.17 wounds, the utility of DC and that they are better 90% the time makes them well worth it until something changes. If you prefer a DL, sure thats fine, but right now how 8th works DC is just better.

Now as for HL's, bc of the 2D6 pick highest roll, it might be worth it if you like that style, not sure i haven't look as i don;t play Reavers anymore after they change what i liked about them (HoW hits and Fly byes without using CP).

Im actually unsure about taking heat lances again. Its more due to the lack of wounding power vs tanks and the fact I have to get within 9 inches to hurt the enemy. Test of skill helps a lot but its more vs toughness 8 tanks with 3+ armor where it shines.

Ugh I just don't know. I might add warriors to raiders with blasters. I forgot that if I put my core tax in raiders instead of venoms that I could get some decent special weapons firepower for fairly cheap. The real question is do I want the poisoned shots at long range more or not. Decisions, decisions. Btw if I run scourge I'd either run em with dark lances , shardcarbines or shredders. The simple reason is they don't really live long enough or cost a cheap enough amount to run as anti tank in any serious form. I could run haywire but a game vs tau or nids or another army build that is infantry heavy or vehicles without inv. Saves makes them suck. With few exceptions not many vehicles outside of eldar factions and maybe orks have -1 To hit monsters or vehicles and I don't face any of those. Plus range works very well for our faction where we can get it due to lack of return fire. Also dark lances got less expensive in points so that blasters oddly cost more.

On the subject of venoms while they seem to do some work and arrive turn one they also don't have many poisoned shots per boat. Spread in many units they can be ok but the more you have the less good they are and it comes down to core tax. I'm just unsure if I should take mandrakes or some anti infantry scourge now. Perhaps 30 shardcarbines scourge. Ugh I just don't know. Keep in mind this is just because I'd rather have my core tax with blasters in vehicles and be harder to kill while my anti infantry units are easier to kill. I don't feel like venoms with warriors as well as raiders with warriors will be efficient enough.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Thats a lot of infantry with no protection. You'll just be shot off the table by any army that can shoot as D6 weapons are almost pointless when we can have flat 2D and 3D easily on vehicle.

A raider with a Dis cannon is 10 wounds, T5(6), 5++, 3 Shots, as Coven str5 +1 wound 3D at 36", can move fast/fly as well all for 80pts.

10 Warriors with 2 Blasters is 10 wounds, t3, shorter range (18") slower, no fly, 2 shots vs 3 shots, no invul but PFP, but 8 wounds before you lose damage, sure its str 8, but that doesn't really matter 90% the time. This is 94pts.

Even staying as Kabal and not Coven i would still add in Raiders or venoms, i prefer raiders.

It would be better to do 5mans with 1 shredder and a Raiders for 118pts

Archon
Yvarine
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC

Drazhar
Archon
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
5man, Shredder, Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC

Archon
Ravager 3x DC
Ravager 3x DC
Ravager 3x DC
Raider DC
Raider DC

1994pts


To add: You can make Blasters out of Shredders if you REALLY wanted too.

I've got a couple of questions if you don't mind me asking:

1) Do you really prefer Shredders to Blasters? They always seem a lot more niche to me - especially given that the rest of the unit is already rocking anti-infantry shots.

2) Are Raiders really efficient enough to be worth using even though you're only utilising half their transport capacity? I know Disintegrators are good but paying 80pts just for one doesn't seem terribly efficient.

Its cheaper and almost as effective, you have a good chance to still do a wound or more, but now you can have a much better weapon vs infantry, with AP and re-rolls for that. Also you are in double tap range for infantry on your poison, i really like the combo for warriors and feel they fit better.

Shredder worst part is its range so i can see if you don't like the range, that can be a deal breaker and i fully understand that. But D6 Str 6 shots are always good, and its more effective against light vehicles than blaster, say against T5-T6 vehicles (its only 0.25 wound less than a blaster vs T6) it does more damage to T5 than a blaster on average as well. Vs T8 its again only 0,25 wounds less (assuming the vehicles has 5++ for this purpose). So really 0.25 wounds to give you a much better anti-infantry weapon for less than 1/2 the points to me is well worth it over a blaster.

A venom is 65pts, a Raider is 80pts so 15points difference, they have 40% more wounds, but takes 16.7% more damage. Assuming a Stalker Bolter shooting both for now with re-rolls all 1's it'll take 16 shots to kill a venom but it'll take 24 shots to kill a Raider. So it is actually more survivable without any outside help and IMO worth the points.

We just don't see Raider spam b.c for a long time they gave up a lot of secondaries for ITC and ITC is king for list building on dakka, and also there has been a lot of Hordes, with IG, Daemons, Drones, etc.. compare to elite Marine units like we are seeing now.

I personally play with 5 of each and either throw in Talos for mono or Skyweavers for Mix, or sometimes fliers.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its cheaper and almost as effective, you have a good chance to still do a wound or more, but now you can have a much better weapon vs infantry, with AP and re-rolls for that. Also you are in double tap range for infantry on your poison, i really like the combo for warriors and feel they fit better.

Shredder worst part is its range so i can see if you don't like the range, that can be a deal breaker and i fully understand that. But D6 Str 6 shots are always good, and its more effective against light vehicles than blaster, say against T5-T6 vehicles (its only 0.25 wound less than a blaster vs T6) it does more damage to T5 than a blaster on average as well. Vs T8 its again only 0,25 wounds less (assuming the vehicles has 5++ for this purpose). So really 0.25 wounds to give you a much better anti-infantry weapon for less than 1/2 the points to me is well worth it over a blaster.

I'll admit I do like the range on the Blaster, though that's at least partially because it makes it fairly easy to get within range of infantry (for the splinter rifles) and also a vehicle/monster (for the blaster).

Going by your math, the Shredder is more effective than I thought against vehicles.

I'll try swapping out my Blasters for Shredders and see how it goes.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

A venom is 65pts, a Raider is 80pts so 15points difference, they have 40% more wounds, but takes 16.7% more damage. Assuming a Stalker Bolter shooting both for now with re-rolls all 1's it'll take 16 shots to kill a venom but it'll take 24 shots to kill a Raider. So it is actually more survivable without any outside help and IMO worth the points.

We just don't see Raider spam b.c for a long time they gave up a lot of secondaries for ITC and ITC is king for list building on dakka, and also there has been a lot of Hordes, with IG, Daemons, Drones, etc.. compare to elite Marine units like we are seeing now.

I personally play with 5 of each and either throw in Talos for mono or Skyweavers for Mix, or sometimes fliers.

Hmm, I can see where you're coming from. I haven't actually used Raiders in a while as they tended to die really early on (they're more survivable but in my experience they also draw far more fire). As with Shredders, I'll give them a go and see what happens.

Cheers for the input.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Thats a lot of infantry with no protection. You'll just be shot off the table by any army that can shoot as D6 weapons are almost pointless when we can have flat 2D and 3D easily on vehicle.

120 bodies don't get shot off the table as easily as you think. When I run my Cadians with 12 units of 10 guardsmen, it takes my opponent several turns to chew through them, even at 2000 pts. Guardsmen have roughly the same defensive profile as Kabalite warriors (T3 and 5+), worse Leadership, and no 6+ FNP.

I feel like the conventional Drukhari list that you are proposing, while well-intentioned, misses the point I'm trying to make: namely, that if you just spam the hell out of the Drukhari's cheap infantry (essentially running them as a horde army), you have enough "staying power" and special weapons to survive a first strike, then deal such a devastating second strike that you pretty much pre-empt a third strike.

I already run a transport- and Ravager-heavy Kabalite list. Believe me, I know it's effective. But at some point all Drukhari lists end up looking the same. I'm proposing an alternative take, even though I know that the Blastergeddon list is just impractical for a variety of pragmatic reasons (such as cost).

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Shredders are fun but im not entirely convinced we have a good points cost for putting out shredders anymore. Maybe if someone puts a bunch in raiders but the issue is the short range becomes a problem esp. If somebody just decides to charge your raiders.

With Obsidian Rose, shredders are quite effective, now with a 18'' range.

.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Thats a lot of infantry with no protection. You'll just be shot off the table by any army that can shoot as D6 weapons are almost pointless when we can have flat 2D and 3D easily on vehicle.

120 bodies don't get shot off the table as easily as you think. When I run my Cadians with 12 units of 10 guardsmen, it takes my opponent several turns to chew through them, even at 2000 pts. Guardsmen have roughly the same defensive profile as Kabalite warriors (T3 and 5+), worse Leadership, and no 6+ FNP.

I feel like the conventional Drukhari list that you are proposing, while well-intentioned, misses the point I'm trying to make: namely, that if you just spam the hell out of the Drukhari's cheap infantry (essentially running them as a horde army), you have enough "staying power" and special weapons to survive a first strike, then deal such a devastating second strike that you pretty much pre-empt a third strike.

One amusing thing you could do (which I think someone else proposed a while back) would be to run the list as Ynnari and use Shield of Ynnead to give most of your infantry a 5++.


Also, on the subject of infantry lists, I'm wondering if it would work better to have a Battalion of Warriors and then a Battalion of Wracks (instead of 2 Warrior Battalions)?

(I know none of us will be making this list but it's fun to theorise. )

@guardsman:

I normally take flayed skull for my units in transports because cover bonuses are annoying as hell. In the case of blasters in raiders I might take obsidian rose (24" blasters are a decent range to prevent being charged or shot at by as many things) since I plan to go for either shardcarbine scourge or mandrakes. Shardcarbines scourge could at least be numerous enough for a little durability and fast enough I might be able to start them on the field. Considering the assault weapons I'd even be able to advance them around without issue (provided -1 To hit will be worth it).

If you are so dead set on this warrior list like i was then do what I suggested when I planned for the same thing. Take them in units of 20 and instead of taking the dark eldar codex sub factions go into Phoenix rising. One obsession allows you to only lose one guy if you fail a morale check. The other obsession allows you to spam webway assault (or whatever it's called) and that lets you buy another webway assault stratagem per detachment with that obsession (This could allow you to deep strike 4 groups of 20 warriors each for 80 total and costs 6 cp). I'm not sure if you can realistically spend more cp effectively and if any more guys ds'ing would be beyond the ds limit. 80 warriors popping up in front of you within rapid fire is still kind of scary though esp. With special weapons like blasters or shredders. If you go pure shredders that's 16 shredders. That by itself is horrifying. Not only that but every time you try to kill warriors you have to kill off the whole squad and if you don't they only lose one guy to morale failures which will still probably lose special weapons last. The issue with this list is whatever survives this shooting is now really close to you and can do a lot of damage to those warriors whether through melee or shooting.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Thats a lot of infantry with no protection. You'll just be shot off the table by any army that can shoot as D6 weapons are almost pointless when we can have flat 2D and 3D easily on vehicle.

120 bodies don't get shot off the table as easily as you think. When I run my Cadians with 12 units of 10 guardsmen, it takes my opponent several turns to chew through them, even at 2000 pts. Guardsmen have roughly the same defensive profile as Kabalite warriors (T3 and 5+), worse Leadership, and no 6+ FNP.

I feel like the conventional Drukhari list that you are proposing, while well-intentioned, misses the point I'm trying to make: namely, that if you just spam the hell out of the Drukhari's cheap infantry (essentially running them as a horde army), you have enough "staying power" and special weapons to survive a first strike, then deal such a devastating second strike that you pretty much pre-empt a third strike.

I already run a transport- and Ravager-heavy Kabalite list. Believe me, I know it's effective. But at some point all Drukhari lists end up looking the same. I'm proposing an alternative take, even though I know that the Blastergeddon list is just impractical for a variety of pragmatic reasons (such as cost).

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Shredders are fun but im not entirely convinced we have a good points cost for putting out shredders anymore. Maybe if someone puts a bunch in raiders but the issue is the short range becomes a problem esp. If somebody just decides to charge your raiders.

With Obsidian Rose, shredders are quite effective, now with a 18'' range.

.

You can't really compare DE to IG tho, while DE are slightly better at BS and as a 5+/6++, they are also more points. You are almost a 400pts difference for 60IG vs 60Kabals.

120 Guardsmen with no updrades (B.c you wont need them, put the weapons on something better) thats only 480pts. Your 120 kabals, 1,308pts, thats 1,128pts difference. That is over 1/2 an army more you can bring.

But you say "well they have 2 blasters and a DL each", ok so? turn 1 your blasters wont hit anything of value, that means if you moved your DL's so your other 9 guys can get into range, with an Archon rr1's you still only hit with 7. If you are Obi rose you might get away with not moving some of your heavy weapons each turn, but for sure you will move them all at least 2-3 times, and at times you'll need to run making it so they cant even shoot (if playing objective games).

My post has a more optimized version of what he wants to do if you wish to read it. It's more based around shredders though and the Phoenix rising obsessions. It should be the 2nd paragraph of my previous post.

It's basically 80 warriors with shredders in ds with Phoenix rising allowing more ds. It costs 6 cp though but it costs about 128 pts for the 16 shredders and 480 pts for the warriors. So 608 pts total but this doesn't count what you wish to do aside from that. The other issue is it's a unit that relies on waiting till turn 2 to do anything. That said much of our anti infantry is in that boat unfortunately.

Yeah and since i have'nt tried DSing 80 Kabals, idk how well it'll work but it is IMO better than 120 with DL's starting on the table. My only concern would be you being zoned out easily. Or zoned to force to DS where you don't want too. It is 80 bodies after all.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You can't really compare DE to IG tho, while DE are slightly better at BS and as a 5+/6++, they are also more points. You are almost a 400pts difference for 60IG vs 60Kabals.

120 Guardsmen with no updrades (B.c you wont need them, put the weapons on something better) thats only 480pts. Your 120 kabals, 1,308pts, thats 1,128pts difference. That is over 1/2 an army more you can bring.

But you say "well they have 2 blasters and a DL each", ok so? turn 1 your blasters wont hit anything of value, that means if you moved your DL's so your other 9 guys can get into range, with an Archon rr1's you still only hit with 7. If you are Obi rose you might get away with not moving some of your heavy weapons each turn, but for sure you will move them all at least 2-3 times, and at times you'll need to run making it so they cant even shoot (if playing objective games).

On this note, I had a bash at making an infantry IG list.

I ended up with a MT Battalion and a regular IG Brigade.

It was a total of 144 bodies including:
- 4 psykers
- 14 BS3+ Plasmaguns
- 3 BS3+ Plasma Pistols
- 3 BS4+ Plasmaguns
- 6 Grenade Launchers
- 3 Missile Launchers
- 9 Autocannons
- 3 Plasma Cannons

Now, on the face of it that might sound considerably less impressive than 24 BS3+ Blaster Shots and 12 Dark Lance shots.

But here's the kicker - the above cost just 1388pts. Less than 75% of the Infantry-Kabalite list. Hell, even if we're only playing at 1500pts, I've still got enough points to add at least a couple more squads or to tool up the existing ones further (I used Grenade Launchers because they're cheap and to see how far I could stretch the points, but I could easily trade them for more Plasmaguns, as well as adding Lascannons if I feel like it). What's more, all the BS3+ weapons have the option of deep-striking, so you've got quite a bit more flexibility when it comes to deployment.

To be honest, I'm only posting this because I'd actually forgotten just how much you can have in an IG list (shows how long it's been since I last played mine ).

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Thats a lot of infantry with no protection. You'll just be shot off the table by any army that can shoot as D6 weapons are almost pointless when we can have flat 2D and 3D easily on vehicle.

120 bodies don't get shot off the table as easily as you think. When I run my Cadians with 12 units of 10 guardsmen, it takes my opponent several turns to chew through them, even at 2000 pts. Guardsmen have roughly the same defensive profile as Kabalite warriors (T3 and 5+), worse Leadership, and no 6+ FNP.

I feel like the conventional Drukhari list that you are proposing, while well-intentioned, misses the point I'm trying to make: namely, that if you just spam the hell out of the Drukhari's cheap infantry (essentially running them as a horde army), you have enough "staying power" and special weapons to survive a first strike, then deal such a devastating second strike that you pretty much pre-empt a third strike.

I already run a transport- and Ravager-heavy Kabalite list. Believe me, I know it's effective. But at some point all Drukhari lists end up looking the same. I'm proposing an alternative take, even though I know that the Blastergeddon list is just impractical for a variety of pragmatic reasons (such as cost).

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Shredders are fun but im not entirely convinced we have a good points cost for putting out shredders anymore. Maybe if someone puts a bunch in raiders but the issue is the short range becomes a problem esp. If somebody just decides to charge your raiders.

With Obsidian Rose, shredders are quite effective, now with a 18'' range.

.

See, that's the problem.

You say you play Imperial Guard. 120 bodies of 4 point 5+ saves don't just get shot off the table. 120 bodies of 6 point 6+ is a whole different story.

I'm not really a fan of plasma guns and I haven't played guard since 5th. In 5th plasma and melta were good. Now plasma is kinda meh (Dunno about executioner leman russ).

I still think anti infantry is poorer at long range than close range but these days im more worried about tau, custodes and marines. Tau will just spam drones and while you have to get close to deal with that (all of our anti infantry shooting is 18" max for any good volume of firepower with dissies being the exception). Funny bit is people say tau effective shooting range is 18" or less so basically all our anti infantry options have to be spammed in numbers and take either insane overwatch due to our melee units being anti infantry or we have to be in the tau shooting death zone so we either make our anti infantry shooting count and hit hard or making it spread out super far. The good thing about this is marker lights are needed just to make tau shooting somewhat accurate so negative modifiers to hit make tau cry. I may take mandrakes since a lot of anti tank my regular tau opponent takes tend to have a +1 To hit sub-system for flyers on battlesuits. Mandrakes don't fly and aren't vehicles and the -1 To hit base would annoy him.

On the other hand we have custodes which hit hard and super accurately and are great at melee. The problem again is all our anti infantry shooting except dissies is 18" range and the negative modifiers to hit doesn't do much against custodes. Also poison sucks vs armor that heavy so shredders, dissies and mandrakes are more viable. The fact custodes are accurate and lack number of shots means a lot of spread out wounds annoys them. Other good ways to counter them are good inv. Saves. I imagine wyches with 3+ inv saves with that one cult obsession would be super obnoxious for them or just wyches in general but lack of a consistent inv. Save is also crap so wracks are probably better here. If I recall custodes can't do mortal wounds or at least not in any big way and they don't have good resistance to mortal wounds. Sadly mandrakes aren't as good here except for the ap they have and mortal wounds. The inv save is ok but they are expensive and custodes shooting and melee would still shred them. They just become extremely expensive and fragile per model vs custodes shooting and melee and can't really run away too fast.

@amish: I could always try out this warrior horde in ds build. I already have the shredders I need. I just don't know if I want to do this because it'd really screw up my current idea for handling tau. Also once those warriors are bogged down in melee they are stuck there. The main issue is short ranged shooting doesn't work so hot in numbers as you said and most of our spammed shots for shooting are either longer range and less bodies (mandrakes, shardcarbines scourge and venoms), lots of shots and bodies at 12" range (spammed warriors in the loadout I suggested), short range (shredder scourge) or mounted good anti infantry at 12" range (Shredders in transports). Anything at 12" range will be charged, have trouble shooting something due to unit size or get lit up by shooting like times square on new years eve. 18" shooting is vulnerable usually to be wiped out. Looking at all the options I'm actually thinking mandrakes are the best option all around but it's all hardly ideal.

You can try out the horde list, just if you don't have the models i would proxy them for now before you buy them lol. If you do show us a Bat rep!

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You can try out the horde list, just if you don't have the models i would proxy them for now before you buy them lol. If you do show us a Bat rep!

When I asked people for a counter to all the lists I fight the most interesting response and "oh I'm stupid" feeling I had was somebody suggesting lots of grotesques. After that I realized if I took a small detachment of 10 or more grotesques and gave them the -1 damage trait it'd basically negate those annoying heavy burst cannons I hate so much (I might take em on foot). Another thing it does is it negates a lot of the multiple damage attacks of custodes, has invulnerable saves the custodes can't get rid of and a fairly high toughness and wounds. The flesh gauntlet attacks should also eventually hurt riptides and should hurt custodes. My only problem is that riptides will still probably be able to stay away from them if they want to. They won't be easy to shift though.

I will have to give support to these grotesques though (killing off single damage attack enemies where possible so the grotesques don't get hurt too badly) but 350 pts for 10 is a steal and I already have at least 10. Grotesques in this build won't be able to really hurt vehicles, knights or even big monsters too well though. So yeah if nothing else grotesques would be there to hold those enemies down while the anti vehicle and anti monster goes to work. I'm also unsure if I should start them out on the table, in transports or ds them. I think I was thinking of starting them on the board but then it'd take forever to get em somewhere if im facing a gun-line whereas if its a melee army they become a good shield for my shooting units. If I ds them and fail a charge though they'll be out in the open with all these guns in their face. It might not be a big deal though since they'd make a good bullet sponge for not a lot of points and they'd be able to eat up shots. Yeah ds is probably the way to go even with haemonculus as his own ds with them.

Stupid? No not at all, do some of us feel maybe might be over estimating? Sure. Hope we didn't come off wrong, its hard on the internet to set a tone.

No I'm saying I chatted in some dark eldar Facebook page for tactics on my local meta and grotesques with the -1 damage obsession sound like the best choice they suggested. It was something I have and something that's so obvious to do and yet I didn't realize it.

That said I heard farsight enclaves got some really nasty crisis suit ds abilities but I'm still on vacation and haven't seen their greater good psychic awakening book yet. It sounds ridiculously OP and cheap in points. I feel like somebody wrote something wrong because there's no way something so low in points could hit that ridiculously hard. I don't know all the circumstances but the best tactic against the crisis suit spam seems to be spamming cheap units possibly, using dissies and focusing them down but that still might not be enough.

-------------

It's also probably irrelevant but maybe I should zoom a couple archons over there in transports to get ready for the turn 2 ds so I can get lots of re roll to hit 1s. Hmm but if I am already ds'ing so many infantry maybe I should ds archons there as well since it isn't safe to go in a transport and on foot is far too slow. Meh it's probably not worth it getting the archons over there. It'd just end up costing too much in various ways and/or being too risky and they might not get there in time anyway. Re roll 1s to hit on all those warriors would be hilarious but i dont know that itd be worth it. Spending more than 6 cp on this is also crap for giving them archon 6" buff.

Since we're on the subject of unusual lists/tactics, might I ask if anyone has managed to make use of any of the following:

- The Soul-Seeker (Seems fun but IMO could do with an extra shot, and is further hampered by being exclusive to Poison Tongue)

- Spirit-Sting (Another pistol and one that negates invulnerable saves but with D1 I'm uncertain as to what it's meant to be shooting at.)

- Traitor's Embrace (The idea of a suicide-Succubus amuses me greatly but has anyone got this to work?)

- Treacherous Deceiver Warlord Trait (This looks like it's meant to combo with something... but for the life of me I can't figure out what.)

- Literally any of the Custom Kabals (Especially curious as to whether anyone has used the melee ones)

- Slashing Impact or Dark Harvest

- The Cronos

 vipoid wrote:
Since we're on the subject of unusual lists/tactics, might I ask if anyone has managed to make use of any of the following:

- The Soul-Seeker (Seems fun but IMO could do with an extra shot, and is further hampered by being exclusive to Poison Tongue)

- Spirit-Sting (Another pistol and one that negates invulnerable saves but with D1 I'm uncertain as to what it's meant to be shooting at.)

- Traitor's Embrace (The idea of a suicide-Succubus amuses me greatly but has anyone got this to work?)

- Treacherous Deceiver Warlord Trait (This looks like it's meant to combo with something... but for the life of me I can't figure out what.)

- Literally any of the Custom Kabals (Especially curious as to whether anyone has used the melee ones)

- Slashing Impact or Dark Harvest

- The Cronos

the soul-seeker and spirit-sting both fill a similar role of being a character hunting relic. Personally i find the spirit string better since it bypasses most non-marine character save completely, while leaving marines with a 6+ usually. the downside is that you need to be playing the dark creed and pay 2 cp to be able to snipe characters. with 3 shots its got decent generic firepower against infantry at least. I'd love to see it get a buff on its damage tho.

Suicide succubi is fun when it works. I use her with painbringer + the net to lock down a character in combat and force him to blow me up, keep a reroll for the damage roll.

treacherous deceiver is a great addition to the previously mentionned succubis when running an alliance of agony (so you don't forfeit your warlord).

custom kabals are a joke and i see no reason to take any of them over black heart/flayed skull, the only one that has a redeeming quality is the extra webway strike one for gimmicky lists.

slashing impact is good but really needed to work on vehicles too.

the cronos is cute and helps in cult/coven lists but from my experience any support units that are targettable will get blown up super fast. If the cronos was a character instead of a regular unit, it would be much more interesting, as it stands hes just an overly expensive half-lieutenant that might heal something if youre extremely lucky.

I have a Yncarne already but i painted it like a Cegorach clone (b.c its cool and Ynnari isn't)

But it felt weird with it in my DE army, so i'm getting this model for my Dark Yncarne! Already ordered just waiting for it to arrive

https://www.ragingheroes.com/products/yscarloth-le-f?_pos=5&_sid=500ba03b1&_ss=r

Oh that's nice.

Doesn't quite fit the theme of my own list, unfortunately, but I can certainly see why you'd choose it.

Unfortunately, I'm also unbelievably immature:

So she's made out of naked people? Either that or somebody has a really weird fetish but if it's dark eldar or slaanesh that's not exactly surprising.

On the dark eldar Facebook group I'm a part of there's a significant amount of prudes in there if I recall. A lot aren't but I dunno. For instance some use slave girl models from other studios. Personally I don't think I'd ever buy those models in case I get a girlfriend. It's not my thing but you can't exactly have slave girl models unless the lady you're with is into bdsm or something and while I love pervy girls (in fact I think if I end up with a lady one of the things she must be is a pervert) the whole bdsm thing just isn't my style.

That said if it's your thing and you want to buy these models it's entirely up to you. It's not good to kink shame unless somebody is being hurt or it's super predatory.

My wife loves that model too tho.....

Spoiler for the non adults.


Even if it didn't have the naked dead women, the style of the model is what i like, i could care less about 2mm plastic toy boobs.