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Wyldcarde wrote: The problem is counting drukhari isnt exactly easy. Certain builds anyway. For dealing with raiders especially you go to far to being able to handle a dozen of them, and you weaken yourself to the usual tanks and vehicles the meta expects
Automatically Appended Next Post: What has been peoples experiences so far? What has your drukhari force really struggled against? Especially looking at full mech drukhari, I have had a couple of games against some matchups that I thought would be tough and they have not been as challenging as I expected.
Has hordes with backup fire power that we cant get to and Invuls, Daemons, IG, even some nids lits. If they can put 100+ on the table and still have enough S5+ with at least -1ap it hurts us badly, IMOSoB Horde with HB's and SB's is our hardest opponent, they can have 110+ models with 70+ special weapons (Melta, SB's HB's etc..) Poison doesnt care if they are T3, everything is 3+ so again poison wont do much, dissie Ravagers will kill 3.8 a turn with re-rolls hits and wounds of 1's, unless you are shooting seraphim then its only 2 a turn.
Ive done the math once (B.c I play both armies and wanted to know who would win) with 3 Ravagers, 3 RWJF and 3 Kabals in Dissie Raiders (Rest assuming Coven or Wyches for turn 2 charges), it was only 16 kills. SoB returns with way more damage than 3 BSS with 2 SB's and a HB each equaling up to 147pts, SB esaily killed 2 Raiders, all kabals/Wyches in them and some other damage (3-4 grots), but thats without Celestine, Relic Canoness and 3 units of Seraphim fighting.
flamingkillamajig wrote: So i'm curious what i should use for my main dark eldar army with the new rules. DS on turn 2 instead of 1 would nerf scourge significantly (as if they needed it). I'm just unsure what to get. Should i keep my dissie ravagers and go dark lance on other units (like flyers)? Should i also keep my reavers and add a 2nd squad (two 9 man squads for 18)? I just dunno.
Nothing wrong with Scourges, they're a support unit not the main threat so there's no problem with them coming in turn 2. I'm looking at going 1 Tripple Lance, 2 Tripple Dissie with my Ravagers since I occasionally come across the harder targets that I'd rather have the lances for. Not sold on huge squads of Reavers myself, I'm thinking 2 or 3 squads of 6 since they seem to work best as fast objective grabbers and harrassment units.
Well i liked shredder scourge (is that odd?). That said LoS and ruins made them have an iffy time even when they DS in turn 1. Reavers are ok-ish. I think the main power of reavers just comes in with holding gun-lines down. If you're facing a gun-line that's great but otherwise it's really not. Usually i don't think i'd need more than one big squad but vs guard i might. I suppose i don't see guard or tau much though. I still think shredder scourge combined with reavers assaulting after worked out sorta ok though.
Rule of 3 is tournament only so that's not a huge deal for me since i'm not into the tournie scene much.
One of my big issues is i feel like i need to axe dissie ravagers, shredder scourge or reavers and so far looking at my non-gunline meta it's probably gonna be the bikes but shredder scourge only have about a turn on their own before getting destroyed and don't seem to kill as much as i'd want them to. I still feel like i'd like to fix up my tactics with both a bit before completely getting rid of them but i dunno.
I kinda need a melee unit that can hit a DS'ing MEQ or TEQ army and i'd probably prefer covens to do that job (grotesques) but that can only happen if i drop the reavers and wych units and have 1/3 of my army go covens instead of wyches.
I understand some people felt ok about incubi but as time goes on this is increasingly a t4 or t5, 2 wounds and 3+ armor save battle with possible invulnerable saves or FnP. Incubi tend to do horrendous against some of those unless you have a lot of freaking incubi (maybe 20 at least). Anyway that's just what i think. Back in the day you could get away with 5 man squads and it could even do damage vs fairly elite marines and TEQ (though maybe die in the process) but now you either need numbers or stay home.
I've found that Shredders work better on Trueborn than Scourge, getting ignores cover from Flayed Skull and a 19" move with the Venom they're in or an extra 6" of range with Obsidian Rose has been great in making sure I can get them to hit the targets I want and kill them, deep striking Scourge aren't always able to go after the targets they want to with only 12" range on Shredders. I've found Scourge work best with anti tank so Blasters or Haywire Blasters are the go to option there for me.
Rule of 3 is a suggestion for organised play but my group is addopting it for our games as it's generally a good idea, though it does cause a few problems none of them are really major.
I've found that running Kabal and either Cult or Coven tends to be the best way to do things. People complain that there's little synergy between our 3 subfactions but I think thats only true with special rules, the way the army is designed means that Kabal tends to naturally just synergise with Cult and Coven via their playstyles but it also means that since Cult and Coven are generally trying to do the same thing (though in two different ways) you don't really need to run both of them. Given what you've said about your usual opponents I can see dropping Cult for Coven being a good choice.
Yeah, Incubi are a little laking in their damage output but their real problem is the complete lack of synergy with anything else in the army, everything thats supposed to benefit them does so in a "yes, but not really" kind of way.
ThePie wrote: Any people who gotten any use out of wyches?
What is optimal between running them in a 20 blob, 2 ten man teams in raiders or 4 five man teams in venoms (all units with shardnet of course)
I've run 1 shardnet 2 hydra, 1 shardnet 2 razor, and 1 shardnet configs for my wyches and all have gotten me serious mileage.
The really powerful "Wych Trick" I've figured out and haven't seen anyone really talking much about is:
Wych unit charges enemy unit. One model moves into base to base, shardnet moves within 3" but not within 1", all other models outside 1".
Your turn, do not pile in any units within 1" of enemy models or within 1" of the one model in contact. Feel free to use pile-in for positioning. Attack with the single wych, then pile in the squad the full 3" afterwards.
Now you get your 80% chance to keep the enemy unit stuck in combat, there's no risk of them being able to use casualties or leadership casualties to get out of combat or letting you wipe the unit so they can shoot your Wyches.
It is a commonly useful technique, not always useful (obviously you don't want to do it if the target your charging is dangerous in close combat enough to threaten your wyches, or if you don't feel like you're going to cause significant damage to the unit such that you just want all your attacks) but I've found it supremely invaluable as a way to turn my opponent's 5-man squads of fire warriors, 2-man drone squads, guard infantry squads etc into one-turn mario invincibility stars for my wyches.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I've tried 3x10 cult of strife wyches in raiders: agoniser and blast pistol for the hekatrix, 1 shardnet and impaler and two razorflails or hydra gauntlets. Lelith has her own venom, the other succubus goes on foot or shares the same transport. Those wyches from that cult are a very good unit IMHO.
I've also tried the blob of 20 which costs exactly like 10 in a raider, but I think it's a suboptimal choice.
Then I've run 3x5 wyches, that belong to a red grief battallion, in venoms: hekatrix with agoniser and a model with shardnet and impaler in each squad. If you play aggressively, for example in a detachment with 3x3 reavers or 2x3 reavers and a squad of hellions, they may be a nice unit as well. Blast pistols are optional for units that small, I never have the spared points.
The 3x10 wyches in raiders are very common in my games, while the 3x5 squads were brought to battle only sometimes in addition to those 3x10 wyches.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/10 20:19:45
I feel like the +1 str is pretty much needed for wyches so 'cult of the cursed blade' sounds pretty legit for wyches to me. Sadly vs any with fast melee assault units the red grief might still be king. We'll have to see.
@Imateria: I wouldn't mind incubi if you could boost them to strength 5 or do something to boost them more. Anything with toughness 5 or even 4 and decent armor and multiple wounds just sorta laughs str 4 incubi off even with the good AP. It just makes me unsure if i should use them. As i keep saying they could be legit but would need to be spammed.
I am constantly thinking about doing coven over wych cult due to good toughness and decent invulnerable saves as well as some killing power. Wyches could do anti-horde maybe but i think the str 4 is pretty much needed to work it right. I think that's the one good thing for 'cursed blade' but anti-gunline is still very much 'red grief'. I do very much think specialties do work that way for obsessions. Red grief is for reavers whereas cursed blade do wych spam better. Strife are probably better with hellions if anything due to more attacks.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/11 22:35:57
Incubi need S5 and D2/Dd3 on their attacks. 2W would also be really nice, but not absolutely necessary. Make them more expensive if you have to, at least it would give them a purpose. They lack the raw volume of attacks and durability to take on hordes, and they lack the hitting power to handle elite infantry. They're very much a unit that is living in an older edition, back when terminators got 1W and Custodians weren't a thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/11 23:13:32
+1A is usually better than +1S, that's why I prefer the wych cult of strife over the cursed blade. Lelith also allows to bring two wych cult battallions if you want them. The stratagem that allows to fight twice can be devastating and I love it, even if it's not easy to use at its maximum potentiality.
The cursed blade really shines when fielding 2 or more blobs of 20 wyches that are basically immune to morale.
IMHO incubi could even be fine with the current stats, but they'd need some faction bonus at least. The black heart, poisoned tongue, strife or cursed blade buffs would make incubi a decent unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 12:38:00
Blackie wrote: +1A is usually better than +1S, that's why I prefer the wych cult of strife over the cursed blade. Lelith also allows to bring two wych cult battallions if you want them. The stratagem that allows to fight twice can be devastating and I love it, even if it's not easy to use at its maximum potentiality.
The cursed blade really shines when fielding 2 or more blobs of 20 wyches that are basically immune to morale.
IMHO incubi could even be fine with the current stats, but they'd need some faction bonus at least. The black heart, poisoned tongue, strife or cursed blade buffs would make incubi a decent unit.
I find the +1S much more useful. The difference between wounding on 4's instead of 5's and 5's instead of 6's has been the difference between victory and defeat for me.
In my games having +1A or +1S didn't make a huge difference, but a unit of 10 Wyches with 5A base (3+drug+wych cult bonus) not counting the special weapons that multicharges, destroys an enemy unit and then unleashes all the attacks against another target is unbeliavable. At its maximum strenght a unit of 10 Wyches can have more than 100 attacks in a single turn. Hitting on 2s from turn 3 and re-rolling ones with a Succubus nearby.
The 3CPs tax of the Strife stratagem is high but with 14+ CPs available it's not a real problem.
Alternatively I give them +1S using the drug. I usually play with 3x10 Wyches and 6+ wych cult units in total so 2 of those 10 man squads will get the best drug. +1S is useless on Reavers and usually on Succubus as well. It's a very effective buff to Hellions, especially large squads that also benefit from the morale bonus, but I don't field them very often.
Cursed Blade dedicated stratagem, trait and relic are not amazing, maybe the archite glaive could be nice if the model is killed by an enemy HQ but I have no experience with that relic. I love the Blood Dancer trait on Lelith: she has 6A hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s; combined with her trait it means an average of 10 hits at S4 (with the drug), AP-4, re-rolling wounds against characters.
I like the Cursed Blade buff but IMHO the wych cult of Strife bonuses and combos are amazing, definitely my favorite obsession for a battallion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 16:33:01
Blackie wrote: In my games having +1A or +1S didn't make a huge difference, but a unit of 10 Wyches with 5A base (3+drug+wych cult bonus) not counting the special weapons that multicharges, destroys an enemy unit and then unleashes all the attacks against another target is unbeliavable. At its maximum strenght a unit of 10 Wyches can have more than 100 attacks in a single turn. Hitting on 2s from turn 3 and re-rolling ones with a Succubus nearby.
The 3CPs tax of the Strife stratagem is high but with 14+ CPs available it's not a real problem.
Alternatively I give them +1S using the drug. I usually play with 3x10 Wyches and 6+ wych cult units in total so 2 of those 10 man squads will get the best drug. +1S is useless on Reavers and usually on Succubus as well. It's a very effective buff to Hellions, especially large squads that also benefit from the morale bonus, but I don't field them very often.
Cursed Blade dedicated stratagem, trait and relic are not amazing, maybe the archite glaive could be nice if the model is killed by an enemy HQ but I have no experience with that relic. I love the Blood Dancer trait on Lelith: she has 6A hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s; combined with her trait it means an average of 10 hits at S4 (with the drug), AP-4, re-rolling wounds against characters.
I like the Cursed Blade buff but IMHO the wych cult of Strife bonuses and combos are amazing, definitely my favorite obsession for a battallion.
I think the two choices depend more on other wych cult units. Ultimately +1S and +1A result in the same statistics for anything they are fighting with Toughness 3-5 (most other infantry). The two buffs have a big effect on other units. Reavers bladevanes do not benefit from the +1S, making the cursed blade trait somewhat of a waste on reavers. On hellions +1S is pretty amazing as it put them to S5 when they attack, S6 if you take the +1S combat drugs. S6 is a nice break point in tournaments as against T3 models your wounding on 2s, and if you run into T5 models your wounding on 3s.
Shredders are great, this edition hordes of basic units are a large part of the game. Splinter rifles ironically are not so great against hordes of T2 or T3 models. Yes kabalite warriors are 6pts a model, but when shooting 4 of them(the fifth is shooting a blaster at something out of a venom...) at IG infantry, and you kill on average about 1-2 in rapidfire range, you have a problem.
The more I look at units the more I think Obsidian rose/Cult of strife is a powerful combo. 18" Shredders, 24" blasters, 30" splinter rifles(15" rapid fire..) is quite powerful. The ability to start putting on damage to units from a greater range, then get cult of strife units charging into multiple units increases your chance to kill one and activate attack again on the other.
Don't forget Cursed Blade has two other advantages that make it the superior choice for Wyches & Hellions compared to Strife:
- The +1 strength is for all rounds of combat, rather than just one involving a charge
- The morale check thing which is excellent for units of more than minimum size
I will grant you it's crap for Reavers, but I'd rather them be Red Grief anyway.
How big was the tournaments? I mean without knowing the rules set, size, etc... its hard to see if he actually did well, he took 3rd, 3rd out of 9? or 90? Did they have bonus points for killing full units? etc...
Amishprn86 wrote: How big was the tournaments? I mean without knowing the rules set, size, etc... its hard to see if he actually did well, he took 3rd, 3rd out of 9? or 90? Did they have bonus points for killing full units? etc...
Looks like there were 14 players at both, according to Best Coast.
Amishprn86 wrote: How big was the tournaments? I mean without knowing the rules set, size, etc... its hard to see if he actually did well, he took 3rd, 3rd out of 9? or 90? Did they have bonus points for killing full units? etc...
Looks like there were 14 players at both, according to Best Coast.
Thats very small, and we dont know the mission types either. Looking at Tournament list are very fun and i do it too, i just dont want to put any merit into them until i see all the details.
Tho, with that said, Grots are very good and i can see Grots and Ravagers getting a points increase in the next Faq/CA dates.
Anyway, I thought I'd share my first impression of DE and this army:
- I really felt the lack of long-range firepower, especially with Scourges not being able to deploy until turn 2. Unfortunately, I don't own much more in the way of long-range stuff.
- I think I deployed my stuff too far back. I was trying to use cover as much as possible, not realising that most of the nid guns were long-range, and the Hive Tyrant and Biovores don't need LoS (it's been ages since I last played nids). It meant that my Warriors weren't in range of a lot of stuff on turn 1.
- Whilst I messed up a bit with them, Mandrakes seem really good. I quite liked them as an escort for my HQ. Shame that HQ won't see play again.
- Incubi, on the other hand, failed to impress. Their melee damage seems barely better than Mandrakes, and they lack the shooting, deep strike, -1 to hit, and 5++ of such. I took them because I wanted to try a pure Kabal list (I'm still learning all the rules so I didn't want to complicate things too much), and wanted some melee in it. However, I really can't see any reason to take them over either Mandrakes or melee units in other factions. Especially given their reliance on transports.
- Using melee units in transports felt very awkward.
- For anyone who says Poison Tongue Warriors are bad in combat . . . they're completely right. Let's just say I don't think I'll bother with Agonisers on Warrior squads in future.
- Actually, on the subject of Warriors, I found them thoroughly unimpressive - even taking into account their low cost. It seems like they might as well be 1 Blaster and 4 balloons, for all the good their splinter fire did me.
- I found Shredders to be unimpressive, to say the least. Even against gaunts, they barely did anything, and they bounced off the Neurothrope completely. Definitely won't take them again.
- The Djin Blade was okay, thohgh I don't think it performed significantly better than a regular Huskblade. Not bad or anything, but I don't think I'd have it as my primary relic, if you see what I mean.
- I only got to fire the Soul Seeker a couple of times. First time it killed a gaunt or two, second time it bounced off the Hive Tyrant, so not a great first run for it. I'd like to try it again though, before giving up on it entirely.
- Rolling a 1 for my Warlord Archon on his first Shadowfield save was depressing, to say the least (he was torn apart by genestealers, which I suppose is slightly fitting given that his model got irreparably broken during the game). I'm now seriously considering running Flayed Skull, if only for the Obsidian Veil.
- On that note, Poison Tongue proved thoroughly unimpressive. The rerolls in melee and for disembarked Warriors did virtually nothing. The Venoms got slightly more use out of them, but still very little. I might give Poison Tongue another chance, but I'm definitely considering alternatives now. Flayed Skull in particular seems like a far superior choice.
Good insights. Some things dont match to my experiences though.
- I dont agree with any range issues for the army. Their primary guns are 36" mounted on vehicles that can move 14" and shoot at full effect. There shouldn't be anything you cant reach.
- deploying back seems fine. You should outshoot a nid list so force them to come to you.
-nothing wrong with melee units in transports. Raiders are surprisingly tough to kill. Can get them across the board unmolested. Then transport charges in and takes overwatch for them.
- kabal warriors shouldn't be in combat. I wouldn't bother with agonisers.
-i haven't had an issue with shredders. They are the best anti horse available. Those scourges should kill 9 or 10 gaunts. Neurothropes with 3++ aren't their best target tbh.
-archons have a habit of losing their field super early. Sometimes they tank plenty tho.
I was literally thinking of "How good would 3 Ravagers and 3 Fire Prisms be, especially with Warlock/Farseer for Guide/Doom/Jinx?" and even was talking about it with someone today.
I disagree. Our transports used to benefit melee units, now they do nothing for them. In order to charge, we basically have to put a juicy target right in front our opponents and hope they choose to ignore it.
-archons have a habit of losing their field super early. Sometimes they tank plenty tho.
Nothing to do with tactics, but I really, really hate Shadowfields. I find it incredibly annoying that we're no longer allowed the option of a Clone Field instead.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/18 15:37:57
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Bharring wrote: Melee units still get +3" of movement by disembarking, added durability, and faster redeployment on prior turns.
So does every other transport in the game.
Why do we even bother making ours open topped? So that our 1 ranged unit can shoot out of them? Whoop-de-do.
And apparently cutting off their top and stripping their armour doesn't even make them fast, since Raiders are actually slower than the more heavily-armoured Eldar tanks.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I don't think winning an 8 man tournement is worth crowing about too much.
Without any additional info that's kind of speculative though. I have been to 32 player events where 90% of the field were seals and I have also been to a few 6 person 3 game RTT's where every player that attended was a nail chewer. 32 person event was less valuable as a data point since first game can see two sharks play to a draw and eliminate themselves while a 3rd clubs a seal and coasts all day. Without missions or scoring rubrics any of these results are hard to judge as well. It's still nice to see DE actually attending evens let alone placing at the top regardless of details.
Bharring wrote: Melee units still get +3" of movement by disembarking, added durability, and faster redeployment on prior turns.
So does every other transport in the game.
Why do we even bother making ours open topped? So that our 1 ranged unit can shoot out of them? Whoop-de-do.
And apparently cutting off their top and stripping their armour doesn't even make them fast, since Raiders are actually slower than the more heavily-armoured Eldar tanks.
What is the point in rehashing the same complaints over and over? Our transports are very durable and useful for their cost. I assume your comparing raiders to serpents now? The WS is clearly busted and possibly the most annoying vehicle in the game to face, acting like it's the standard for which all other transports should be measured by is useless.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/18 17:53:19
What is the point in rehashing the same complaints over and over?
Because people keep repeating the same, easily-disproved nonsense over and over.
Red Corsair wrote: Our transports are very durable and useful for their cost.
Because who cares whether they fit the fluff, so long as they're cheap.
Red Corsair wrote: I assume your comparing raiders to serpents now? The WS is clearly busted and possibly the most annoying vehicle in the game to face, acting like it's the standard for which all other transports should be measured by is useless.
Okay, fine. Which Eldar tank would you prefer I compared the Raider's movement with?
The Falcon? The Night Spinner? The Fire Prism? Every single one of them is faster than a Raider.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
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