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It sounds like you need more opponents to play, and get other experiences. No game outside of Apocalypse should take more than 3 hours, and even that's pushing it. You may also want to learn more about your list, and its strengths and weaknesses. I am stuck on one build, due to my lack of models. So I had to learn how to best use it in different situations, instead of trying the same thing over and over expecting different results.

Of course, you could also take a break from the game, there is nothing wrong with doing that.

fe40k wrote:
40k isn't worth playing - it's just not. GW hasn't demonstrated that they're capable of balancing anything, let alone making armies roughly equal in some sort of strength; there will be armies that just destroy other armies, and there won't be much you can do about it.

I couldn't agree less with this. Sure, there will always be some units or compositions that are highly overpowered, but right now I feel like I can take anything from the army list of any of the factions I play (AdMech, all 3 Eldar factions, and Khorne) and feel like I can have a reasonably fun casual game with them. Maybe it's the group I play with, maybe it's just the environment, whatever, but I'm enjoying it quite a bit. I think that the OP's concerns likely lay with the types of gamer he's playing (are they imbalanced b/c one player is a WAAC/TFG?), not the game.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


1. Leverage "reserves." This will help you avoid getting blasted off the table turn 1. The most successful lists place their critical units either out of line of sight or off the table to start.

Or put valuable units in rhinos, people. I know it's popular to hate on transports, but they can work.

Valuable units can't ride in rhinos unless you're CSM lol

 Kroem wrote:
Sorry to hear you're having a rough time of it old bean, just remember it's only a bit of fun!

My recommendation is to implement a handicap system, every time someone wins they have 50 points less to spend in the next game.
Things will soon start getting closer and challenging for both sides!

Cheers
Kroem

I'm with this guy. If you've got a regular opponent you're on good terms with, presumably he wants to keep playing, shouldn't be too hard to make such arrangements. Sorry to hear about the frustrations, I have some sympathy as I used to play 5th or 6th Ed, back before Marines could shoot/move in the same turn, and his Eldar would just annihilate me every game. I think out of 10 I had one draw, the rest I was tabled handily. I am willing to admit I'm not the greatest tactician, but it was just a bit absurd. When you spend days of time making mini's and then average 6+ hours a game, losing over and over again seems like a pretty big deal even though it's just a game. Good luck, and I hope you find some way to enjoy things again or another hobby that isn't so frustrating for ya.

 Kroem wrote:
Sorry to hear you're having a rough time of it old bean, just remember it's only a bit of fun!

My recommendation is to implement a handicap system, every time someone wins they have 50 points less to spend in the next game.
Things will soon start getting closer and challenging for both sides!

Cheers
Kroem

This is actually a solid idea - or you could do it in reverse where every game you lose you get 50+ points to spend, starting at 1000 vs 1000. Then when games feel balanced, pause points increases there and enjoy.

I'm thinking this was a possible troll post. Guy made a brand new account to start a thread and then vanished when people asked for details...

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


1. Leverage "reserves." This will help you avoid getting blasted off the table turn 1. The most successful lists place their critical units either out of line of sight or off the table to start.

Or put valuable units in rhinos, people. I know it's popular to hate on transports, but they can work.

Valuable units can't ride in rhinos unless you're CSM lol

Devastators, Sternguard?

Though I will note that anything that can ride in a Rhino can also be Issodonned onto the table.

 mokoshkana wrote:
I'm thinking this was a possible troll post. Guy made a brand new account to start a thread and then vanished when people asked for details...

Im inclined to agree at this point tbh

 mokoshkana wrote:
I'm thinking this was a possible troll post. Guy made a brand new account to start a thread and then vanished when people asked for details...

I can't say that I'm not wondering the same thing.

That aside, though, why not give AoS a try? As much as people bash it, it's really not a bad game at all. It's not as complex as WFB or 40K, but that relative ease of play can be a very good thing at times. It's simple to pick up and learn but still requires strategy. You can throw together your favorite units from across four grand alliances (as long as they are all part of the same grand alliance). Or, you can have a little 40K nostalgia with Warscroll Battalions which grant those units special abilities (similar to 40K 7th Edition Formations). Worth a shot.

SG

 vaklor4 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
I'm thinking this was a possible troll post. Guy made a brand new account to start a thread and then vanished when people asked for details...

Im inclined to agree at this point tbh

Didn't stop the trolls from smelling blood in the water.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
I'm thinking this was a possible troll post. Guy made a brand new account to start a thread and then vanished when people asked for details...

Im inclined to agree at this point tbh

Didn't stop the trolls from smelling blood in the water.

Not sure i understand this comment. Are you calling those of us who responded trolls?

 mrhappyface wrote:
I'm putting my money on OP being an Ork player.

But in seriousness, what is your regular army and what do you regularly play against? There are some match ups this edition that make for very one sided games.

While I had the same impression at first glance, we have an Ork player in our local group who can absolutely stomp any player, any army. He's just that good, but still...it's pretty impressive to watch.

You're right though, matchup is often an issue now. (I say now, when it was an issue in 7th too).

 Marmatag wrote:


Not sure i understand this comment. Are you calling those of us who responded trolls?

Oh god no. Stuff like this:

40k isn't worth playing - it's just not. GW hasn't demonstrated that they're capable of balancing anything

Then Cuck Approved arrived

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Not sure i understand this comment. Are you calling those of us who responded trolls?

Oh god no. Stuff like this:

40k isn't worth playing - it's just not. GW hasn't demonstrated that they're capable of balancing anything

Then Cuck Approved arrived

I giggled way more than im proud to admit the first time I read cuck approved.

Holy . Thanks for the response all, I was just yelling into the void.

To answer a few questions:

-I play Aeldari, although I have some ork sprues I never got around to putting together. I don't, however, own any dark reapers or wraithknights, or bikes. I have avoided buying outright broken things. I have lots of infantry.
-At 2k, I usually run a battalion with guardians or DA as the shooty troops, a farseer, some warlocks or another farseer, some CC aspects (scorpions/banshees), a swooping hawk squad, and a three man war walker squad. I then run a Durkari battalion with Kalibites in a boat, incubi + Drazar in a boat, Archon + 2 snake men in a boat, two more foot slogging warrior groups, and a reaver.
-my opponent brings space marine variants, he's prefers DA primaris, but he uses CSM as well. He's got a few blood angels and SW (<500 each), but I've never seen them hit the table. He runs a bunch of 5 man basic primaris infantry, the named DA librarian, a flag guy that gives rerolls, a lieutenant, and a rhino.
-Obviously, our lists vary, but most games use most, if not all these models.

I’d say before giving up, consider finding some other people to play against.

A lot of people are saying this, and I'm ready to give it a try.

You wouldn't go to the same pizza hut over and over again that sucked and then say THATS IT I GIVE UP ON PIZZA.

This here is amazing.

My recommendation is to implement a handicap system, every time someone wins they have 50 points less to spend in the next game.
Things will soon start getting closer and challenging for both sides!

This I also like - I'll add it to my list of things to try out.

deciding what it should be able to do and should play like, then discovering the berk who wrote the rules didn't agree and trying to do that is basically suicide.

I suspect this might be, at least in part, some of my issue. I know Aeldari soup is good, but it's not very palpable to my tastes.

Ask yourself these two questions, are you bringing a knife to a gun fight or is your opponent bringing a gun to a knife fight. This matters a lot. Then ask this about the current units/armies you own. 'Am I able to bring a gun to a gun fight?'

A lot of you are asking this, and to be frank, I'm starting to think this may be part of the issue. See above for a general list of things that hit the table.

If he does have the money to switch armies or add a new one, then go for it! But, for many, it's just not that easy.

I have tried this idea, from Aeldari to Durkari, to a soup of the pair.

Make sure you're playing matched play rules. And open war cards can be fun, but they do not make a balanced game, or a remotely close to balanced game. Try the missions in chapter approved, with progressive scoring. My personal favorites are the ITC champions missions - they're used in tournaments but don't let this dissuade you from trying them - they are good for a balanced 40k experience, and you don't need to be a die hard competitive player to enjoy progressive scoring & secondary objectives. They also add a dimension to the game where you can score points without actually annihilating the opponent, so if you're outgunned you can still win by controlling the map and avoiding combat.

Other things that can help:

1. Leverage "reserves." This will help you avoid getting blasted off the table turn 1. The most successful lists place their critical units either out of line of sight or off the table to start.

2. Use a ton of terrain. Shooting is SO STRONG in this edition that you absolutely must have LOS blockers in the middle of the table, and on the sides at the very least. Check out competitive tables as a starting point, the game should feature a significant amount of this.

3. Don't play the frustrating armies. If you're like me and you only have 1-2 days a week to play because of work /family, make them count. Skip games with guys running a ton of Dark Reapers, or guys running a ton of Artillery (guns without needing LOS). These are the two biggest problems in 40k right now, because they make the game less tactical.

4. Be up front that you're looking for a casual game.

5. Accept that losses can be reduced to poor decision making on your part. Trace back why you are losing specific games and hold yourself accountable for it. Losing is frustrating but you learn more from defeat than you do from victory.

Open war cards are why I one that one game. I use reserves, many of my units deep strike, or outflank. Our terrain is 6" or more apart, with lots of windows, however, we have started adding small boxes to break it up a bit. I don't get lots of choice in oppenets army, altough I'm thinking about going to the local FLGS instead of garage hammer, so this could be useful shortly. Always. If I can trace back, I mostly trace back to the opponent getting a ton of really lucky rolls, or a unit matchup I miscalculated.

I'd like to add that sitting down and actually discussing the game you just played, the army both of you played, and the codices in general could go a LONG way.

This idea also would be good, but by that point, his attitude and my extreme irritation make this difficult.

I'm thinking this was a possible troll post. Guy made a brand new account to start a thread and then vanished when people asked for details...

The internet will still be there when I get back

I giggled way more than im proud to admit the first time I read cuck approved.

Me too.

How about giving us a detailed batrep after your next game? The army you have shouldn't be an auto-lose against Primaris: I've seen similar lists to yours that have dominated games.

I hope you don't allow him to mix the CSM into his soup. That would violate battle forged rules. Try using some scenerios from the bigger conventions like ITC or Adepticon and see what rules they are modifying.

Yeah, I think you need to expand your horizons and play with a more diverse group of people. Just avoid people like me and my group of miscreants (spreadsheeting wargame nuts) and you should be able to ease your way into enjoyable wargaming.

This of course could be more difficult if you live in an area that is less prolific as far as gaming goes. I live in Southern California, so I have plenty of choices and plenty of people to play with.

40k in the current iteration generally requires an analysis of what models in your selected range both inflict the most damage per point and absorb a decent amount of damage per point spent and putting together a list that combines whatever models give you highly efficient offensive output with a capability to complete the mission you are building to achieve (say, for instance, ITC, for which you try to avoid giving your opponent as many secondaries as possible while looking to maintain maneuverability to claim objectives and control territory). This necessarily means that your favorite models will most likely not line up to what will get you results in game, and accepting this is necessary to see past your despair and claim responsibility for your failure to achieve victory. This may seem harsh, but claiming responsibility for your own failure is ultimately the most empowering thing you can do because it gives you the power to change your circumstances and get what you want.

Aeldari losing against Primaris almost 100% seems like it's based on player tactics. In raw numbers, you have the advantage. So...I wouldn't say git gud. I'd just say learn some new tactics.

There is definitely a learning curve to this game.

Unless the people you are playing with are running hyper competitive armies, the reason you are losing is likely because you are making tactical mistakes. That's fine, though, because that's one of the best ways to learn.

Other ways to learn are to watch battle reports, tournament streams, and read about tactics.

Your lists may also be sub par, so learn from units that aren't working and change things up. All that being said, I think the attitude of "I don't, however, own any dark reapers or wraithknights, or bikes. I have avoided buying outright broken things" is a bit silly. None of those units are so broken that just having a few of them in your army makes you a bad person. If you are losing a lot, try making changes until you start winning. If you start winning so much that other people aren't having fun, either help them figure out how to be better (thus making the games better for everyone), or tweak your list to something else that you find enjoyable but is tactically different. Mixing in other factions seems like a good way to do this, and I for one find playing the same list over and over fairly boring anyway.

jcd386 wrote:
There is definitely a learning curve to this game.

Unless the people you are playing with are running hyper competitive armies, the reason you are losing is likely because you are making tactical mistakes. That's fine, though, because that's one of the best ways to learn.

Other ways to learn are to watch battle reports, tournament streams, and read about tactics.

Your lists may also be sub par, so learn from units that aren't working and change things up. All that being said, I think the attitude of "I don't, however, own any dark reapers or wraithknights, or bikes. I have avoided buying outright broken things" is a bit silly. None of those units are so broken that just having a few of them in your army makes you a bad person. If you are losing a lot, try making changes until you start winning. If you start winning so much that other people aren't having fun, either help them figure out how to be better (thus making the games better for everyone), or tweak your list to something else that you find enjoyable but is tactically different. Mixing in other factions seems like a good way to do this, and I for one find playing the same list over and over fairly boring anyway.

This right here. 5 Dark reapers are not broken. 30 dark reapers in 3 man squads for the launcher is. And eldar bikes are not broken this edition, feel free to grab some, they are fun.

What craftworld are you running? I run Beil-tan, do not underestimate the power of 3 war walkers with eldar missile launchers getting a free, auto casting can't be denied guide on them every turn, they become beasts against a lot of things. Dire avengers are cool too, I use 3 squads of 10 and they will die but they don't suck. Plus again Beil-tan gives them rerolls. I like rerolls lol.

Having said all this, your playing eldar. They are less forgiving when you make a mistake. But if you get really good with them you will run circles around marines.

You said he plays marines. Is he playing dark angels with hellblasters for crazy plasma shenanigans with an ancient for fire again on a 4+ and an apothecary to get back up with an hq that gives them all 4++ invulnerable save? If so that's a hard nut to Crack, the moment he gets in range he can wipe your avengers and guardIan's out without an issue. I would look at getting some support weapons, probably shadow weavers. They would give you 3d6 shots at 48" with no Los needed at str 6, giving you massive range and the ability to not care about his stuff like invulnerable saves. Just force wounds to cause armor saves. Then use the guardians as a bubble around the weapons to stop anything from "deep striking in" and getting near the weapons. Embrace your options, you will not regret it!

I have played plenty of games that came right down to the last roll this edition.

If you play elder, or any army really, and not taking the good units, you are handicapping yourself, it sound like you are taking the mostly bad units too.

How many games have you played?

I really like the handicap suggestion (winner takes X% fewer points next game) and the swap armies suggestion, so you can see what his dudes are like and perhaps be better prepared for the next game when you take your Eldar back to the table.

Plus, fercryinoutloud, take some good units!

My first army when I started 40k in 5th was Eldar and I lost every game for months. The fragility of the army, the reliance on mobility and my inexperience compared to friends who had been playing for years caused everything to just fall apart by turn 3. I felt how you did, frustrated, my buds did try to help with some coaching etc but I was just not having fun.

I decided to switch to Necrons and play a tough, shooty army with some cool shenanigans and started doing better and then winning. A tougher and what i thought was a cool though less interesting army allowed me to learn the rules and get a feel for the game and I went on to CSM, then nids, Harlies and now 1k sons.

I still love my Elder army which is Guardian, farseer, aspect heavy and do a lot better with them now. I love my necs but have no real interest in playing them now but they were a good training army. I also got the Necrons and most of the nids second hand.

This of course could be more difficult if you live in an area that is less prolific as far as gaming goes

Yes, it is. nearest store is a good hour drive out, and only does 40k once a week, naturally a day I work all day. I'v e got some days off coming up, so I may go over there anyway.

Aeldari losing against Primaris almost 100% seems like it's based on player tactics. In raw numbers, you have the advantage. So...I wouldn't say git gud. I'd just say learn some new tactics.

I have tried many, many tatics. Fast, shooty, meleey, tough, and all kinds of combos of those traits. I've been playing since the end of 6th, and I've always done poorly. Now it's a new, theoretically better, edition, so I can't even blame that anymore. The only real difference I've seen between editions is I get to surrender faster. I'm sick of it.

you are making tactical mistakes. That's fine, though, because that's one of the best ways to learn.

That's what I thought several years ago. And here I am, apparently still too gak to win a game.

This right here. 5 Dark reapers are not broken. 30 dark reapers in 3 man squads for the launcher is. And eldar bikes are not broken this edition, feel free to grab some, they are fun.

Or maybe I should just stop being a nice person and get 30 DR, and dominate the only game I'll get to try with them. Then they would be house ruled out of existence as soon as I bring them, so why bother wasting so much cash? I run Uthwe, because the FNP helps.

Is he playing dark angels with hellblasters for crazy plasma shenanigans with an ancient for fire again on a 4+ and an apothecary to get back up with an hq that gives them all 4++ invulnerable save?

Something along those lines, yes. I don't have much of his stuff memorized. One of the guys has a crazy banner that causes rerolls as well. He also makes use of some stratagem that allows him to Tau my deep striking units.


I'm just going to shelve the lot of it for now. Thanks for all your ideas guys, I'll write them down for next time I give 40k a try.

So that's a no on getting a batrep of your next game? Seriously, a battle report could really help us pin down what's going wrong in your games, it could be poor tactics, unbalanced lists or even something as simple as either you or your opponent misinterpreting some rules leading to some rather one sided battles.

I was sure I posted in this topic but the internet seems to have eaten it.

I'm currently a bit of a nightmare for my group (in my own humble opinion) because out of everyone in it I play the most competitive lists while not resorting to spam or netlisting. I'm also probably the most experienced having been playing consistantly since 2nd edition and only taking breaks during 3rd and 7th edition.

A lot of it comes from my list building I think. Back when I younger, me and my flatmate used to sit and brainstorm lists. Finding the most solid core, building around it and shaving off points where they needed to be shaved then testing the lists and tweaking things to suit until the list we wanted to write was optimised to do what we wanted it to do washow we spent a lot of our time. We still do it whenever we're bored. We'll shoot lists back and forth on Whatsapp and suggest changes or point out weaknesses the other might have missed. So yeah, learn to look at your lists critically and think about stuff like can you drop a guardian or two to get a better gun on a war walker? Do you really need jetbikes AND swooping hawks or are their intended roles too similar?

That last part leads into the next which is know what units do what job and assign them properly. Don't waste time firing shuriken catapults at a Leman Russ. People love to say "mee mee mee lasguns can kill a land raider mee mee mee" but it's only true in a world where you can afford to waste lile 500 lasgun shots on a land raider which is not the world we live in. Also, target priority is a thing. Knowing what the enemy can do is helpful because it means you know what to kill first. Shooting up a unit of fire warriors to kill his fireblade warlord isn't going to help much in the early game if riptides and ghostkeels are shooting up your stuff and you've lost your heavy hitters early because you were busy using plasma guns to kill plebby troop guys.

Also, always use the tactical objective cards.

It definitely sounds like there's a lot of mistakes being made in the game that could cause you to consecutively lose a game. Chances are, your opponents are doing three things differently from you that's giving them a big advantage:

#1 - They know their own army better than you do.
#2 - They know your army better than you do.
#3 - They have executed better plans than you have.

The first two are really hard to change without pretty much repeating the "get good" mantra. I'm pretty sure that's the case, because if they're consistently "going Tau" on your Deep Strikers, it's because you're not being careful to stay outside of 12 inches of their units. If you can force yourself to be more cognizant of these things, you got to be hard on yourself. It effectively boils down to trying to go slow on a game and really think hard through each decision. Tell your friends that you're trying to improve and you want their help too in what they think you should do.

The last one involves trying to anticipate your opponent's strategies and developing a plan that fights them on their weaknesses, rather than their strengths. It's not as simple as "do close combat" or "do shooty" or "do tough". Say to yourself "okay, turn 1 they do this, so I'm going to do this. Turn 2 they do this, so I'm going to do this". The best advice I ever saw for games was through a Magic article where he said you need two plans; 1) plan for how to win, 2) plan for how to not lose. You need both.

If you posted your army list people could probably tell you if something is horribly wrong.