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SemperMortis wrote:


So that stratagem makes Trukk boyz good if you take them with a Battlewagon full of boyz and then mob them up. So you gain better movement and a unit of 30 boyz (including 2 nobz) showing up undamaged for the low low cost of......440pts. 440pts and 2CP? I can't remember because I never use it because it is so terrible. What else could I do with 440pts...Ohh yeah, I could take 60 boyz and a Weirdboy and have 20pts left over. yeah that sounds better then 440pts for HALF the boyz as well as a useless trukk whose only purpose now is to eat overwatch and a Battlewagon which while effective in CC, isn't nearly as effective as another MOB of boyz against MOST targets.

1 CP for Mob Up.

Trukks and Jump means I you can get 90 in 2 turns instead of 60 - with 30 of those way closer than a normal jump. I'll record a game when I get a chance.

But they're trukk boyz! Why should they get out of their trukks?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


So that stratagem makes Trukk boyz good if you take them with a Battlewagon full of boyz and then mob them up. So you gain better movement and a unit of 30 boyz (including 2 nobz) showing up undamaged for the low low cost of......440pts. 440pts and 2CP? I can't remember because I never use it because it is so terrible. What else could I do with 440pts...Ohh yeah, I could take 60 boyz and a Weirdboy and have 20pts left over. yeah that sounds better then 440pts for HALF the boyz as well as a useless trukk whose only purpose now is to eat overwatch and a Battlewagon which while effective in CC, isn't nearly as effective as another MOB of boyz against MOST targets.

1 CP for Mob Up.

Trukks and Jump means I you can get 90 in 2 turns instead of 60 - with 30 of those way closer than a normal jump. I'll record a game when I get a chance.

So 440pts for 30 Boyz and two useless vehicles (the wagon does ok but not worth its points at all) and then 360pts for another 60 Boyz and 60pts for a weirdboy. So your strategy can deliver 90 Boyz in 2 turns at the low low cost of 860pts.

Prior to this FAQ I could deliver 30 Boyz and almost 70 Kommandos 1st turn for that same price. Or after that I could just deliver 90 boyz by turn 3 (1 turn later then your strategy) for 600pts (1 weirdboy and 90 boyz)

Trukk Boyz and Wagon boyz DONT WORK because the transports are too expensive and too fragile and too useless after they drop off their passengers.

*shrug* I think you're wrong on their utility. And the calculus is only going to get more steep. DW is coming with potential charge eliminating frag cannons and most of the T'au at the next GT were T'au Sept - a few with multiple SMS/HBC Riptides.

Not to mention most people don't have the resources for 90 stormboyz/kommandos.

Trukks block overwatch, get you closer, and kill a couple things while doing it. They're quite durable - especially with support. 21 LC shots score ~18 wounds when factoring in ramshackle & KFF. So, almost two Trukks die to a number of shots that would kill almost 3 predators. And you have a BW on top. And for me, dreadnoughts or a 'naut. Oh I know. Those are "bad", too. But they're there to take heat and they do it well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
*shrug* I think you're wrong on their utility. And the calculus is only going to get more steep. DW is coming with potential charge eliminating frag cannons and most of the T'au at the next GT were T'au Sept - a few with multiple SMS/HBC Riptides.

Not to mention most people don't have the resources for 90 stormboyz/kommandos.

Trukks block overwatch, get you closer, and kill a couple things while doing it. They're quite durable - especially with support. 21 LC shots score ~18 wounds when factoring in ramshackle & KFF. So, almost two Trukks die to a number of shots that would kill almost 3 predators. And you have a BW on top. And for me, dreadnoughts or a 'naut. Oh I know. Those are "bad", too. But they're there to take heat and they do it well.

21 LC shots hit 14 times, wound 9-10 times and ignore the armor save so they require that KFF which (again you keep moving the goal posts), adds another 101pts to the cost (Big Mek On Bike +KFF). BUT that saves 3 shots, so now its 6 to 7 going through. Ramshackle reduces 1 to 1dmg. So its 5-6 x 3.5 which is 17.5-21 + 1 so 18.5-22dmg on AVERAGE. Not factoring in the Sergeant nor the cherub which they will all have. Last time I checked a Trukk has 10 wounds so you have EASILY killed 1 trukk and reduced that BW by 8.5-12 dmg which knocks it down to its 2nd wound profile so its now slower, weaker and has D6 CC attacks instead of 6. So lets tally that up a bit. Lets say you were facing 3 units of Devs and 2 Las Preds, this is still CHEAPER mind you then the 90 boyz, 1 trukk, 1 wagon, 1 weirdboy and 1 KFF Big Mek on bike you are recommending So i can EASILY afford 2 Scout squads to act as Screens for my long range Lascannons. So turn 1 I pop 3 Cherubs and use the sergeants SIGNUM on 3 lascannons. So round 1 I get 23 shots, 20 hitting on 3s and 3hitting on 2s. So about 16 hits, 11-12 wounds, minus the 5+++ saves makes it 7-8 Wounds. 1 will be saved on average by the Ramshackle so 6-7 wounds +1dmg. That is 21-24.5dmg. So turn 1 trukk is dead, stranding those 10 Boyz, the battlewagon is reduced GREATLY and now is moving slower and only S6 D6 attacks in CC. Orkz jump 30 Boyz into range of my scouts, you charge, most likely fail (less then 50% chance) lose 1 model to overwatch. Turn 2, the Lascannons FINISH OFF the Battlewagon (which was down to less then 6 wounds using 1 Predator annihilator) and start using their weapons on the jumped squad as well as the tanks which will start taking wounds off of it easily, the scout squads go rapid fire on the boyz as well So 3 Dev squads and 1 predator annihilator + 2 5 man scout squads = 13 bolters, 1 storm bolter and 16 lascannon shots.....Assuming 10 of the bolters (scouts) are in double tap range and that nobody else is we have 25 S4 shots and 16 S9 shots. They won't be in range of the KFF so that means 8ish wounds from bolters and 10ish from lascannons which brings the boyz down to 11 models with a -17 to 18 leadership modifier....they are almost assuredly destroyed. Turn 2 for orkz you move everyone forward, jump another unit of boyz and maybe get some pot shots out of your assault weapons...ohh did you want to include a Warboss to give them the ability to charge after advancing? No? ok so they aren't charging, that 1 unit that jumped can try, but again they have a less then 50% chance.

SO after 2 game turns your strategy has maybe inflicted some wounds on scouts but has lost both its vehicles and a 30 boy unit. and keep in mind this is going on averages, so I am not saying that you won't get insanely lucky rolls sometime, but that ON AVERAGE this will fail horribly.

Want me to tell you why this fails so horribly? Because you are spending the better part of 270pts on 2 transports. That more than anything else is why this fails. Last edition that same trick could have been done using JUST Trukkz for the cost of 90pts (Trukkz were 30ish pts) So to get the same Bang for your buck in transports your spending 3x as many points. Or if you REALY wanted to spend 270pts on transports, last edition you could have done so and transported about 108boyz using 9 Trukkz for the same price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Durability isn't as important as you make it seem for trukkz. Those Preds are also dropping vehicles from turn 1 while the trukkz can't do anything except eat overwatch or tie a unit up in CC for a turn after they drop their cargo off.

As for the walkers, yes they are absolutely garbage this edition, giant, slow walkers with no dakka and only make their points back when they get into CC (Kanz don't even do it there), and once they do, they suffer because they don't have an invuln at all and rely on Toughness value to save them because most Anti-tank weapons eat through their 3+ saves as easily as they would a SM tactical.

Great googly moogly.

I love how the Orks just stood there and got shot. And, as I said before I take a 'naut or dreadnoughts to draw AT fire. If you're spending two turns with all your AT on the trukks you might have a bad time.

The point on the number of lascannons is that it takes a LOT of them. A number that barely any list has.

Reviewing some lists from the London GT for LC count :
6,3,1,4, 9, 3, 4, 4, 12 (backed up by RG agressors - I'd like to be in transports for those), 7, 12, 4

Almost no one is taking massive amounts of anti-tank. The only notable exception is triple shadowsword lists.

Lascannon shows up 219 times
Basilisk 34
Manticore 19
Plasma Gun 103
Plasma Incinerator 27
Missile Launcher 44
Battle Cannon 54

Heavy Bolter 294
Assault Cannon 48
Hurricane Bolter 145 (and there are a gak ton of these and mortars when you factor in quantity)
Mortar 159
Heavy / Burst Cannon 91
Smart Missile System 71
PGC 28
Boltstorm Gauntlets 32

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Great googly moogly.

I love how the Orks just stood there and got shot. And, as I said before I take a 'naut or dreadnoughts to draw AT fire. If you're spending two turns with all your AT on the trukks you might have a bad time.

The point on the number of lascannons is that it takes a LOT of them. A number that barely any list has.

Reviewing some lists from the London GT for LC count :
6,3,1,4, 9, 3, 4, 4, 12 (backed up by RG agressors - I'd like to be in transports for those), 7, 12, 4

Almost no one is taking massive amounts of anti-tank. The only notable exception is triple shadowsword lists.

Lascannon shows up 219 times
Basilisk 34
Manticore 19
Plasma Gun 103
Plasma Incinerator 27
Missile Launcher 44
Battle Cannon 54

Heavy Bolter 294
Assault Cannon 48
Hurricane Bolter 145 (and there are a gak ton of these and mortars when you factor in quantity)
Mortar 159
Heavy / Burst Cannon 91
Smart Missile System 71
PGC 28
Boltstorm Gauntlets 32

This is what is called Moving the Goal posts, something you have done several times now. If you want to include Nauts and dreads into the equation that gives me several hundred more points to work with. Most lists don't SPAM lascannons because why should they when plasma is so prevalent and useful. And I would ALWAYS shoot transports first because boyz are as good at CC as a Naut. And a Naut only takes 1 turn to kill with dedicated anti-tank fire from lascannons or equivalents. The fact is, no matter how many times you move those goal posts, that Trukkz and Wagonz SUCK at being transports right now. And it is easy to see simply because they cost more then the units they are supposed to transport.

No, I'm not moving goal posts. I'm giving context and it's been mentioned in many posts already.

A naut under KFF is considerably difficult to bring down.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No, I'm not moving goal posts. I'm giving context and it's been mentioned in many posts already.

A naut under KFF is considerably difficult to bring down.

33% to be exact, and at the cost of 100pts or so.

So again, if you want to play this scenario out in real life, just go look at how many competitive armies bring trukkz and battlewagons as transports. The answer is not surprising at all, the most you see trukkz is as a expensive buff to Tankbusta survivability, NOT as a transport for Trukk Boyz.

And yes you are in fact moving the goal posts, you started by saying that trukk boyz and wagon boyz were good, I showed you they weren't. You came back with showing how a plethora of lascannons weren't that effective against them, i showed you the opposite was true. You came back with dreadz and nauts are great for distracting against Lascannons, I then showed you how yet again you moved the goal posts and how they were utter crap still.

You labor under this belief that the Ork index is good, and that the reason these units are bad isn't because they are in fact bad but because people aren't using them right. Nobody thinks trukkz are good, nobody should either. Or do you really believe that a Trukk should cost more then a Rhino, or be so useless as to be able to transport 72pts worth of boyz while that Rhino can transport almost double that in standard Marines without upgrades. The same is true for a Battle Wagon.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No, I'm not moving goal posts. I'm giving context and it's been mentioned in many posts already.

A naut under KFF is considerably difficult to bring down.

33% to be exact, and at the cost of 100pts or so.

So again, if you want to play this scenario out in real life, just go look at how many competitive armies bring trukkz and battlewagons as transports. The answer is not surprising at all, the most you see trukkz is as a expensive buff to Tankbusta survivability, NOT as a transport for Trukk Boyz.

And yes you are in fact moving the goal posts, you started by saying that trukk boyz and wagon boyz were good, I showed you they weren't. You came back with showing how a plethora of lascannons weren't that effective against them, i showed you the opposite was true. You came back with dreadz and nauts are great for distracting against Lascannons, I then showed you how yet again you moved the goal posts and how they were utter crap still.

You labor under this belief that the Ork index is good, and that the reason these units are bad isn't because they are in fact bad but because people aren't using them right. Nobody thinks trukkz are good, nobody should either. Or do you really believe that a Trukk should cost more then a Rhino, or be so useless as to be able to transport 72pts worth of boyz while that Rhino can transport almost double that in standard Marines without upgrades. The same is true for a Battle Wagon.

Wading in here...

I enjoy playing against Orks and face them from time to time. This is the list I run, it features a lot of lascannons.

Orks are the most challenging army for me - moreso than Tyranids. Opponents often bring Trukks with Boys that mob up when they reach my lines. I don't target the Trukks right away, focusing instead on their second wave and any specialists.

It's disastrous when a mob of Boys gets past my screens. I'm a lot less concerned about units arriving from Da Jump, since they have to set up 9 inches away and will only be able to charge my screens. OTOH, models disembark from Trukks anywhere they want and then get to move, which makes it almost certain they are going to get into my lines. Not to mention, if that Trukk charges, it can severely limit the fall back options for my screens. It's very bad when I pop a Trukk full of Boys in close combat, they can easily surround other units, make it impossible to fall back, and take away the space necessary for beatsticks to get into the fight.

I get it, point for point, Trukks look bad on paper, but, tactically, they are a crowbar for peeling apart gunlines. There are usually no good options for Gunlines facing Trukk Boys. Part of why Trukks work is the fact they are stupidly underpowered - there is always a better option to be shooting at, until suddenly there's not and my Gunline is devolving into a fistfight with big infantry squads who have a massive advantage because of board control. Not to mention, the turn after they reach your lines, their buddies are all set up and ready to charge.

That's been my experience with Trukks.

I always have the belief that Orks are bad but because of this Ork playes are good.

I an not deny that I ince beat necrons by charging in a wagon, deploying my 20 boyz, pulling the wagon out then charging my boyz in. While on the other side my trukk hit their flanks with burna boyz.

SemperMortis wrote:
33% to be exact, and at the cost of 100pts or so.

100 points that also covers the trukks and BW.

So again, if you want to play this scenario out in real life, just go look at how many competitive armies bring trukkz and battlewagons as transports.

Yep and i'll be curious to see the results of the upcoming tournament and their matchups.

And yes you are in fact moving the goal posts, you started by saying that trukk boyz and wagon boyz were good, I showed you they weren't. You came back with showing how a plethora of lascannons weren't that effective against them, i showed you the opposite was true. You came back with dreadz and nauts are great for distracting against Lascannons, I then showed you how yet again you moved the goal posts and how they were utter crap still.

You need to go back and reread my posts.

You labor under this belief that the Ork index is good

Never said that.

and that the reason these units are bad isn't because they are in fact bad but because people aren't using them right.

Didn't say that either.

Or do you really believe that a Trukk should cost more then a Rhino, or be so useless as to be able to transport

Or that.

Let me summarize my points:

1) A reduction in price does not change what it does a) Block overwatch b) Get chargers closer that deepstrike 2) A reduction in price will not drastically change lists b) 60 points minimum, before guns, will get you and extra 60 points in your list for 3 trukks 3) Perception of it's durability is couched in it's comparison to rhinos, which is mostly irrelevant, because a) The weapons that scare it wound the Rhino and the Trukk on 3s. b) The Trukk has easy access to the KFF 4) The meta has changed drastically a) Kommandos are no longer an easy go to b) Stormboyz are expensive models c) Da Jump boyz will have much more limited support d) Anti-infantry guns are increasing in use 5) Transporting models cheaper than the transports is irrelevant, because a) It protects a fragile unit that is still good at it's job b) 5 naked marines is a piss poor comparison to what boyz will do in combat 6) To use transports in ANY army requires proper target saturation

1: A) They don't unless they succeed in their charge
B) They get chargers closer then deepstrike....on Turn 3 yeah, but by that point I have already had 2 turns of CC for about half my deep strikers and 1 turn for the rest. So yeah no this isn't a good point at all.

2: A) A reduction in price will in fact drastically change lists, if Trukkz go back down to 30-40ish points they might be feasible in a Trukk boy/Speed Freak list.
B) 60pts minimum is WAY to high, especially since you left off the gun, so you go from 82 to 66, 16pts isn't enough to make me want to even try trukk boyz again.

3: A) Completely ignores Auto-Cannons and Plasma and every other S6 and S7 gun in the game....not a good point
B) It has no access to a KFF, It relies on taking a HQ character on a bike OR inside the trukk, either way you are adding about 100pts to your list to give either 1 trukk or about 3 a 5++ save, not a good point, Which is more durable 3 Trukkz with a 5++ or almost 5 Rhinos?

4: A) They were never an Easy go to, in fact I was one of the few who actually used them a lot. But this new update completely screwed them over why take them when Jumping boyz is now significantly cheaper and as effective?
B) Stormboyz being expensive in $$ is in no way related to how useful they are on the table. Plus we are orkz, kitbashing and kustom jobz is our speciality.
C) This is a very valid point, and completely ruins most lists. YAY for the FAQ right?
D) Yeah...no. Change my mind though, show me the top 5 winners from major events and see how drastically their lists have changed to counter Infantry instead of vehicles, preferably using codex to codex not index to codex.

5: A) It is very relevant. Why spend 180pts on a transport that might get 20 boyz into CC on turn 2-3 when I can spend 180pts on more boyz who will get to CC by turn 2-3? Transports have to have an intrinsic value, a benefit of some kind other then keeping them remotely safe for a few turns.
B) comparing cargo's isn't doing you any favor. 10 Marines fit in a Rhino and are SIGNIFICANTLY better and scarier then 12 Boyz in a Trukk. 10 Marines can lay down a lot of hate.

6: I AGREE!!!! Which is why last edition you saw trukk boy lists with 6-10 Trukkz. Those would cost the player 180-300pts NOW those transports cost upwards of 480-800pts. You can't saturate if you are spending 25%-50% of your points on crappy transports that have little to no function after dropping off their units. mounting JUST boyz, nothing else the difference in price between 10 units of Trukk boys in 7th and 10 units in 8th is 1020pts vs 1520. One is a major investment in points but plenty of room to kustomize and have a secondary threat. the other is almost your entire list and requires you to focus what few points you have left into detachment requirements like HQs and a couple of upgrades for your boyz units, like Powerklaws or maybe one of those Rokkitz you seem to think is worth taking.

Point 5.b is an interesting and correct one. I genuinely use 10 tactical marines in a rhino and end up doing a lot more damage with it. Hell, put in a HQ chap, ec4.. with 9 marines and I'm rerolling all hits in cc. It's not as effective as 30 boyz but basically the same as 12 (20 s4 shots hitting on 3s then 10 s4 cc on 3s from marines is 30 possible attacks which is not worth it so whynwould 12 boyz be worth it?).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A few points to question though.
1.in 7th ed your guys just got out. Now they have to roll to leave if the trukk dies.
2. Trukks explode now on a 6.
3. Open top is different. Before, you guys could die while in the trukk.
4. The boarding ramp and red paint upgrades did make getting into cc easier.
5. You can't just get out of the trukk now, it has to be before the movement phase.

All of these changes create a mess when it comes to comparison of 7ed trukks vs 8th ed.Never mimd the fact orks had 4+ armor saves last edition. However, they are now S4.

 lolman1c wrote:
Point 5.b is an interesting and correct one. I genuinely use 10 tactical marines in a rhino and end up doing a lot more damage with it. Hell, put in a HQ chap, ec4.. with 9 marines and I'm rerolling all hits in cc. It's not as effective as 30 boyz but basically the same as 12 (20 s4 shots hitting on 3s then 10 s4 cc on 3s from marines is 30 possible attacks which is not worth it so whynwould 12 boyz be worth it?).

No buffs on either side:

12 Boyz, PK, 61 points
33 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 3.7 marines
4 * .5 * .833 * .833 = 1.4 marines

10 Marines, Power Sword, 134 points
9 * .666 * .5 * .833 = 2.8 orks
2 * .666 * .5 = 0.7 orks

The marines will certainly be better at shooting, but that's the point of the trukk. For *11* points more I get 12 boyz, a PK, and a trukk for that 10 man marine squad. So in a real comparison (in a vacuum) the marines have no chance. Like...at all...

Trukkboyz are pretty underwhelming now because of ld, pk and the fact that they can no longer kill even remotedly hard targets. They used to be much better in 7-th. Trukk meganobz too. Basically, anything inside a trukk was better in 7-th than it is in 8-th. The only unit that's worth running inside a trukk now are tankbustas.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Point 5.b is an interesting and correct one. I genuinely use 10 tactical marines in a rhino and end up doing a lot more damage with it. Hell, put in a HQ chap, ec4.. with 9 marines and I'm rerolling all hits in cc. It's not as effective as 30 boyz but basically the same as 12 (20 s4 shots hitting on 3s then 10 s4 cc on 3s from marines is 30 possible attacks which is not worth it so whynwould 12 boyz be worth it?).

No buffs on either side:

12 Boyz, PK, 61 points
33 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 3.7 marines
4 * .5 * .833 * .833 = 1.4 marines

10 Marines, Power Sword, 134 points
9 * .666 * .5 * .833 = 2.8 orks
2 * .666 * .5 = 0.7 orks

The marines will certainly be better at shooting, but that's the point of the trukk. For *11* points more I get 12 boyz, a PK, and a trukk for that 10 man marine squad. So in a real comparison (in a vacuum) the marines have no chance. Like...at all...

12 boyz is 72pts not 61 and I am assuming you meant free nob not PK Nob.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Point 5.b is an interesting and correct one. I genuinely use 10 tactical marines in a rhino and end up doing a lot more damage with it. Hell, put in a HQ chap, ec4.. with 9 marines and I'm rerolling all hits in cc. It's not as effective as 30 boyz but basically the same as 12 (20 s4 shots hitting on 3s then 10 s4 cc on 3s from marines is 30 possible attacks which is not worth it so whynwould 12 boyz be worth it?).

No buffs on either side:

12 Boyz, PK, 61 points
33 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 3.7 marines
4 * .5 * .833 * .833 = 1.4 marines

10 Marines, Power Sword, 134 points
9 * .666 * .5 * .833 = 2.8 orks
2 * .666 * .5 = 0.7 orks

The marines will certainly be better at shooting, but that's the point of the trukk. For *11* points more I get 12 boyz, a PK, and a trukk for that 10 man marine squad. So in a real comparison (in a vacuum) the marines have no chance. Like...at all...

12 boyz is 72pts not 61 and I am assuming you meant free nob not PK Nob.

Yup, sorry - hand went awol there. Still, it's not terribly far.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Point 5.b is an interesting and correct one. I genuinely use 10 tactical marines in a rhino and end up doing a lot more damage with it. Hell, put in a HQ chap, ec4.. with 9 marines and I'm rerolling all hits in cc. It's not as effective as 30 boyz but basically the same as 12 (20 s4 shots hitting on 3s then 10 s4 cc on 3s from marines is 30 possible attacks which is not worth it so whynwould 12 boyz be worth it?).

No buffs on either side:

12 Boyz, PK, 61 points
33 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 3.7 marines
4 * .5 * .833 * .833 = 1.4 marines

10 Marines, Power Sword, 134 points
9 * .666 * .5 * .833 = 2.8 orks
2 * .666 * .5 = 0.7 orks

The marines will certainly be better at shooting, but that's the point of the trukk. For *11* points more I get 12 boyz, a PK, and a trukk for that 10 man marine squad. So in a real comparison (in a vacuum) the marines have no chance. Like...at all...

12 boyz is 72pts not 61 and I am assuming you meant free nob not PK Nob.

Yup, sorry - hand went awol there. Still, it's not terribly far.

well if we are going to compare Trukk boyz vs Rhino Marines then the cost would be 72 + 82 = 154pts for 12 boyz, a trukk and a big shoota.
Marines get 9 Marines with vet sgt for 130pts + Rhino with Double Storm bolters for 74 = 204. So 50 more pts nets you a 3+ armor save for 10 bodies vs a 6+ for Orkz, it also gives you a T7 3+ save transport to the Orkz T6 4+ save and you also get significantly better ranged weapons across the board.

You should probably get 2 x 5 marines in there. Filling 2 troop slots at once, getting a free sarge and access to 2 plasmas and stormbolters significantly increasing the squad's effectiveness. Even though tacticals are pretty ok (i'd like to point out that they win boyz hands down on an individual level point for point), marine players usually take them as a source of CP rather than a main strike force whereas orks are basically stuck with boyz eq.

 koooaei wrote:
You should probably get 2 x 5 marines in there. Filling 2 troop slots at once, getting a free sarge and access to 2 plasmas and stormbolters significantly increasing the squad's effectiveness. Even though tacticals are pretty ok (i'd like to point out that they win boyz hands down on an individual level point for point), marine players usually take them as a source of CP rather than a main strike force whereas orks are basically stuck with boyz eq.

Well now we're up to 234 points. It doesn't change that those Orks can kill half those marines in combat. In the broader context you've spent 124 above and beyond the typical scouts that would fill those slots and that is going to come out of your list elsewhere (but I wholly support it).
And beyond that you have plasma guns that will kill the marines, but obviously you wouldn't be OC without a captain nearby so we're up even more and things get even more complex.

And this is why mathhammer is great, but it shouldn't be the ultimate governor to what you do.

Anyway - at long range this setup does 1 to 5 damage 82% of the time. 3 is most common. In RF it is 3 to 9 81% of the time. 6 is most common.

So if I go first you'll backpedal to 12" and pull most of it's wounds off, but it doesn't matter. You're still in threat range. Doing a sideways charge on the trukk with the rhino is probably the best move to eliminate some distance, but the rhino is the first thing my TBs will focus, because I recognize the threat it offers to gumming up the works. Fortunately many people don't take rhinos just as orks don't take trukks. The trukk itself will still have a 6 to 8" move (if not stuck by the rhino). If it has 1 wound left it's probably dead on the charge. 2 or 3 gives me good odds. The rest is history.

If I go second then the odds of the Trukk dying turn 2 are pretty high. If it doesn't die the rhino still charges. If it does then the rhino charges the boyz. If I failed to cripple or take out the rhino with TBs i'm in trouble. But then again there are also 30 boyz that jump whomped nearby. What will the priority for the bolters be?

And then it just gets more complex from there since you might decide to toss a missile or LC at a trukk here and there, so redundancy is important, because some trukks WILL die.

You can't really afford to waste your TB's shooting on a rhino though. It's not like you have an abundance of anti-vehicle shooting to spare.

Which is kind of the whole point of the discussion.

 Jidmah wrote:
You can't really afford to waste your TB's shooting on a rhino though. It's not like you have an abundance of anti-vehicle shooting to spare.

Which is kind of the whole point of the discussion.

Depends what is in range. And what I'm facing. I set TBs on the table and shield them from view. If I see an opportunity I'll unload boyz and load TB. Otherwise they'll hoof it or get jumped.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You should probably get 2 x 5 marines in there. Filling 2 troop slots at once, getting a free sarge and access to 2 plasmas and stormbolters significantly increasing the squad's effectiveness. Even though tacticals are pretty ok (i'd like to point out that they win boyz hands down on an individual level point for point), marine players usually take them as a source of CP rather than a main strike force whereas orks are basically stuck with boyz eq.

Well now we're up to 234 points. It doesn't change that those Orks can kill half those marines in combat. In the broader context you've spent 124 above and beyond the typical scouts that would fill those slots and that is going to come out of your list elsewhere (but I wholly support it).
And beyond that you have plasma guns that will kill the marines, but obviously you wouldn't be OC without a captain nearby so we're up even more and things get even more complex.

And this is why mathhammer is great, but it shouldn't be the ultimate governor to what you do.

Anyway - at long range this setup does 1 to 5 damage 82% of the time. 3 is most common. In RF it is 3 to 9 81% of the time. 6 is most common.

So if I go first you'll backpedal to 12" and pull most of it's wounds off, but it doesn't matter. You're still in threat range. Doing a sideways charge on the trukk with the rhino is probably the best move to eliminate some distance, but the rhino is the first thing my TBs will focus, because I recognize the threat it offers to gumming up the works. Fortunately many people don't take rhinos just as orks don't take trukks. The trukk itself will still have a 6 to 8" move (if not stuck by the rhino). If it has 1 wound left it's probably dead on the charge. 2 or 3 gives me good odds. The rest is history.

If I go second then the odds of the Trukk dying turn 2 are pretty high. If it doesn't die the rhino still charges. If it does then the rhino charges the boyz. If I failed to cripple or take out the rhino with TBs i'm in trouble. But then again there are also 30 boyz that jump whomped nearby. What will the priority for the bolters be?

And then it just gets more complex from there since you might decide to toss a missile or LC at a trukk here and there, so redundancy is important, because some trukks WILL die.

What are you arguing for? I can't see.
Are you trying to prove trukkboyz are good? Well, they aren't. Or that marines are not good? Well, they're better than trukkboyz. Not saying they're amazing but a squad of 13 ppm guyz that has easy access to 2+ save are useful in a shooty army. Plasmas are always great and sbs are an amazing weapon point-for point.

I leave for one day and you guys go onto graphs!? Wow... I knew we were nerds but his is going too far! New rule for all my threads! No graphs allowed!

I would love for trucks to be fixed with points cost but also rules help. TO show how shoody the construction of all their vehicles are any armored units like dreds tanks and such blow up on a 2+ cause they carry explosives. 2-5 D3 mortal wounds within 6 and on a 6 D6 mortal wounds...what do you guys think?

Hahah, an option for 2+ explosion for like 10 or 20pts would be funny. Also risky which i love!

Orkz need more randomness.

If I pop a battle wagon that made it to my lines (~6", lets say), it should have a chance to go BOOM.

Orkz with no crazy are not Orkz.

After playing quite a few games with tank bustas in trukks, I came to the conclusion that trukks really aren't the problem. It wouldn't hurt to shave off a few points, but they really do their job well when their cargo is pulling its own weight. Main issue with trukks is that neither units of 12 boyz nor 3 MANz are really a danger to anything and therefore not worth being transported in a trukk. If that changes, I think people would gladly pay ~80 points for a trukk that will deliver its passengers to their target more often than not, where in 7th you could easily lose 6+ trukks in turn 1.

I think if trukk boyz got some sort of a push, a battalions that run 3 trukks with 12 boyz each insider as troops and a KFF mek and a warboss on a bike would be just 662 without potential reduction from the codex. By fielding two or even three such battalions this would allow such list to have a great amount of CP to burn on stratagems, assuming we get something better than mob up.

 Jidmah wrote:
After playing quite a few games with tank bustas in trukks, I came to the conclusion that trukks really aren't the problem. It wouldn't hurt to shave off a few points, but they really do their job well when their cargo is pulling its own weight. Main issue with trukks is that neither units of 12 boyz nor 3 MANz are really a danger to anything and therefore not worth being transported in a trukk. If that changes, I think people would gladly pay ~80 points for a trukk that will deliver its passengers to their target more often than not, where in 7th you could easily lose 6+ trukks in turn 1.

I think if trukk boyz got some sort of a push, a battalions that run 3 trukks with 12 boyz each insider as troops and a KFF mek and a warboss on a bike would be just 662 without potential reduction from the codex. By fielding two or even three such battalions this would allow such list to have a great amount of CP to burn on stratagems, assuming we get something better than mob up.

I definitely wouldn't be saying trukks are useful if Mob Up wasn't available for sure. 22 boyz is a pretty decent unit (one needs to be 10 and under). With point costs I think it'd be pretty solid. Maybe if they made Mob Up for size 12, too.