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 DominayTrix wrote:

MalfunctBot wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So what's the misconceptions there? That smite rules etc weren't adopted right away? Saw much of gaming without those?

And I have yet to see anybody play for real without 3 detachment limit. I hear of them in internet but then that's internet rumour. Not real life experience...

But hey ho put head in sand and try to play without those. You'll be struggling to find much of opponents though.

And I've never seen anyone enforce the tournament restrictions or the Beta rules, guess it must just be internet rumours, cause there's no way that different groups of people can decide to play in different ways. It's just not possible.

I usually see people will enforce the detachment limit almost every time, but its kind of a toss up if people will use beta rules. It almost never matters either way though as long as it is decided before the game starts then most people are happy. Problems only really happen when "beta rules or nah" happens mid shooting phase for example.

Been able to collect a lot of data on tournament level games in the last few days then? The restrictions haven't been in place for even a week. How can people enforce the changes every time when most people probably haven't even had a game with the ACTUAL FAQ rules yet?

 iGuy91 wrote:
"I'm gonna IGNORE the rules I don't like! Deep striking turn 1, and no unit limits are back!"

- Lets be real these rules are gonna become rules. It worked this way in 7th on back, get over it.

Please god no.

 iGuy91 wrote:
"THE ONLY army that will do well now is IG! Tank Spam!"

-They have yet to win a major tournament. Chill.

Correction, gun lines are now even more dominant than before, with a whole turn of unmolested shooting from CC armies. That's what people are complaining about.

 iGuy91 wrote:
"GK are DEAD"

-They are best used as a small specialist detachment now with other units in support.

Yay, now I can't use my codex as an army, or I have to sacrifice CPs to brine auxiliaries or spend too much in soup for vanguard. Awesome. - a GK player.

 iGuy91 wrote:
"Soup is DEAD! MY ARMY DOESNT WORK ANYMORE"

-No, now you need to have detachments filled with units from only 1 ARMY...this is the way it was always supposed to work you WAAC grot

Rule 1 anyone? And yes, but soup lists usually ran whole detachments from different codes to keep chapter tactics, so it's not really a fix, just a kick in the nuts for GK.

 iGuy91 wrote:
"MAX 3 Data sheets in an army!! THE GAME IS DEAD!!!"

-Learn to diversify. Get over it. Use your imagination.

Hey, do you want to bring multiple drone units or more than 3 marksmen? Fancy taking 4 small units of Pathfinders? Well feth you. Thankfully this one is just a suggestion for tournaments.

That Gunlines will destroy the meta, sell everything and buy Astra Militarium stat!

 Sim-Life wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:

MalfunctBot wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So what's the misconceptions there? That smite rules etc weren't adopted right away? Saw much of gaming without those?

And I have yet to see anybody play for real without 3 detachment limit. I hear of them in internet but then that's internet rumour. Not real life experience...

But hey ho put head in sand and try to play without those. You'll be struggling to find much of opponents though.

And I've never seen anyone enforce the tournament restrictions or the Beta rules, guess it must just be internet rumours, cause there's no way that different groups of people can decide to play in different ways. It's just not possible.

I usually see people will enforce the detachment limit almost every time, but its kind of a toss up if people will use beta rules. It almost never matters either way though as long as it is decided before the game starts then most people are happy. Problems only really happen when "beta rules or nah" happens mid shooting phase for example.

Been able to collect a lot of data on tournament level games in the last few days then? The restrictions haven't been in place for even a week. How can people enforce the changes every time when most people probably haven't even had a game with the ACTUAL FAQ rules yet?

Woah simmer down with the hostility..... I just said people tend to use 3 detachment limit whenever I do a pick up game. I was talking about the last rotation of beta rules.... In which yeah, everything I said was accurate. Some opponents wanted to use them and some did not. I never had a problem either way as long as we both brought it up before the game, which is what I do. Even the most casual games I have found adhered to the 3 detachment limit especially after they knew I was playing Tau. The rule of 3 is going to be the exact same way. If I show up to a pickup game rocking more than 3 of a unit because I forgot to update a list then my opponents politely ask me to combine some units and give me some time before we start to make sure I don't break detachments. A little bit of politeness goes a long way for these kind of things so naturally I extend the same courtesies to my opponent if they make a slip up too.

- That not being able to Deep Strike Turn 1 is the end of the world.

 iGuy91 wrote:

"GK are DEAD"

-They are best used as a small specialist detachment now with other units in support.

Pretty much everything they do is now done better by someone else. They're not in a good place, there's no point in mincing words here.

"Soup is DEAD! MY ARMY DOESNT WORK ANYMORE"

-No, now you need to have detachments filled with units from only 1 ARMY...this is the way it was always supposed to work you WAAC grot

My Inquisitor and his buddies actually don't work anymore. While a somewhat competitive list, I wouldn't say it was WAAC (I mean, I ran Inquisition). The Inquisition is supposed to be pulling things from across the Imperial catalogue. This wouldn't be a problem if GW was just honest about not wanting to design the Inquisition to be a playable faction, and properly squatted them. 10+ years of half-measures is just a constant kick in the teeth.

"MAX 3 Data sheets in an army!! THE GAME IS DEAD!!!"

-Learn to diversify. Get over it. Use your imagination.

It actually does really hurt some factions and builds. Dark Eldar wanting to play under a single obsession (or even just two battalions of the same) are going to have a lot of trouble putting together a list, and they just came out. I know someone with an Iyanden Wraithhost that is going to have a really hard time building his army now. There are a lot of forces that are going to be hit a lot harder than others. While ultimately a good decision for the game itself, there are a lot of players who are going to be hurt for it, and a few factions that are very poorly designed to handle it. It also does not help matters that the stronger factions tend to have a wide enough selection of tools available that this change won't really come to harm them much in the first place. This one is more a pain of transition that could have been handled better.

 Silentz wrote:
People flipping their heads because now you can't take an army of IMPERIUM or CHAOS. Everything in your entire army has to have one keyword.

THAZZ WOT IT SEZZ MATE!

Also people who can't understand how FLY charge works now and debate that they measure diagonally despite pasting in the rules themselves

Yep, this is the biggest misconception I have heard. Every time I am at the shop there is someone complaining that allies are dead for the edition.

On the other hand, the biggest actual complaint is the removal of wobbly model syndrome and such for assaulting up a building with limited space.

I’m going through the list of things affected by deep strike beta rules:
1. Anything that normally deep strike from reserves.
2. Anything setup in reserves and then deep struck with a Stratagem like Teleportarium or what have you.

What’s not affected:
1. Psychic powers that deep strike a unit that’s already on the board.
2. Stratagems that allow for a unit to deep strike turn one, Aka Genestealer Ambush.
3. Scout moves that move a unit closer to the opponent, like rangers.

I’ve listened to four podcasts about the FAQ already and none of them have this clarified. I was hoping the Frontline Gaming podcast would have mentioned it, but I think they misunderstood the question (Reece was under the impression it didn’t affect Gate of Infinity or Da Jump I think).

The Long War and Forge the Narrative seemed to try to run ASAP when the faq dropped so they didn’t see the clarification.

GW’s team has come out and tried to clarify this multiple times due to a FAQ answer from last time about moving after deepstrike causing confusion. Even though they’ve confirmed with the rules writing team and put out a chart of which units are better with this beta people are still saying “That’s not what it says in the FAQ”. It is quite literally a RAI vs RAW argument. But in this case the company has said what their intent is and people are ignoring it.

Spoletta wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Probably that people keep acting like the 3 data sheet thing is a rule or even a beta rule when it's actually the equivalent of a designers note.

Like the fact that the table should be 72" by 48" at 2000 points. You never see anyone playing like that, right?

Quite right, most tables here are a few mm off as they are metric sizes, I mean we have been living in fear of the GW goons kicking the door down for ages

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

GW’s team has come out and tried to clarify this multiple times due to a FAQ answer from last time about moving after deepstrike causing confusion. Even though they’ve confirmed with the rules writing team and put out a chart of which units are better with this beta people are still saying “That’s not what it says in the FAQ”. It is quite literally a RAI vs RAW argument. But in this case the company has said what their intent is and people are ignoring it.

Well guess it's too much to expect GW to act like professional game designers. If GW goes for route FB posts&comments are official then we come into situation where we need 4+ books, faq's for them AND direct links to multiple FB posts/comments which many(maybe majority) won't ever even see just to play.

Any PROFESSIONAL company would put them in one place. It would take them good 5 minutes or so and make game much more approachable. Now I don't even know what ARE exact official rules? How many FB comments/answers have I missed? How am I supposed to know? 8th ed is almost year old and I don't follow them daily or even weekly or even monthly. Just when I spot somewhere else direct link to something interesting looking.

I can't be sure what are official rules of game I'm supposed to play right now

That's a problem right there. THAT is why professional companies put official answers etc in one easily foundable location. It would take GW literally just MINUTES to do so.

But GW doesn't even pretend to be anything but bunch of amateurs doing whatever they wish. If it sounds like actual work who cares...

 Eldarsif wrote:
- That not being able to Deep Strike Turn 1 is the end of the world.

Remember in previous editions, deep strike was not possible in turn 1 and we had to roll for appearance from turn 2 on.
Alpha striking in turn 1 was a misconception.

What I'm interested to see is how folk adapt once the dust settles.

For instance, let's say the Deepstrike Rule is here to stay. People will work their way around it. Choose the right units, and you can have resilient units piling in Turn 1, whilst the more destructive units are piled into cheaper transports to prevent them getting all shot up on their way over the board.

That's very different to 'I'll just drop my most destructive HTH units as close to you as possible' in terms of which units one might find desirable. And that is almost inevitably going to change up the armies we see across from us when deploying.

tneva82 wrote:Any PROFESSIONAL company would put them in one place. It would take them good 5 minutes or so and make game much more approachable. Now I don't even know what ARE exact official rules? How many FB comments/answers have I missed? How am I supposed to know? 8th ed is almost year old and I don't follow them daily or even weekly or even monthly. Just when I spot somewhere else direct link to something interesting looking.

I can't be sure what are official rules of game I'm supposed to play right now

That's a problem right there. THAT is why professional companies put official answers etc in one easily foundable location. It would take GW literally just MINUTES to do so.

But GW doesn't even pretend to be anything but bunch of amateurs doing whatever they wish. If it sounds like actual work who cares...

It’s not an update to the rule though. It’s a clarification. Even still if GW updated every five minutes for every rules clarification it would have a similar effect. “Today we will be using the FAQ from last night” “But I’ve been using the FAQ from two nights ago to test my list!”. The deep strike turn 1 debate is a bunch of people upset about a Rules misinterpretation. A beta rule at that which will likely have a clarification when the FAQ drops changing t from Beta to a codified rule.

This isn’t like changing the points cost of a model on Facebook this is a rules interpret problem which they clarified. Many times before GW has had their customer support team answer problems like this. For instance when deepstrike rules stated you couldn’t have your entire army in reserves GW’s support team sent an email to concerned players that yes Legion of the Damned needed allies to be fielded without auto losing.

Professional game companies? Who do you mean? I don’t know a single tabletop company that does changes like that immediately. Especially if it’s a rules clarification. Maybe a video game company, but even they won’t patch a game the next day unless it’s a major defect.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:What I'm interested to see is how folk adapt once the dust settles.

For instance, let's say the Deepstrike Rule is here to stay. People will work their way around it. Choose the right units, and you can have resilient units piling in Turn 1, whilst the more destructive units are piled into cheaper transports to prevent them getting all shot up on their way over the board.

That's very different to 'I'll just drop my most destructive HTH units as close to you as possible' in terms of which units one might find desirable. And that is almost inevitably going to change up the armies we see across from us when deploying.

I’m expecting units with better threat range to pick up the slack of no turn 1 deep strike. Units like bikers or Jump packs. Though this is just a theory I’m not a tournament player at all.

It is amusing how people bring all melee units and have the audacity to be upset they get shot. Especially when they can choose to bring guns on the selfsame unit.

Knives to a gunfight folks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, GW are professional game designers. The amount their stock is worth, and the fact that people come here to whine incessantly while buying their products shows the truth of it.

Zothos wrote:
It is amusing how people bring all melee units and have the audacity to be upset they get shot. Especially when they can choose to bring guns on the selfsame unit.

Knives to a gunfight folks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, GW are professional game designers. The amount their stock is worth, and the fact that people come here to whine incessantly while buying their products shows the truth of it.

Probably because every ranged weapon in my entire index is trash except for KMKs. There are literally no other competitive options, and I am sorry but I refuse to go out and buy more of that kit, its like $60 for 1 gun and guess what? they cost about 50pts, so if I want to spam them (18 is the max right now) I have to spend over $1,000 just on those guns. Or are you suggesting I take sub optimal units like those wonderful Lootas that don't survive past turn 2, or Flashgitz, who can't even move up the board without being in a massively over priced transport. Or maybe you suggest I bring my 27pt Bikes? of course I could go ahead and bring KillaKanz, you know, for laughs.

Dude my entire army is based on CC, and that isn't my fault, its GW designing a crappy index for the Ork Army. Not being able to deep strike turn 1 means I can't use my Kommando Horde army anymore and I am forced to go to what every other ork army is based on right now, Green Tide. It gets a bit boring moving 180+ models up the board 5+D6 inches at a time.

Zothos wrote:
It is amusing how people bring all melee units and have the audacity to be upset they get shot. Especially when they can choose to bring guns on the selfsame unit.

Knives to a gunfight folks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, GW are professional game designers. The amount their stock is worth, and the fact that people come here to whine incessantly while buying their products shows the truth of it.

Meanwhile, armies with BS5+ and/or no reasonably priced ranged models exist.

You can succeed with an army that is all shooting. You cannot succeed with an army that is all melee.

Some armies CAN go one way, or the other - and some armies CAN ONLY go one way; most often, singularly melee focused.

It's amusing how people keep making posts like yours though.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dude my entire army is based on CC, and that isn't my fault, its GW designing a crappy index for the Ork Army. Not being able to deep strike turn 1 means I can't use my Kommando Horde army anymore and I am forced to go to what every other ork army is based on right now, Green Tide. It gets a bit boring moving 180+ models up the board 5+D6 inches at a time.

When the Indexes first dropped Ork, Tyranids, and Imperial Guard were pretty good. The horde buff really required people to think about Orks for a change. Sadly that buff hasn’t carried them through once the Codexes started dropping.

Compared to Melee, KMKs don’t hold a candle to Ork Melee as far as I can tell. I’m no expert though so take that with a grain of salt.

Does the turn one to turn two hurt that much for Kommandos? I’ve been trying them out as a turn three objective grabber with mixed results.

I honestly can’t wait for the Ork Codex to drop.

Orks will be fine when their codex drops, there hasn't been a truly bad book since Grey Knights. Looking forward to seeing the Bad Moons rules for some shooty orks.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Orks will be fine when their codex drops.

You think that's the worst misconception? You might be right...

 Arachnofiend wrote:
there hasn't been a truly bad book since Grey Knights.

Adeptus Mechanicus.

Not to the extent of Grey Knights, and certainly not after the FAQ, but it was bad.

Zothos wrote:
It is amusing how people bring all melee units and have the audacity to be upset they get shot. Especially when they can choose to bring guns on the selfsame unit.

Knives to a gunfight folks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, GW are professional game designers. The amount their stock is worth, and the fact that people come here to whine incessantly while buying their products shows the truth of it.

Some armies simply don't WORK as shooty armies. Try bringing shooty orks or shooty khorne daemons and see how it goes.

And btw GW is good example in how you don't NEED professional rule creators or professional practice to succeed. Especially when your succeed is based on 20+ year old good decision which basically made your product synonym for the area making it very hard to fail. GW succeeds DESPITE their rules. The rules suck and the GW studio doesn't even operate like professionals(good example being how they put official comments and rule changes now to multiple locations but not on one location. One of the best and most customer friendly decisions GW had EVER made and they went away from it).

Zothos wrote:
It is amusing how people bring all melee units and have the audacity to be upset they get shot. Especially when they can choose to bring guns on the selfsame unit.

Knives to a gunfight folks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, GW are professional game designers. The amount their stock is worth, and the fact that people come here to whine incessantly while buying their products shows the truth of it.

That Khorne Soulgrinder and Skullcannon spam sure was lighting up the tournament scene.

Do Orks and Daemons have shooting options? Yes they do. Daemons are one of my armies and a close friend plays Orks.

We both include shooting elements in our armies. They are effective at target dilution and softening units up before assault occurs.

If you choose to forego any of that, that is on you, and all of the whining on here will do no good. You hamstrung yourself. No sympathy.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
They make money, have a well presented product, and people like you buy and play their games.

That's pretty damn professional.

If you dislike the rules, do not play. It really is that simple.

Zothos wrote:
Do Orks and Daemons have shooting options? Yes they do. Daemons are one of my armies and a close friend plays Orks.

We both include shooting elements in our armies. They are effective at target dilution and softening units up before assault occurs.

If you choose to forego any of that, that is on you, and all of the whining on here will do no good. You hamstrung yourself.

I honestly have removed 90% of what was shooting in my Ork army from my lists. For example I still take Lootas and Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gunz, but I don’t take any Ork Boyz with Big Shootas or Weapons on my Battlewagon. Before it was hit or miss, but now it’s very much why bother especially against Space Marines. So far my opponents have been getting 2+ save while in Cover with his Space Marines and Big Shootas aren’t good at handling that. Additionally and this has been a problem long before 8th Rokkits are too unreliable with non-Tankbustas. Especially vehicles.

Zothos wrote:
Do Orks and Daemons have shooting options? Yes they do. Daemons are one of my armies and a close friend plays Orks.

We both include shooting elements in our armies. They are effective at target dilution and softening units up before assault occurs.

If you choose to forego any of that, that is on you, and all of the whining on here will do no good. You hamstrung yourself. No sympathy.

Ork shooting is laughably bad and most of their guns did not come out well translating into 8th edition (basically every weapon that was blast is next to useless for the Orks besides the KMK). You can take ranged weapons but a single minus to hit modifier cuts the majority of Ork dakka in half. Half of the assault weapon mechanic (the run and shoot bit) self cripples Ork firepower while Orks are still paying a fairly heavy premium for their dakka despite having half the accuracy and a great deal less durability than their space marine counter parts. Taking a lot of Ork range weapons just results in an army that isn't very good at shooting, mediocre to poor at melee, and outside of shoota boyz and mek gun crew, Ork ranged units bleed points like crazy when they take casualties. I say this as somebody who loved Ork shooting in 7th (Killkannon wagons, lobbas, lootas, flash gitz, tankbustas, dakkajets, etc) but in 8th Ork ranged units just aren't very good. When running Kans, I've given up on trying to make them work at range and just take the cheapest gun possible so they can waddle into melee and punch things to death.

Zothos wrote:
Do Orks and Daemons have shooting options? Yes they do. Daemons are one of my armies and a close friend plays Orks.

We both include shooting elements in our armies. They are effective at target dilution and softening units up before assault occurs.

If you choose to forego any of that, that is on you, and all of the whining on here will do no good. You hamstrung yourself. No sympathy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
They make money, have a well presented product, and people like you buy and play their games.

That's pretty damn professional.

If you dislike the rules, do not play. It really is that simple.

Yes we do have shooting options, none are good except KMKs for orkz. Or are you suggesting I should take my 180ppt+ battlewagon with a Range 24 S7 D6 shot Killkannon that hits on 5+ which means an average of 1 hit a turn? or what about those Flashgitz with ranged 24 heavy 3 guns and 6+ armor on a T4 platform. They won't get shot off the table turn 1 right? How about I bring a Stompa, with all that DAKKA! Ohh wait, thats right. A Predator Annihilator does AS MUCH dmg as it for about 1/5th the price.

Ork shooting is useless this edition, and your suggestion that I take more of it to "Soften Up" targets shows you lack any understanding of how the game works. If you take a unit of Lootas they will die turn 1 or turn 2, they don't shoot well and because you took 15 of them you didn't take that equivalent in CC ork boyz who will actually accomplish something before the unit gets wiped out, unlike lootas.

And if you have no sympathy and no suggestions besides L2P then please stop posting here.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
there hasn't been a truly bad book since Grey Knights.

Adeptus Mechanicus.

Not to the extent of Grey Knights, and certainly not after the FAQ, but it was bad.

AdMech largely just needed/needs points adjustments, it's not fundamentally unsalvageable like Grey Knights.

 Silentz wrote:
People flipping their heads because now you can't take an army of IMPERIUM or CHAOS. Everything in your entire army has to have one keyword.

Could be that some people take issue with the idea of the Traitor Legions (especially the main four) forgetting who they are whenever they summon daemons.

The biggest misconception about the FAQ that my playgroup has is that I won't be able to get in their face fast enough to murk them in GLORIOUS MELEE!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
People flipping their heads because now you can't take an army of IMPERIUM or CHAOS. Everything in your entire army has to have one keyword.

Could be that some people take issue with the idea of the Traitor Legions (especially the main four) forgetting who they are whenever they summon daemons.

For the twentieth time, HBMC, summoned units do not in any way affect allegiance. If the daemons are summoned by a Death Guard army, it is still a Death Guard army.