X-wing 2.0 announced

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**Stormonu**

Price annoys me, but my real concern is the proliferation of actions. I really think this edition’s bane is going to be the number of actions you can stack on some ships. I’m expecting it will become the #1 problem of the new game.

**Slipspace**

Stormonu wrote:
Price annoys me, but my real concern is the proliferation of actions. I really think this edition’s bane is going to be the number of actions you can stack on some ships. I’m expecting it will become the #1 problem of the new game.

Huh? The devs have said the exact opposite is happening. Multiple actions, and especially multiple mods, will be very difficult to come by. Similarly, there won't be nearly as many ships with double repositioning actions either. All the linked actions we've seen so far give you stress too.

**ingtaer**

The most I have heard is three (kind of four) on Vader and that is pretty exceptional, 2 appears to be common enough on ace type craft. Have you heard different?

**Stormonu**

Slipspace wrote:
Stormonu wrote:
Price annoys me, but my real concern is the proliferation of actions. I really think this edition’s bane is going to be the number of actions you can stack on some ships. I’m expecting it will become the #1 problem of the new game.

Huh? The devs have said the exact opposite is happening. Multiple actions, and especially multiple mods, will be very difficult to come by. Similarly, there won't be nearly as many ships with double repositioning actions either. All the linked actions we've seen so far give you stress too.

The video posted above shows the opposite, with X-wings having chained actions and the U-Wing handing out extra actions like candy.

Jek Porkins + U-Wing: U-Wing passes Focus to Jek. Jek does focus + boost, gains a stress. Rolls die to remove stress, takes another action, say, barrel roll. 4 actions right there.

That’s just one combo. I’m sure players will find many, many more - and far more elaborate combinations.

**Meade**

D6Damager wrote:

Not if you want to be competitive. The cards are more important than the ships in this game. You will need cards from the other faction to make your crappy ships not suck. The only saving grace here would be if they allow you to not have a physical card and use the app for sanctioned play. So far, there has been no mention of it.

That's a potential, I'll give you. But they have stated that cards are faction-specific, you get a buttload of cards in the conversion set and a lot of stuff is just built into the ships, like action type stuff.

I think it's too early to tell for competitive play, we need to see what actually turns out to be competitive versus the things that are provided. If they follow through with using the points adjustments on the app then there shouldn't be a must-have card that you need 4 of to play, because there will be other options and you've essentially bought a couple years worth of expansions in one shot. But, it's nothing you haven't already been dealing with if you are a competitive player. I think most truly competitive players are used to spending money on this game and are just grinning from ear to ear with this announcement. The tradeoff is perfectly reasonable, to get a newly playable game rather than a next umpteen wave with all the fixes tacked on, all your previous waves just shot.

**Davor**

I am not saying people are wrong here. I just want to understand where they are coming from. How many people who are complaining also play 40K? I am just curious because as was said in 40K there is a new edition ever 2 years (really 18 months) and 4-5 years. Then you have to buy codices and other books for rules as well.

Also now in with GW you also have to pay for errata when points are changed. So I don't see what the problem is over here. It's the same just with GW we are paying for dead trees to play a new edition. So if you play 40K current edition and complaining about Xwing, I just don't get it.

I can understand people who quit GW because of this tactic and went to Xwing, but to continue with 40K and complain about Xwing, I just don't get it.

Is it a business decision? Yes. FFQ or Asmodee or who ever it is, saw that Xwing is not growing and this could be a way they think it's a good way for Xwing to grow again.

Does it suck? Yes. Thing is, we don't need to buy everything at once. Is FFG doing the GW treatment and being a limited release? If so, I guess we can complain then. If not, we buy when we can afford it.

Also there is no difference in buying this pack just for the cards. How many people buy packs for the cards and not the ship? So this is not any different. If anything wouldn't this be cheaper, paying $50 for the box instead of buying individual ships for the cards?

Yes I know, it's like rebuying the same ships again just for the cards. Then again, it's not any different that people had to buy new minis for 40K when new editions come out.

So just like to understand why people are complaining when they continue to play 40K but complain about it for Xwing.

**Meade**

Stormonu wrote:
Price annoys me, but my real concern is the proliferation of actions. I really think this edition’s bane is going to be the number of actions you can stack on some ships. I’m expecting it will become the #1 problem of the new game.

Yeah that was my immediate thought as well. You do sort of have that problem already, and I think stress will still be an issue that mitigates it... since some of the actions are red now. Also the actions themselves in general seem to be nerfed. But i also saw that using force points is another way to get extra actions? We shall see.

Also while the ships themselves have chained actions, I still expect that cards which grant bonus actions like PTL will be more rare or at least nerfed in this edition.

**Albertorius**

To all the people saying that they absolutely need to buy multiple conversion boxes:

Do you guys really play consistently with enough stuff that you won't be able to just play with one? I mean, I'm not sure, but with that plus the core box, I don't think there's much you can't play with what's in there...

**warboss**

Stormonu wrote:
Price annoys me, but my real concern is the proliferation of actions. I really think this edition’s bane is going to be the number of actions you can stack on some ships. I’m expecting it will become the #1 problem of the new game.

TBH, I haven't even looked in detail at any of the posts/videos detailing the actual rules changes. In a gaming version of the hierarchy of needs, rules come after value for me personally. If I don't feel the cost to upgrade/continue is worthwhile regardless of whether or not I can afford it (like when I stopped buying x-wing boosters to chase cards when I stopped liking the ships they came with), I generally don't get to the personal satisfaction that rules may give me. For x-wing, I'm on the fence because of that. It's not unreasonable at $140 for me as my final upgrade cost (core, rebel and imperial upgrade sets) but it's also more than I consider to be a value for a game that I probably won't play often. If I only had to get a conversion set and not the starter in addition to it, I'd definitely jump in at $50 for one faction to test the water with the rules and, if I liked the changes, spend another $50 to upgrade my other faction. But $140 out of the gate? That's 10 ships worth of purchases and rightfully gives me pause. YMMV.

**Arbitrator**

Davor wrote:

So just like to understand why people are complaining when they continue to play 40K but complain about it for Xwing.

Because there's a double standard when it comes to GW and other companies. Games Workshop fans are so used to them being screwed over that practising a basic PR presence was considered revolutionary and a sign of a whole new company.

You see this when Privateer Press started making less-than-ideal decisions and the amount of smug, overjoyed remarks from the GW Defence Force was flowing like water. "Yeah, now your company nearly sucks as much as ours! Haha!"

**ingtaer**

I suppose this isn't the time to mention that individual small ship prices are going up as well...

**gungo**

Meade wrote:
gungo wrote:

Right now I am looking at 2 imperial boxes, 2 rebel boxes, 1 box of scum and that covers all my ships, I need the core box apparently as well. This is $300 just for ships I already own and im stuck with 2 extra tie/ln I cant use because the game caps ships at 8 models.

No, you are looking at $70 bucks tops. Less if you are thrifty and have a an xwing community around you. My god man, don't go out and spend $300. Just buy the conversion set of the faction you want to play... you will have more than enough ships to play with. You can probably find the parts you need from the core set elsewhere (damage deck, other few random things) which would probably bring the cost down to $50. These things will be parted out on ebay and on forums. Have you tried calculating the actual MSRP cost of the ships you own?

Not only that, it's not $$ to 'keep on playing with the ships you own', it's closer to a new game. It's not an old GW style update where they just rejigger a few rules, throw up an $80 rulebook but keep the same broken points costs. They've altered the gameplay... it's like they've gone down a list and catered to every wish of the community (well, besides that people always want something for nothing). Just get one conversion set, play the game and if you actually enjoy it, buy into another faction, or not. At that point it will probably seem like a bargain.

-Living ruleset with constantly adjusted points costs
-All turrets are mobile firing arcs/ range bonuses
-Pilot skill nerfed
-Red dice rerfed
-Medium size bases
-Rules Bloat nerfed

etc, etc. These are things people have been complaining about for awhile. They're are not perfect and we all know that, but now that they have the app controlling points costs they at least have the tools to create a more balanced game than anything really that we see out there in the world of miniatures games. It is so much easier to turn a dial on an app than to fix with an faq, or a product that has to go through a whole production cycle.

sorry this is just completely dumb by any intelligent standard. Unless I want $800 worth of useless models it costs much more then $70. I hope this is just a troll because it is just a dumb comment.

To be fair I didn’t go around buying multiple of each ship just to have half a dozen ships of some. Certainships they keep putting in new packages with cards you want and need. This was the ffg ass model of sales. Most people recommended 2 core boxes to start. This gave you 2 templates and damage decks so you could teach someone and the core set was regularly on clearance at Barnes and Noble. That’s 2 xwing and 4 ties, next you were encouraged to pick up the blister to get Luke and howlrunner that’s 3 and 5, then they put an xwing in the epic ship and 2 ties in the carrier, that’s 4 and 7. Now we are required to buy the new core set that’s 5 and 9. I also picked up an extra tie expansion I think to make a swarm and for HOTAC. and at one point we had to order the xwing second core set to get the then required damage deck before they backtracked that decision due to backlash. I’ve resigned myself to giving away the first order and empire ships cause I have no intention of playing those factions. That’s only a loss of 2 t70 xwing and 3 tie/fo. This is great for new players starting out now. This completely screws over existing people unless they want to dump thier ships into the garbage.

**Kriswall**

I think one thing I've not seen mentioned much is that the new system will not require out of faction purchases to have access to all upgrade cards for a given faction. It sounds very much like X-Wing 2.0 will be like Legion and Runewars in that respect.

Under X-Wing 1.0, I purchased a ton of Rebel and Scum ships so that I could have more options for my Imperials. I don't think I ever used the Rebel ships and I might have used the Scum ships maybe 5 times total.

X-Wing 2.0 sounds great for someone like me who is really only interested in one faction. I can buy the new Core Set for $40 and then buy an Imperial Upgrade for $50. That'll give me everything I need to run my Imperial ships. I should only have to buy Imperial releases going forward to get all available options for my Imperial ships.

**kodos**

Albertorius wrote:
To all the people saying that they absolutely need to buy multiple conversion boxes:
Do you guys really play consistently with enough stuff that you won't be able to just play with one?

That is the problem, for most people it is just 1 or 2 ships that are missing
those that fly 3 T-65 are missing 1 and need another Kit for just 1 ship, or buy the single ship (or core set) and throw the old model away

the same with some Tie models, the problem is not that the Kit is bad value (it is not) but that you end up with models you cannot use any more unless you buy another kit (as the other option come with a model)

**gungo**

Arbitrator wrote:
Davor wrote:

So just like to understand why people are complaining when they continue to play 40K but complain about it for Xwing.

Because there's a double standard when it comes to GW and other companies. Games Workshop fans are so used to them being screwed over that practising a basic PR presence was considered revolutionary and a sign of a whole new company.

You see this when Privateer Press started making less-than-ideal decisions and the amount of smug, overjoyed remarks from the GW Defence Force was flowing like water. "Yeah, now your company nearly sucks as much as ours! Haha!"

I use the same imperial guard models since third edition release 1989 and added more over time they are all still usable. In 30 years I bought 5 rulebooks and 6 codecs, a supplement in 3rd edition as well. The books ranged anywhere from $20 to $60. That is NO WHERE in the ballpark of $300 just to use the models I currently own in xwing.

**Kriswall**

gungo wrote:
Arbitrator wrote:
Davor wrote:

So just like to understand why people are complaining when they continue to play 40K but complain about it for Xwing.

Because there's a double standard when it comes to GW and other companies. Games Workshop fans are so used to them being screwed over that practising a basic PR presence was considered revolutionary and a sign of a whole new company.

You see this when Privateer Press started making less-than-ideal decisions and the amount of smug, overjoyed remarks from the GW Defence Force was flowing like water. "Yeah, now your company nearly sucks as much as ours! Haha!"

I use the same imperial guard models since third edition release 1989 and added more over time they are all still usable. In 30 years I bought 5 rulebooks and 6 codecs, a supplement in 3rd edition as well. The books ranged anywhere from $20 to $60. That is NO WHERE in the ballpark of $300 just to use the models I currently own in xwing.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Let's call a duck a duck. You're talking about a SINGLE faction in 40k. You're talking about larger collections of ALL of the factions in X-Wing. Let's even things out and say you have three factions in 40k and have had them since 1989. You're going to be a hell of a lot higher than $300.

Also... I think your math HAS to be off. I've spent $160 for the rules to play Necrons under 8e. This is what I've needed to always be up to date with Necrons in the CURRENT EDITION. I might be a little off on the 7e pricing, but with just 7th and 8th Edition, I'm already over $300 in rules to have all of my options for a SINGLE 40k faction.

1. $60 - 8e Core Rules
2. $25 - 8e Index Xenos 2
3. $40 - 8e Codex Necrons
4. $35 - 8e Chapter Approved 2017
5. $85 - 7e Core Rules
6. $35? - 7e Codex Necrons
7. $50? - 7e Campaign Supplement feat. Necrons (Shield of Baal?)
7. $85? - 6e Core Rules
8. $60? - 5e Core Rules
9. $25? - 5e Codex Necrons
etc, etc...

To update X-Wing 1.0 to 2.0 will require $40. No getting around this. To upgrade an average collection of a single faction will cost $50. To upgrade a large collection of a single faction will instead cost $100. To upgrade the system AND large collections of everything that has ever been released for the game will obviously cost quite a bit, just as it would with 40k. Currently, if you want a "full rule set" for 40k 8e, you're well over $1000. The non-Forgeworld books alone cost $870 as of right now with more Codexes coming soon.

**warboss**

ingtaer wrote:
I suppose this isn't the time to mention that individual small ship prices are going up as well...

I didn't notice that. :(

**Kriswall**

warboss wrote:
ingtaer wrote:
I suppose this isn't the time to mention that individual small ship prices are going up as well...

I didn't notice that. :(

They've been the same price for a long time, but the cost to manufacture has probably gone up and the value of the dollar has gone down (gotta love inflation). FFG generally does a good job at keeping prices low/the same versus some other companies... cough, cough... GW. LCG pricing hasn't changed... ever?

**warboss**

Albertorius wrote:
To all the people saying that they absolutely need to buy multiple conversion boxes:

Do you guys really play consistently with enough stuff that you won't be able to just play with one? I mean, I'm not sure, but with that plus the core box, I don't think there's much you can't play with what's in there...

TIE swarm horde was *THE* competitive meta for a while (albeit in the beginning). On a more personal note, I frequently played 3-4 x-wings myself in normal games because Star Wars. I own 6.. two boosters, two starters, and two upgraded Force Awakens versions.

That's me on the center/left.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kriswall wrote:
warboss wrote:
ingtaer wrote:
I suppose this isn't the time to mention that individual small ship prices are going up as well...

I didn't notice that. :(

They've been the same price for a long time, but the cost to manufacture has probably gone up and the value of the dollar has gone down (gotta love inflation). FFG generally does a good job at keeping prices low/the same versus some other companies... cough, cough... GW. LCG pricing hasn't changed... ever?

While I was fine with the $15 price point when the game debuted (and $30 for the large ships), I did find that when I was trying to get folks into the game that it game them a bit of pause. It was on the upper end of reasonable for one miniature for me because the paint job and detail was quite good so I could justify paying as much for one fighter as I did for 5-6 other prepaints in a random box. $20 is fine for the slightly larger and more complex ships that followed (like the ARC or gunboat) but I do understand that costs go up. That said.. it's putting the cart before the horse for me personally as I don't think I'll be expanding much beyond my current collection. I've already got almost all the ships that I want from both canon and the abandoned EU (TIE predator, Sith Infiltrator, and Jedi Starfighter notwithstanding). I've never been a fan of comparing prices to industry leaders in fleecing gamers like GW though personally. Getting screwed less isn't a positive in my book.

p.s. I do freely admit that GW does now offer tons of value in large boxed games though like starters and HH boxes unlike their more traditional purchases/expansions and will give them credit for that in recent years.

**LunarSol**

Stormonu wrote:
Price annoys me, but my real concern is the proliferation of actions. I really think this edition’s bane is going to be the number of actions you can stack on some ships. I’m expecting it will become the #1 problem of the new game.

The game's core failing is that the dice curve pushes towards zero if you don't focus. Multiple actions were essentially necessary to let ships do anything interesting and contribute to combat. They definitely got out of hand (hi Soontir!) but the single action limit was a big reason the game needed so many dice fixing cards before it hit its stride.

**frozenwastes**

I'm actually glad I sold my small collection late last year. I had 4 rebel and 4 scum ships just for casual games every now and again. $40 for the starter plus $100 for the upgrade kits is slightly more than I payed for the 8 ships in the first place.

**Davor**

gungo wrote:
Arbitrator wrote:
Davor wrote:

So just like to understand why people are complaining when they continue to play 40K but complain about it for Xwing.

Because there's a double standard when it comes to GW and other companies. Games Workshop fans are so used to them being screwed over that practising a basic PR presence was considered revolutionary and a sign of a whole new company.

You see this when Privateer Press started making less-than-ideal decisions and the amount of smug, overjoyed remarks from the GW Defence Force was flowing like water. "Yeah, now your company nearly sucks as much as ours! Haha!"

I use the same imperial guard models since third edition release 1989 and added more over time they are all still usable. In 30 years I bought 5 rulebooks and 6 codecs, a supplement in 3rd edition as well. The books ranged anywhere from $20 to $60. That is NO WHERE in the ballpark of $300 just to use the models I currently own in xwing.

I am not saying you are wrong, again trying to understand. In 40K you are talking about one army. Are you talking about one army for Xwing as well?

On another note, why do people need all the cards? I mean can't we print them out? Or are we talking about tournament players here and they need to be official cards only. Also I am curious if so, how many armies do you bring to a tournament? After all don't you just field one army? So why would you need all 5 factions at once then? Can't we just buy what we need at the time?

Yes I know it sucks to spend more money on something we already bought. Thing is, we have upgrade packs or box set don't we? So we don't have to rebuy the minis just for the cards, we can buy the cards. To me this is just like buying a new rule set for a new edition like 40K or Fantasy/Age of Sigmar/what ever other Fantasy game. Same went for Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit and Warmahordes. For Xwing not to go through a new edition for what over 5 years, seems pretty good. Not like they do it all the time unlike other companies do.

That said, I can see where we are not getting value for our money. At least when we buy a new codex and rule set from GW, it seems we get more. We get Fluff. We get pictures and we get rules in the codices and rule books. We don't get that with Xwing or from Privateer Press now since we have to buy not real cards on the internet now.

So paying $50 for just cards, does seem like it's not worth it because we don't get pictures, or stories or fluff. So the value doesn't seem there. That I can understand and see why people would be complaining. Worth it for some and not worth it for others.
S

**LunarSol**

You need the new dials, but I am of the opinion that its best to just start with the conversion set for one faction and decide if you want to upgrade other later.

Most people own everything because the game essentially demanded it. Now's a good time to focus on a faction and offload the rest to someone else.

**theharrower**

ingtaer wrote:
I suppose this isn't the time to mention that individual small ship prices are going up as well...

Yeah, I saw this and that's what really ticked me off. I don't care about the upgrade costs, but every ship is $5 more. If anything is a money grab, it's that.

**Flinty**

I thought someone said that the new tie fighter dials are actually the same as the old ones. Problem solved for the Imperials

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

The more I think on this, the more conflicted and confused I become.

So... if the Conversion Kits mass-drop upgraded versions of every pilot and every upgrade, then the game really isn't a great opportunity for new players. An overwhelming amount of content will exist, and players might feel obliged to immediately buy a wide swathe of content.

But.... older players have already been told from Wave 2 onward of re-releases, that new cards will be included with existing/updated ships now repackaged. At that point as older ship packaging is phased out, will entire cards disappear from existence beyond their presence in Conversion Kits? How will the competitive community deal with this?

I'm actually going to entertain returning to this game, IF (and a big if), they remove the need for physical cards at organized play. As said elsewhere in this thread, the removal of that one petty item, would make this new edition so much more inviting. Even so, as someone who sold all my (massive) collection a year back, I am conflicted on how to buy back in, even if I want to. Are Conversion Kits functionally mandatory for competitive players who will want options, even if they're starting a new model collection from zero again?

**Stormonu**

theharrower wrote:
ingtaer wrote:
I suppose this isn't the time to mention that individual small ship prices are going up as well...

Yeah, I saw this and that's what really ticked me off. I don't care about the upgrade costs, but every ship is $5 more. If anything is a money grab, it's that.

Well, that’s a bit annoying, but I think I have just about all the ships I could ever need anyway.

Also, from what I saw of a shot of the new packaging, don’t they come with the “deluxe” plastic dials now?

**LunarSol**

The game has gone quite a long time without a price increase. Prepaints are expensive enough to produce I'm kind of surprised prices have held as long as they have.

**Kriswall**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The more I think on this, the more conflicted and confused I become.

So... if the Conversion Kits mass-drop upgraded versions of every pilot and every upgrade, then the game really isn't a great opportunity for new players. An overwhelming amount of content will exist, and players might feel obliged to immediately buy a wide swathe of content.

But.... older players have already been told from Wave 2 onward of re-releases, that new cards will be included with existing/updated ships now repackaged. At that point as older ship packaging is phased out, will entire cards disappear from existence beyond their presence in Conversion Kits? How will the competitive community deal with this?

I'm actually going to entertain returning to this game, IF (and a big if), they remove the need for physical cards at organized play. As said elsewhere in this thread, the removal of that one petty item, would make this new edition so much more inviting. Even so, as someone who sold all my (massive) collection a year back, I am conflicted on how to buy back in, even if I want to. Are Conversion Kits functionally mandatory for competitive players who will want options, even if they're starting a new model collection from zero again?

I think there is a zero percent chance that FFG removes the requirement for physical cards during FFG supported organized play events. FFG wants you to buy more toy space ships. They don't want to make it easier for you to buy fewer toy space ships. I think everyone would prefer to not have to actually pay for our toys, but that's not how the world works.

As to the new player thing... I think the Conversion Kits are a really solid opportunity. They give a new player the opportunity and all game mechanic required components necessary to play test pretty much every currently available model for their faction without having to commit to any purchases. The only thing they wouldn't have are the ships... which aren't actually required for game play. They look pretty, but X-Wing is, and always has been, a game of bases. They MIGHT have to buy one of the base packs to have enough to work with. Maybe not. Depends on what's in the box. I don't think these new players will think "Oh man, I need to go out and buy the 50 ships that this upgrade pack can support." I think, instead, that they'll try out different ships and buy the ones they like. It's really no different than a new player getting in towards the end of 1.0. There are currently an "overwhelming" number of options, yet somehow new players cope just fine. Not everyone buys in one day one and not every player buys 3+ of every ship.

**LunarSol**

I would be surprised if anything is conversion pack exclusive.