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 LunarSol wrote:
The game has gone quite a long time without a price increase. Prepaints are expensive enough to produce I'm kind of surprised prices have held as long as they have.

Price increase for what? Once you make a mold that's all of your upfront cost. Once that's done, the miniatures are cheaper to produce than the box it comes in. Not to mention most of the models from 1st edition to 2nd edition aren't changing and are using the same molds. So it's not like miniature costs have increased.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The more I think on this, the more conflicted and confused I become.

So... if the Conversion Kits mass-drop upgraded versions of every pilot and every upgrade, then the game really isn't a great opportunity for new players. An overwhelming amount of content will exist, and players might feel obliged to immediately buy a wide swathe of content.

But.... older players have already been told from Wave 2 onward of re-releases, that new cards will be included with existing/updated ships now repackaged. At that point as older ship packaging is phased out, will entire cards disappear from existence beyond their presence in Conversion Kits? How will the competitive community deal with this?

I'm actually going to entertain returning to this game, IF (and a big if), they remove the need for physical cards at organized play. As said elsewhere in this thread, the removal of that one petty item, would make this new edition so much more inviting. Even so, as someone who sold all my (massive) collection a year back, I am conflicted on how to buy back in, even if I want to. Are Conversion Kits functionally mandatory for competitive players who will want options, even if they're starting a new model collection from zero again?

I've thought about it too, and it is much better for a new player overall.

Currently to get into X-wing, and want to have say 2 decent Rebels lists you need to get a core set, 5/6 rebel ships to use in those lists but then 8 to 10 empire/scum ships for the upgrade cards you want. That's a horrible proposition for a new player.

In 2.0, you need to get the core set (same), 5/6 rebel ships to use (same) and 1 $50 conversion pack to give you every single upgrade card in existence for your faction. $50 is way less $$$ than the 8 to 10 random other ships, you get all upgrades not just some of them, and it's far easier to actually select - you just buy the conversion pack, you don't have to figure out *which* other random ships you need to get.

Even better, if you know you want a few rebel ships, you can get em on ebay (just the ship model and plastic stand) now for bugger all $$, just get the new core & conversion kit for $90 and be ready to rock.

$90 to have all the core rules/bits and all upgrades for your faction i do not find excessive. It compares fine to most other wargames edition changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 theharrower wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The game has gone quite a long time without a price increase. Prepaints are expensive enough to produce I'm kind of surprised prices have held as long as they have.

Price increase for what? Once you make a mold that's all of your upfront cost. Once that's done, the miniatures are cheaper to produce than the box it comes in. Not to mention most of the models from 1st edition to 2nd edition aren't changing and are using the same molds. So it's not like miniature costs have increased.

Almost certainly the licencing costs to Disney have gone up in the past 6/7 years.

Of course they've increased, inflation dictates that they've done so.

Plus being prepaints you've got ongoing material costs in the paint and masks, and I'm not sure how much is automated or done by hand, but there'll be maintainence costs and/or wages, all of which steadily creep up over time too.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, there's been a round of price increases in the U.K. due to "currency fluctuations" (apparently) in the last few years, despite sterling weakening vs the dollar, and FFG have that nasty habit of 1:1 $>£ conversion, so I wonder what impact it'll have over here.

Case in point, UK RRP for the conversion packs turned back into dollars is nearly US$70.

 warboss wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
To all the people saying that they absolutely need to buy multiple conversion boxes:

Do you guys really play consistently with enough stuff that you won't be able to just play with one? I mean, I'm not sure, but with that plus the core box, I don't think there's much you can't play with what's in there...

TIE swarm horde was *THE* competitive meta for a while (albeit in the beginning). On a more personal note, I frequently played 3-4 x-wings myself in normal games because Star Wars. I own 6.. two boosters, two starters, and two upgraded Force Awakens versions.



That's me on the center/left.

Understood ^^. Still, the core plus the booster will give you 3 X-Wing dials, which yes, is less than you have, but I'd say it's not that bad. You'll also have 6 TIE dials with the core. As to the Force Awakens ones, well, those will have their own conversion packs, IIRC.

They've been the same price for a long time, but the cost to manufacture has probably gone up and the value of the dollar has gone down (gotta love inflation). FFG generally does a good job at keeping prices low/the same versus some other companies... cough, cough... GW. LCG pricing hasn't changed... ever?

While I was fine with the $15 price point when the game debuted (and $30 for the large ships), I did find that when I was trying to get folks into the game that it game them a bit of pause. It was on the upper end of reasonable for one miniature for me because the paint job and detail was quite good so I could justify paying as much for one fighter as I did for 5-6 other prepaints in a random box. $20 is fine for the slightly larger and more complex ships that followed (like the ARC or gunboat) but I do understand that costs go up. That said.. it's putting the cart before the horse for me personally as I don't think I'll be expanding much beyond my current collection. I've already got almost all the ships that I want from both canon and the abandoned EU (TIE predator, Sith Infiltrator, and Jedi Starfighter notwithstanding). I've never been a fan of comparing prices to industry leaders in fleecing gamers like GW though personally. Getting screwed less isn't a positive in my book.

p.s. I do freely admit that GW does now offer tons of value in large boxed games though like starters and HH boxes unlike their more traditional purchases/expansions and will give them credit for that in recent years.

I have been told that it was an unavoidable move to keep the level of profit per ship they had when they started releasing the game, back in the day.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course they've increased, inflation dictates that they've done so.

Plus being prepaints you've got ongoing material costs in the paint and masks, and I'm not sure how much is automated or done by hand, but there'll be maintainence costs and/or wages, all of which steadily creep up over time too.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, there's been a round of price increases in the U.K. due to "currency fluctuations" (apparently) in the last few years, despite sterling weakening vs the dollar, and FFG have that nasty habit of 1:1 $>£ conversion, so I wonder what impact it'll have over here.

Case in point, UK RRP for the conversion packs turned back into dollars is nearly US$70.

Fair enough, but price increases on old models using the same molds is crap. Majority of the upfront costs are the molds. GW does the same thing all the time. When the Stormraven came out it was $45. Now it's what, $80? The sprues still cost pennies to produce. Granted FFG has other costs involved with prepaints and all of that, but I still don't think it's right. It's all a stop gap to try and not lose profits from all the customers they are going hemorrhage from going to 2nd edition. They will call it inflating costs, but that's just a small part of it. Like any company they just care about the bottom line. And I'm not saying that's wrong and they shouldn't, but charging higher prices for the same sculpts is just greed in my book. I'd be fine paying $20 for the new Y-Wing, X-Wing, and Fang Fighter sculpts. I have a problem with a $5 increase across the board. $15 was the sweet spot. $20 is just pushing it IMHO.

 theharrower wrote:

Fair enough, but price increases on old models using the same molds is crap. Majority of the upfront costs are the molds.

And people have blown up when new models with new molds are priced higher than old models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:
To all the people saying that they absolutely need to buy multiple conversion boxes:

Do you guys really play consistently with enough stuff that you won't be able to just play with one? I mean, I'm not sure, but with that plus the core box, I don't think there's much you can't play with what's in there...

I actually just did the math on this. The conversion kits cover 100% of the models I own after Wave 3. I've got some stuff not covered Wave 3 and prior (my poor TIEs :( ) but they're almost entirely things I had too much of already and then got one more via a repaint pack.

 theharrower wrote:
Fair enough, but price increases on old models using the same molds is crap. Majority of the upfront costs are the molds.

From what I have read over the years, molds wear out. Quality declines to a level where the detail starts to suffer, and a new mold is needed. A lot of Tie fighters have been made since wave 1, for instance, with maybe 10 (total guess) made in every batch?
So, "make the molds once and that's it" doesn't sound quite right.
The design costs though. They'll have been spent and don't wear out. That part of the manufacture process doesn't need to be done again.

Some of it is due to the new models, X-Wing, Y-Wing and Fang are all new. Firespray and TIE/ln are new paint jobs (maybe new model for TIE/ln). There is also going to be a new Silencer model and we have no info on any other stuff though the devs did say that they will be replacing stuff when they think it is deserved.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 theharrower wrote:
Fair enough, but price increases on old models using the same molds is crap. Majority of the upfront costs are the molds.

From what I have read over the years, molds wear out. Quality declines to a level where the detail starts to suffer, and a new mold is needed. A lot of Tie fighters have been made since wave 1, for instance, with maybe 10 (total guess) made in every batch?
So, "make the molds once and that's it" doesn't sound quite right.
The design costs though. They'll have been spent and don't wear out. That part of the manufacture process doesn't need to be done again.

Also, the cost to make something is only part of what determines the cost. What the customers are willing to pay is another (that's why generally monopolies aren't allowed); presumably FFG think that their customers will pay more for an X-Wing pack than they currently do.
(For example, in the 70s or 80s, British Airways asked its business customers how much they thought a ticket on Concorde cost. The average answer was significantly higher than what the price actually was - so they raised the price to match.)

Welp, I put in my preorder for the core, imp and rebel conversion; got a decent discount on MM.

Are we still debating about molds? I mean come on that is a GW excuse. Mold costs have nothing to do with how much something costs. "It's the price of doing business".

After all what about all the car companies, manufacturing companies, cups, dishes, everything, basically come from molds. If we have to use the GW excuse of "mold costs" then a $20 000 car would cost about a $100 000 then.

No molds is the "cost of doing business" and I am sure FFG is not using that excuse for the price increase like GW use to do. Also if molds cost so much, how come GW loves doing 1000 limited runs of minis then?

No, molds are not the reason why for the price increase. Inflation, prices not being raised for years, prices of plastic and paints and people's wages go up. Those are the reasons why the price increase as others have already said.

That said, yes it sucks for the prices going up, but if it's still a great game then the price increase should be well worth it. After all we don't have to buy everything all at once.

I now I couldn't afford all the ships for my collection so had to buy it here and there. That is a my problem, not FFGs fault.

So the $5 price increase is what a 25% increase does suck, look at it from how much fun you are going to still have. If you are not going to have fun, then it's time to move on and find a new game or something else you will have fun with.

Designers interview for 2.0 with Team Covenant.

Davor wrote:
Are we still debating about molds? I mean come on that is a GW excuse. Mold costs have nothing to do with how much something costs. "It's the price of doing business".

After all what about all the car companies, manufacturing companies, cups, dishes, everything, basically come from molds. If we have to use the GW excuse of "mold costs" then a $20 000 car would cost about a $100 000 then.

No molds is the "cost of doing business" and I am sure FFG is not using that excuse for the price increase like GW use to do. Also if molds cost so much, how come GW loves doing 1000 limited runs of minis then?

No, molds are not the reason why for the price increase. Inflation, prices not being raised for years, prices of plastic and paints and people's wages go up. Those are the reasons why the price increase as others have already said.

That said, yes it sucks for the prices going up, but if it's still a great game then the price increase should be well worth it. After all we don't have to buy everything all at once.

I now I couldn't afford all the ships for my collection so had to buy it here and there. That is a my problem, not FFGs fault.

So the $5 price increase is what a 25% increase does suck, look at it from how much fun you are going to still have. If you are not going to have fun, then it's time to move on and find a new game or something else you will have fun with.

"The cost of doing business" is passed on to the customer in the price of the product. I assure you that the cost of a car, a cup, a dish, all include the cost of the mould too. But yes, I don't think tooling costs are the only thing behind this price increase. Apparently there'll be more cards included in the packs from now on, which is part of it (and before you repeat yourself, no, the additional cost of the cards doesn't make up the entirety of the price rise, but putting more things into the package is a good way to explain away a price increase). Some of the increase will be due to costs, some will be because they think they'll get away with it.

For me, the biggest issue with this is that it drops 2 months too late. My sons have recently started getting into games like this. when I heard version 2 was coming, my thought was that it would help while away the summer holidays. I don't see any point in starting version 1 now, but they will be back at school by the time this arrives.

Well September puts it in time for Christmas, and also knowing FFG it'll get delayed for months anyway

 ElvisJuice wrote:
Well September puts it in time for Christmas, and also knowing FFG it'll get delayed for months anyway

And I can see a massive shortage of the new starter and the conversion kits, so loads of people will be behind with the new v2 system for months. Here's hoping FFG make enough.

Rodzaju wrote:
For me, the biggest issue with this is that it drops 2 months too late. My sons have recently started getting into games like this. when I heard version 2 was coming, my thought was that it would help while away the summer holidays. I don't see any point in starting version 1 now, but they will be back at school by the time this arrives.

No reason not to get into v1, y'know. The current game is fine, and when 2.0 drops if you have a small collection it will be easy to skip over to the new version - or stay with the old and get it at dirt cheap prices. The game does not suddenly suck or burst into flames because it's old.


-----------

A thought did strike me about 2.0. With Fett and the Scurg going to scum, what is going to happen to the Y-Wing and Z-Wing? I can definitely see the Y-Wing going to the Rebels and the Z going to scum (due to Nashtap Pup) - but will they do that or leave them available to both factions?

The conversion sets have both y wing and z95 for both scum and rebels. Seems unlikely that they would change that now.

Z and Y had two releases so there’s a bit of logic behind it.

It has been confirmed that Y, Z and HWK are both in Rebel and Scum.

My only hope is that they fix the Moldy Crow. I don’t think I’ve truly ever forgiven them for that one.

Yeah, I very reluctantly bought the HWK, haven’t ever run it outside of a campaign game. Hopefully they do a lot to make it a better ship thats fun to play.

 theharrower wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course they've increased, inflation dictates that they've done so.

Plus being prepaints you've got ongoing material costs in the paint and masks, and I'm not sure how much is automated or done by hand, but there'll be maintainence costs and/or wages, all of which steadily creep up over time too.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, there's been a round of price increases in the U.K. due to "currency fluctuations" (apparently) in the last few years, despite sterling weakening vs the dollar, and FFG have that nasty habit of 1:1 $>£ conversion, so I wonder what impact it'll have over here.

Case in point, UK RRP for the conversion packs turned back into dollars is nearly US$70.

Fair enough, but price increases on old models using the same molds is crap. Majority of the upfront costs are the molds. GW does the same thing all the time. When the Stormraven came out it was $45. Now it's what, $80? The sprues still cost pennies to produce. Granted FFG has other costs involved with prepaints and all of that, but I still don't think it's right. It's all a stop gap to try and not lose profits from all the customers they are going hemorrhage from going to 2nd edition. They will call it inflating costs, but that's just a small part of it. Like any company they just care about the bottom line. And I'm not saying that's wrong and they shouldn't, but charging higher prices for the same sculpts is just greed in my book. I'd be fine paying $20 for the new Y-Wing, X-Wing, and Fang Fighter sculpts. I have a problem with a $5 increase across the board. $15 was the sweet spot. $20 is just pushing it IMHO.

I think you are overlooking the material needed for these models.
The prices on the material is also subject to change and can also affect the prices of the models.

So while they may use the same molds, only so many times, they have other expenses that will go into making these that get factored in at the end.

On topic:
I really like what I am hearing for 2.0.

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, I very reluctantly bought the HWK, haven’t ever run it outside of a campaign game. Hopefully they do a lot to make it a better ship thats fun to play.

I played a game where he had a stack of like 8 Focus, which he could dole out like candy to his friends. That was fun.

But, yeah, the HWK needs a big buff.

Edited by moderator

Yikes... I expect that from some forums, but not DakkaDakka posters. Wow.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Yikes... I expect that from some forums, but not DakkaDakka posters. Wow.

^^^
What he said.

Just hit the yellow triangle of friendship and move on people.


2.0 seems like it might be pretty good from what I am seeing so far, I am at the very least excited to try it out.