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Leo_the_Rat wrote: Thank you Kdash for your work. Just one more question when you say where the armies placed that number is out of how many participants?
Out of 365. 366 were listed, but the 366th person didn't submit any results. 3 people only submitted 1 result.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Ridiculous. A gunline army with a small "functioning assault" detachment does not somehow become a "balanced hybrid"... it's still a gunline list (with a small assault element), at most that's what we see here for "diversity".
I realize Eldar are considered a mobile force, which they can be, but they can stand and shoot with the best of them and looking at those lists it was still mostly gunline with some other small element sprinkled in.
Are you suggesting that the below are gunline lists?
1st Place
Spoiler:
2nd Place
Spoiler:
9th Place
Spoiler:
I chose those as list 1 I have played against variants of plenty, list 2 I played against in game 1 and list 9 is a variant of my list.
List 1 can shoot a bit, sure, but it's more assault than shooting against many opponents, it has the ability to switch, but that is the nature of hybrids. List 2 doesn't stay still for a moment, it's mostly aircraft and dances around the board. The serpents are used for board presence and the ravagers shoot. List 9 is again a solid hybrid. Way more points and bodies in assault than shooting. It's actually mostly a board presence list that it is assault or shooting, though it can do both well.
Shooting does not equal gunline. DE has some of the deadliest shooting but if you call them a gunline you probably can't dress yourself in the morning.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Ridiculous. A gunline army with a small "functioning assault" detachment does not somehow become a "balanced hybrid"... it's still a gunline list (with a small assault element), at most that's what we see here for "diversity".
I realize Eldar are considered a mobile force, which they can be, but they can stand and shoot with the best of them and looking at those lists it was still mostly gunline with some other small element sprinkled in.
Are you suggesting that the below are gunline lists?
1st Place
Spoiler:
2nd Place
Spoiler:
9th Place
Spoiler:
I chose those as list 1 I have played against variants of plenty, list 2 I played against in game 1 and list 9 is a variant of my list.
List 1 can shoot a bit, sure, but it's more assault than shooting against many opponents, it has the ability to switch, but that is the nature of hybrids. List 2 doesn't stay still for a moment, it's mostly aircraft and dances around the board. The serpents are used for board presence and the ravagers shoot. List 9 is again a solid hybrid. Way more points and bodies in assault than shooting. It's actually mostly a board presence list that it is assault or shooting, though it can do both well.
A lot of people just blindly look at what units are equipped with to make their assessment of what a list "is" - they don't recognize "don't die and control the board" as a list type, though that's absolutely what several of these are.
The reality is there are almost no possibilities for "pure" assault lists in the game. I run full wych cult and I've got plenty of blasters, blast pistols, splinter weapons, etc. Locking enemy units down in assault and killing them is how the list wins, but a guy like this probably goes "that's a hybrid list! Gunline meta!"
So, first game, I didn’t get first turn and Magnus then got killed instantly.
Really? That's somewhat surprising. Did you deploy him in the center or to the corner?
Rest of the army then completely under performed. (Ahriman periled twice and died 1st turn even with a re-roll, had 2 other perils as well). Wasn’t a good game at all in terms of my performance, but a good game as a game
Ow.
My biggest question going forward though, is whether or not a 3rd Prince, additional screening/chaff, a couple of Shamans and a bigger Terminator squad is better than Magnus.
I think with Magnus two DPs are too much investment and he's better served with more smaller casters, but I haven't had enough games with him yet. I'm going down a summoning route currently though. You'll certainly get a ton of smites out of those shamans and DPs though.
So, first game, I didn’t get first turn and Magnus then got killed instantly.
Really? That's somewhat surprising. Did you deploy him in the center or to the corner?
Rest of the army then completely under performed. (Ahriman periled twice and died 1st turn even with a re-roll, had 2 other perils as well). Wasn’t a good game at all in terms of my performance, but a good game as a game
Ow.
My biggest question going forward though, is whether or not a 3rd Prince, additional screening/chaff, a couple of Shamans and a bigger Terminator squad is better than Magnus.
I think with Magnus two DPs are too much investment and he's better served with more smaller casters, but I haven't had enough games with him yet. I'm going down a summoning route currently though. You'll certainly get a ton of smites out of those shamans and DPs though.
The problem I had, was no matter where I placed him – due to the Search and Destroy deployment and the terrain, it meant, no matter what, Magnus could be seen (wing tips were taller and wider than the middle terrain sections).
The thing is though, as someone pointed out to be just before the event, 1 Daemon Prince without wings is only like 12 points more than an Exalted Sorcerer on a disc. Biggest issue imo with Thousand Sons. The HQs just cost so so much.
The thing is though, as someone pointed out to be just before the event, 1 Daemon Prince without wings is only like 12 points more than an Exalted Sorcerer on a disc. Biggest issue imo with Thousand Sons. The HQs just cost so so much.
I can see how Search and Destroy would be rough. I commonly run my DPs wingless as I just don't usually need them to jump over something. I'm just glad we don't have GK level HQ pricing.
What did you make of the contemptors' performance?
The thing is though, as someone pointed out to be just before the event, 1 Daemon Prince without wings is only like 12 points more than an Exalted Sorcerer on a disc. Biggest issue imo with Thousand Sons. The HQs just cost so so much.
I can see how Search and Destroy would be rough. I commonly run my DPs wingless as I just don't usually need them to jump over something. I'm just glad we don't have GK level HQ pricing.
What did you make of the contemptors' performance?
My opponents commented on them being a reasonable threat they had to deal with, but, I felt like I just didn’t get much out of them if I am honest. C-Beams just didn’t seem to do that much, Butcher Cannons did a reasonable amount though.
Will prob drop down to just 1, with double Butcher Cannons, however, if I also remove Magnus, then it would leave the single Contemptor as the only “lascannon” target in my army. At which point, it might just be better to go with 1 unit of 9 Enlightened and rely on the auto wounding.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Ridiculous. A gunline army with a small "functioning assault" detachment does not somehow become a "balanced hybrid"... it's still a gunline list (with a small assault element), at most that's what we see here for "diversity".
I realize Eldar are considered a mobile force, which they can be, but they can stand and shoot with the best of them and looking at those lists it was still mostly gunline with some other small element sprinkled in.
Are you suggesting that the below are gunline lists?
1st Place
Spoiler:
2nd Place
Spoiler:
9th Place
Spoiler:
I chose those as list 1 I have played against variants of plenty, list 2 I played against in game 1 and list 9 is a variant of my list.
List 1 can shoot a bit, sure, but it's more assault than shooting against many opponents, it has the ability to switch, but that is the nature of hybrids. List 2 doesn't stay still for a moment, it's mostly aircraft and dances around the board. The serpents are used for board presence and the ravagers shoot. List 9 is again a solid hybrid. Way more points and bodies in assault than shooting. It's actually mostly a board presence list that it is assault or shooting, though it can do both well.
A lot of people just blindly look at what units are equipped with to make their assessment of what a list "is" - they don't recognize "don't die and control the board" as a list type, though that's absolutely what several of these are.
The reality is there are almost no possibilities for "pure" assault lists in the game. I run full wych cult and I've got plenty of blasters, blast pistols, splinter weapons, etc. Locking enemy units down in assault and killing them is how the list wins, but a guy like this probably goes "that's a hybrid list! Gunline meta!"
Ok now you're just talkin BS... your own conclusion regarding "gunline meta" was regarding the armies in attendance, nobody even knew the winners at that point. Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction and that's incredible on it's own. For the first time that I can remember we're seeing multiple lists with 9 Basilisks.
Of course it's smart, tournament play, to take the best units for every phase of the game; soup is obviously not dead, but let's not pretend that what we see is just everyday 40K.
Ok now you're just talkin BS... your own conclusion regarding "gunline meta" was regarding the armies in attendance, nobody even knew the winners at that point. Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction and that's incredible on it's own. For the first time that I can remember we're seeing multiple lists with 9 Basilisks.
Of course it's smart, tournament play, to take the best units for every phase of the game; soup is obviously not dead, but let's not pretend that what we see is just everyday 40K.
There were barely any lists with 9 basilisks. There were only 33 occurrences of them in the whole tournament.
In fact there is not a single Basilisk or Manticore in the top 25. The first singular Basilisk was Reece's list at #46.
#11 is nids with 33 GS, Neophytes, termagants, and some hive guard
#12 is Nids with 8 shoot fexes, neophytes, and 20 GS #13 is Shining spears, rangers, and ravagers
#14 is Orks
#15 is IG, Banehammer, and BA #16 is Bananas
#17 is hilariously almost all nurglings
#18 is Alpha Zerks
#19 is Alpha - 6 Oblits, 3 DPs, 3 drones, and cultists
#20 is Sons, Horrors, and Letters
#21 is Magnus, cultists, enlightened, and burning chariots
#22 is Dragoons, Serpahim, and Retributors
#23 is Orks
#24 is DE raiders and grotesques
#25 is DE wracks, talos, and mandrakes
Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction
Yea, because there were 34 custard detachments and the only thing that goes with them is IG. There were also 22 BA, which almost always get paired with AM.
Ok now you're just talkin BS... your own conclusion regarding "gunline meta" was regarding the armies in attendance, nobody even knew the winners at that point. Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction and that's incredible on it's own. For the first time that I can remember we're seeing multiple lists with 9 Basilisks.
Of course it's smart, tournament play, to take the best units for every phase of the game; soup is obviously not dead, but let's not pretend that what we see is just everyday 40K.
There were barely any lists with 9 basilisks. There were only 33 occurrences of them in the whole tournament.
In fact there is not a single Basilisk or Manticore in the top 25. The first singular Basilisk was Reece's list at #46.
#14 is Orks
#15 is IG, Banehammer, and BA #16 is Bananas
#17 is hilariously almost all nurglings
#18 is Alpha Zerks
#19 is Alpha - 6 Oblits, 3 DPs, 3 drones, and cultists
#20 is Sons, Horrors, and Letters
#21 is Magnus, cultists, enlightened, and burning chariots
#22 is Dragoons, Serpahim, and Retributors
#23 is Orks
#24 is DE raiders and grotesques
#25 is DE wracks, talos, and mandrakes
Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction
Yea, because there were 34 custard detachments and the only thing that goes with them is IG. There were also 22 BA, which almost always get paired with AM.
You're counting detachments hah ok... there were only 8 BA pure lists and 8 BA used as allies. Again, I'm talking about the armies in attendance but conveniently switch back and forth to whatever medium suits your point.
You're counting detachments hah ok... there were only 8 BA pure lists and 8 BA used as allies. Again, I'm talking about the armies in attendance but conveniently switch back and forth to whatever medium suits your point.
The same rules apply to all other armies. AM was more popular BECAUSE OF Custodes.
You can keep ignoring everything else that was said though.
You're counting detachments hah ok... there were only 8 BA pure lists and 8 BA used as allies. Again, I'm talking about the armies in attendance but conveniently switch back and forth to whatever medium suits your point.
The same rules apply to all other armies. AM was more popular BECAUSE OF Custodes.
You can keep ignoring everything else that was said though.
Bigger and yellow somehow changes the meaning of numbers?
By your argument let's ignore the 9 pure Custodes lists... 19 Custodes allies... that's still less than just the number of pure IG lists.
Yes Custodes + IG was very popular, soup is so far from dead. Next you'll be counting the number of Custodes wounds to make your point?
Whether you choose to ignore it or not, this is a meta shift towards more gunlines... yes there's other stuff sprinkled in, but way way more gunlines.
You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
Arachnofiend wrote: You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
8th place is pure guard.
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Arachnofiend wrote: You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
8th place is pure guard.
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
I think what is getting blurred here is the idea that if it's not a "pure gunline" there is no gunline... pure gunlines definitely increased. But any good tournament list takes the best for every phase of the game, and so many of the top lists are still mostly gunline with some fast or assault element. If you want to call it a "hybrid" ok fine, but the pure gunlines, and partial gunline / hybrids dramatically increased.
Bigger and yellow somehow changes the meaning of numbers?
By your argument let's ignore the 9 pure Custodes lists... 19 Custodes allies... that's still less than just the number of pure IG lists.
Yes Custodes + IG was very popular, soup is so far from dead. Next you'll be counting the number of Custodes wounds to make your point?
Whether you choose to ignore it or not, this is a meta shift towards more gunlines... yes there's other stuff sprinkled in, but way way more gunlines.
Oh boy. You're fun. You're still ignoring everything else.
A gunline is defined by what does the work, right?
The AM in 1st and 3rd are objectively not gunlines. #8 is a gunline.
This guy took 93rd (3W2L) with most of his points coming from his last win against...another super heavy gunline (so he probably got first turn).
Spoiler:
Player Name Stuart Woolls
Army Faction Astra Militarum 144
TOTAL CP 8 (Battle forged 3 + Battalion 5 + Super heavy aux 0)
Total Army 2000pts
Bataillon Detachment, Regimental Doctrine: Catachan (1596 points) +5CP
HQ1 Tank Commander (167):Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) : Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
HQ2 Tank Commander (167) Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
Troop1 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol -[40pts]
Troop2 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol-[40pts]
Troop3 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword,Laspistol-[40pts]
Elite1 Bullgryns 4 (140) 2 x Brute shield (1 on Bone head 0) 2 x Slabshield (0) 4 x Bullgryn Maul (24) -[168pts]
Elite2 Sergeant Harker (50) Lead From the Front, Warlord-[50pts]
Fast1 Hellhound (73) Heavy Flamer (17), Heavy Stubber (4), Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon (20) [114pts]
Fast2 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Fast3 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Heavy1 2 x Basilisks (200)]. 2 x Heavy Bolter (16) .[216pts]
Heavy2 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Heavy3 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium Astra Militarum) [404pts]
Lord of War Shadowsword (390): volcano cannon (0) Twin heavy bolter (14pts) [404pts
This guy placed 120th (3L2W).
Spoiler:
Spearhead Detachment, Tallarn Regiment [1548 points] + 1 CP HQ 1: Tank Commander (167), Battle Cannon (22), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Plasma Cannons (30) - WARLORD - Grand Strategist.- Relic- Kurovs Aquila [239PTS]
HQ 2: Tank Commander (167), Punisher Gatling Cannon (20), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Heavy Bolters (16)- [223PTS]
Elites 1: Tech Priest Enginseer (30), Laspistol (0), Servo-arm (12)- [42PTS]
Elites 2: Master of Ordnance (30), Laspistol (0), Artillery Barrage (0)- [30PTS]
Heavy support 1: 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (366), 3 Battle Cannons (66), Hull Heavy Bolters (24)- [456PTS]
Heavy Support 2: 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (244), 2 Exterminator Autocannons (50), 2 Hull Heavy Bolters (16), 2 Pairs Sponson Heavy Bolters (32)- [342PTS]
Heavy Support 3: Hydra (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
Heavy Support 4: Basilisk (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
How are you quantifying this? We just came off Shooty Tyrant and Fire Raptor spam, which was on the heels of Reaper spam, which followed RG stormraven/gunlines.
Nobody taking pure gunlines is patently false - we agree that it is not a meta regardless.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/22 17:23:20
Arachnofiend wrote: You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
8th place is pure guard.
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
I think what is getting blurred here is the idea that if it's not a "pure gunline" there is no gunline... pure gunlines definitely increased. But any good tournament list takes the best for every phase of the game, and so many of the top lists are still mostly gunline with some fast or assault element. If you want to call it a "hybrid" ok fine, but the pure gunlines, and partial gunline / hybrids dramatically increased.
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
Lasguns do not a gunline make. The majority of concerns were AM taking huge screens and pummeling with as many basilisks, lrbts, manticores, and mortars that they could stuff in there. That did not materialize as an issue at all.
Bigger and yellow somehow changes the meaning of numbers?
By your argument let's ignore the 9 pure Custodes lists... 19 Custodes allies... that's still less than just the number of pure IG lists.
Yes Custodes + IG was very popular, soup is so far from dead. Next you'll be counting the number of Custodes wounds to make your point?
Whether you choose to ignore it or not, this is a meta shift towards more gunlines... yes there's other stuff sprinkled in, but way way more gunlines.
Oh boy. You're fun. You're still ignoring everything else.
A gunline is defined by what does the work, right?
The AM in 1st and 3rd are objectively not gunlines. #8 is a gunline.
This guy took 93rd (3W2L) with most of his points coming from his last win against...another super heavy gunline (so he probably got first turn).
Spoiler:
Player Name Stuart Woolls
Army Faction Astra Militarum 144
TOTAL CP 8 (Battle forged 3 + Battalion 5 + Super heavy aux 0)
Total Army 2000pts
Bataillon Detachment, Regimental Doctrine: Catachan (1596 points) +5CP
HQ1 Tank Commander (167):Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) : Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
HQ2 Tank Commander (167) Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
Troop1 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol -[40pts]
Troop2 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol-[40pts]
Troop3 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword,Laspistol-[40pts]
Elite1 Bullgryns 4 (140) 2 x Brute shield (1 on Bone head 0) 2 x Slabshield (0) 4 x Bullgryn Maul (24) -[168pts]
Elite2 Sergeant Harker (50) Lead From the Front, Warlord-[50pts]
Fast1 Hellhound (73) Heavy Flamer (17), Heavy Stubber (4), Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon (20) [114pts]
Fast2 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Fast3 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Heavy1 2 x Basilisks (200)]. 2 x Heavy Bolter (16) .[216pts]
Heavy2 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Heavy3 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium Astra Militarum) [404pts]
Lord of War Shadowsword (390): volcano cannon (0) Twin heavy bolter (14pts) [404pts
This guy placed 120th (3L2W).
Spoiler:
Spearhead Detachment, Tallarn Regiment [1548 points] + 1 CP HQ 1: Tank Commander (167), Battle Cannon (22), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Plasma Cannons (30) - WARLORD - Grand Strategist.- Relic- Kurovs Aquila [239PTS]
HQ 2: Tank Commander (167), Punisher Gatling Cannon (20), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Heavy Bolters (16)- [223PTS]
Elites 1: Tech Priest Enginseer (30), Laspistol (0), Servo-arm (12)- [42PTS]
Elites 2: Master of Ordnance (30), Laspistol (0), Artillery Barrage (0)- [30PTS]
Heavy support 1: 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (366), 3 Battle Cannons (66), Hull Heavy Bolters (24)- [456PTS]
Heavy Support 2: 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (244), 2 Exterminator Autocannons (50), 2 Hull Heavy Bolters (16), 2 Pairs Sponson Heavy Bolters (32)- [342PTS]
Heavy Support 3: Hydra (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
Heavy Support 4: Basilisk (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
How are you quantifying this? We just came off Shooty Tyrant and Fire Raptor spam, which was on the heels of Reaper spam, which followed RG stormraven/gunlines.
Nobody taking pure gunlines is patently false - we agree that it is not a meta regardless.
I have no idea what the point of this entire rant was? ...to prove that "pure" gunlines are not "OP"? - that seems to be your goal, but I never even suggested that.
And "a gunline is defined by what does the work, right?" -- uhh what? ...a Basilisk can still fight in the assault phase, are you suggesting that it is not a gunline unit?
What about an entire army of stand and shoot screens and tanks, with 3 Blood Angel characters?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 18:03:11
Arachnofiend wrote: You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
8th place is pure guard.
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
I think what is getting blurred here is the idea that if it's not a "pure gunline" there is no gunline... pure gunlines definitely increased. But any good tournament list takes the best for every phase of the game, and so many of the top lists are still mostly gunline with some fast or assault element. If you want to call it a "hybrid" ok fine, but the pure gunlines, and partial gunline / hybrids dramatically increased.
Yep. Which is a pretty dang similar meta to what the tournament scene looked like before the deep strike nerf...substituting a fast assault element for a deep strike assault element.
Just the fact that the top three lists at this tournament are *highly suspiciously similar* to the top lists we saw at tournaments before the big FAQ dropped should really be an indicator as to what's actually substantially changed in competitive play as a result of the FAQ. Some competitive list elements have been reduced or stripped away (Blood Angels, the super-soupyness of eldar, Daemons) but most of what was good before is good after.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
Lasguns do not a gunline make. The majority of concerns were AM taking huge screens and pummeling with as many basilisks, lrbts, manticores, and mortars that they could stuff in there. That did not materialize as an issue at all.
More asking for the purposes of this discussion. If someone is going to argue there is a prevalence of gunlines, I'm curious how they define a gunline. There are a lot of shooty armies in the lists that could be argued for or against.
I have no idea what the point of this entire rant was? ...to prove that "pure" gunlines are not "OP"? - that seems to be your goal, but I never even suggested that.
You said:
I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
Which to me implies that gunlines are going to dominate the meta. They didn't. The #8 player only fought gunlines himself aside from his loss to the Nid player with dakkafexes and genestealers/neophytes.
You could make the case that gunline/melee hybrids is the meta, but I don't really see the point of that. It matches none of the gunline hysteria post FAQ.
And "a gunline is defined by what does the work, right?" -- uhh what? ...a Basilisk can still fight in the assault phase, are you suggesting that it is not a gunline unit?
I'm not even sure how you came to the conclusion from my words. 30 lasguns, mortars, and custard bikes is not a gunline. The "work" is done by the bikes who do have guns (it is the future after all), but do more damage in melee. No such army will stand back like a hat trick of basilisks and just shoot their guns.
What about an entire army of stand and shoot screens and tanks, with 3 Blood Angel characters?
Those are gunlines, because the BA are there to stop bananas and DPs. There is a distinct difference spending over 1,000 points on bikes than a few hundred of BA among a huge blob of IG.
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
Lasguns do not a gunline make. The majority of concerns were AM taking huge screens and pummeling with as many basilisks, lrbts, manticores, and mortars that they could stuff in there. That did not materialize as an issue at all.
I have no idea what the point of this entire rant was? ...to prove that "pure" gunlines are not "OP"? - that seems to be your goal, but I never even suggested that.
You said:
I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
Which to me implies that gunlines are going to dominate the meta. They didn't. The #8 player only fought gunlines himself aside from his loss to the Nid player with dakkafexes and genestealers/neophytes.
You could make the case that gunline/melee hybrids is the meta, but I don't really see the point of that. It matches none of the gunline hysteria post FAQ.
And "a gunline is defined by what does the work, right?" -- uhh what? ...a Basilisk can still fight in the assault phase, are you suggesting that it is not a gunline unit?
I'm not even sure how you came to the conclusion from my words. 30 lasguns, mortars, and custard bikes is not a gunline. The "work" is done by the bikes who do have guns (it is the future after all), but do more damage in melee. No such army will stand back like a hat trick of basilisks and just shoot their guns.
What about an entire army of stand and shoot screens and tanks, with 3 Blood Angel characters?
Those are gunlines, because the BA are there to stop bananas and DPs. There is a distinct difference spending over 1,000 points on bikes than a few hundred of BA among a huge blob of IG.
So now we're getting somewhere but again you're making assumptions and ignoring the right numbers... I never said anything about "dominating" the meta, I never said pure gunlines were OP. Also sure, those fewer lists, that were mostly Custodes with some small "gunline" element have their "work" done mostly by the Custodes bikes; but we're certainly seeing more and more "gunline" - elements, big "work" or small, included in armies than at any other time in 40k... and further... again, you can count detachments or wounds or whatever you want, but IG had the biggest majority of units/armies in the event by a staggering amount.
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
Lasguns do not a gunline make. The majority of concerns were AM taking huge screens and pummeling with as many basilisks, lrbts, manticores, and mortars that they could stuff in there. That did not materialize as an issue at all.
I still think it's because of time limit. Make tournaments three rounds with 5 hours per round, and the IG roll, imo.
The loss condition for most of these IG lists that I've seen is "Screens get swept aside, melee alpha units jump in and tie up the biggest guns". With the character-heavy imperium soup stuff, there's almost no way for the gunline list to not engage in a "screen v screen" fight because they can't target the custard bikers, then the bikers zip across the board when basilisks are exposed and tie them up. That's also why you see so many autarch bikers, they're doing the same thing (albeit with a worse model) but it's similarly effective because once you've got an artillery vehicle tied up, it might as well be dead for game purposes.
What difference does two turns of fall back - charge - overwatch - melee units attack make here? Once the gunline is tied up, they can't table AND they can't score. so how do they suddenly dominate given 5 turn games?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
/ BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
