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Northern85Star wrote:
Ironically, the guys calling anti-FW players “manchilds” are truly the manchilds themselves.

"I'm not a loser, YOU'RE a loser!"

Northern85Star wrote:
FW makes this possible. I’ve played games like these, and even though im winning, i completely tune out due to boredom. Better to boycut FW than argue about what amount of FW is ok/fun/balanced.

Yeah, man, when I'm winning all my games and all the hot chicks are hanging out on me and I'm flexing my big biceps, I don't even, like, care what's on the table. Killed a Warhound with two Primaris Marines and an Armorium Cherub, breh.

"Boycott" it all you want. You not buying it isn't going to make it stop being a part of the game, dude. You're just limiting your own experiences, and as I said before- the sort of people who flip out about these models for whatever silly reason... well, generally them wanting to avoid my game is a blessing to me. Not a lost opportunity at all. The trash taking itself out, so to speak.

Northern85Star wrote:
And to the manchilds: the existance of underpowered FW models means NOTHING in this regard, and only your wife cares about how much money you wasted. The ideal game is balanced and determined on the battlefield - FW gives room for too much upscaling. And i agree there’s a bad trend of GW slowly upscaling as well.

>It's overpowered
>But so is GW stuff
>OK not all FW is OP but whatever
>LOL you wasted your money

Northern85Star wrote:
PS: i still play against FW models, but i recognize that the game would be more fun without them. No one i play against field anything but the OP stuff.

*Bane Voice*

"For You"

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
Ironically, the guys calling anti-FW players “manchilds” are truly the manchilds themselves.

"I'm not a loser, YOU'RE a loser!"

Northern85Star wrote:
FW makes this possible. I’ve played games like these, and even though im winning, i completely tune out due to boredom. Better to boycut FW than argue about what amount of FW is ok/fun/balanced.

Yeah, man, when I'm winning all my games and all the hot chicks are hanging out on me and I'm flexing my big biceps, I don't even, like, care what's on the table. Killed a Warhound with two Primaris Marines and an Armorium Cherub, breh.

Northern85Star wrote:
And to the manchilds: the existance of underpowered FW models means NOTHING in this regard, and only your wife cares about how much money you wasted. The ideal game is balanced and determined on the battlefield - FW gives room for too much upscaling. And i agree there’s a bad trend of GW slowly upscaling as well.

>It's overpowered
>But so is GW stuff
>OK not all FW is OP but whatever
>LOL you wasted your money

Northern85Star wrote:
PS: i still play against FW models, but i recognize that the game would be more fun without them. No one i play against field anything but the OP stuff.

*Bane Voice*

"For You"

Actually you could've sent him to Page 2 to my Initial post regarding perception but i guess you can also answer all this again.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually you could've sent him to Page 2 to my Initial post regarding perception but i guess you can also answer all this again.

I'm here for you, decent chocolate man.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually you could've sent him to Page 2 to my Initial post regarding perception but i guess you can also answer all this again.

I'm here for you, decent chocolate man.

Gottvertammi hör doch uf mit de Schoggi

I will give you an promotion and name one of my R&h commanders after you if you translate it into english.

Northern85Star wrote:Ironically, the guys calling anti-FW players “manchilds” are truly the manchilds themselves. FW FEEDS the manchilds, by giving them the choice to field the biggest, baddest unkillable unit, then completely disregard victory points, instead aiming solely at annihilation. Their opponent, fielding a balanced list, quickly realizes that about 40% of their list that is dedicated anti-infantry and/or melee effectively can only be used to capture objectives when facing this warhound titan scout (or similar). So, if there’s enough terrain on the board for him to avoid combat for 6 turns, he wins. Was it fun? No, it was BORING as hell. Was it fun for the FW manchild? YES! Killing models is much more fun than scoring victory points, if forced to only pick one, as in this instance basically.

FW makes this possible. I’ve played games like these, and even though im winning, i completely tune out due to boredom. Better to boycut FW than argue about what amount of FW is ok/fun/balanced.

And to the manchilds: the existance of underpowered FW models means NOTHING in this regard, and only your wife cares about how much money you wasted. The ideal game is balanced and determined on the battlefield - FW gives room for too much upscaling. And i agree there’s a bad trend of GW slowly upscaling as well.

PS: i still play against FW models, but i recognize that the game would be more fun without them. No one i play against field anything but the OP stuff.

And, if GW were to hypothetically have more OP units than Forge World, would you boycott them too?



I do hope that you enjoy your boycott of GW.

Logical conclusion is logical.
I mean the whole let's go bigger and bader in normal games is only Gw's problem. They were the ones to introduce LoW, Primarchs and other huge stuff into baseline 40k.
Yet that guy is blameing Fw as if Fw would've forced the hands of GW at gun point.
Actually the more i think that text through the more i belive that he was trolling.
If so GG wp no re.
Lords of War, sry typo.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually the more i think that text through the more i belive that he was trolling

I'd hope so. It's the only rational explanation for that line of thought.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I mean the whole let's go bigger and bader in normal games is only Gw's problem. They were the ones to introduce LoS, Primarchs and other huge stuff into baseline 40k.

Yeah, whinging about a few 'pretty decent' vehicles and the like is pretty sad when people actually bring Bobby G and 2 Knights to a 'friendly game'.. yeah, that's credible.

I mean it was the same case when malfics were op. Every powergamer just had to spam them, just like every powergamer spams knights and or Rowboat and or knights. At this point we should just ban powergamers and hard lists, infact we should ban everything except tac marines and CSM. /S

Not Online!!! wrote:
I mean it was the same case when malfics were op. Every powergamer just had to spam them, just like every powergamer spams knights and or Rowboat and or knights. At this point we should just ban powergamers and hard lists, infact we should ban everything except tac marines and CSM. /S

Yeah, the tools WAAC players and Powergamers use will change every edition. Forge World, GW, whatever it may be- they will always find a tool to exploit something. The best policy is to get to know people a bit in your gaming area (if possible) and just avoid the scummy players.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I mean it was the same case when malfics were op. Every powergamer just had to spam them, just like every powergamer spams knights and or Rowboat and or knights. At this point we should just ban powergamers and hard lists, infact we should ban everything except tac marines and CSM. /S

Yeah, the tools WAAC players and Powergamers use will change every edition. Forge World, GW, whatever it may be- they will always find a tool to exploit something. The best policy is to get to know people a bit in your gaming area (if possible) and just avoid the scummy players.

If that guy is bringing a triptide taudar or gladius army, he probably isn't one to complain about a few FW models. In fact, I doubt he'd complain about much anything you'd bring - he knows exactly where it lies on the power level. IMHO it's by far and wide the least-informed people who complain the most. I had a buddy who infamously complained that Necrons didn't "get enough rerolls" in 7E. There will always be people who irrationally kvetch and moan about stupid things and try to ruin the experience for you. Don't let them.

Most anti-FW guys are just jealous of your toys and want to make you feel like your purchase was wasted.

It's the same reason little Timmy from grade school was saying your new bike was junk until he got one the next day. Then it was a cool bike to have.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
There will always be people who irrationally kvetch and moan about stupid things and try to ruin the experience for you. Don't let them.

You sir, are 100% on point.

40k is absurdly packed full of people who do exactly that. Yes, there are some legitimate gripes and complaints about 40k. Yes, some people are entitled to dislike certain things. I'm all for that. But it can get discouraging to players to see that every place online where 40k players gather, there's more wailing and moaning and bitterness than you'd find in a refugee camp.

My best friend is a 40k player as well. He absolutely refuses to interact with the greater community online and is hesitant about approaching a lot of people in the local FLGS where he lives. Why? Because based on what you see on the internet... 40k is 10% playing the game, 20% assembling and painting models, 10% reading fluff and rules, 30% complaining about your army, 30% complaining about everyone else's army.

I can't say I blame him. But then again, he is far less tolerant of whining than I am.

Wow. OK, so there's a lot of strawmanning and ignorance happening in this thread, so I thought I would add fuel to the fire.

Firstly, I am anti-FW units in most games. It's pretty easy to see why actually. It can benefit certain armies much more than others, and widen the "choice gap", that is, the number of available, good units and army has from a gap to a chasm. It wouldn't make much sense to agree to a rule that gives your opponent a significant advantage over you in each game.

Secondly, we know that GW and FW don't communicate well between each other. Just look at some of the 8th ed launch rules from FW. They aren't really able ti include FW units in strategems and rules because GW designs their game around only GW units. FW units to me are the same as adding superheavies, and should be saved for larger games.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Most anti-FW guys are just jealous of your toys and want to make you feel like your purchase was wasted.

We had a local that was this way. Someone would show up with a cool new fun toy, and this dude would sit and look at- and you could actually hear him breathing heavily through his nose like a displeased, jealous dog- and he would immediately start in about how it was 'not worth the points' or 'I wouldn't have bought that'. And then he'd want to play you, tailor a list to specifically target you new toy/toys, take the model/models out of the game, and then pretend he was getting a phone call to go home to his significant other- and spend the next day bragging about how he blew up/wiped out your new stuff.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:
Firstly, I am anti-FW units in most games. It's pretty easy to see why actually. It can benefit certain armies much more than others, and widen the "choice gap", that is, the number of available, good units and army has from a gap to a chasm. It wouldn't make much sense to agree to a rule that gives your opponent a significant advantage over you in each game.

Show me what Forge World unit gives someone a 'significant advantage' and show me how Games Workshop has no models or rules that do the exact same thing elsewhere.

Are you going to sit here and insinuate that- GASP- 40k has armies that are vastly different and perform differently on the tabletop, and some have been given more than others? YOU DON'T SAY.

Go on, show me which Forge World models are 'game-breaking' and how GW has absolutely none of them.

JFC, you guys act like acquiring Forge World models requires you to be in the damned Illuminati or be a certain skin color.

Darsath wrote:
Wow. OK, so there's a lot of strawmanning and ignorance happening in this thread, so I thought I would add fuel to the fire.

So you see a house fire and your reaction is to go pouring petrol on it?

I like the way you think.

Firstly, I am anti-FW units in most games. It's pretty easy to see why actually. It can benefit certain armies much more than others, and widen the "choice gap", that is, the number of available, good units and army has from a gap to a chasm. It wouldn't make much sense to agree to a rule that gives your opponent a significant advantage over you in each game.

GW Codexes benefit certain armies much more than others as well. This is not a FW-exclusive issue that would be improved by removing FW.

There’s no denying that the Space Marine and Grey Knight Codexes are two of the weakest Codexes (outside of Guilliman, and even he’s not the bee’s knees competitively anymore). 1/4 of the FW books is giving these underpowered armies access to a couple of mediocre-to-decent Dreadnoughts, a couple of mediocre-to-decent vehicles, a couple of same-same-but-different Special Characters, and some esoteric variations on tanks like the Land Raider, which competes with the Monolith for the most overpriced, undereffective vehicle in a Codex. It also gives them access to Lords of War, which would be nice since it’d catch them up to the GW Codexes that contain Lords of War if it weren’t for their terrifying post-CA price tags.

Another quarter of the books gives Chaos access to the same things, but as Chaos is natively so much stronger than SM and GK, it doesn’t make them better so much as more varied.

A third quarter gives Guard a big pile of esoteric options... none of which are as good as what’s in their Codex. If anything, FW weakens the strongest Codex in the game. It also gives Imperial Knights (a weak army) some more options, which aren’t particularly great but at least give them a bit of a helping hand.

The final quarter is Xenos. The Aeldari are similar to the Guard in that they have very strong Codexes, and their FW options don’t really add anything but variety. T’au and Necrons are medium books that get some medium options - it doesn’t make them stronger, only more varied (outside of the Y’vahra, which is just broken). Orks are just given the opportunity to try and run something that isn’t a horde of Boyz. Tyranids... seem to be a bit of a mixed bag.

So no, I don’t see any merit to the ‘rich get richer’ argument of widening the chasm. If anything, the rich get the option to swap their black Mercedes for a silver Mercedes, the poor get the option to buy an old, worn-out Mercedes or to trade their old bomb for a working car, and those in the middle get the option to trade their Ford for a Chevy.

Secondly, we know that GW and FW don't communicate well between each other. Just look at some of the 8th ed launch rules from FW. They aren't really able ti include FW units in strategems and rules because GW designs their game around only GW units.

I mean you could certainly argue this to be true, but how exactly does your opponent not being allowed to use a Stratagem on his FW unit negatively impact your game? How does a lack of communication between the two arms of GW negatively affect your day-to-day gaming in a way that would be solved by removing one of those arms?

FW units to me are the same as adding superheavies, and should be saved for larger games.

I don’t see the equivalence here at all. A superheavy locks down the game by creating a heavy skew in one list towards armour, invalidating or at least undermining a significant portion of their opponent’s list and stopping them interacting with it. How does using a Stygies pattern Vanquisher over a (?)Mars pattern Vanquisher, or a Land Raider with Multi-Maltas instead of Lascannons or a Relic Contemptor instead of a normal Contemptor do that in any way?

Some people see ‘ForgeWorld’ and think ‘Titans’. In a catalog of hundreds of models, FW has...7 Titans? 10 counting identical Chaos versions of the 3 Imperial ones? If you don’t want to play Titans, say ‘no Titans’, not ‘no FW’.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Yeah, whinging about a few 'pretty decent' vehicles and the like is pretty sad when people actually bring Bobby G and 2 Knights to a 'friendly game'.. yeah, that's credible.

You know, you could... refuse to play games with those people

Most people can handle rejection and won't freak out on you lmfao

Skaorn wrote:
You know, you could... refuse to play games with those people

Most people can handle rejection and won't freak out on you lmfao

I generally am honest. "Hey, dude, I didn't bring an army to bring that down. It'd just be too boring." Unless it's a tournament, where I don't have that option.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Show me what Forge World unit gives someone a 'significant advantage' and show me how Games Workshop has no models or rules that do the exact same thing elsewhere.

Are you going to sit here and insinuate that- GASP- 40k has armies that are vastly different and perform differently on the tabletop, and some have been given more than others? YOU DON'T SAY.

Go on, show me which Forge World models are 'game-breaking' and how GW has absolutely none of them.

JFC, you guys act like acquiring Forge World models requires you to be in the damned Illuminati or be a certain skin color.

Lets say you play eldar, and you built your army to stack negative to hit modifiers. You do your thing and say my grav tanks and my flyers are now -3 to hit. I come along with my relic sicaran battle tanks which ignores all modifiers to hit when attacking FLY units. I can even advance and shoot with its assault autocannon, which would be -4 to hit you. The sicaran gun ignores all of it. No GW model has an ability like that.
Or my relic contemptor dreadnought comes along, with its twin fists and twin assault plasma blastguns. And because i have twin fists i can re-roll hit rolls of 1. That means i can safely overcharge my plasma blastguns. No GW dread has an ability/gun combination like that.
Or how about my 5 assault drills pop out from the ground, dealing 5 MW to all enemy units within 12" ? Not only that, next turn my assault and/or devastator centurions pop out 3" away from it, move 4", and charge ? No GW transport can do that.
Or how about my 5 lucius pattern drop pods dropping dreads close to you ? No GW drop pod can do that.
Im pretty sure 3 dual storm cannon leviathans are devastating. There is no GW dread which comes even close to one of them.

 p5freak wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Show me what Forge World unit gives someone a 'significant advantage' and show me how Games Workshop has no models or rules that do the exact same thing elsewhere.

Are you going to sit here and insinuate that- GASP- 40k has armies that are vastly different and perform differently on the tabletop, and some have been given more than others? YOU DON'T SAY.

Go on, show me which Forge World models are 'game-breaking' and how GW has absolutely none of them.

JFC, you guys act like acquiring Forge World models requires you to be in the damned Illuminati or be a certain skin color.

Lets say you play eldar, and you built your army to stack negative to hit modifiers. You do your thing and say my grav tanks and my flyers are now -3 to hit. I come along with my relic sicaran battle tanks which ignores all modifiers to hit when attacking FLY units. I can even advance and shoot with its assault autocannon, which would be -4 to hit you. The sicaran gun ignores all of it. No GW model has an ability like that.
Or my relic contemptor dreadnought comes along, with its twin fists and twin assault plasma blastguns. And because i have twin fists i can re-roll hit rolls of 1. That means i can safely overcharge my plasma blastguns. No GW dread has an ability/gun combination like that.
Or how about my 5 assault drills pop out from the ground, dealing 5 MW to all enemy units within 12" ? Not only that, next turn my assault and/or devastator centurions pop out 3" away from it, move 4", and charge ? No GW transport can do that.
Or how about my 5 lucius pattern drop pods dropping dreads close to you ? No GW drop pod can do that.
Im pretty sure 3 dual storm cannon leviathans are devastating. There is no GW dread which comes even close to one of them.

Ok , let's see:
Your first exemple vs the Sicarian is basically: The really needed AA option vs the, what i atleast have dubbed, LOLZ you can't hit me army.
So this is a tank that is good against flyers and only really flyers. Suprprise surprise he can hit you. HOWEVER that tank costs barebones 160pts + an additional 75 for it's cannon. (btw that cannon has only 8 shots, if you army is in danger of beeing wiped out by 8 shots that ignore your spam of - bs then by god i can only say you fethed up in list building.)
Secondly so there is a option, which more or less shuts down an army, that is neither fair nor fun to play against, because literally 1/2 of the combat is not happening against anything that is not a space moron in a armour. So you would rather see such an army from GW, that literally makes the enemy skip a whole phase and then deny him the other pahse also because Eldarjetbikes. However i am certain that 8 shots alone are not enough to do that, and the Sicarian is not a freaking leman russ now isn't it? so even that point is moot because it can't shut down this army.
.

Oh and now comes the argument: their dreads are OP compared to normal dreads.
Tough luck, because GW dreads always were bad, well atleast in 5th and in 7th and now in 8th so long my memory serves right. However FW would not have been forced to release such dreads that way, which btw is highly arguable because the supposedly "way better" option comes with a pricetag that really, REALLY, hurts sometimes. So even that is arguable.
Heck even a Decimator is basically not jusifyable to take except when you spam soulburners, and that thing is in this case a glass cannon and needs constant babysitting frim a warpsmith to survive up to t3.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also GW has only Hydras as a AA option in the game, so basically every other faction that is not Chaos (needs to get through with a psytest and that certainly is no easy feat against an Eldar.) or Imperium can go feth themselves right when that Eldar army shows up?
Right sure, that makes for a fun match surely everybody in the shop will congratulate you for playing that Eldar Army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the assult drill, experimental rules from FW / GW were always broken, i bet they will get FAQ'ed fast and hard, so just don't be "THAT GUY" and spam them when they are that broken atm.

Northern85Star wrote:
Ironically, the guys calling anti-FW players “manchilds” are truly the manchilds themselves. FW FEEDS the manchilds, by giving them the choice to field the biggest, baddest unkillable unit, then completely disregard victory points, instead aiming solely at annihilation. Their opponent, fielding a balanced list, quickly realizes that about 40% of their list that is dedicated anti-infantry and/or melee effectively can only be used to capture objectives when facing this warhound titan scout (or similar). So, if there’s enough terrain on the board for him to avoid combat for 6 turns, he wins. Was it fun? No, it was BORING as hell. Was it fun for the FW manchild? YES! Killing models is much more fun than scoring victory points, if forced to only pick one, as in this instance basically.

FW makes this possible. I’ve played games like these, and even though im winning, i completely tune out due to boredom. Better to boycut FW than argue about what amount of FW is ok/fun/balanced.

And to the manchilds: the existance of underpowered FW models means NOTHING in this regard, and only your wife cares about how much money you wasted. The ideal game is balanced and determined on the battlefield - FW gives room for too much upscaling. And i agree there’s a bad trend of GW slowly upscaling as well.

PS: i still play against FW models, but i recognize that the game would be more fun without them. No one i play against field anything but the OP stuff.

Does this guy take fun balanced lists when he doesn't take FW or does he still take annoying skew lists?

I'm sorry your group has a bunch of donkey caves. Show me on your army list where the FW model touched you.

Guess he got beaten by the opponent after playing that eldar army.
Quite frankly i can't blame his opponent for doing that, if of course it ever happened.

 p5freak wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Show me what Forge World unit gives someone a 'significant advantage' and show me how Games Workshop has no models or rules that do the exact same thing elsewhere.

Are you going to sit here and insinuate that- GASP- 40k has armies that are vastly different and perform differently on the tabletop, and some have been given more than others? YOU DON'T SAY.

Go on, show me which Forge World models are 'game-breaking' and how GW has absolutely none of them.

JFC, you guys act like acquiring Forge World models requires you to be in the damned Illuminati or be a certain skin color.

Lets say you play eldar, and you built your army to stack negative to hit modifiers. You do your thing and say my grav tanks and my flyers are now -3 to hit. I come along with my relic sicaran battle tanks which ignores all modifiers to hit when attacking FLY units. I can even advance and shoot with its assault autocannon, which would be -4 to hit you. The sicaran gun ignores all of it. No GW model has an ability like that.
Or my relic contemptor dreadnought comes along, with its twin fists and twin assault plasma blastguns. And because i have twin fists i can re-roll hit rolls of 1. That means i can safely overcharge my plasma blastguns. No GW dread has an ability/gun combination like that.
Or how about my 5 assault drills pop out from the ground, dealing 5 MW to all enemy units within 12" ? Not only that, next turn my assault and/or devastator centurions pop out 3" away from it, move 4", and charge ? No GW transport can do that.
Or how about my 5 lucius pattern drop pods dropping dreads close to you ? No GW drop pod can do that.
Im pretty sure 3 dual storm cannon leviathans are devastating. There is no GW dread which comes even close to one of them.

3 Leviathan like that cost 1000 ish points. That's half your army. They should be devastating. Also, the Relic rule means you'll have to bring another 3 Heavy Support Choices just to balance them out.

Actually isn't that the same way with the Sicarian?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ok , let's see:
Your first exemple vs the Sicarian is basically: The really needed AA option vs the, what i atleast have dubbed, LOLZ you can't hit me army.
So this is a tank that is good against flyers and only really flyers. Suprprise surprise he can hit you. HOWEVER that tank costs barebones 160pts + an additional 75 for it's cannon. (btw that cannon has only 8 shots, if you army is in danger of beeing wiped out by 8 shots that ignore your spam of - bs then by god i can only say you fethed up in list building.)
Secondly so there is a option, which more or less shuts down an army, that is neither fair nor fun to play against, because literally 1/2 of the combat is not happening against anything that is not a space moron in a armour. So you would rather see such an army from GW, that literally makes the enemy skip a whole phase and then deny him the other pahse also because Eldarjetbikes. However i am certain that 8 shots alone are not enough to do that, and the Sicarian is not a freaking leman russ now isn't it? so even that point is moot because it can't shut down this army.
.

The sicaran is only 165 pts. Its points were already changed in chapter approved. Read the rules Its ignore modifiers works against anything with the FLY keyword, not only flyers. And it can also shoot non-FLY units normally (no minus to hit, like the stalker for example), modifiers apply as usual.

Not Online!!! wrote:

As for the assult drill, experimental rules from FW / GW were always broken, i bet they will get FAQ'ed fast and hard, so just don't be "THAT GUY" and spam them when they are that broken atm.

Of course, FW is known for fixing broken rules fast


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Banville wrote:

3 Leviathan like that cost 1000 ish points. That's half your army. They should be devastating. Also, the Relic rule means you'll have to bring another 3 Heavy Support Choices just to balance them out.

3 leviathans with twin storm cannons are 927 pts. 3 dev squads with a HB are 225 pts. Balancing done.

 p5freak wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Show me what Forge World unit gives someone a 'significant advantage' and show me how Games Workshop has no models or rules that do the exact same thing elsewhere.

Are you going to sit here and insinuate that- GASP- 40k has armies that are vastly different and perform differently on the tabletop, and some have been given more than others? YOU DON'T SAY.

Go on, show me which Forge World models are 'game-breaking' and how GW has absolutely none of them.

JFC, you guys act like acquiring Forge World models requires you to be in the damned Illuminati or be a certain skin color.

Lets say you play eldar, and you built your army to stack negative to hit modifiers. You do your thing and say my grav tanks and my flyers are now -3 to hit. I come along with my relic sicaran battle tanks which ignores all modifiers to hit when attacking FLY units. I can even advance and shoot with its assault autocannon, which would be -4 to hit you. The sicaran gun ignores all of it. No GW model has an ability like that.
Or my relic contemptor dreadnought comes along, with its twin fists and twin assault plasma blastguns. And because i have twin fists i can re-roll hit rolls of 1. That means i can safely overcharge my plasma blastguns. No GW dread has an ability/gun combination like that.
Or how about my 5 assault drills pop out from the ground, dealing 5 MW to all enemy units within 12" ? Not only that, next turn my assault and/or devastator centurions pop out 3" away from it, move 4", and charge ? No GW transport can do that.
Or how about my 5 lucius pattern drop pods dropping dreads close to you ? No GW drop pod can do that.
Im pretty sure 3 dual storm cannon leviathans are devastating. There is no GW dread which comes even close to one of them.

You are not helping alot of the anti-forgeworld diatribe here. GW releases just as much, if not more overpowered rules as forgeworld. The -3 to hit eldar list would be a PRIME example.
Nothing in any forgeworld index list comes close to being that cheese.

I remember just recently in 7th edition, CSM couldnt even hope to compete without forgeworld units. It literally made the army work. because in 20 years GW has not seen fit to produce a rule for CSM drop pods.Forgeworld had to do it. Nevermind you have to pay 300 points to even get one.

Malific spam sucked at the opening of 8th, but that has been fixed by not only a point increase but smite spam getting gutted in the rules. And the only demon lord who was underpriced was the magic chicken. Now they are priced so high that no one will ever put one on the table. The very fact that the units are in chapter approved tells you something about the legality of forgeworld.


Edit, also here is a fun fact. If forgeworld was not available then CSM would be one of the few armies with no flyers. The helldrake is a quasi-flyer with no hard to hit or supersonic rules.

 p5freak wrote:

Lets say you play eldar, and you built your army to stack negative to hit modifiers. You do your thing and say my grav tanks and my flyers are now -3 to hit. I come along with my relic sicaran battle tanks which ignores all modifiers to hit when attacking FLY units. I can even advance and shoot with its assault autocannon, which would be -4 to hit you. The sicaran gun ignores all of it. No GW model has an ability like that.

ah yes FW has tools to counter at least a bit of GW's even more OP stuff and htat's bad.

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ok , let's see:
Your first exemple vs the Sicarian is basically: The really needed AA option vs the, what i atleast have dubbed, LOLZ you can't hit me army.
So this is a tank that is good against flyers and only really flyers. Suprprise surprise he can hit you. HOWEVER that tank costs barebones 160pts + an additional 75 for it's cannon. (btw that cannon has only 8 shots, if you army is in danger of beeing wiped out by 8 shots that ignore your spam of - bs then by god i can only say you fethed up in list building.)
Secondly so there is a option, which more or less shuts down an army, that is neither fair nor fun to play against, because literally 1/2 of the combat is not happening against anything that is not a space moron in a armour. So you would rather see such an army from GW, that literally makes the enemy skip a whole phase and then deny him the other pahse also because Eldarjetbikes. However i am certain that 8 shots alone are not enough to do that, and the Sicarian is not a freaking leman russ now isn't it? so even that point is moot because it can't shut down this army.
.

The sicaran is only 165 pts. Its points were already changed in chapter approved. Read the rules Its ignore modifiers works against anything with the FLY keyword, not only flyers. And it can also shoot non-FLY units normally (no minus to hit, like the stalker for example), modifiers apply as usual.

Not Online!!! wrote:

As for the assult drill, experimental rules from FW / GW were always broken, i bet they will get FAQ'ed fast and hard, so just don't be "THAT GUY" and spam them when they are that broken atm.

Of course, FW is known for fixing broken rules fast


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Banville wrote:

3 Leviathan like that cost 1000 ish points. That's half your army. They should be devastating. Also, the Relic rule means you'll have to bring another 3 Heavy Support Choices just to balance them out.

3 leviathans with twin storm cannons are 927 pts. 3 dev squads with a HB are 225 pts. Balancing done.

Yep. Balancing done. 1152 points on your heavy support alone. In a 2000pt game? Also, dual stormcannons will murder anything out to 24" but are surprisingly easy to shut down. The dread loses an attack per shoot arm. So it goes down to 2 Ap0 attacks against anything in melee.

I'm not saying the model isn't effective. Nor am I saying that bringing 3 of them to anything except a tourney might raise eyebrows. But a single Leviathan, even a dual stormcannon one, in an otherwise soft list isn't game breaking.

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ok , let's see:
Your first exemple vs the Sicarian is basically: The really needed AA option vs the, what i atleast have dubbed, LOLZ you can't hit me army.
So this is a tank that is good against flyers and only really flyers. Suprprise surprise he can hit you. HOWEVER that tank costs barebones 160pts + an additional 75 for it's cannon. (btw that cannon has only 8 shots, if you army is in danger of beeing wiped out by 8 shots that ignore your spam of - bs then by god i can only say you fethed up in list building.)
Secondly so there is a option, which more or less shuts down an army, that is neither fair nor fun to play against, because literally 1/2 of the combat is not happening against anything that is not a space moron in a armour. So you would rather see such an army from GW, that literally makes the enemy skip a whole phase and then deny him the other pahse also because Eldarjetbikes. However i am certain that 8 shots alone are not enough to do that, and the Sicarian is not a freaking leman russ now isn't it? so even that point is moot because it can't shut down this army.
.

The sicaran is only 165 pts. Its points were already changed in chapter approved. Read the rules Its ignore modifiers works against anything with the FLY keyword, not only flyers. And it can also shoot non-FLY units normally (no minus to hit, like the stalker for example), modifiers apply as usual.

Not Online!!! wrote:

As for the assult drill, experimental rules from FW / GW were always broken, i bet they will get FAQ'ed fast and hard, so just don't be "THAT GUY" and spam them when they are that broken atm.

Of course, FW is known for fixing broken rules fast


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Banville wrote:

3 Leviathan like that cost 1000 ish points. That's half your army. They should be devastating. Also, the Relic rule means you'll have to bring another 3 Heavy Support Choices just to balance them out.

3 leviathans with twin storm cannons are 927 pts. 3 dev squads with a HB are 225 pts. Balancing done.

So CA ( an offical FAQ/ balance update for the whole 40k game) changed the Sicarian and other FW units. Some were buffed (Sicarian) and some got nerfed, (Rip daemons). Considering that it was a balancing update what shows that?
It shows that such fly eldar armies are prevalent and they did choose an indirect way of nerving supersonic -bs spam.
Quite frankly that total reduction seems off, but there is certainly no blame to be put torwards FW, because CA got made by GW.
Now i also wonder are you going to ignore the rest of my argument or are you just further complaining, that it is somehow FW's fault that Sicarians are now to cheap even though it was GW that changed the point values?
Same goes for Malefic lords, except in the other direction, they are now beyond useless, so one is literally forced to play a RPC (Rogue Psyker Coven)
But sure blame FW for actually forcing you to play some different slots via the Relic / Hellforged system and therfore forcing you to lower the spam. When was the last time GW did something like that?
PS: A sicarian is still a Relic/ Hellforged option, so you will need additional points for additional choices, which may or may not be good enough, in this case your Eldar Cheedar still will survive an encounter, but myabee now you would have to take
some minis of the table like every other player has to.
PPS: So you also will likely complain about Hydras too, because they also get 1+ against everything with the fly keyword? Also agian a GW tank btw?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/11/chapter-approved-points-leak/
So what does that mean, i wonder?
They did cut the cost for the accelerator cannon but making the Sicarians a bit more expensive. Still that is either a 155- 175 model and still only really usefull against "FLY" against everything else it bevaves like a predator with more dakka attached to it.

 p5freak wrote:


Lets say you play eldar, and you built your army to stack negative to hit modifiers. You do your thing and say my grav tanks and my flyers are now -3 to hit. I come along with my relic sicaran battle tanks which ignores all modifiers to hit when attacking FLY units. I can even advance and shoot with its assault autocannon, which would be -4 to hit you. The sicaran gun ignores all of it. No GW model has an ability like that.
Or my relic contemptor dreadnought comes along, with its twin fists and twin assault plasma blastguns. And because i have twin fists i can re-roll hit rolls of 1. That means i can safely overcharge my plasma blastguns. No GW dread has an ability/gun combination like that.
Or how about my 5 assault drills pop out from the ground, dealing 5 MW to all enemy units within 12" ? Not only that, next turn my assault and/or devastator centurions pop out 3" away from it, move 4", and charge ? No GW transport can do that.
Or how about my 5 lucius pattern drop pods dropping dreads close to you ? No GW drop pod can do that.
Im pretty sure 3 dual storm cannon leviathans are devastating. There is no GW dread which comes even close to one of them.

Ooooooh but I like this game! Let’s keep going!

Let’s say I stack an army-wide -1 to hit with a -1 to-hit unit and a -1 to hit psychic power and a -1 to hit Stratagem. I now have -4 to hit - leaving me invulnerable to everything but Custodes! There is no GW combination that comes even close to that.
Or say I take a unit that gives every model within a 6” bubble reroll all dice to both hit and wound, regardless of how powerful the units you can daisy chain into that bubble are. Then let’s put that power on a Character with 9 wounds so he can’t be targeted, and let’s give him T6/2+/3++. Oh! And let’s make him an absolute beat stick so he isn’t countered by combat. And if he dies, let’s give him a 3+ roll to come back to life! There is no GW that comes even close to that.
Next, why don’t I take a 90pt model with a 14” move with Fly, a 12-shot gun hitting on 2s with easy reroll access, T6/W4/2+/4++ with access to a -1 to hit, and 4 Attacks at Str6/AP-3/DmgD3 rerolling all wounds, and give them a Stratagem to Charge in the opponent’s turn and attack before chargers! There is no GW unit at anything like 90pts a model with that much mobility, durability and punch.
Oh! Here’s one! Let’s say I take a 400ish point superheavy tank with a 3D3 Str16/AP-5/Dmg2D6 gun hitting intended targets on 3s, rerolling 1s to Wound, and access to traits that either let it reroll the number of shots or reroll 1s to hit if it doesn’t move to shoot it’s 120” range gun. There is no GW unit with that kind of firepower south of four times that points value!


...wait, did I mix up GW and FW?


(Seriously though mate, using Eldar to-hit shenanigans to show that FW is overpowered and abusive compared to GW was a poor idea. Akin to drenching yourself in fish guts and wading into a shark pen.)