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 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So royal council sucks then? Your opinion was different a month ago. We've come back to you trying to justify free buffs for the army you play that you wouldn't support for other armies.

I think you're letting earlier interactions color this one. First, I'm totally on board with the Royal Council. Nowhere in here have I said it sucks.

I said that half of the +4 that you mentioned is on the Soulscryer. The Soulscryer is a character that has one purpose, effectively: To bring in some hardhitting stuff as a 'deep strike' contingent and to make sure that stuff can almost guarantee its charge(since "Seeker of Souls" happens at the start of the Charge phase rather than Hero). Having him on the table at the start of the game is a problem.

Now, sure you can bring along 'spare' Soulscryers for the purposes of gaming the system--but you could also write it in so that this ability could only be triggered at High Tide. We have two different Command Abilities that have the same thing, some Warlord Traits, etc. I'd be fine with that.

If you support free Eidolons then you support Maggotkin being able to summon a GUO on a 2d6 6+ by parking a Harbinger, a Poxbringer, and Gutrot Spume next to a tree.

All honesty: did you just pick random characters from the Maggotkin list for your comparison?
Now, if you made it so that doing so only took the exact profile as listed(no Artefacts, weapons had to be as modeled, etc) and prevented further GUOs from being summoned by any means possible and it could only happen during a specific phase of the Corruption Cycle?

Sure. I'd support that.


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 EnTyme wrote:

Also, the Eidolon speculation seems awfully wishlisty, Kan. If they were going to make a change, they probably would have done it in the Idoneth FAQ.

Of course it's wishlisty, but still--everywhere on the Eidolon it talks about them being summoned.

You may be right, I was more abrasive than I should have been. At any rate the Maggotkin characters were actually very specific (though for someone who doesn't play them I see that they would seem random) the Harbinger is a 7-wound General equivalent to the King in this analogy, the Poxbringer is a wizard corresponding to the Tidecaster, and Spume is a character used to deep strike with another unit corresponding to the Soulscryer.

I would support the high tide idea except it can be reversed for round two summoning, and its still an issue of being rather easy to summon a tremendously strong model on round three (I don't like how Maggotkin can do this either). On the fluff, note that they are summoned using the souls in their not-infinty circuit that exists within the city but not out in the field. It doesn't seem like it's a small number of them either.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
They'd need to rebalance everything that does more than 1 damage to suit that. Often a low number of attacks will have a very high damage potential; they'd all need to get more attacks, that would then make multi-wound worse still.

It would break the system

It would definitely have some odd consequences, but they could make some core rules to help out. Maybe something like this:

Sweeping Blows - If a model is removed from play by the attack of a model with the Monster and/or War Machine keyword, any unsaved wounds that are left over are not lost but instead must be allocated to another model in the same unit. Keep doing this until all unsaved wounds have been allocated or there are no model left in the unit.

Inelegant, I know, but this would mean that Monsters and War Machines are still good against hordes, but units like Retributors have a niche against elite units.

Wouldn't work. About half of all the 'large' units in the game aren't MONSTERs or WAR MACHINES(something GW forgets all the time too), not to mention it's clunky, unnecessary, and leads to the 'hordes are the best option for everything' problem 40k is dealing with right now.

If you want something to have a niche against elite units give it rend, that's much easier. GW is FAR too conservative with rend and WAY too liberal with mortal wounds.

I agree that GW is too liberal with mortals and too conservative with rend. I think they tend to overlook how mortals are inherently stronger even against units with no save at all because while they usually have a 'hit' mechanic they don't need to roll to wound.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You may be right, I was more abrasive than I should have been.

No problem, we've been at each others' throats a bit over the rollercoaster ride that has been AoS2.0 reveals.

At any rate the Maggotkin characters were actually very specific (though for someone who doesn't play them I see that they would seem random) the Harbinger is a 7-wound General equivalent to the King in this analogy, the Poxbringer is a wizard corresponding to the Tidecaster, and Spume is a character used to deep strike with another unit corresponding to the Soulscryer.

I had a feeling this was the reasoning but I do think it worth mentioning that Spume, IMO, brings more to the table than the Soulscryer. Personal opinion there.

I would support the high tide idea except it can be reversed for round two summoning, and its still an issue of being rather easy to summon a tremendously strong model on round three (I don't like how Maggotkin can do this either).

I'm curious to see how exactly they're handling things. We know that Deepkin were written for 2.0, but it does seem like there's a bit of stuff that seems a bit 'off' to me when comparing wording vs Maggotkin and Daughters. Can't really quantify it exactly, just there's something.

On the fluff, note that they are summoned using the souls in their not-infinty circuit that exists within the city but not out in the field. It doesn't seem like it's a small number of them either.

The Ritual of Rousing actually specifically calls out them tapping into the 'energy of the chorrileums'. P15 of the Idoneth book has a specific mention of an Eidolon of Mathlann being summoned in the field when Slaanesh forces followed them. It's a whole plot hook as to how the Idoneth are discovered by Archaon.

I mean, maybe the way to go would be to make it so that specific Aspects could be summoned during specific Tides phases? Aspect of the Storm, for example, could be summoned during Ebb Tides only(so turn 4--or turn 1 with a Tidecaster as General, assuming that doesn't get cleaned up/altered) while the Aspect of the Sea gets summoned during High Tide?


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I agree that GW is too liberal with mortals and too conservative with rend. I think they tend to overlook how mortals are inherently stronger even against units with no save at all because while they usually have a 'hit' mechanic they don't need to roll to wound.

It's super weird to say the least. I really feel like archers, at the least, should have a -1 Rend for most types. Or something like "within half of this weapon's range, add -1 to the Rend characteristic".

I really do hope they change the distribution of MW/rend, it was one of the things that drove me away originally.

It seems like they are doubling down on mortal wound spam as a corner stone of listbuilding.

I wouldn't go that far based on what we've seen. It could very well be true but keep in mind that for Stormcast in particular the bar is quite high on mortal wound output so to even meet that would be significant. Evocators may dish out a bunch of mortals but unless they are costed ridiculously low their output will still be much less than what stormcast already have. A five man retributor unit is throwing down a bit over six mortals on average, double what evocators are putting out.

Also note that unlike current nighthaunt the new ones are not doing mortal wounds on 6s to hit.

When I say doubling down on it I mean nothing I have seen seems to really counter it or make you not want to spam as much of it as possible still.

Idoneth preview



I am so, so okay with Suffocating Gravetide. It's both a boon(the barricade part) and a NOPENOPENOPE! in the form of the gravetide y'know...eating you.

auticus wrote:
When I say doubling down on it I mean nothing I have seen seems to really counter it or make you not want to spam as much of it as possible still.

It does kinda feel like the two main listbuilding tricks for AOS2 might be get as many mortal wounds as you can (no change), and minmax the summoning capabilities you have (new). I do get the feeling that some of the tweaks to summoning were also in response to MW spam, in addition to most feeling summoning in matched play was useless. Rather than dialing back MW, offer a "counter" to it. I think also semi-related is points drops for stuff; the more models you have on the table, the slightly less effective MW spam is (granted, not by much).

auticus wrote:
When I say doubling down on it I mean nothing I have seen seems to really counter it or make you not want to spam as much of it as possible still.

Ah, I misinterpreted.

The Suffocating Gravetide is... weird. I don't get the point of the Roiling Barricade. You have to have ALL of the models in the unit be within 1" of it, which means big units of things like Thralls and Reavers won't benefit from the bonus. Maybe the various cavalry might, but tbh, I wouldn't want my models to be within 1" of that thing in case my opponent takes 2nd turn and moves it to knock on my models with mortal wounds and bravery debuffs.

If I want killy things, I'll take the Purple Sun. If I want defensive things, I'll take the Pallisade.

drbored wrote:
The Suffocating Gravetide is... weird. I don't get the point of the Roiling Barricade. You have to have ALL of the models in the unit be within 1" of it, which means big units of things like Thralls and Reavers won't benefit from the bonus. Maybe the various cavalry might, but tbh, I wouldn't want my models to be within 1" of that thing in case my opponent takes 2nd turn and moves it to knock on my models with mortal wounds and bravery debuffs.

If I want killy things, I'll take the Purple Sun. If I want defensive things, I'll take the Pallisade.

It's not really intended to be 'defensive' I think. It's something for you to plop down and follow in. That's my take on it at least.

drbored wrote:
The Suffocating Gravetide is... weird. I don't get the point of the Roiling Barricade. You have to have ALL of the models in the unit be within 1" of it, which means big units of things like Thralls and Reavers won't benefit from the bonus. Maybe the various cavalry might, but tbh, I wouldn't want my models to be within 1" of that thing in case my opponent takes 2nd turn and moves it to knock on my models with mortal wounds and bravery debuffs.

If I want killy things, I'll take the Purple Sun. If I want defensive things, I'll take the Pallisade.

You move it then move your troops up behind it to take cover. Alternatively it gets moved towards/over you and you get behind it for cover. It's a tactical option using a model on the board.

I am a little sad that, given that they listed all of those elf sub-factions separately in their preview, they don't seem to be merging them any time soon.

Looking at the unit builder, Stormcast Eternals has 19 unit options. Legions of Nagash has 15. Each of those are about to get several more just from the 2.0 starter set.

Sylvaneth, a relatively modern AOS faction, has 4. Wanderers has 6. Is it really too much to ask to merge them?

See also the 1 in Eldritch Council and the 5 in Swifthawk. It is just silly to fragment them like that.

Well not all factions are created equally, which IMO is fine. There's no need for all of them to be on par with one another in options but rather it's important to take options into account when designing allegiance. There's a reason that very restrictive factions like Idoneth or Kharadron have comparatively strong allegiance abilities, while the allegiance for a whole alliance is comparatively weak. Note that when a diverse faction also has strong allegiance it creates problems (Tzeentch). Stormcast are a diverse faction but the benefits (and I'm sure I'll be grilled for saying this) aren't all the great. Tons of stuff from other factions allows deep striking, often with some restriction but also with complete control rather than needing a 3+. What makes Stormcast so strong is the units (and battalions) themselves; only a tiny sub section of options perform at tournaments, let alone win them.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
I am a little sad that, given that they listed all of those elf sub-factions separately in their preview, they don't seem to be merging them any time soon.

I feel rather saddened by it too. I really hoped GHB would add Sea Warden on foot to the SHA, lowering the cost of Shadow Warriors don't feel like it's going to matter at all as you have announcements of other units also receiving point reduction, while others can summon free units on the table. The tone of the faction focus felt more in the line with "these guys could make nice allies", it was likely foolish to expect any other comment.

Malign Sorcery is $120 CAD? It better fething not be core rules at that cost

Will be very curious to see if tournaments make this a core set or not.

Facebook stated they have no information on a digital version of the Malign Sorcery supplement, so there's no way to get the rules and not the models at this time either.

My prediction is that due to the cost of buying the box, tournaments will not have this be a part of tournament play, which means that like all GW expansions since the dawn of time, getting people to play these will be difficult.

I'm planning to have sorcery a part of all of my games. It adds so much immersion to the games. But I can understand there's too much that depends on the realm of battle that TOs won't add it since it's hard to keep it going for matched play games where you only bring 1 list.

My plan is to do the same. My private map advanced firestorm campaign will definitely use these.

Our public shop campaign this fall people have already raised the alarm bells that they don't want optional expansions in the store events though, and if this isn't adapted by LVO or Adepticon that this won't be used in the store events. Same with the realm spells.

auticus wrote:
My prediction is that due to the cost of buying the box, tournaments will not have this be a part of tournament play, which means that like all GW expansions since the dawn of time, getting people to play these will be difficult.

Yes and no, thing is whilst it comes with a cost it makes such a great addition to the visual aspect of the game. I can well see a lot of people soaking the cost or building their own converted spells from spare parts to get involved.

I've gotten more people from my store on board with doing narrative games. Stuff balanced by matched play (i.e. points just make sure games can be somewaht balanced) but just not heres my four objectives that we have to fight over.

auticus wrote:
My plan is to do the same. My private map advanced firestorm campaign will definitely use these.

Our public shop campaign this fall people have already raised the alarm bells that they don't want optional expansions in the store events though, and if this isn't adapted by LVO or Adepticon that this won't be used in the store events. Same with the realm spells.

Whine whine whine. That's all your group seems to do.

Tell them to get over it. Seriously. It's $85 (or less--they weren't exactly 100% clear) for ALL of the Malign Sorcery stuff. I'm planning on getting at least two, just so I can huck around Suffocating Gravetides(plural!) with my Idoneth.

I can respect not wanting it in events--it's a lot of time and energy crammed into 1-2 days for a tournament so dealing with only the base rules becomes very appealing.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I can respect not wanting it in events--it's a lot of time and energy crammed into 1-2 days for a tournament so dealing with only the base rules becomes very appealing.

I can't. Events with chunks of the rules missing might as well just be called "AOS: We don't actually want to play it".

It's one thing if, say, it's a tournament. It's another thing entirely when it's a campaign like he alluded to.

Also, I can't find it but do Charging units go first now? I want to say that was a thing we saw?

Those guys want the public events to all reflect tournament play because thats what they care about. They can't test their tournament lists if there are rules involved that they wouldn't be using in their tournaments.

They want all of their games to be using the same standard rules, in or out of tournaments. They also don't want to be forced into buying a magic supplement that they'd only use in campaigns, when the bulk of their games are tournament prep or tournament games, and they don't want others to use something that they can't (same reasons for why they want forgeworld banned). Its a timeless complaint that I've had to deal with since the mid 2000s and Forgeworld and the old 40k expansions like cityfight.

Thats why I took my more fun campaigns and made them private where the tournament guys aren't a part of, and the public store campaigns just use standard tournament rules.

It causes a lot less stress on me, and it means people aren't riling up the drama factor because everyone is getting what they want. Surprisingly enough the bulk of our AOS players asked to be a part of the map campaign too knowing the house rules like -1 to shoot through forests and the sudden death victory conditions for spamming mortal wounds or summoning more than 25% of their force.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I can respect not wanting it in events--it's a lot of time and energy crammed into 1-2 days for a tournament so dealing with only the base rules becomes very appealing.

I can't. Events with chunks of the rules missing might as well just be called "AOS: We don't actually want to play it".

It's one thing if, say, it's a tournament. It's another thing entirely when it's a campaign like he alluded to.

Also, I can't find it but do Charging units go first now? I want to say that was a thing we saw?

Oh, I didn't realize it was a campaign. I still don't begrudge them for wanting to play a certain way though; there isn't a wrong choice, even if I think it's an odd one.