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2020/05/14 18:59:48
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
yukishiro1 wrote: Polychromatic storm doesn't let you DS the three things you move for free, it just says you can put them in DS if they have the ability to do so otherwise. You could polychromatic something then webway assault, but you'd still have to pay for the webway assault, so if you want to start them in DS from the beginning I'd just do that. And it doesn't let you get around the 2 unit limit on webway assault either.
It's a good strat just like the craftworlds version is a good strat for other reasons, but it's not a free 3 units in deepstrike.
Ahh I see, it's a redeploy, my bad. Best put those starweavers back then!
2020/05/14 23:18:21
Subject: Re:Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
BTW back to Death Jester, I've not seen it mentioned though surely some people will have spotted it, but the Shrieking Doom stratagem won't work on the new Relic as it has Wail/Shuriken profiles instead of Shrieker/Shuriken and the strat applies to the Shrieker profile. Anyway even if it was called Shuriken, you'd technically switch the damage from 3 to D3 so not worth it.
2020/05/14 23:51:37
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah, and that's what makes me question how often I'd really want to use the DS role. It just seems like you have a lot more control if you start him on the board; I don't like being at the mercy of screening and especially of just failing your charge: 3d6 discarding the lowest is still only about a 50% chance of success, or about 70% with a cp reroll. That's about 10% too low even with the CP for my comfort level.
you could always have the domino shroud as your get out of jail free card. You drop in, try to charge..fail...reroll...fail. OK, end of charge phase (or in opponent's movement phase when he thinks he's got you dead), you jump 12" away to hide
2020/05/14 23:55:05
Subject: Re:Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
Nostro wrote: BTW back to Death Jester, I've not seen it mentioned though surely some people will have spotted it, but the Shrieking Doom stratagem won't work on the new Relic as it has Wail/Shuriken profiles instead of Shrieker/Shuriken and the strat applies to the Shrieker profile. Anyway even if it was called Shuriken, you'd technically switch the damage from 3 to D3 so not worth it.
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah, and that's what makes me question how often I'd really want to use the DS role. It just seems like you have a lot more control if you start him on the board; I don't like being at the mercy of screening and especially of just failing your charge: 3d6 discarding the lowest is still only about a 50% chance of success, or about 70% with a cp reroll. That's about 10% too low even with the CP for my comfort level.
you could always have the domino shroud as your get out of jail free card. You drop in, try to charge..fail...reroll...fail. OK, end of charge phase (or in opponent's movement phase when he thinks he's got you dead), you jump 12" away to hide
Then you lose the ability to actually kill the target you're going after, though, because a solitaire isn't actually very good at killing anything but chaff without the rose. 8 attacks at S4 -1 D3 or S5 -2 1D isn't very scary to a lot of characters, especially without wound rerolls.
It's also way easier to screen out deep strikers than it is to avoid a solitaire on the table that has ~25" average threat range when he blitzes, or up to 44ish" if you can sling him off a seer just right (though it's usually more like a 35", because you usually can't get your seer far enough up the board to be able to move the solitaire his full movement the first time around).
Maybe there are some really weird unusual match-ups where paying the 1CP for it might be worth it, but I can't ever see replacing blitz with it in your army list, or honestly what match-up I would want to take it in.
2020/05/15 00:12:55
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
I don't see any way you wouldn't want at least one troupe master with reroll wounds, it's a hugely powerful ability and it's hard to see why you'd ever want one of the abilities instead of it, as opposed to in addition to it.
I think that DJ is the only one that's going to regularly replace as opposed to adding. Maybe 2nd troupe masters and shadowseers.
I see myself paying 1CP for a shadowseeer with -1 wounds and the 6" range reducer every single game, paying 1CP in 75% of games for a TM with reroll charges, and maybe 50% of the time paying a CP for either chromatic rush or the -1 to hit on the solitaire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 00:56:46
2020/05/15 01:05:52
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
I think I'm going to want at least two, and maybe even three Shadowseers, TMs, and DJs to build in redundancies of critical buffs like -1 to wound and re-roll wounds in close combat. If you're allying in other Aeldari, maybe not as important, but in mono-Harlequins, I feel like those abilities can win games when spread out to multiple units.
2020/05/15 03:18:27
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
The list I'm kicking around right now has 1 quin bat, 1 craftworlds bat and a dreaming shadow vanguard. Right now it has one TM, two seers, one solitaire and 3 DJs. I would only take two DJs ideally but I needed the third to fill out the vanguard so I don't have to put the solitaire in it. If I end up deciding not to run the vanguard as a different masque I'd drop the third DJ and put the solitaire there instead.
If I was running mono quins, I'd definitely have a second TM, move the second seer into the main masque, and take Cat Lady to anchor the dreaming shadow vanguard. If for some reason you're opposed to Cat Lady I would probably give up on the vanguard and just run double bat because I'm not convinced a third TM or seer is great value for points.
I think Cat Lady is really good in mono quins though if you aren't opposed for fluff reasons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 03:20:58
2020/05/15 09:26:25
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
As someone who is thinking of starting Harlequins with the new rules, what is the general game strategy in how they play?
Particularly with regards to the basic troops.
Clowns on foot accompanied by Shadowseer and Troupe Master?
Five Players and a Troupe Master in a Starweaver, trying for turn 2 charge?
2020/05/15 12:09:39
Subject: Re:Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
So, I had my first 40k game with new 'quins yesterday. My opponent fielded a semi-competitive Ork List (he wanted to test new Ghazzie, so basically him plus 90 Boyz, 4 Meganobs, 6 Smashas, SSAG, 3 Weirdboyz, Badrukk, Painboss and Fieldmek). I played 2 Frozen Star Battallions and 1 DrukhariYnnari Battallion (mostly for CP). From the 18 CP I started with, I spent 9 before the game (3 Harlie relics, 1 Ynnari relic, 1 Ynnari WL trait, 4 pivotal roles for 2 TM, 1 SS and the Solitaire). List was composed of 3x5 FuPi clowns in Weavers, 12 Clowns on foot with a mix of 6 special CC Weapons, 2 x 5 clowns on foot, 6 Skyweavers, 2 DJs, 1 Soli, 2 SS, 2 TM, 1 Voidweaver, Archon with Relic weapon, Catwoman, 3x5 kabal warriors. Worked quite well in this setting, game ended after 3 turns due to time issues, but I was comfortably leading in points, had field control and killed all boyz (we played maelstrom CA 2019).
Lessons learned:
New DJ is just great - slowing Boyz and remove overwatch is just silly for 45 points
the combination of frozen star +1 to wound and the new +1 D stat on 12 Clowns will kill anything it affects fully (60 attacks hitting on 3, wounding on 3 or 4 w/reroll and dealing at least 2 d each... 10 primaris, 6 aggressors, statistically no problem in a single phase...)
-1 to hit on solitaire is really nice
You need tons of CP - the 9 I started with went really fast, and I had the Ynnari WL trait that let me regain some of them...
The Shadowstone is great. A shadowseer with a 9" bubble of -1 to wound (that can also work on vehicles/bikes via gem) and -6" range and probably 9" 6+++ bubble via psi is a great defensive assessment. Probably 2 mandatory CP if you happen to go second - star weavers with -1 to hit, -1 to wound and a 4++/6+++ are ridicluosly survivable for T5 6W... The drawback is that mixing Masques doesn't work so good anymore (that's why I went mono Frozen stars instead of putting the Weavers into a soaring spite detachment)
All in all, really nice buffs, but I think to get the most out of it, triple bat is almost mandatory, which limits list building quite dramatically...
2020/05/15 13:47:14
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
Recently I have been pretty down on 5-man troupes in starweavers. They just don't seem to actually do anything most of the time. I feel like units of 10 have a much better ability to take the center of the board and force your opponent to come at you, and that that usually works out a lot better than having to try to go at the enemy with 5-man units that really struggle to either kill stuff or wrap stuff - and that probably die on your opponent's turn even if they do wrap something.
But I realize this works a lot better in soup than mono quins. Night spinners are such an amazing unit for quins and the chip threat they provide from range enables you to play defensive board control in a way that is much harder with a mono list that lacks the holy grail that is ranged indirect fire.
My current list still has one 5-man troupe in a starweaver, but its purpose isn't to engage the enemy, it's to survive to late game and then grab objectives and mop up stragglers that get separated from the enemy's main force. I might still swap it out for a third 10-man, but I have a feeling that two big units is probably the sweet spot and going to 3 is less effective.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/15 18:06:57
2020/05/15 18:13:14
Subject: Re:Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
Yeah, the voidweaver is surely a candidate for possible exchange... In game, I used the prismatic cannon, just forgot to click it in BattleScribe. I like the option of ranged d6 Damage... But other options seem also viable, e.g. 2 more Skyweavers, upgrading 5 Kabalites to Wyches and putting them in a raider together with the archon (since they are all Ynnari, the murdergirls profit from the reroll 1s of the archon), a 3rd DJ or a second large Troupe... I think more CC weapons in my existing troupes would be the least attractive option. The large Troupe murders almost everything with only 6 CC weapons, and normally you lose some models on the way to the front, so I don' recommend spending more points there. If I'm taking CC weapons in the FuPi troupes, I tend to get out of transport to charge something, which usally leads to the destruction of the troupe and, retrospectively, often seems to be the worse choice in comparison to staying embarked and just shooting another round, so I deliberately restrict the troupes to prevent making tactical unsound decisions...
I'm still not sure whether the FuPi Boats make sense as frozen stars - against a gunline army, I definitely won't be able to reach anything with them in Round one, so they have to survive two rounds of shooting if I'm going second - more tests are needed!
2020/05/15 18:33:37
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
My best game (ITC 20man event) i had 3 Voidweavers. They are not "bad" for their points. They are cheap gun boats and play them as such. Just like everything else, they are better vs some armies and worst vs others. Against a Custodes player they did really well. 3 of them targeted a unit and did some good damage. Against nids it was nice to have more fire power than melee b.c i needed to blow away the Genestealers faster. If i would have had 270pts of Bikes or other melee units it wouldn't have worked out for that event.
Honestly I feel like fusion pistol troupes in starweavers are not that much better than voidweavers: fine, but hopelessly outclassed by craftworlds EC/MS alternatives. I do think they have a role in mono quins lists, but they're definitely not one of the stronger elements of the codex, so they're the sort of thing I wouldn't take except in a mono quins list.
Not to mention that you literally can't attack with them against another quins list with the -6" inch range, so you pretty much just auto-lose a mirror match-up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 19:32:07
2020/05/15 19:58:40
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
yukishiro1 wrote: Honestly I feel like fusion pistol troupes in starweavers are not that much better than voidweavers: fine, but hopelessly outclassed by craftworlds EC/MS alternatives. I do think they have a role in mono quins lists, but they're definitely not one of the stronger elements of the codex, so they're the sort of thing I wouldn't take except in a mono quins list.
Not to mention that you literally can't attack with them against another quins list with the -6" inch range, so you pretty much just auto-lose a mirror match-up.
Yep, with 5 pistols, 3 hits on average when you look at the math. Against a T7, 3+/5++ outside of range its 5.1 wounds, inside range its 6.6 wounds. So you are only doing 1.5 more wounds to get closer could be bad for you, just keep that in mind. The total cost is 170pts. Can we do 5 wounds with something else for 170pts that has at least 10 wounds with more range than 6"? Yep, just look at almost any CWE stuff lol. There is also a lot of CC units too like Shining Spears.
Harlequins has 2 really good units, DJ and Skyweavers, everything else is slightly worst than what DE/CWE can do. We did get a nice boost to Troupes, before this update Wyches were point for point better than Troupes (more survivability and equal damage, but more models over all, key models where the 4 weapons they could lose 6 wyches to Troupes 2 and still be better). But now Troupes are finally much higher damage, survivability is also better via stratagems and new Shadowseer combos.
But we have better tricks than DE/CWEIMO, which should be the case. IMO we are not to far behind either of them, giving us 1 more solid unit option will go a very long way. HQ on bike, Flyer, Avatar, Cheaper troops/Mimes, any of those would make use a lot more equal to DE/CWE.
I am heavily considering going Battalion Quins with a Battalion CWE to get some Shining Spears, 2x6 of each bike sounds hella fun!
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: I also want to try a back line support Spearhead Coven "Artists of the Flesh" Reaper detachment, thats 36 wounds with T7, 5++, -1D. They shoot D6 Dark Lances each basically. A little low on damage for the points, but they do more than 3 kabal DL ravagers and are way more survivable.
Or Fire Prisms, was thinking either go all out attack, or some back line range with defense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/15 20:20:01
I have also not been super happy with fusion squads in Starweavers. You really need to be within three inch range to get the most value out of them which makes them a suicide unit. If you absolutely need to kill a medium to light vehicle (T7 or below), then they have some utility, but when I've tried this build, mine have largely bounced off things such as Knights or anything they need fours to wound on (in fairness, my usual rolling with both fusion and haywire wounding is almost comically bad). Ultimately, I'd rather have more Skyweavers for mono Quins or, even, better as already noted, some hyper efficient CWEEC firepower.
2020/05/15 20:21:09
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
In the current Space Marine and ECCWE world we live in, it is straight up criminal that we have to pay 2 CPs to re-roll 1's ONLY in close combat. Archons aren't the greatest HQs by any stretch, but at least they give their respective factions re-rolls FOR FREE.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 20:27:19
2020/05/15 20:32:40
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
Heck, i also play SOB, the Canoness IMO is the single best HQ in the game for effectiveness point for point, 3+/4++ better melee than the Archon, rr'1s aura, 54pts for a +2str, -3ap, D3 hero that is 4 atks base, +1atk and ap on the charge. So good..
But yes I fully agree, the GH SHOULD work on ALL 1's.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 20:38:27
IMO troupes are the best unit in the codex and the best troops choice in the eldar superfaction, even before the changes, but certainly afterward. The value of troops isn't usually their ability to kill stuff, it's their ability to take and hold objectives, and troupes do that better than wyches because of the added mobility, and the easy access to a 3++ and -1 to wound, along with reasonable access to minus to hit modifiers and a 6+++. Troupes are incredibly effective on any table with central L ruins, which is pretty much standard these days.
Their weapons are overcosted though, especially the pistols which synergize badly with a unit that almost always wants to advance. Really quins should be able to fire pistols after advancing just as a base rule; that is what you'd need to make them worth taking aside from on the TM and maybe 1 per unit (maybe 2 in a unit of 10+) just to have something to yolo with if a model or two survives the initial combat and has a juicy target to take a pop at. I don't really rate them at all for killing vehicles, but I always take one on my TM because sometimes it just comes up trumps and blows an enemy melee character off the table at just the right time, even if most of the time it does nothing.
And yes, the lack of rerolls is the biggest, glaring weakness in the army. This is another reason why a EC/MS craftworld bat or spearhead makes an army so much stronger than staying mono quins. EC/MS Night Spinners are the best indirect fire in the game in my opinion, but they're even better for a quins-based list than they are for a craftworlds-based list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 20:47:46
2020/05/15 20:47:37
Subject: Re:Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
And, as you said, therein lies Harlequins greatest weakness. Even more so than their relatively high points cost and fragility, the lack of any realistic (I don't consider GH to be a reasonable option given how CP hungry this army was BEFORE we got the new rules) re-rolls to hit in all phases is the true achilles heel of the army. Quins are so fragile and elite that they need to maximize damage every turn before attrition kicks in and no buffs to hit rolls is just really disappointing given its prevalence in the game.
EDIT: in fact that's my only real complaint with Quins rights now. I was really hoping for something akin to Dark Technomancer or Test of Skill to give them more competitive viability as a standalone faction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 20:53:52
2020/05/15 20:58:50
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
Yeah, none of the changes really make mono quins competitive; the basic weaknesses are all still there.
They do make quins top-tier in eldar soup and in the process make eldar soup even more powerful, something that I'm really not sure the game needed. EC/MS CWEMSU spam isn't as bad as say Iron Hands, but it really didn't need a substantial buff, which I think this gives it. It gives an even bigger boost to the shining-spears heavy lists, but I'm not quite so worried about that because I don't think that list is as fundamentally powerful as the EC/MS spam to begin with, and it requires way more finesse to play well too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 21:00:23
2020/05/15 21:23:27
Subject: Re:Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
I think with the new rules, GW has definitely taken a step in the right direction towards being more competitive. I think if Quins got some more much needed points decreases, particularly on basic Troupes and their weapon options, they'd be in a much better place overall. But I look at how much SoB improved and I'm hopeful that maybe in the next edition Quins might get the same love.
2020/05/16 08:48:20
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
So I've just noticed that Harlequins have literally the worst Melee weapon in 40k. Congratulations!
Harlequins's blade does 100% nothing. Every model in the game has a base melee attack which is 1d, strength user, no rend. This is the exact profile of the H blade. The profile could be deleted and it would have zero effect on the model, and so I'm not even sure it fulfills the criteria of being a weapon at all.
What is going on there? Why no chainsword equivalent?
2020/05/16 10:02:49
Subject: Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!
grouchoben wrote: So I've just noticed that Harlequins have literally the worst Melee weapon in 40k. Congratulations!
Harlequins's blade does 100% nothing. Every model in the game has a base melee attack which is 1d, strength user, no rend. This is the exact profile of the H blade. The profile could be deleted and it would have zero effect on the model, and so I'm not even sure it fulfills the criteria of being a weapon at all.
What is going on there? Why no chainsword equivalent?
Because when 8th edition released, models didn't have that melee weapon (edit: all the time). They only had it if they had no other weapon. The Harlequin blade exists because a) No model No Rules means Yes Model, Yes Rules, so they needed to have rules for the model and b) So they have something to replace with their other melee weapons rather than simply adding them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/16 14:36:58
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
