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You mean 5 Troupes and a character, it holds 6 and 5 is minimum for a unit.

Also those 48 S5 shots (HB's most likely) thats 16 HB's wasted shooting 1 vehicle that protected your 120+ point shredding unit. Remember something will die turn 1, make it what you want to die and not your Troupes.

So you are saying your Troupes are 104ps for 8? So you are taking 0 gear on them, i dont think they will do anything all game other than Tie up a unit, and Wyches are cheaper/better at that so you are literally wasting points on that Troupe unit.

Harlequins are good b.c they can do damage and get there while able to be where they want once they get there.

well, if he takes 5 kitted out and 7 ablative then he is delivering the same punch as 5 troupes in a starweaver (although the weaver can absorb overwatch a heck of a lot better) plus the attacks of the bare bones harlies.

I see what he is saying, 7 harlies is 91 pts (less than a starweaver) and is not as fragile as probably first believed (as long as the Shadowseer is close by). Downside is that the shadowseer is now kind of stranded (one thing I didn't like about the power)

Lithanial wrote:
For comparison, to protect 4 Troupes and a character, assuming BS3 shooters:

6 Wounds of Starweaver
Vs Str 3 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 4 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 5 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 6+ = 36 shots required

Vulnerable to multi-damage. Average 1 additional casualty on destruction. 99 points for the Starweaver + minimum 13 for lost troupe on destruction.

8 Wounds of ablative Troupe in Shadowseer Aura
Vs Str 3 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 4 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 5 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 6+ = 36 shots required

Vulnerable to morale. 104 points for 8 basic troupes
---

There are pro's and cons to both. Just wanted to illustrate that being outside of a Starweaver is not as bad as the initial knee-jerk thoughts tend to be.

it is also worth noting that in most (not all, but most) matchups, anti tank firepower tends to be far longer range than anti-infantry firepower.

if you're up against a guard gunline and he gets turn 1, you'll get hit by three mortar teams for sure, which will kill 4 harlequins in SS aura, but odds are good you're not getting hit by any or many of the lasguns he's also relying on to do a lot of his anti infantry work, because they are only 24" range and guard gunlines tend not to start right on the deployment line against Harlequins. Smart ones, anyway. Meanwhile, your starweavers are almost certainly going to be in range of absolutely everything he brought to hurt tanks.

My issue with the foot harlies is that a starweaver on one wound does more than a troupe on one wound. That is to say if you damage a starweaver but don't kill it, it can still do its job, but if you kill halve of the troupes they will do very little in combat. Also you have to wonder what is more valuable, using twilight pathways to get troupes to make contact with some front line bubble wrap or using twilight pathways to get a starweaver full of fusion deep into the back line to kill something more valuable.

If you do decide on one large footslogging unit of harlequins what masque will they be in? Because they want to be in a different masque than your starweaver players. Your shadow seer has the be the same masque as our footsloggers. Are you okay paying all those points for a shadowseer who can only protect one unit?

 bullyboy wrote:
Downside is that the shadowseer is now kind of stranded (one thing I didn't like about the power)

If you bring the SS, DJ, and Solitaire then your SS can leverage Heroes Path so he/she doesn't have to be stranded. If you go second then they are protecting the troupe and in turn gaining their protection via character rules (same as DJ and Solitaire) during your opponents 1st shooting phase. Then during your turn place him/her anywhere on the battlefield. If you go first you can run the troupe up and heroes path or run the characters up along with them.

 lambsandlions wrote:
My issue with the foot harlies is that a starweaver on one wound does more than a troupe on one wound. That is to say if you damage a starweaver but don't kill it, it can still do its job, but if you kill halve of the troupes they will do very little in combat. Also you have to wonder what is more valuable, using twilight pathways to get troupes to make contact with some front line bubble wrap or using twilight pathways to get a starweaver full of fusion deep into the back line to kill something more valuable.

If you do decide on one large footslogging unit of harlequins what masque will they be in? Because they want to be in a different masque than your starweaver players. Your shadow seer has the be the same masque as our footsloggers. Are you okay paying all those points for a shadowseer who can only protect one unit?

I think lambsandlions is on point here. As ablative wounds the starweaver still wins over 7-8 base troupes due to utility and it simplifies masque considerations.

It seems like a large troupe on foot is better utilized in lower points games where weavers are limited, OR as an allied patrol to another Eldar faction that has more threatening units for your opponent to deal with at range.

Loving the discussion folks, let's keep it up!

The numbers i came out with were not even optimised for if you really wanted to max out a foot force. There are two things in particular that can really round it out.

1, Frozen Stars warlord trait can give you a FnP bubble even should the enemy get first turn
2, The relic "Laughing Gods Eye" can get around all morale issues

Note that I did the numbers assuming you had to deliver 4 kitted our Troupers since the worst-case scenario for the Star Weaver while still being a viable unit is that it gets destroyed and you end up having to Veiled Path the occupants up the board anyway. In cases where it gets destroyed, that 5th model mathematically goes splat.

Also you have to wonder what is more valuable, using twilight pathways to get troupes to make contact with some front line bubble wrap or using twilight pathways to get a starweaver full of fusion deep into the back line to kill something more valuable.

In the best case scenario of a full squad consisting of say 5 fully loaded Frozen Stars Troupe and 7 barebones getting in undamage - that's ~19 GEQ kills or bang on 10 MEQ if you are using Caresses..... and then you get to do it again with your "Wardancers" stratagem if there are enough targets left alive, or just give yourself +1 to wound. I'd 100% say that is more valuable than 5 fusion pistol shots at short range.

Alternatively, with Soaring Spite getting a Troupe Master near the squad you catapult, you can get 21 GEQ and 11.8 MEQ kills with Embraces.

Lithanial wrote:
1, Frozen Stars warlord trait can give you a FnP bubble even should the enemy get first turn

This is probably the absolute worst Warlord Trait in the book. It only triggers when the "unit" loses its last wound. So you only get to roll when the last Player standing in a troupe/Skyweaver in a squad would be slain or the last wound on a Star/Voidweaver would be taken. It only happens on 6's too.

I highly doubt that's the exact wording moko.

I get that's what Scorpion said on his preview but then the miniwargaming one says when he reads it out "Each time a model from a frozen stars unit within 6" of your warlord loses its final wound". We will know once we actually get the book but i'd be expecting it to act like a proper FNP bubble, with the added perk that it ignores multi-damage weapons punching through your FNP roll.

 bullyboy wrote:
well, if he takes 5 kitted out and 7 ablative then he is delivering the same punch as 5 troupes in a starweaver (although the weaver can absorb overwatch a heck of a lot better) plus the attacks of the bare bones harlies.

I see what he is saying, 7 harlies is 91 pts (less than a starweaver) and is not as fragile as probably first believed (as long as the Shadowseer is close by). Downside is that the shadowseer is now kind of stranded (one thing I didn't like about the power)

Not stranded at all if you can just Voip her off the board with heroes path in your opponent's turn and pop her down wherever you want her afterwards. In the couple test games with harlies ive played so far, HP has been my very favorite stratagem overall because both games I've lost turn 1 and was able to use that strat for some serious mindgames.

Lithanial wrote:
I highly doubt that's the exact wording moko.

You're probably right as GMG reviews it and uses the same language as MWG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyw5_x3SyC0 (Skip to 16:28). This does make it viable for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So let's talk relics. I envision using the following two relics in most games: Cegorach's Rose and the Storied Sword
- Solitare with Cegorach's Rose: attacks at S4/AP-1/D3 dmg (Flat 3 against infantry) with rerolls of failed wounds. If you blitz him, he gets 2 additional attacks. He will excel at taking out 2+/3++ characters.
- Troupe Master with the Storied Sword: 5 attacks at S4/AP-3/D3 dmg rerolling all failed hits/wounds. He should really crush TEQ squads.
I will be running Frozen Stars, so both of those options will have gain +1 attack on the charge, and there is potential for one to gain +2 attacks and +2 strength from a stratagem if they take a wound in overwatch on the charge. There is potential for the two to overlap a bit as they can do the same things, but I am not sure there are any other relics I'd take other than perhaps the Ghoul Mask if I know I'm playing a Psyker heavy army. Thoughts?

I'm quite a fan of the no-overwatch relic when all is said and done, particularly on a Soaring Spite warlord who can get in fast.

That 3+ invulnerable to shooting is no doubt going to save its bacon a lot, plus if you get your positioning right, he can catch up to any unit that falls back from combat with him by using the 6" Heroic Intervention from the "Dramatic Entrance" stratagem on the opponents charge phase.

Starmist Raiment is my favorite relic. It's utility is undeniable IMO. There are some units out there that are nigh-unchargeable - and this will give us one tool in the toolkit to shut them down.

I also like Midnight's Chimes for use as a mini Great Harlequin to spread out the combat deadliness. Pop the fight-twice stratagem in a turn in which you pop Midnight's Chimes for a +1 attack to everyone in two consecutive turns of combat.

I'll be taking the Storied sword - I have the old Jes Goodwin High Avatar model (so gloriously 80s!) as my Great Harlequin (yes I'll be dropping 2CP on that too!) and since a regular power sword is not as good as an embrace, will be nice to have something that matches the model!

The Starmist Raiment looks solid, and the Suit of Hidden Knives could cause a few laughs - I certainly would be careful of doing any parkour moves in that

Looking forward to the codex, especially experimenting with Prismatic/Haywire loadouts on bikes. I should point out - I'm a recreational player, so I'm more keen on using all the "troll" style powers and strategems than anything competitive. Most of my Harlies are painted MIdnight Sorrow style, so pleased its a good Masque trait!

darkarchonlord wrote:
I'd expect a tack-on Harlies force to be a brigade since Harlies are one of the easiest factions to get a strong brigade out of. I was thinking something more like this. Run as Soaring Spite and capitalize on the power of the fusion pistol and a tough package.

Spoiler:

HQ
[125] Shadowseer
[85] Troupe Master (Kiss&Fusion)

Troops
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol

Dedicated Transport
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver

Total: 963pts +5CP

(Note the comment I replied to was deleted)

Assuming that the list above is our base list, what do you guys think would be a good ally? An archon and 3 ravagers seems nice but 2 farseers and 3 rangers would be great for objectives. Harlequins can do everything so I am not sure what we really need.

They need Infiltration and/or screens. They're the epitome of Glass Cannon like the recently done Deathwatch are, so it's important to plan those blockers so that everything else can go forward with ease. Of course we'd rather do pure, but GW...

Unfortunately as I've had no interest in Space Elves outside Harlequins I don't know everything available regarding allies, as I don't see Dark Eldar enough and Eldar don't need anyone by their side.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They need Infiltration and/or screens. They're the epitome of Glass Cannon like the recently done Deathwatch are, so it's important to plan those blockers so that everything else can go forward with ease. Of course we'd rather do pure, but GW...

Unfortunately as I've had no interest in Space Elves outside Harlequins I don't know everything available regarding allies, as I don't see Dark Eldar enough and Eldar don't need anyone by their side.

DE/CWE are both great allies, both can bring something god and screens at the same time, DE screens are the cheap 6pt kind where CWE are Scouts. Both have good fliers, AT, strong units, and long range shooting.

When it comes to allied forces I've actually been considering the Webway Gate combined with the Webway Strike stratagem to get a good amount of foot-dar up field where we need them, without piling too many points of value into the gate. Maybe something simple like this:

---
Alaitoc Batallion

HQ
[110] Farseer - Doom, Executioner, Faolchu's Wing
[80] Illic Nightspear

Troops
[60] 5 Rangers
[120] 10 Dire Avengers - Webway Spar
[120] 10 Dire Avengers - Webway Spar

Elites
[240] 10 Fire Dragons - Webway Strike

Fortification Detachment

[120] Webway Gate
---

Comes in at a rather rounded 850 points and gives you some good anti-horde, bolsters up your anti-tank and finally, gives you a back-field objective holding team. Note that you could easily swap the Fire Dragons out, Webway Strike one of the Dire Avenger units and bring something chunkier through the Webway Gate.

For casual games the WWG is fine, but as soon as you play any type of local comp game or WAAC player where you follow GW rules about terrain and Objective placement, its literally impossible to play it, as the other player just needs to make sure there isnt more than a 18" gap between terrain and objectives.

Luckily most tournaments have set objectives/terrain, even tho there is huge arguments that objective placement is part of the tactics of the game.

Highly unlikely that they can 100% stop it being placed, even if you have to deploy it side-on at one of the flanks as far forward as possible you should be able to get it down.

not sure where you get an 18" gap though? the rule states just 3" gap between the model and terrain/objectives. Considering you can rotate that gate around I really don't see an issue.

Lithanial wrote:
Highly unlikely that they can 100% stop it being placed, even if you have to deploy it side-on at one of the flanks as far forward as possible you should be able to get it down.

not sure where you get an 18" gap though? the rule states just 3" gap between the model and terrain/objectives. Considering you can rotate that gate around I really don't see an issue.

Each pillar is roughly the size of a WK base, and you need to put down two of them. And they have to be separated by a distance that seems to also be the size of a WK base (I got all these approximative measurements from the pictures). If the arches have to be less than 6" apart (which I think is the case), then you can't have anything between them, not even an objective right in the middle.
So that's a ~14"x3" footprint. With a 3" gap with all the other features, you need a empty spot on your table ~20"x9" (oval shaped). That's extremely difficult to come by.

fresus wrote:

Lithanial wrote:
Highly unlikely that they can 100% stop it being placed, even if you have to deploy it side-on at one of the flanks as far forward as possible you should be able to get it down.

not sure where you get an 18" gap though? the rule states just 3" gap between the model and terrain/objectives. Considering you can rotate that gate around I really don't see an issue.

Each pillar is roughly the size of a WK base, and you need to put down two of them. And they have to be separated by a distance that seems to also be the size of a WK base (I got all these approximative measurements from the pictures). If the arches have to be less than 6" apart (which I think is the case), then you can't have anything between them, not even an objective right in the middle.
So that's a ~14"x3" footprint. With a 3" gap with all the other features, you need a empty spot on your table ~20"x9" (oval shaped). That's extremely difficult to come by.

This ^

That still doesn't stop it being deployed down a board edge in my view. At worst your opponent can put an objective on each edge just to push your portal back, but you will just end up with your portal full of Ob-Sec troops 3" away from an objective, or maybe even two with your own objective placements in mind.

Lets say that even if terrain placement manages to let your opponent shut down one flank for placement, you can just place your own objective ~7" in from the other board edge. With those Webway Gate footprint dimensions and with your opponent not allowed to place another objective within a 12" bubble of that you just secured yourself a spot for the Webway Gate along with an objective right next to it for all your troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fine-tuned a 2000 point mixed Webway Gate list given everything we have been discussing the past few days.
---
Soaring Spite Battalion
HQ
[77] Troupe Master - Harlequin's Caress. Skystrider, Starmist Raiment
[86] Troupe Master - Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Kiss
[125] Shadowseer - Twilight Pathways, Veil of Tears

Troops
[191] 12 Players - 5 Harlequin's Caress
[125] 5 Players - 3 Fusion Pistol, 3 Harlequin's Kiss, 2 Harlequin's Embrace
[125] 5 Players - 3 Fusion Pistol, 3 Harlequin's Kiss, 2 Harlequin's Embrace

Fast Attack
[147] 3 Skyweavers - 3 Haywire Cannons, 2 Zephyrglaive
[147] 3 Skyweavers - 3 Haywire Cannons, 2 Zephyrglaive

Transports
[99] Starweaver - 2 Shuriken Cannons
[99] Starweaver - 2 Shuriken Cannons

Fortifications
[120] Webway Gate

Alaitoc Battalion
HQ
[135] Farseer Skyrunner - Twin Shuriken Catapult. Executioner, Doom
[80] Illic Nightspear

Troops
[60] 5 Rangers
[120] 10 Dire Avengers - Webway Spar
[120] 10 Dire Avengers - Webway Spar

Elites
[144] 6 Fire Dragons - Webway Strike
---
Total 2000 points & 12 Command Points remaining

So here is a leaked pic of the rule:

What is frustrating is that there is a glare making some of the words unreadable. But there is clearly a note about setting it up that reads "... place them so that an arch is formed with the <blurry word> <blurry word>

Those last 2 words are likely very important in regards to the spacing of the spires. But even with the blur, it doesn't look like specific inches are given. I suspect the spacing is likely subjective, meaning that if you can place the 6.1" apart and still "form an arch" than you can indeed place them with an objective at the center.
The best part if that the size of the objective doesn't matter since you measure from its center.

-

I assumed its no more than 1" apart

TopperHarley wrote:
I'll be taking the Storied sword - I have the old Jes Goodwin High Avatar model (so gloriously 80s!) as my Great Harlequin (yes I'll be dropping 2CP on that too!) and since a regular power sword is not as good as an embrace, will be nice to have something that matches the model!

Just remember that the Storied Sword allows the reroll of all failed hits for it's wielder, so the Great Harlequin ability will be a waste on that particular Troupe Master (though he will still provide a bonus to others around him). It is fluffy and cool though! I did a custom Troupe Master just for this relic:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I assumed its no more than 1" apart

Possible, but well have to wait until someone has the book in hand.

The other fun thing it that none of the set-up rules tell you the spires must be in a straight line, You could easily set them up at an angle/corner to each other.
It would look weird, but seems legit

-

pretty sure I saw it somewhere which stated that the gates are placed 5" apart at the base.

 bullyboy wrote:
pretty sure I saw it somewhere which stated that the gates are placed 5" apart at the base.

This is the assumption given the picture of the WK between them and the knowledge that a WK base is 5". I posted a pic of the actually rules above and only a few words are blurry, but it doesn't appear to say 5" anywhere

-

 Galef wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
pretty sure I saw it somewhere which stated that the gates are placed 5" apart at the base.

This is the assumption given the picture of the WK between them and the knowledge that a WK base is 5". I posted a pic of the actually rules above and only a few words are blurry, but it doesn't appear to say 5" anywhere

-

I just replied on the other topic:
Saw the rules today, the two arches must be set up 5" apart (that's the part you can't read in the leaked picture).
The box has the rules, but not the stratagem to get a unit out after the gate has been destroyed (that's still only for Harlies).
The pillars are a little bit smaller than what I was expecting.

fresus wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
pretty sure I saw it somewhere which stated that the gates are placed 5" apart at the base.

This is the assumption given the picture of the WK between them and the knowledge that a WK base is 5". I posted a pic of the actually rules above and only a few words are blurry, but it doesn't appear to say 5" anywhere

-

I just replied on the other topic:
Saw the rules today, the two arches must be set up 5" apart (that's the part you can't read in the leaked picture).
The box has the rules, but not the stratagem to get a unit out after the gate has been destroyed (that's still only for Harlies).
The pillars are a little bit smaller than what I was expecting.

Yeah. I don't really see a way to use this other than as a distraction piece to make your opponent waste anti tank fire to kill a 100-point thing. Even then that's super weak. It's not really useful in any way. Kind of like a drop pod you have to start on the board and if your opponent kills it before the units get out, they're dead.

And when you're unfavorably comparing something to a drop pod in 8th...