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Kilkrazy wrote: No, because that's just your opinion and you're presenting a false dichotomy that the only valid choice is to wreck the mission.
Would the film have undermined itself less if Rose has said feth the slaves, we don't care about the, let's get out of here? Of course not, it would have gone against the whole idea of the rebellion trying to free the galaxy from tyranny.
Except... for the past twenty years, the Rebellion has ruled the galaxy as the New Republic. But kids are still being enslaved....
Has the rebellion been ruling the galaxy? where did that information come from? As far as I can tell after jedi, the empire kept control.
Episode VII
THE FORCE AWAKENS
Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.
With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.
Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts….
From the Ashes of the Empire is pretty clear. The redone end of ROTJ has the Empire overthrown across the galazy IIRC.
The Republic has been in control for twenty years and apparently slavery flourishes and the First ORder if not actualy weclomed then finds plenty of support to rebuild and retake the galaxy
Damining indictment of whatever the Republic stood for..
but if the republic is in control of the galaxy, leia would be in the army, not the resistance. Same thing if it was 2 factions who split the galaxy, they'd be fighting with their armies. you resist who's in control, so that seems to me that shortly after the events from jedi, that celebration was short lived and the first order took over shortly afterwards.
restoring peace to the galaxy was the mission statement for the last 40 years when palpatine came up with it. I've always wondered what would have happened if the resistance never formed, and the emperor had peace in his galaxy.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Do Military personnel not have a duty to intervene and remove a superior Officer from command when that Officer proves (or appears) to be dangerously incompetent? Isn't there some sort of clause in Military codes and regulations permitting the forced relieving of a superior Officer?
I'm no military veteran, but I'm not sure "Listen and Believe!" flies in the military. Soldiers need to have confidence in their commanders, do they not?
Poe and the other mutineers had every reason not to trust Holdo's leadership. Holdo's open contempt for Poe clearly didn't help matters. From Poe's point of view he did everything correctly, he took action to remove what appeared to a lot of people to be a dangerously incompetent commanding officer who was leading the Resistance to its demise. He was deliberately left out of the loop and key information was withheld from him, information that would have informed and influenced his decision making.
I think the lesson here is that its bad leadership to withhold crucial information from senior and highly influential Officers, even one who was recently demoted (but retains his influence) at a time of crisis when you need everyone on the same page working towards the same goal.
Yes and no, you can refuse and illegal order (shoot those civvies), removing a senior officer is very difficult and movies never ever have they EVER got it close to being correct, you cant just demote someone in the field, it would cause all kinds of issues in the COC, same goes for removing a Commanding officer, while you can do it if you have to, just be aware that it could have some serious ramifications.
I was on a ship that had its captain removed, that happened fairly quickly. the Junior officers reported him, the admiral flew out and picked him up, the XO took over and there was much rejoicing there were no ramifications really, the former captain got to work at a desk til his retirement. The ship continued on it's mission as normal. Captains get removed for all sorts of things, with no real issues to speak of, as the recent string of collisions have shown.
Kilkrazy wrote: No, because that's just your opinion and you're presenting a false dichotomy that the only valid choice is to wreck the mission.
Would the film have undermined itself less if Rose has said feth the slaves, we don't care about the, let's get out of here? Of course not, it would have gone against the whole idea of the rebellion trying to free the galaxy from tyranny.
Except... for the past twenty years, the Rebellion has ruled the galaxy as the New Republic. But kids are still being enslaved....
Has the rebellion been ruling the galaxy? where did that information come from? As far as I can tell after jedi, the empire kept control.
Episode VII
THE FORCE AWAKENS
Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.
With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.
Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts….
From the Ashes of the Empire is pretty clear. The redone end of ROTJ has the Empire overthrown across the galazy IIRC.
The Republic has been in control for twenty years and apparently slavery flourishes and the First ORder if not actualy weclomed then finds plenty of support to rebuild and retake the galaxy
Damining indictment of whatever the Republic stood for..
but if the republic is in control of the galaxy, leia would be in the army, not the resistance. Same thing if it was 2 factions who split the galaxy, they'd be fighting with their armies. you resist who's in control, so that seems to me that shortly after the events from jedi, that celebration was short lived and the first order took over shortly afterwards.
restoring peace to the galaxy was the mission statement for the last 40 years when palpatine came up with it. I've always wondered what would have happened if the resistance never formed, and the emperor had peace in his galaxy.
As far as I could understand from the films:
The Republic took over and was ruling, Leia found out about the FO that was rising but could not convince anyone in the Republic to deal with it so formed the "Resistance" to do so. basically both the directors want to recreate the successful trilogy so they just make up stuff so that they reset it to Plucky Rebels vs Evil Empire.
Probably the same peace that Rome created "They make a desert and call it peace" - likely most people won't care as their lives will (at least to begin with) carry on normally - as seen on Casino World - slaves stay slaves, rich mostly stay rich., Everyone else just gets on with life as best they can.
its actually difficult to say as neither director could be bothered to make anything up about what if anything the FO stood for. They are just the "Evil Empire"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/01 13:46:52
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Do Military personnel not have a duty to intervene and remove a superior Officer from command when that Officer proves (or appears) to be dangerously incompetent? Isn't there some sort of clause in Military codes and regulations permitting the forced relieving of a superior Officer?
I'm no military veteran, but I'm not sure "Listen and Believe!" flies in the military. Soldiers need to have confidence in their commanders, do they not?
Poe and the other mutineers had every reason not to trust Holdo's leadership. Holdo's open contempt for Poe clearly didn't help matters. From Poe's point of view he did everything correctly, he took action to remove what appeared to a lot of people to be a dangerously incompetent commanding officer who was leading the Resistance to its demise. He was deliberately left out of the loop and key information was withheld from him, information that would have informed and influenced his decision making.
I think the lesson here is that its bad leadership to withhold crucial information from senior and highly influential Officers, even one who was recently demoted (but retains his influence) at a time of crisis when you need everyone on the same page working towards the same goal.
Yes and no, you can refuse and illegal order (shoot those civvies), removing a senior officer is very difficult and movies never ever have they EVER got it close to being correct, you cant just demote someone in the field, it would cause all kinds of issues in the COC, same goes for removing a Commanding officer, while you can do it if you have to, just be aware that it could have some serious ramifications.
I was on a ship that had its captain removed, that happened fairly quickly. the Junior officers reported him, the admiral flew out and picked him up, the XO took over and there was much rejoicing there were no ramifications really, the former captain got to work at a desk til his retirement. The ship continued on it's mission as normal. Captains get removed for all sorts of things, with no real issues to speak of, as the recent string of collisions have shown.
Ship or Military ship?
And you were not in a warzone clearly lol
2018/06/01 13:49:04
Subject: Re:Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Do Military personnel not have a duty to intervene and remove a superior Officer from command when that Officer proves (or appears) to be dangerously incompetent? Isn't there some sort of clause in Military codes and regulations permitting the forced relieving of a superior Officer?
Yes. There are. It's all done through paperwork, but in dangerous 'right now' situations you do what must be done.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'm no military veteran, but I'm not sure "Listen and Believe!" flies in the military. Soldiers need to have confidence in their commanders, do they not?
Yep, and what happens when the leader with the 'secret plan' dies? Now what does everyone do?
Earth127 wrote: Also you don't get to pick wich parts of the movie you acknowledge.
The final scene says: Luke's sacrifice was effective , he inspired hope. And the rebellion lives on, the flame is preserved.
You can think it's unrealistic. But you can't ignore it.
I can ignore it when it break my suspension of disbelief, I am somehow supposed to believe that 12 (IIRC?) people can overthrow the first order when it took decades and tens of thousands to overthrow the Empire? nah, ignite that flame all you like, unless the next trilogy is set over a long period of time they can screw off lol
I would hate it if they just offed the Empire in the next movie at the snap of a finger.... Thanos style bitches
The next film will just be ROTJ with some cosmetic changes same as TFA
Still its better than a weak version of ESB with dismal pace, plot and characters like TLJ
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Given that the third part of the trilogy has to involve a final showdown in which the Rebellion wins against the New Order, it will indeed be a reshuffle of RotJ in some sense.
However perhaps we are all a bit unrealistic to expect Star Wars to provide a radically different kind of plot. It just isn't a complex kind of genre.
I actively want the First Order to win. The characters on all sides now are so unlikeable and the New Republic has been exposed to be so corrupt and hypocritical that I'm inclined to agree with Kylo Ren. Forget the past - kill it if you have to.
I hope since we know there are more SW movies planned. They don't end with a total defeat of everything darkside. Otherwise they're just gna have to undo it again. A la RoTJ to TFA.
Yeah, can you imagine a plot in which the "bad guys" die, but it is the First Order as a whole that retains control over the galaxy.
The Stormtroopers could then be viewed more like the "valiant" Clone Troopers of the Clone wars era
Earth127 wrote: If in the next movie, the opening crawl starts with
"THE FIRST ORDER IS DEFEATED ".
I'll be right alongside you with the pitchforks. Untill then neither you nor I know what happens.
Also Rey's last words: "How do we build a rebellion from this?"
Leia's answer: "We have all we need" sees the camera pan to the happy surving rebels. They have hope.
Yeah ......
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Do Military personnel not have a duty to intervene and remove a superior Officer from command when that Officer proves (or appears) to be dangerously incompetent? Isn't there some sort of clause in Military codes and regulations permitting the forced relieving of a superior Officer?
I'm no military veteran, but I'm not sure "Listen and Believe!" flies in the military. Soldiers need to have confidence in their commanders, do they not?
Poe and the other mutineers had every reason not to trust Holdo's leadership. Holdo's open contempt for Poe clearly didn't help matters. From Poe's point of view he did everything correctly, he took action to remove what appeared to a lot of people to be a dangerously incompetent commanding officer who was leading the Resistance to its demise. He was deliberately left out of the loop and key information was withheld from him, information that would have informed and influenced his decision making.
I think the lesson here is that its bad leadership to withhold crucial information from senior and highly influential Officers, even one who was recently demoted (but retains his influence) at a time of crisis when you need everyone on the same page working towards the same goal.
Yes and no, you can refuse and illegal order (shoot those civvies), removing a senior officer is very difficult and movies never ever have they EVER got it close to being correct, you cant just demote someone in the field, it would cause all kinds of issues in the COC, same goes for removing a Commanding officer, while you can do it if you have to, just be aware that it could have some serious ramifications.
I was on a ship that had its captain removed, that happened fairly quickly. the Junior officers reported him, the admiral flew out and picked him up, the XO took over and there was much rejoicing there were no ramifications really, the former captain got to work at a desk til his retirement. The ship continued on it's mission as normal. Captains get removed for all sorts of things, with no real issues to speak of, as the recent string of collisions have shown.
Ship or Military ship?
And you were not in a warzone clearly lol
military ship, while in a warzone, ddg54, he was relieved while we were deployed in the gulf. I got the Kuwait liberation medal during that trip, not the good one though. My mind is starting to go and I forget the exact name for the operation at the time, or just names in general. I think we were still in desert storm period. We ended up having 4 captains on our first 6 month deployment, which sounds chaotic but it really wasn't, except for the brief period the second one was running it, but he only lasted a few weeks.
I can't find any articles about it to link, but did find out that another captian was relieved of command and the last XO I had on the ship got nicknamed 'holy the hun' and later removed from command.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Do Military personnel not have a duty to intervene and remove a superior Officer from command when that Officer proves (or appears) to be dangerously incompetent? Isn't there some sort of clause in Military codes and regulations permitting the forced relieving of a superior Officer?
I'm no military veteran, but I'm not sure "Listen and Believe!" flies in the military. Soldiers need to have confidence in their commanders, do they not?
Poe and the other mutineers had every reason not to trust Holdo's leadership. Holdo's open contempt for Poe clearly didn't help matters. From Poe's point of view he did everything correctly, he took action to remove what appeared to a lot of people to be a dangerously incompetent commanding officer who was leading the Resistance to its demise. He was deliberately left out of the loop and key information was withheld from him, information that would have informed and influenced his decision making.
I think the lesson here is that its bad leadership to withhold crucial information from senior and highly influential Officers, even one who was recently demoted (but retains his influence) at a time of crisis when you need everyone on the same page working towards the same goal.
Yes and no, you can refuse and illegal order (shoot those civvies), removing a senior officer is very difficult and movies never ever have they EVER got it close to being correct, you cant just demote someone in the field, it would cause all kinds of issues in the COC, same goes for removing a Commanding officer, while you can do it if you have to, just be aware that it could have some serious ramifications.
I was on a ship that had its captain removed, that happened fairly quickly. the Junior officers reported him, the admiral flew out and picked him up, the XO took over and there was much rejoicing there were no ramifications really, the former captain got to work at a desk til his retirement. The ship continued on it's mission as normal. Captains get removed for all sorts of things, with no real issues to speak of, as the recent string of collisions have shown.
Ship or Military ship?
And you were not in a warzone clearly lol
military ship, while in a warzone, ddg54, he was relieved while we were deployed in the gulf. I got the Kuwait liberation medal during that trip, not the good one though. My mind is starting to go and I forget the exact name for the operation at the time, or just names in general. I think we were still in desert storm period. We ended up having 4 captains on our first 6 month deployment, which sounds chaotic but it really wasn't, except for the brief period the second one was running it, but he only lasted a few weeks.
I can't find any articles about it to link, but did find out that another captian was relieved of command and the last XO I had on the ship got nicknamed 'holy the hun' and later removed from command.
We’d call that a systemic breakdown to have that many officers removed in such a short period, the ramifications would be felt right down to the training regime...
Out of interest what was the fallout resulting in such a clear cock up in leadership ?
there was no fall out, the first one left because he had done his time, the second one got removed, the xo became the 3rd, then we got the new captain who became the 4th. It was really just business as normal except for those 6 weeks. the other 2 got removed years later.
Which is why when I say holdo is the worst admiral ever, in any game, movie, book, or tv series, I know what I'm talking about and a airlock would have been to good for her.
there, got us off tangent and back on point
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/01 16:01:20
The Republic took over and was ruling, Leia found out about the FO that was rising but could not convince anyone in the Republic to deal with it so formed the "Resistance" to do so. basically both the directors want to recreate the successful trilogy so they just make up stuff so that they reset it to Plucky Rebels vs Evil Empire.
Probably the same peace that Rome created "They make a desert and call it peace" - likely most people won't care as their lives will (at least to begin with) carry on normally - as seen on Casino World - slaves stay slaves, rich mostly stay rich., Everyone else just gets on with life as best they can.
its actually difficult to say as neither director could be bothered to make anything up about what if anything the FO stood for. They are just the "Evil Empire"
Yea I was really interested to see what had happened after the Ewok's victory on Endor, but TFA didn't give me any sense of what had happened in the galaxy.
From the previews, I thought it was the New Republic who had built the Starkiller and were debating using it against the Imperial remnents or something. That would have been really interesting!
Earth127 wrote: You know she's in the same movie as Hux right?
Hux is actually a tactical genius. He took down the resistance with a move they never saw coming. Holdo is dumber than dirt - she could have just used the other ship that ran out of fuel in the chase for hyper-drive suicide and maybe....just maybe - had a droid pilot the ship...It's actually not difficult to aim right at a ship and press a button. A droid could have done this more precisely I think.
The Republic took over and was ruling, Leia found out about the FO that was rising but could not convince anyone in the Republic to deal with it so formed the "Resistance" to do so. basically both the directors want to recreate the successful trilogy so they just make up stuff so that they reset it to Plucky Rebels vs Evil Empire.
Probably the same peace that Rome created "They make a desert and call it peace" - likely most people won't care as their lives will (at least to begin with) carry on normally - as seen on Casino World - slaves stay slaves, rich mostly stay rich., Everyone else just gets on with life as best they can.
its actually difficult to say as neither director could be bothered to make anything up about what if anything the FO stood for. They are just the "Evil Empire"
Yea I was really interested to see what had happened after the Ewok's victory on Endor, but TFA didn't give me any sense of what had happened in the galaxy.
From the previews, I thought it was the New Republic who had built the Starkiller and were debating using it against the Imperial remnents or something. That would have been really interesting!
Ofc that is the biggest let down of all. 0 explanation of what happened after ROTJ...You know...right after they declared all of the Novels after RoTJ non canon. Hey - at least they can write a gak ton of books I'll never read so we can find out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/01 17:00:26
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You guys do know that space opera films tend to exaggerate character traits and stuff a bit, so as to tell a story in 90 minutes, right? I am not sure I would go to Star Wars to learn about 21st century US Navy human resources policies.
Anyway... I loved Holdo. She had a plan, all the time. She was quite kind to Poe even after he disobeyed orders and made a significant error that cost lives and resources. She had charisma. And she had piloting chops and a willingness to think the unthinkable. A+++. Would watch "Holdo: A Star Wars Story."
Ian Sturrock wrote: You guys do know that space opera films tend to exaggerate character traits and stuff a bit, so as to tell a story in 90 minutes, right? I am not sure I would go to Star Wars to learn about 21st century US Navy human resources policies.
Anyway... I loved Holdo. She had a plan, all the time. She was quite kind to Poe even after he disobeyed orders and made a significant error that cost lives and resources. She had charisma. And she had piloting chops and a willingness to think the unthinkable. A+++. Would watch "Holdo: A Star Wars Story."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/01 17:21:04
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
It's not just you specifically, there is an argument that JJ and RJ didn't have time to tell all the relevant details in their movies. I think it's important to keep in mind that these are actually indulgently long movies and the directors just need to reevaluate their priorities.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/01 17:21:25
there were no ramifications really, the former captain got to work at a desk til his retirement. The ship continued on it's mission as normal. Captains get removed for all sorts of things, with no real issues to speak of, as the recent string of collisions have shown.
