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I am sure I might see the answers to my questions in part 3.

The main issue is "Will it actually be satisfying or will the answer handwave everything and annoy people"

There are some people who were perfectly happy with part 2, and some other people who thought it was terrible.

It's not clear why, as the exact same scenes, dialogue and so on were watched by both sets of people.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are some people who were perfectly happy with part 2, and some other people who thought it was terrible.

It's not clear why, as the exact same scenes, dialogue and so on were watched by both sets of people.

It can happen with any film to some extent but it seems to be a very marmite film with the audience- unless you are paid critc who almost universaly believe (for wahtever reason) its one of the best films ever.

Maybe the Critics didn't have a Snoke theory that needed validation for them to enjoy it.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Maybe the Critics didn't have a Snoke theory that needed validation for them to enjoy it.

nor did i - still didn't enjoy it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You may feel all is hopeless, but the characters in the film don't.

As to the children, this seems to be a case of dramatic irony: the characters feel something because they don't know everything the audience does. The kids are retelling the story of Luke Skywalker but we know Luke Skywalker is dead and the Resistance has not only been whittled down to a handful of survivors but also has been abandoned by its erstwhile allies in its moment of uttermost need. It's kind of like a scene where everyone is laughing and having a good time because they don't know their loved one is in another room having a fatal stroke.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If you want to rationalise the scene mechanically, the fact that the legend of Luke has reached a bunch of child slaves shows that the Rebellion has survived its disastrous situation at the end of TLJ and is able to spread rumours and propaganda all over the galaxy.

I don't think that conclusion is supported by the film. What we actually see in the movie is that the kids already know about Rebellion/Resistance (and presumably Luke) when they meet Rose and Finn. The child who sees Rose's secret ring with the Rebellion symbol recognizes what it means in a positive way.

This scene also connects to TFA. Just like the kids in the stables, Rey had heard of the Resistance and Luke Skywalker even out on Jakku. This indicates the Resistance has had some success in spreading the word. Princess Leia again confirms this in TLJ by confidently asserting allies will respond to her call. But no one actually answers (despite instantaneous communication technology), much less comes to their aid, and the Resistance is all but wiped out.

Now this is how the movie itself works, this isn't my theory. This is how Rian Johnson decided to tell this story. So ending on a scene of children, who are blissfully ignorant of the terrible losses inflicted on the Resistance, looking up to the stars with hope is either intentionally ironic or absolutely hamfisted feelgoodism designed to let the audience leave the theater on a false highnote. I think it is pretty clearly the latter.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's perfectly obvious that in the third film the Rebellion will have found some way to rise again.

I think this is completely correct. It would be impossible to have a Star Wars movie otherwise, much less the climactic final installment of a trilogy.

I think you are right Manchu. Rian Johnson actually hates Star Wars and hates that people actually like this "shallow drek".

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Maybe the Critics didn't have a Snoke theory that needed validation for them to enjoy it.

This is a red herring. The issue is not that people wanted TLJ to prove them, in particular, correct about XYZ prediction. The issue is that TFA sets up the character of Snoke as important to explaining much of what TFA very much intentionally does not explain. Rian Johnson is not a moron. He understood that this is the function of Snoke in TFA. Knowing that, he decided to play it up in his movie (his vague "darkness rises" speech) just for the sake of abruptly killing off the character.

SUPRISE - SUBVERTED EXPECTATIONS!





... except it doesn't work. Because all that stuff that TFA intentionally left unexplained? Yeah, people were interested in an explanation. It didn't have to be THEIR explanation. But we were looking for something.

"But I didn't care about that," I can already hear folks cleverly retorting. Yes, and that brings us back to the question of, does any of this matter or is it just another throwaway spectacle at the cinema?

If you think the cinematic equivalent of a Big Mac is acceptable, that's fine. But that is not an argument that TLJ is a good movie. That's putting it on the same shelf as Transformers. And the Prequels.

And I can agree with that.

All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.

Yep it is and was fine as nothing more than that for the most part,. Then they made a film where its neither fun or clever and pretend its ohh so ceveer and meaningful when all it is a shody torn up version of the emperors new clothes.

No substance,

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs.

I completely disagree. They may not be intellectual masterpieces, but ANH and ESB are iconic adventure movies that have inspired millions. Those movies represent benchmarks in film making. Not that every SW film can be that way. To me, Disney can at least make fun movies with likable characters. TLJ isn't a fun movie at all, because everyone is confused, disappointed, and desperate throughout. And the fun characters introduced in TFA are undermined at every turn.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.

Yep it is and was fine as nothing more than that for the most part,. Then they made a film where its neither fun or clever and pretend its ohh so ceveer and meaningful when all it is a shody torn up version of the emperors new clothes.

No substance,

Lol. If you really agreed with me then you wouldn't spend this much time bad mouthing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs.

I completely disagree. They may not be intellectual masterpieces, but ANH and ESB are iconic adventure movies that have inspired millions. Those movies represent benchmarks in film making. Not that every SW film can be that way. To me, Disney can at least make fun movies with likable characters. TLJ isn't a fun movie at all, because everyone is confused, disappointed, and desperate throughout. And the fun characters introduced in TFA are undermined at every turn.

Iconic doesn't require depth or quality.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.

Yep it is and was fine as nothing more than that for the most part,. Then they made a film where its neither fun or clever and pretend its ohh so ceveer and meaningful when all it is a shody torn up version of the emperors new clothes.

No substance,

Lol. If you really agreed with me then you wouldn't spend this much time bad mouthing it.

I have time to spare today

All films are there to enjoy (or not) - some have a message, some don't - some pretend to do so. Like this one - aided and abetted by Critics.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Iconic doesn't require depth or quality.

I don't think ANH or ESB are especially deep movies but they are certainly quality pictures.

Snoke breaks Chekov's golden rule: If there's duelling pistols in the first act, then they should be fired in the third.

In other words, if a big deal is made of something, it needs resolution, otherwise, it's surplus to requirements and should not have been included in the first place.

Snoke is the duelling pistols. The lack of resolution is gak story telling any day of the week. It's either incompetence or the writer was complicit. Not good either way.

As Chekov is one of the all time greats, I'll trust his judgement on this.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.

And here we have it folks!

Star Wars sucks anyway! This has come up in nearly every thread on this board (and two other websites I read) from those tired of people criticizing TLJ. If you like TLJ more than all the other Star Wars, because of what it says about the Star Wars universe, fine. That is a valid opinion.

But for the love of cinema why do you like TLJ so much as to go to the bat for it? I really don't get it.

You think the resistance at its strongest is 3 big ships and a few dozen fighters and bombers while being low on fuel?

Again, a serial. We are coming in durring the middle of the conflict. The first order has harried themand chiped away at them. They are stuggling to remain standing calling for aid and people dont want to send aid to a loosing battle.

Why is it ok that ANH opens in the exact same situation but its ok then but not now?

Sorry, how are ANH and TLJ the same set up?

To put it bluntly, the Emperor's past (Since this is something detractors love to bring up) was never a big thing in the movies because he wasn't part of the big picture at the time.

We just knew that Palpatine was there in the background, leading the Empire... But the big threat and major storytelling issue happened to be entirely around Darth Vader and the other servants of the Empire. Palpatine was never around in the first episode but then again he was never a focus. Heck, the narrative focus was building up with Vader being Luke's father. Palpatine was still in the background, doing his evil things but then there was never a focus on Palpatine while Snoke was there from day 1 being evil and plotting alongside Hux and Kylo, giving orders.

Palpatine eventually does show up, but the expectation is that Darth Vader is the real muscle, that this frail old man is going to easily be toppled.. Heck, Luke throws away his lightsaber after his rage moment with Vader and basically asks the Emperor to surrender not expecting the Emperor to actually be this twisted lightning psycho sith because of how well he's apparently hidden it.

Why is it ok that ANH opens in the exact same situation but its ok then but not now?

Because that's how it starts, not how it ends? I don't know where you are going with that because they aren't comparable.

I didnt have the page refreshed properly aparently. It was in relation to another post about how nobody would come help the resistance in ep8. Which is the same question you could ask about the opening of ep4.

Palpatine IS in ep4. Hes a hologram talking to vader and giving him orders. Exactly like snoke to kylo. Again, why is it cool in anh but bad in 7?

Because he never spoke in ANH for one thing, he was first seen in hologram in The Empire Strikes Back

I didnt have the page refreshed properly aparently. It was in relation to another post about how nobody would come help the resistance in ep8. Which is the same question you could ask about the opening of ep4.

That was me! Also because they don't establish that as a plot point. Episode 8 establishes that nobody is willing to help the Resistance at all to make things seem bleaker.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Snoke breaks Chekov's golden rule: If there's duelling pistols in the first act, then they should be fired in the third.

In other words, if a big deal is made of something, it needs resolution, otherwise, it's surplus to requirements and should not have been included in the first place.

Snoke is the duelling pistols. The lack of resolution is gak story telling any day of the week. It's either incompetence or the writer was complicit. Not good either way.

As Chekov is one of the all time greats, I'll trust his judgement on this.

I think "Chekov's Gun" is a good rule of thumb for a beginning writer, but it's really not a law that narratives have to follow in order to be sensical or successful. It's very artificial and often clunky. In real life things and people constantly pass in and out of our lives without resolution. Writers with more experience and confidence can feel free to ignore or play with/subvert it.

Besides, Snoke isn't a good example of the concept.

@Manchu & Easy E: While I think you've tried to qualify it somewhat, the 'he hates X!' line is in the upper echelon of most shallow, fanboy things that one can use in a discussion. It ends up saying much more about you than any creator you're criticizing, and lends absolutely nothing to the conversation. You guys are better than that.

watched Force Awakens to prepare for another run at TLJ, why cos Rey still have a Core World Accent (ie RP English) after more than a decade on Jakku ? Apart from cos Daisy does, and whilst purty she is by far the weakest actor

@Gorgon ... I mean, you can come back with a passive aggressive insult or you can address the actual point. The universally accepted point about TLJ is Rian Johnson never missed an opportunity to subvert the audience's expectations about how a Star Wars film should play out. Why do you suppose he chose to make the main project of his opportunity to write and direct a Star Wars film to undermine the classic Star Wars beats?

I hear people say about things, "I love and am a big fan of X ... but let me tell you about how everything about X needs to change in order for it to be good." There is a contradiction there. That is what Rian Johnson seems to be saying. In interviews, he says he loves Star Wars. But you watch his Star Wars film and it seems like a full on critique of Star Wars.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

As Chekov is one of the all time greats, I'll trust his judgement on this.

He's was the Navigator on the Enterprise right?

Scrabb wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.

And here we have it folks!

Star Wars sucks anyway! This has come up in nearly every thread on this board (and two other websites I read) from those tired of people criticizing TLJ. If you like TLJ more than all the other Star Wars, because of what it says about the Star Wars universe, fine. That is a valid opinion.

But for the love of cinema why do you like TLJ so much as to go to the bat for it? I really don't get it.

By Revenge of the Sith, the prequels had killed and buried my fandom in a shallow grave. I had no intention of seeing the Force Awakens in the theater but a friend bought me a ticket. It was okay. It did what it needed to do which was prove that Disney could make a Star Wars movie. I had more interest in Rogue One, but it was just okay. The Last Jedi was again a free ticket on opening night. To my great surprise I really enjoyed it and saw it again two more times in the theater. It was the first time since Return of the Jedi I felt jazzed about Star Wars. I can understand the criticisms about the movie and I agree with some of them. But the hyperbolic crap that gets thrown at it is ridiculous. Just like the racist comment up thread. I had a 6 hour road trip almost end in a murder because my passenger couldn't stop raging about TLJ and wouldn't change the subject.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
But the hyperbolic crap that gets thrown at it is ridiculous.

"It is a bad film for the following reasons ...", however, is not hyperbolic crap. And I can understand being stuck in a car with someone going on and on about it but this thread ain't an inescapable situation.

TLJ was depressing. It took the beloved characters and trashed them. The Matrix-style training for Rey, as mentioned, is spot on. We had a trilogy that was about a Skywalker. Then a prequel trilogy also about the Skywalker family. Then, UNLESS this new trilogy ACTUALLY sends up being about Ben’s redemption after all, we have a conclusion to the plan of 9 that...ISNT about the family we’ve invested in?! The show ‘Rebels’ shows us that stories can be told and have power outside of the original crew of characters. So does Rogue One. But to take the vision of 9 movies that have 6 all about the Skywalkers, then trash that for a bum orphan version of Neo? Idiot sidekicks? Brain-dead leaders like Holdo? This movie takes a steaming dump on everything Star Wars fans loved. The fact that people in this thread somehow enjoyed it is depressing. Then again, there were people who liked the newest Fantastic F4il movie. So I guess it proves that if you make it, some fools will gobble it up. I grew up with Star Wars. I LOVED Star Wars! I don’t even want to see episode 9. I’d rather watch Hayden Christiansen run around whining.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Because he never spoke in ANH for one thing, he was first seen in hologram in The Empire Strikes Back

I didnt have the page refreshed properly aparently. It was in relation to another post about how nobody would come help the resistance in ep8. Which is the same question you could ask about the opening of ep4.

That was me! Also because they don't establish that as a plot point. Episode 8 establishes that nobody is willing to help the Resistance at all to make things seem bleaker.

Ha! yeah, And I think that is what is actually cool about the Emperor in the original trilogy. First you hear about him, then you see a little of him, and then you see him in all his glory. To be honest, I thought he was kinda cheesy. But, the lead up to him was awesome. It was... patient. They took their time and did a good job revealing him. By the time he shows up, you understand he is the most evil and feared guy in the Empire. Its almost like you share the fear and respect for him as the typical Imperial Officer might.

But the guy was a douche. And far worse in the prequels. But Snoke is also far worse. And so is his name. I am amazed I am the only one who think's Snoke's name is the worse. Supreme Leader Snoke. Wtf.

 KTG17 wrote:
And so is his name. I am amazed I am the only one who think's Snoke's name is the worse. Supreme Leader Snoke. Wtf.

Relevant:

 KTG17 wrote:

But the guy was a douche. And far worse in the prequels. But Snoke is also far worse. And so is his name. I am amazed I am the only one who think's Snoke's name is the worse. Supreme Leader Snoke. Wtf.

In the Star Wars universe there is always someone with a worse name...unless your name is Savage Opress.

 gorgon wrote:

Besides, Snoke isn't a good example of the concept.

Sure he is. What relevance does Snoke have to the story? What role does Snoke fill that couldn't be filled by other characters?

Regardless, he was never built up the way that Palpatine was because the people bowing to him weren't, themselves, fearsome. Vader and Tarkin are way more intimidating than Ren and Hux. We hear about Kylo killing all his classmates, but that happens off screen. On screen Vader kills a blockade runner crewman, lifting him off his feet by the neck and subsequently throwing his body into a wall; all with one hand. Tarkin gets points because he told that man to stop force choking someone else, and he listened.

There is far too much "tell" in TLJ, and not near enough "show".