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I've got a copy of the "Technical Readout 1945" book they did a few years ago. In that, the vehicles and weapons have traits and quirks listed. Is that a general thing now? It was always a little disappointing that various vehicles and equipment got descriptions about how some were more prone to jams than other models, or were easier to pilot, but the rules took no notice of anything like that.

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
... when every new sourcebook MASSIVLY changes the setting it's hard to "do your thing" ...

Why?

My fav part of the BTech timeline is 3058 with the counter-attack against Clan Smoke Jaguar (Operation Bid Dog/Bulldog). Given the choice the Federated Commonwealth would be an eternal kingdom and we would forever be pushing back the clans. But that didn't happen. The bitch ripped my fav faction in two, the leader of my fav nation got removed from power in an underhanded manner, there was a massive civil war and not long after that the Wobbies got nuke-happy.

But that doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I can still play games set during that period. The fact that the plot has moved into the 3150's never takes that away.

Because once you reach a point yeah you might as well just ignore everything thats happening, this is a troubling trend for a game that tends more to produce lore supplements then rules. If you wanna sell your war game based on the writing and the setting, don't wreck the setting with bad writing. Heck, you mention the FedCom civil war. I'll use that as a GREAT example of AWEFUL writing. They set up a conflict between "Nice Guy Victor" and "Most transparently mustache twirling black hat villian since Stefhen Amaris Katherine" utterly IGNORE the fedsuns laws of sucession. and then try to make it a grey conflict? umm WTF? it was just crap writing.

I agree with the problem of going full black hat with Katherine. Although the novels revealed her secret actions, at first it seemed to be setting up a more nuanced thing with the Lyran side viewing Victor as a warmonger playing soldier all the time while neglecting the domestic and economic side, and who supposedly leaned too Davion and ran roughshod over Lyran sensibilities. Somehow that intent and portrayal seemed to go out the window unfortunately, particularly with the PC games, with portrayals of the Steiner side going either full Nazi as in the PC games or being stubborn tradition bound dupes. Once more the Davion side got portrayed as the righteous heroes. I am not saying Katherine was morally good in any sense but in order to explain why she got enough support to even generate a civil war, I think more focus should have been on the grievances of the rest of Lyran society against perceived Davion arrogance and carpetbaggers.

Problem was then later in the timeline we got Caleb Davion who got the blacker than black hat role, and Daoshen Liao who also seems like a black hat retread of Max Liao. I wish the situation would stop swinging from black hat and white hat and have more mixed representations of the various rulers. Even if the meta-plot goal is to weaken a faction, this can be done without making their ruler a stereotypical moustache twirling villain.

well the problem is the FCCW WASN'T "Davion vs Steiner" and Katherine had a lot of support within the federated suns, but it's really hard to fathom WHY. she didn't have a very strong legal position (ammend that she didn't have ANY legal position) and if she had proven a skilled and effective ruler that might hhave been one thing,m but she basicly took over the FS and became a petty tyrant. it just made no sense.

Heck even the whole "Lyrans hate victor" thing made little sense once you looked at the facts, by 3057 he'd been MOSTLY ruling from Tharkad, and a "warrior king" was hardly anything new to the Lyrans

The novels seemed to show that despite being physically in Tharkad, he was making PR errors in seemingly being biased in being too pro-Davion, which didn't go over well with the Lyrans. The FedCom had improved the Lyrans' military but the theme seemed to be that there was an undercurrent of resentment over these arrogant Fedsun people coming over and upending tradition and telling everyone what to do. I guess an analogy would be that antipathy towards the "ugly American" stereotype.

I know it is post hoc hand waving, but I guess Katherine could be made out to be a political chameleon, presenting whatever the audience wants to see. To the Lyrans who took the brunt of the Clan invasion into FedCom space, she is a Steiner standing up for traditional Steiner virtues, tending to the economy instead of playing soldier like Victor, and standing up to the arrogant FedSuns carpetbagger warmongers running around telling them what to do. To the Davions, she maybe presented again as a domestic focused figure against an absentee king, commiserating with the resentful dirt-poor Davion population about having to send all their resources and troops over to aid those bumbling plutocratic Lyrans and their incompetent social generals.

 ScarletRose wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Ah so let's remove all variety from games. No room for other tastes. All much bow to same standard! Nevermind those of us who actually LIKE detailed game. They must be thrown away! No room for shock horror multiple style of games!

There are things that age well and things that don't, that's just a fact of any industry. You wouldn't release the original Sid Meyer's Civilization and then cover your ears and yell at the people who want something less pixelated and clunky.

I mean I'm not fully versed in the history of the game but has there ever been any sort of revamp or reevaluation of the game?

Of course! They call it Alpha Strike. It's fast paced, large scale, and much more modern miniatures game. Now you too can pit company against company, leading huge forces to victory in a night, rather than several months.

The great thing about Battletech is you can go as detailed as you like.

Alpha Strike, these are mechs, they do this much at short medium and long and have 3 or 4 special rules each. Standard size- 12 vs 12.

Battletech, these are mechs, you can do whatever you want with them within tonnage limits according to our build rules. Punch, kick, jump on that guy's head, plot out where each of your 12 machine guns hits that guy and see if you really have what it takes to cackle maniacally for 5 minutes of dice chucking (thanks, Piranha) Bring your 100 ton assault mech, and inexplicably lose it because that Locust somehow shot you in the ammo bin, or the head and your doofus pilot forgot to buckle up.
And it's split into 3 tech levels, Introductory, Level 2, and level 3- the weird stuff. Er Pulse X lasers? PPC capacitators? Anti laser armor, 10 ton mini mechs, 200 ton uber mechs, 5 ton uber elementals? If there's a rule they'll break it. You can even field a drone army.

Standard size- 4 vs 4 mechs.

You can even go more detailed- http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Design_Quirks For when the record sheet isn't enough, and you need to attack using your- Additional notes.

There's Solaris 7 too, which I've never dealt with- as I understand it it's a duelist division. 1 vs 1 mech combat, with an emphasis on physical combat and some very striking designs.

 ScarletRose wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Ah so let's remove all variety from games. No room for other tastes. All much bow to same standard! Nevermind those of us who actually LIKE detailed game. They must be thrown away! No room for shock horror multiple style of games!

There are things that age well and things that don't, that's just a fact of any industry. You wouldn't release the original Sid Meyer's Civilization and then cover your ears and yell at the people who want something less pixelated and clunky.

I mean I'm not fully versed in the history of the game but has there ever been any sort of revamp or reevaluation of the game?

You want faster mass mech game there's already one. Why you would want to make SECOND copy of less detailed game? What's wrong with having detailed game AND less detailed game that works better with dozen+ mechs?

What would that archieve? And why every gamer should be forced to play same game? Why cant' there be fast paced game for those who prefer it and detailed game for those who prefer it? Or for those shock horror wants to mix it up.

 ScarletRose wrote:
I mean I'm not fully versed in the history of the game but has there ever been any sort of revamp or reevaluation of the game?

Yes, in this thread, there has been lots of talk and descriptions and information on ALPHA STRIKE, the quick play large-scale Battletech game.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Point of order real quick. Shimmering Sword's mech redesigns are fantastic to be sure, but these redesigns are actually the handiwork of Alexander Iglesias, A.K.A. FlyingDebris. He works as one of the lead artist for Piranha Games Inc. who produce Mechwarrior Online. His redesigns are amazing, and he's been churning them out like crazy for several years now.

Personal favorites include the Atlas:

Spoiler:

My al time favorite 'mech, The Highlander



Another personal favorite, the Black Knight:



And his amazing redesign of the Marauder:

Check out his redesigns. I love 'em all.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Those are nice! Other than the MadCat (was that the one on the cover of the old PC Mechwarrior 2 game?) and the original Unseen, I didn't find most of the designs/art from the 80's/90's to be particularly captivating on the tabletop.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Point of order real quick. Shimmering Sword's mech redesigns are fantastic to be sure, but these redesigns are actually the handiwork of Alexander Iglesias, A.K.A. FlyingDebris. He works as one of the lead artist for Piranha Games Inc. who produce Mechwarrior Online. His redesigns are amazing, and he's been churning them out like crazy for several years now.

I love his work,too! I own a ton of his Mechwarrior Online mechs, 3d prints.
However, Catalyst hired Anthony Scroggins to do their redesigns. While they share a lot of similarities with Alex Iglesias, they are not the same.

For example, this is Alex Iglesias Wolverine (Mechwarrior Online), versus Anthony Scroggins Wolverine (Battletech), and the new Wolverine miniature, which is the Anthony Scroggins Wolverine.

Yes, in this thread, there has been lots of talk and descriptions and information on ALPHA STRIKE, the quick play large-scale Battletech game.

That's like saying Necromunda is a revision of Warhammer 40k. They may share stats and base sizes but it's not the same game nor is intended to be.

You want faster mass mech game there's already one. Why you would want to make SECOND copy of less detailed game? What's wrong with having detailed game AND less detailed game that works better with dozen+ mechs?

What would that archieve? And why every gamer should be forced to play same game? Why cant' there be fast paced game for those who prefer it and detailed game for those who prefer it? Or for those shock horror wants to mix it up.

Wow, yeah I never thought about the possibility of just never changing anything no matter how old and out of date it is and just endlessly faux-raging at anyone who suggests anything

How could I have been so remiss.

 judgedoug wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I really, really hope they can get (& keep) the starter in stock,

it's frustrating to have to tell people 'this would be a good one the get but.....'

I'll be getting at least one of each set just for the Anthony Scroggins (Shimmering Sword) Mech redesigns.

I can't love this sentiment enough!!! Wha its great is that I just got back into the mech pilot's seat as I introduce my kid to the game...

What's old is new again! Absolutly stoked to pick up those mechs again. I started with about 5, and going to get the lances in. I noticed that the new ones are like a spot taller then the older minis, is it ok to mix and match them, or do I use the new stat lines?

Except that there HAVE been revisions and reiterations over the years, it's usually just including the errata and cleaning up the language of the rulebooks, which is really all that was necessary.

When Catalyst first took over from Wizkidz/FanPro in 2006ish, they released a new main rulebook that was miles ahead of what had come before, but primarily because it used modern gaming rulebook graphic designs and was full color. Older editions had always been black and white images in the standard 2-column text style of most 1990's rulebooks.

But, it also had some minor changes to the rules themselves, the biggest of which was the change to partial cover. It went from a +3 modifier but you used the punch table chart to only a +1 but using the regular hit table and any leg hits would impact the cover instead (and possibly damage that terrain). Huge change, since previously you rarely hid behind a hill (too easy to be headshot on the punch table). Beyond that, you only really needed minor changes and errata , the rules have always worked pretty well for what they were meant to do.

 ScarletRose wrote:
Wow, yeah I never thought about the possibility of just never changing anything no matter how old and out of date it is and just endlessly faux-raging at anyone who suggests anything How could I have been so remiss.

One thing that is easily lost when discussing Battletech is that it is, at it's core, and will always be, a hex and counter wargame. Actual, real wargaming is it's own niche, represented mainly by GMT and Multi-Man Publishing and other smaller publishers. Advanced Squad Leader is, by far, one of the most popular and well recognized and awarded wargames of all time and it has basically not changed in over 30 years, and is lauded because of this.

So, cut to Battletech. Battetech is also hugely popular - enough so that it has also slipped more mainstream and caught the attention of tabletop gamers and miniatures gamers, thankfully in no small part to the miniatures - but at it's core is still a mostly unchanged wargames ruleset because that is what wargames are. Battletech is a hex and counter wargame and will always be primarily that way. There is no reason to ever significantly change the core rules because that is not what its audience nor genre expects of it. The rules, stats, hexes, etc are what makes Battletech what it is.

Alpha Strike is the miniatures game.

Another reason to continue my love/hate relationship with Battletech, great!

 judgedoug wrote:
I'm totally unaware of this. CGL doesn't really manufacture miniatures.* Iron Wind Metals makes metal minis for Battletech (with varying levels of quality).

I am talking about the Iron Wind versions. It was the last batch (I think 20th), can't remember how many GenCons ago but they showed 3d printed prototypes. I first thought not bad prototypes but you could see the print lines, which they ended using them as masters I'm guessing because the casted versions had the same issues. A couple of them had fingerprints, but those tend to be before the prints not from the prints itself, on early versions that made it into casting.

That said the lines aren't horrible and they probably made the decision that they are panel lines, armor plating that translates into them well. So even though they are there, unless you saw the original prints, most people would think they are meant to be part of the miniature. Plastic ends up being a toss-up for them. They usually end up awful though, at least the last batches. I'd rather have the metal versions, at least they were correct sizes. I'd prefer them in resin personally but I'm biased. ^_^

This is what I expect from prototypes that would become display pieces. No print lines, clear distinction of pieces, high detail, and good quality. Of course, I say that despite the picture is bad and I didn't finish cleaning but still have post-processing to do it was just after support removal.

 judgedoug wrote:
I agree totally; I've been waiting for an Alpha Strike box set too. I'm personally of the opinion that Alpha Strike should be CGL's main market focus, with traditional Battletech being more of a "specialist" kind of game. But I unfortunately don't control CGL business decisions

Yeah I was all excited to jump back in, been waiting and waiting as it keeps getting pushed out. I know they made a big push last year for "other games" to diversify a bit more which has factored into things a bit. They completely missed timing though with Battletech computer game, they had a really good opportunity to use that momentum.

 Dark Severance wrote:
Plastic ends up being a toss-up for them. They usually end up awful though, at least the last batches. I'd rather have the metal versions, at least they were correct sizes. I'd prefer them in resin personally but I'm biased.

what do you mean by that? The last plastics, from 2014 to now, are incredibly detailed, and, imho, are superior to the metal versions. I have actually replaced most of my RP and IWM models now completely with MWO 3d prints and resins and the recent Catalyst plastic mechs.

Without getting all "grognard/get off my lawn!", the reason I've always preferred traditional BattleTech to Alpha Strike is just that BattleTech is a digital game. The hexes make things certain - you are either in range, or not, in LOS, or not, in cover, or not. There's no ambiguity of positioning as it's all based on structured, measured and labelled mapsheets*.

Alpha Strike is just another miniatures game, with all the benefits and negatives associated with such, including measuring out movement, range, looking for LOS, interpreting cover and so on. I get enough of that with 40K and Necromunda. I don't want that for BattleTech.

That and I have so much terrain that having to replicate all this in 6mm just turns me off.

[EDIT]: And about the plastics, the minis from the most recent starterbox are great. They're the same sculpts as the previous starterbox (but with thicker bases with the unit's chassis model printed on them), but the quality was miles better. This extended out to the Lance Packs, which gave us a whole host of new 'Mechs in plastic (Hatchetman, Wolfhound, Vulcan, Blackjack, and quite a few more, including my personal fav, the Guillotine).

*And we all know how I feel about maps and tiles!

These are the prototype Warhammer models from GenCon 2016...



As for 3D prototypes, I believe that would have to be CGL. As far as I know, Iron Wind Metals does everything strictly old school.

Yeah, I doubt IWM (the hints in the name!!!) would be doing plastic.

Shame that Warhammer never came out. Out and out my fav IS 'Mech.

Damn you HG!!!

 Ghaz wrote:
As for 3D prototypes, I believe that would have to be CGL. As far as I know, Iron Wind Metals does everything strictly old school.

Negative, IWM has been using some digital sculptors for a few years now.

I've never tried Alpha Strike, I'm too much of a Btech hardcore fan, but I'm giving it a try this time around. I've bought most of the available books until, like BrianDavion, I became fed up with the timeline around Jihad (The this could be true or not style of the Jihad sourcebooks killed my interest) But now I'm excited again and plan to get 2 beginners boxes and a starter at the very least. One cannot have enough mechs!
(Tho that puts me in the difficult position of having to finish all the mechs I have unpainted )

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
(Tho that puts me in the difficult position of having to finish all the mechs I have unpainted )M.

That's pretty universal in this hobby.

I admit, reading about this upcoming release has got me thinking about BT for the first time in well over two decades.

 Ghaz wrote:
These are the prototype Warhammer models from GenCon 2016...



As for 3D prototypes, I believe that would have to be CGL. As far as I know, Iron Wind Metals does everything strictly old school.

It the plethora of old FASA models available and other sources like the defunct Robotech game Ironwind never made it into my games in the 30 years I have played the game. Their awful renditions of the unseen and high prices turned off ant chance of that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

[EDIT]: And about the plastics, the minis from the most recent starterbox are great. They're the same sculpts as the previous starterbox (but with thicker bases with the unit's chassis model printed on them), but the quality was miles better.

For the price point (about $AU1 ea) I didnt mind the older plastics. They needed a rebase and a camo paint scheme to hide some of the awful edges/hollows but for the price point I would much prefer 10-15 lower quality plastics than 1 superb metal model.

But I am pretty tight when it comes to the wargaming budget especially on sideline games like btech that rarely get played.

 MangoMadness wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

[EDIT]: And about the plastics, the minis from the most recent starterbox are great. They're the same sculpts as the previous starterbox (but with thicker bases with the unit's chassis model printed on them), but the quality was miles better.

For the price point (about $AU1 ea) I didnt mind the older plastics. They needed a rebase and a camo paint scheme to hide some of the awful edges/hollows but for the price point I would much prefer 10-15 lower quality plastics than 1 superb metal model.

But I am pretty tight when it comes to the wargaming budget especially on sideline games like btech that rarely get played.

Yeah, the 2009 release of Battletech was terrible - they never quite got over the negative PR, despite switching to a new manufacturer entirely for the plastics for the 30th anniversary reprint of the box, and all the Lance Packs. Most people saw the 2009 plastics, went "blech!" and then stopped paying attention, missing out on the news of the 2014 rerelease and subsequent new plastic models (which are, imho, superior to the metal models from IWM! they're cleaner and sharper and loads more durable)

Grasshopper and Zeus from the 2014-2017 plastics range

Is it bad that when I got the previous starter with the dodgy plastics (not including the two deluxe models), I couldn't even tell some of the models apart due to their quality?

 BrookM wrote:
Is it bad that when I got the previous starter with the dodgy plastics (not including the two deluxe models), I couldn't even tell some of the models apart due to their quality?

If you're talking about the 2014 re-release, I'll buy it from you.

 judgedoug wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Is it bad that when I got the previous starter with the dodgy plastics (not including the two deluxe models), I couldn't even tell some of the models apart due to their quality?

If you're talking about the 2014 re-release, I'll buy it from you.

No the one before that I think. 25th anniversary edition with a big Origins Award logo on the front of the box.

 BrookM wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Is it bad that when I got the previous starter with the dodgy plastics (not including the two deluxe models), I couldn't even tell some of the models apart due to their quality?

If you're talking about the 2014 re-release, I'll buy it from you.

No the one before that I think. 25th anniversary edition with a big Origins Award logo on the front of the box.

Gotcha, so the 2009 one referenced before your post

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I've got a copy of the "Technical Readout 1945" book they did a few years ago. In that, the vehicles and weapons have traits and quirks listed. Is that a general thing now? It was always a little disappointing that various vehicles and equipment got descriptions about how some were more prone to jams than other models, or were easier to pilot, but the rules took no notice of anything like that.

Quirks are an additional rule if you want to add them into your game. The BattleMech Combat Manual listed almost all 'Mech chassis in use and their quirks if they had not been listed in a publication prior. ANd quirks are assigned by CHASSIS, not individual variant.

It also provided some quick rules for adding quirks to home made designs.

 judgedoug wrote:
Yeah, the 2009 release of Battletech was terrible

thats why you can pick them up so cheap

I did this with mine, not great but playable. Unifying the base size really helps alot

I feel like that 2009 starter is getting a lot of rather undeserved hate. Like Mango says, rebasing the '09 plastics helps a lot, but so does a decent paint job. Similar to the old starter with the plastic Warhammer/thunderbolt/marauder etc, they could be mostly saved by a decent coat of paint. In hindsight, compared to the 2014 release then the mechs were sub-par, but honestly the '09 box set was pretty fantastic at the time.

I was still working at a FLGS when it released, and yes the models were not that great, but they were recognizable as what they were and you got 24 unique mechs PLUS the rulebooks PLUS the fluff book PLUS the maps. It wasn't just a starter, but a fairly decent sized collection in that box. We sold a LOT of that starter set. It not only got some of the old players back into it but also a whole bunch of new players that were only familiar with the videogames or clickytech.

Many of the new players went on to purchase additional IWM mechs and we actually had a 14 person league going for a while (in 2009!), about half of which were brand new players.

The updated the plastics in the 2014 box are great, but it didn't match the brand new excitement that the 2009 set did (at least locally).

I'm excited for this new starter with the completely resculpted mechs, but while the models look miles ahead of the 2009 starter, you only get 8. Getting 24 in the old set, even if they were low quality, was an incredible value to a brand new player