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 Barzam wrote:
As Highlord Tamburlaine said, Hokuto no Ken was absolutely aimed at kids. Probably kids in their teens, but kids none the less. Yeah, the Devilnan manga wasn't, but the original anime certainly was. Takara even had action figures of him at the time. But, as Highlord Tamburlaine also said, that was Japan and a different point in time, where it was perfectly acceptable to depict a dog's head being ripped off by a psychotic bear and have it thrown at the dog's allies (Ginga Nagareboshi Gin, a true treasure trove of horrifying imagery aimed at kids). So, I suppose then, let's not forget that in the 90s, Aliens, Terminator, Predator, and Starship Troopers were all marketed towards kids, too. Aliens was even going to have a Saturday morning cartoon.

See, I think that is very misleading. In the 70s and early 80s, there wasn't really age distinctions being made about the material being created. There wasn't a rating system, nor even broadcast standards really, and a lot of these titles didn't push boundaries because there were no boundaries to be pushed (a lot of the material made during this time, such as Go Nagai's Harenchi Gakuen, ended up defining the standards). Stuff like Hokuto no Ken wasn't made for an audience of children, but children read them - just like Aliens and Predator weren't made for children, but children watched them. Hell, as a 12 year old, I loved slasher films and there's no way that Friday the 13th was aimed at 12 year olds.

And Roughnecks, the Starship Troopers cartoon, was amazing. It was tonally appropriate for children, but it was definitely something that was probably more aimed at people who watched the movie and read the novel (aka older teens and adults).

I think most people here think the Warhammer Adventures books are going to be more like the Robocop cartoon than Roughnecks. Who knows? Maybe it will surprise everybody, but when people create material specifically for children, they tend to underestimate their capabilities and intelligence.

It isn’t changing 40k from a brutal, nihilistic fantasy opera in space. It’s offering a different view into the universe for younger readers. It’s not aimed at us and it’s not gonna affect us.

It isn’t changing 40k from a brutal, nihilistic fantasy opera in space. It’s offering a different view into the universe for younger readers. It’s not aimed at us and it’s not gonna affect us

It might not. I understand we aren't it's intended audience.

This could be a good move to bring in fresh blood for the Imperial war machine.

All I'm saying is that it's a slippery slope. One I feel we are already sliding down.

Heh. Worth a shot.

Children as protagonists in 40k could work extremely well to uncover the sheer horror, fanaticism and misery of that setting, if handled like the Swedish author Olov Svedelid handled his historical novels for children. He wrote for adults as well, and they were filled with lurid, shocking, bloody and oppressive bits to boot, with filth and stern harshness and disease and hunger shining through. His books for children were no less true and harsh than his books for adults, just written from child's perspective:

You had a protagonist whose valiant and sympathetic peasant father participated in a revolt against the crown, and thus getting beheaded at the end of the book while the protagonist lived. You had a boy seeing all his male kinsmen slaughtered in the massacre that was the battle of Visby, waking in a shallow mass grave to a sunny day at the end of the book after passing out unconscious from some glancing mace blow or another. You had another boy whose sister got hired as a servant at the royal castle, becoming the mad king's mistress, whereupon the boy got hired as well, being led as a participant and informer into a net of intrigue and torture as an apprentice to a Machiavellian advisor to the king. No happy ending there! In another book, the protagonist was smacked hard by his stern father while the two were out foraging for food in war-torn Poland; the father went through the ice and drowned right at the start of the novel, leaving his son with that stark memory in mind for the march across the Belts. These are all books filled with drunkenness, violence, mice, rats, lice, filth, savage ravages of raiding, blood baths, executions, torture, medical unanaesthetized amputation, starvation, beset armies freezing to death in snow storms, plots, lies, fear, poverty, crime, rowdy soldiers, attention to detail, completely faithful worldview for the times concerned, pomp and majesty, brilliant colourful descriptions and utter realism. War, disease and hunger for power are all revealed in their raw nature, all seen through children's eyes. Good books to grow up by, and hardening stories.

A pity they've never been translated into English, because I wish I could point you to English translations.

Something of the kind would be perfect for 40k. An author like Matthew Farrer could handle it without trouble. Not that I expect the adventure books here to be of the kind (they might be fun enough in a more lighthearted wish fulfilment way, who knows?), but just mentioning: Children as protagonists in 40k is not a stupid concept in and of itself.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

It isn’t changing 40k from a brutal, nihilistic fantasy opera in space. It’s offering a different view into the universe for younger readers. It’s not aimed at us and it’s not gonna affect us

It might not. I understand we aren't it's intended audience.

This could be a good move to bring in fresh blood for the Imperial war machine.

All I'm saying is that it's a slippery slope. One I feel we are already sliding down.

How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?

How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?

Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.

The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?

Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.

The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.

You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this.

I thought taking the old world out back and forcibly introducing it to the Deathstar was the worse thing ever.

But there are fates worse than death, and GW seems intent on inflicting them all on the 40K fluff.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

As others have said, there's plenty of space in both GW worlds for more family friendly stories to be told.

Is there though? I mean, sure, there nothing actively preventing it being done, but how do you tell a story aimed at kids that young and have it connect to a broader reality like 40K in any meaningful way? 40K consists of a galaxy-spanning fascist theocratic super-bureaucracy and the many even worse things that are trying to destroy and and devour the flesh and/or souls of its subjects. In order to even approach "family friendly" you'll have to pick a pretty vanilla "civilised" classified world and zoom in so far on it that it would just be like a bunch of kids cosplaying 40K characters on our planet right now, except every adult they met went along with the fiction.

You can hit "young adult" within the thematic and tonal range of 40K fairly easily these days(in fact other than in the quality of the actual prose it's been rare for BL novels to stretch much beyond YA for a fair long while now), but an actual book for wee kids? You'd have to jettison everything that makes the setting what it is, or else make something wildly inappropriate for their age. You could get away with it for AoS because the tone it strikes is quite different, but 40K is not Star Wars, the reason you can have stuff for the kiddies that feeds right into that setting is that fundamentally the films are also family friendly affairs, there are no rape-gods or slaughter-gods or aliens who're essentially a physical embodiment of entropy coming to eat you alive and digest you in acid, and the "good guys" are, mostly, actually good people and even a lot of the baddies have good intentions, rather than the general garbage-ness of humanity and their foes in 40K.

Most of us grew up with stories like this, be it in the form of books, movies, or games.

I don't recall any of the Saturday morning cartoons or children's books I consumed as a wee boy leading into anything even remotely like 40K. They were either aimed at that demographic in their entirety, or they led into Disney-style family friendly fare with slightly more narrative complexity, not a lovecraftian horror or organisation dedicated to bigotry, hatred, and torture in sight.

It just seems...weird.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think he’s making it up as he goes along meself.

These are books aimed at 8-12 year old kids, who will almost certainly already be showing an interest in the game worlds.

Why wouldn’t a company want to tap that vein? Since when was diversifying a bad thing? Or become this nebulous ‘probably means whatever he wants it to mean) brand dilution?

See, when I was an 8-12 year old kid showing interest in the game worlds, I read the army books and the novels about the game world. Because the game world, the 40K and WHF settings, dark and 'orrible as they are, were the appeal, and the idea of being given a neutered version with the safety locks on would have completely turned me off because it defeats the purpose of progressing from that kind of "for kids" material to something more mature(for an 8-12 year old).

You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this

Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.

Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.

Honestly, most BL books aren't that unsuitable for kids in my opinion. I mean look at LOTR, that has some dark stuff in it and we give that to kids.

 Nova_Impero wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?

Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.

The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.

You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this.

To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.

Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this

Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.

Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.

You dropped 40k with me and we all can even.

 Nova_Impero wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this

Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.

Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.

You dropped 40k with me and we all can even.

I'm sorry, what? I don't speak teenage girl

I am an adult and I'm going to read these books. Fight me.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Nova_Impero wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?

Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.

The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.

You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this.

To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.

Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.

Fair enough. I apologize for my earlier remark, Brutus.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this

Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.

Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.

Silly you. If you don't like every single thing that GW the beneficent does, the only sensible thing is to immediately throw away everything you ever bought from them, cause you are entitled, a whiner and you are NOT worthy

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.

But the old Marines are not doomed (except to be replaced on the shelves by Primaris equivalents over the next couple years)? Nor does the Primaris gene seed remove any significant flaws in the stock Marine gene seed(because there aren't any significant flaws in most Marine gene seed strains except perhaps the Blood Angels. Marines are not Thunder Warriors)?

 Yodhrin wrote:

Most of us grew up with stories like this, be it in the form of books, movies, or games.

I don't recall any of the Saturday morning cartoons or children's books I consumed as a wee boy leading into anything even remotely like 40K. They were either aimed at that demographic in their entirety, or they led into Disney-style family friendly fare with slightly more narrative complexity, not a lovecraftian horror or organisation dedicated to bigotry, hatred, and torture in sight.

It just seems...weird.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think he’s making it up as he goes along meself.

These are books aimed at 8-12 year old kids, who will almost certainly already be showing an interest in the game worlds.

Why wouldn’t a company want to tap that vein? Since when was diversifying a bad thing? Or become this nebulous ‘probably means whatever he wants it to mean) brand dilution?

See, when I was an 8-12 year old kid showing interest in the game worlds, I read the army books and the novels about the game world. Because the game world, the 40K and WHF settings, dark and 'orrible as they are, were the appeal, and the idea of being given a neutered version with the safety locks on would have completely turned me off because it defeats the purpose of progressing from that kind of "for kids" material to something more mature(for an 8-12 year old).

The pyrdian chrnonicles (not the Disney version) was pretty damn dark. I still think Tallarn the wanderer(5th book of the series) should be required reading in Jr. High.

Secret of Nimh was dark, political, and pretty much made to scare US children into becoming democrats.

There was the battletech cartoon. People just failed to die despite massive amounts of firepower and explosions happening in their faces. It was pretty PC except the whole 'don't trust the jap' theme they had going. I have fond memories of it and wish I had one of those toys they made.

I'm going to wait and see on this. I suspect a few teens are in for a huge shock when they transition, but don't they already have that with Star Wars and LOTR?

Needs more space marines. As far back as I remember I was always drawn to big action, monsters and heroes. Put a space marine on the cover punching an ork to get the kid to pick it up and look at it.

 Nova_Impero wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?

Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.

The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.

You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this.

DakkaDakka exists on the premise that ceasing to play a game should have no bearing on discussing it

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Nova_Impero wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this

Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.

Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.

You dropped 40k with me and we all can even.

I'm sorry, what? I don't speak teenage girl

Uncalled for.

 Grimtuff wrote:

To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.

Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.

First off, Cracked has been gak for years now, and turning to them for advice on how to live your life is like turning to a meth addict for how to live drug free.

Second, you have control and responsibility over your children. You do not have control or responsibility over your entertainment. They are owned and operated by their organizations and creators, and you don't get to do jack gak about that. You can't take it from them. You can make suggestions, but they can ignore you. You can not buy it out of protest, but unless enough people share your outrage, it won't change anything. The only avenue available to you to is find something else that you do enjoy, and stop fixating on the perceived flaws and failures of that which you don't.

There's this thing called the "sunk cost fallacy", which basically means that your investments (emotional and financial) make it difficult, if not impossible, to make the best decision concerning your continued investment in a product. In other words, spending hundreds of dollars on models and thousands of hours painting them end up making you unwilling to write off that cost and move on. Then you just sort of sit there, all bitter and angry, because the thing you want and the thing you have aren't the same, and your sunk cost just gets you into a resentful loop where that bitterness and anger just magnifies over time when the simple and obvious solution is staring you in the face the entire time.

Warhammer isn't your kids. It's somebody else's. And if they do something foolish that pisses you off, don't play with them.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Needs more space marines. As far back as I remember I was always drawn to big action, monsters and heroes. Put a space marine on the cover punching an ork to get the kid to pick it up and look at it.

It has Space Marines listed - want to guess the chapter?

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.

Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.

First off, Cracked has been gak for years now, and turning to them for advice on how to live your life is like turning to a meth addict for how to live drug free.

Second, you have control and responsibility over your children. You do not have control or responsibility over your entertainment. They are owned and operated by their organizations and creators, and you don't get to do jack gak about that. You can't take it from them. You can make suggestions, but they can ignore you. You can not buy it out of protest, but unless enough people share your outrage, it won't change anything. The only avenue available to you to is find something else that you do enjoy, and stop fixating on the perceived flaws and failures of that which you don't.

There's this thing called the "sunk cost fallacy", which basically means that your investments (emotional and financial) make it difficult, if not impossible, to make the best decision concerning your continued investment in a product. In other words, spending hundreds of dollars on models and thousands of hours painting them end up making you unwilling to write off that cost and move on. Then you just sort of sit there, all bitter and angry, because the thing you want and the thing you have aren't the same, and your sunk cost just gets you into a resentful loop where that bitterness and anger just magnifies over time when the simple and obvious solution is staring you in the face the entire time.

Warhammer isn't your kids. It's somebody else's. And if they do something foolish that pisses you off, don't play with them.

Kool aid is delicious, don't you agree?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.

Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.

First off, Cracked has been gak for years now, and turning to them for advice on how to live your life is like turning to a meth addict for how to live drug free.

Second, you have control and responsibility over your children. You do not have control or responsibility over your entertainment. They are owned and operated by their organizations and creators, and you don't get to do jack gak about that. You can't take it from them. You can make suggestions, but they can ignore you. You can not buy it out of protest, but unless enough people share your outrage, it won't change anything. The only avenue available to you to is find something else that you do enjoy, and stop fixating on the perceived flaws and failures of that which you don't.

There's this thing called the "sunk cost fallacy", which basically means that your investments (emotional and financial) make it difficult, if not impossible, to make the best decision concerning your continued investment in a product. In other words, spending hundreds of dollars on models and thousands of hours painting them end up making you unwilling to write off that cost and move on. Then you just sort of sit there, all bitter and angry, because the thing you want and the thing you have aren't the same, and your sunk cost just gets you into a resentful loop where that bitterness and anger just magnifies over time when the simple and obvious solution is staring you in the face the entire time.

Warhammer isn't your kids. It's somebody else's. And if they do something foolish that pisses you off, don't play with them.

Kool aid is delicious, don't you agree?

I think you may have gotten lost. 4chan and general posting is over in that >> general direction.

I hope they write one about a Space Marine named Spots

One could bring popcorn and watch this thread unfold as evening entertainment.

I see no danger here since it is unlikely to influence the background proper. Expand the franchise or die. Mayhap GW and its filials are working more and more after the scattershot or spaghetti principle: Throw pasta on the wall and see what sticks, then develop that further (cf. the many licenses sold to various game developers and the plethora of hit-or-miss games it has led to). A dud is a dud and quickly forgotten. A success lives on by virtue of quality.

The 40K side of that picture has not a single weapon in it, and whilst the guy brandishing the girder is amusing, I don't know how one could do a 40K story that didn't involve violence and weapons in some way.

But hey, can't judge something just on one picture, so let's look at the website and the character profiles...

The New Website wrote:Sharing her mum's hatred of weaponry...

Ah! So there we are.

The television show Clone Wars was a schizophrenic show that could never quite decide if it was an kid show or an adult show, and whilst is got pretty solidly darker in its final two years one thing it never shied away from, not even in its first episode, was the truth that it was a cartoon about a war. I don't think this kind of reduction helps 40K.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Needs more space marines. As far back as I remember I was always drawn to big action, monsters and heroes. Put a space marine on the cover punching an ork to get the kid to pick it up and look at it.

It has Space Marines listed - want to guess the chapter?

I don't know man that's a tough one! There are just so many options you can go with! I am going to take a radical guess though and put money on a real outlier choice.

I'll take Ultrmarines for $500, Bob.

Edit: Come to think of it I really want to see a jamaican salamander who is always hugging people and being an overly nice guy.