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Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




UK

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'm pretty sure you could deconstruct most 40K books in similar fashion as lots of them depend on crazy conincidences, implausible combat results, dubious decisions by the opposition etc

(not that I've read it to be able to say whether on not it works as a fun adventure novel)


The Guardian did a nice article about how Les Miserables should actually be titled Les Coincidences. It isn't just 40K apparently.

   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






Coincidences, McGuffin's, and deus ex machinas have been a key component of storytelling since humanity began telling stories. I'll never get why people complain about them.

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Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

Of course theres different forms of coincidences and Deus Ex Machinas. Ones are more glaring than others.

But the quality I expect for a children book is much lower than I would expect for a adult book. And sadly Horus Heresy fiction is full of this kind of lazy writting.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Orem, Utah

Sadly, these books are not well written.

The problems in the Warhammer Adventure books are more basic than Deus Ex Machina or the way they handle coincidence. The authors seem to have no intuition about information flow. Example from the sample:

Spoiler:
Our protagonist is being threatened by a ganger- is this really the time to break scene and talk about the taxonomy of scaled panthers?


They also can't figure out what a Point of View is. I mean, these are really basic mistakes. When an author makes a mistake like this, the editor is supposed to make them fix it, but I get the impression that the editor might have been making them add more of these mistakes

Spoiler:
"No really, I want you to describe the the meeting between our protagonist and her mother as disconnected to either of them as possible"
"How about we start the story off with the image of a bird or dragon thing swooping down on something, and our protagonist faintly hears that maybe something has happened to something nearby? Puts us right in scene, you know?"
"Oh, the progagonist is worried and trying to contact her mother. This is an excellent moment to talk about how her mother's archeological partner is a scholar and an expert in dead languages both human and alien"
"Can you make the prose more purple without passing up a middle grade vocabulary? That'd be great."



These are not problems that are pervasive in Middle Grade fiction (remember people- these books are meant for kids who could be reading Harry Potter instead). And this isn't something you have to put up with for all licensed worlds either. I mean, I really wish these books were written as well as the "Ever After High" series (they got a good author and probably a decent editor to boot).



Sadly, Games Workshop has failed at choosing good authors or editors. Mind, they often make the same mistakes with their adult fiction, so these aren't new problems. And it isn't that no one will enjoy them, but I won't. And I feel like there is so much potential to be better.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/27 22:51:26


 
   
Made in gb
Boosting Space Marine Biker





Scotland

Honestly I don't get what niche these books are meant to be appealing to. Part of the Warhammer/40k appeal was that it was dark and a bit adult for younger audiences. Kind of like how you'd end up watching The Terminator and Aliens at like 8 or 9 years old.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/29 22:41:23


 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Gael Knight wrote:
Honestly I don't get what niche these books are meant to be appalling to. Part of the Warhammer/40k appeal was that it was dark and a bit adult for younger audiences. Kind of like how you'd end up watching The Terminator and Aliens at like 8 or 9 years old.


My parents thought that Jaws and the Alien series were appropriate viewing for 8 year olds. But Reefer Madness was too far.


This sig was deemed too political for Dakka.
Meanwhile, Cato Sicarius is appearing on Alex Jones.
 
   
Made in us
Leader of the Sept






With the thickness of the book(or lack of) and font size it seems like these books where rushed out with the idea that if it's for kids who needs it to be good, just have what kids like in it, with no real understanding of what kids like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Gael Knight wrote:
Honestly I don't get what niche these books are meant to be appalling to. Part of the Warhammer/40k appeal was that it was dark and a bit adult for younger audiences. Kind of like how you'd end up watching The Terminator and Aliens at like 8 or 9 years old.


My parents thought that Jaws and the Alien series were appropriate viewing for 8 year olds. But Reefer Madness was too far.

See I grew up on teen comedies, American Pie, Scary Movie, all those movies you shouldn't see when your below 10, throw in RoboCop and Troma Movies....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/31 08:51:29


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Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

The first Star Wars book I ever read was about R2-D2, C3P0 and a 7 year old boy using an escape pod to destroy a Star Destroyer. They rammed it into the Star Destroyer's bridge (it's never explained how they got past the shields) and jumped out (into space) before it hit. Also all however many 1000s of Imperial Personnel aboard the ship managed to evacuation in the seconds of time they would have had before they impact, and nobody died.

It was a stupid story but I was also 6 years old when I read it, and I enjoyed it because 6 year olds aren't looking for internal consistency or faithfulness to the setting in their books. 6 year olds want pretty pictures and some action.

How sad must your life be as an adult to have an emotional investment in the writing of a book for kids.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/31 09:39:21


 
   
Made in us
Leader of the Sept






Except these are meant more for 11-13 year olds, who by that time are already reading more complex books, like harry potter, long chapter books and so forth, not stuff like this

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






You can't really speak on behalf of all kids that age you know? Those ages are only guidelines. Some younger ones are going to pick it up, some older. All depends on reading ability and what they want out of a book. Don't lump them all under the same category.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






The number of "adults" who take these books way too seriously just astounds me.

2750 Unliving Legion of the Zarith Dynasty
840 Imperial Knights of House Janis
2000 Khorne Bloodbound of the Skullfiend Tribe (Aqshy)
2000 Tzeentch Arcanites of the Cult of Searing Light (Hysh)
3000 Slaves to Darkness of the Legion of Rusted Chains (Allpoints/Azyr)
2500 Sylvaneth of the Seelie Court (Ghyran)
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 EnTyme wrote:
The number of "adults" who take these books way too seriously just astounds me.

Just out of interest, what is the precise level of acceptable seriousness with which this [or any] piece of media should be taken?


   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





4.3 USI (unit of serious interest), up to 4.7 MAXIMUM. Above is just too much.

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If you believe that marines aren't powerful enough on the tabletop to match the fluff, remember that Custodes got rules but Planetary Defense Force don't. 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






 Lord Damocles wrote:
 EnTyme wrote:
The number of "adults" who take these books way too seriously just astounds me.

Just out of interest, what is the precise level of acceptable seriousness with which this [or any] piece of media should be taken?




Probably somewhere around the point where you start to seemingly take personal offense to inadequacies in a book series for which you are obviously not the target audience. Unless, of course, you are an 11-13 year-old. If that's the case, critique away!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 19:50:48


2750 Unliving Legion of the Zarith Dynasty
840 Imperial Knights of House Janis
2000 Khorne Bloodbound of the Skullfiend Tribe (Aqshy)
2000 Tzeentch Arcanites of the Cult of Searing Light (Hysh)
3000 Slaves to Darkness of the Legion of Rusted Chains (Allpoints/Azyr)
2500 Sylvaneth of the Seelie Court (Ghyran)
 
   
Made in us
Leader of the Sept






I mean, If I want to buy my nephew s this book, I should want to know it's good. Just cause you think kids should read garbage doesn't mean I do.

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Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I mean, If I want to buy my nephew s this book, I should want to know it's good. Just cause you think kids should read garbage doesn't mean I do.
If you think Harry Potter is acceptable for your nephew then you'll have zero grievances with anything in these books.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/04 00:48:47


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Drag on Society





Armpit of NY

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I mean, If I want to buy my nephew s this book, I should want to know it's good. Just cause you think kids should read garbage doesn't mean I do.


Just so you know, there are people out there, who, quite rightly, think the Harry Potter books are overrated juvenile garbage. That for some unfathomable reason, adults are obsessed with.
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





I mean, I'm just going to say it:

I think the target audience of this book is guys that are gonna try and force their hobby on their kids.

"See, honey? I'm not being a neglectful father at all! Little Jimmy loves 40k!"

[toddler gnaws on book corner]

Putting your political and ideological opinions in your signature isn't a clever way to get past the ban.

If you can't put that aside and discuss games with other people, you probably have an obsession and need professional help. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I mean, I'm just going to say it:

I think the target audience of this book is guys that are gonna try and force their hobby on their kids.

"See, honey? I'm not being a neglectful father at all! Little Jimmy loves 40k!"

[toddler gnaws on book corner]


That was my plan.


Really, I'm just curious to see where the book lands in the Independent Reader spectrum. Is it at the Bunnicula level, or closer to So You Want To Be A Wizard. (The second book, Deep Wizardry, traumatized my son. He handled LOTR and Call of Cthulhu without problem, and requested! the Silmarillion. Pretty sure Warhammer's not going to be too dark or too difficult.). As for reading WH to a child, I'd probably start with old WH favorites like Brunner or Gotrek and Felix, and Execution Hour or Gaunt's Ghosts for 40k.

   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
That was my plan.


I am just going to tell my kids that if they play 40k, and make bad grades- I'm stripping their models and chopping them up for conversion fodder.

Putting your political and ideological opinions in your signature isn't a clever way to get past the ban.

If you can't put that aside and discuss games with other people, you probably have an obsession and need professional help. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

"This C better become a B or your new Nagash is gonna become old Nagash."

   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Orem, Utah

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Really, I'm just curious to see where the book lands in the Independent Reader spectrum. Is it at the Bunnicula level, or closer to So You Want To Be A Wizard.


I'd say that they are on the high end for "Chapter Books" and the low end for "MIddle Grade." I think most 7 or 8 year olds can handle the reading level, More like Bunnicula.

They make poor read alouds because of the basic writing mistakes sometimes create a little confusion (having to reread sections) and mess with your ability to 'perform' a book the first time (in that way, it is very different from Bunnicula, where the voice is the best part of the book).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
alphaecho wrote:
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'm pretty sure you could deconstruct most 40K books in similar fashion as lots of them depend on crazy conincidences, implausible combat results, dubious decisions by the opposition etc

(not that I've read it to be able to say whether on not it works as a fun adventure novel)


The Guardian did a nice article about how Les Miserables should actually be titled Les Coincidences. It isn't just 40K apparently.



Careful there. Just because a great work has flaws that it overcomes doesn't mean that those flaws are merits. But let's talk about "coincidence."


- It is entirely possible to pull off "coincidence" in fiction. There are limits to what you can do, but th


The first way is for a coincidence to be the concept of your story. If you write a story about a character who has a one-in-a-million disease or wins the lottery, it isn't a coincidence, it is a concept.

One method is for coincidences to cause problems rather than solve them. Tragic coincidence isn't a problem (like in Othello, or in many Noir films). That's where most of the coincidences in Les Mis fall- and it isn't inappropriate

The second principle is to "hang a lantern on it." If the work acknowledges the coincidence, that changes the way it reads to the audience (for coincidences both good and bad). The way The Kite Runner handles coincidences. The snarky narrator in Candid is a good example of this. Hugo's writing does this a lot, and it helps to sell it.

You can set up the coincidences as part of your world building. This doesn't have to be literally magic- it is more about setting up reader expectations well. No on complains about the coincidences in The Man Who Knew Too Little or Anansi's Boys.

In most fiction, there's a principle of "The B Story Solves the A Story." If you bring the different plot threads together in a satisfying way, it is usually not considered a coincidence- as in King Lear or Star Wars (IV). While you still want to avoid anything that is overly convenient for our protagonists, the converging of story elements isn't a flaw (Han Solo's return is adequately foreshadowed, even though he just happens to get there at the right time).




Anyway, I only read the sample chapters, and I didn't feel like these were problems with the books.

I also don't feel like the tone is a problem. Sure, 40k invented the term "Grim Dark" but it didn't always embrace it. It has always existed in a strange compromise between He-Man and Heart of Darkness. That give you a whole lot of wiggle room, and some of the stories have always been on the lighter end of things.

And to be fair, in the sample chapter for Lifestone:
Spoiler:
the protagonists' mother dies on screen from disease and complications caused because she's an overworked slave.

Sure, it isn't ultra violent, but it isn't exactly presenting the settings as unicorns and rainbows either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 EnTyme wrote:
The number of "adults" who take these books way too seriously just astounds me.



Well, you can disrespect the genre, and that's fine. But people who read these types of books know that there are better and worse ones- and they have a lot of great options to choose from. There isn't a whole lot of reason to spend your time reading books that aren't very good.

With these, I suppose that your GW fandom can get you past the flaws so you can enjoy the books- and there's nothing wrong with that. We all enjoy stuff that isn't perfect, and it is up to you to pick your threshold. Personally, I have issue with how basic the flaws are.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/04 16:28:02


 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Seneca Nation of Indians

I can say that my 7 year old niece had some uncomfortable questions following the Space Marine CGI film.

Though there was much swinging of plastic mallets and We Shall Know No Fear!s also.


This sig was deemed too political for Dakka.
Meanwhile, Cato Sicarius is appearing on Alex Jones.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 BaronIveagh wrote:
I can say that my 7 year old niece had some uncomfortable questions following the Space Marine CGI film.

Though there was much swinging of plastic mallets and We Shall Know No Fear!s also.


Were those questions something along the lines of "Ow much?!", followed by a stark readjustment in the value of grass cutting and car washing labour?
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Seneca Nation of Indians

Tastyfish wrote:

Were those questions something along the lines of "Ow much?!", followed by a stark readjustment in the value of grass cutting and car washing labour?


No, more along the lines of explaining demonic possession and then the 'death' talk.


This sig was deemed too political for Dakka.
Meanwhile, Cato Sicarius is appearing on Alex Jones.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





To be fair it is rated 15/R.
So I wouldn’t be surprised by an uncomfortable talk with someone half the age
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
"This C better become a B or your new Nagash is gonna become old Nagash."


"If you don't clean that room, that Knight is going FULL TRAITOR."

"Do that again, and I'll make you pour all your Nuln Oil down the drain."

"If these grades don't improve, you're grounded from taking allied detachments!"

See, now that I think about it- getting your kids into 40k is brilliant. So much you can leverage...

Putting your political and ideological opinions in your signature isn't a clever way to get past the ban.

If you can't put that aside and discuss games with other people, you probably have an obsession and need professional help. 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Except these are meant more for 11-13 year olds, who by that time are already reading more complex books, like harry potter, long chapter books and so forth, not stuff like this


They are not. It's ages 8 to 12, to be pedantic. And I think the focus is more on the 8-10 segment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/09 09:33:05


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

You guys do know that age ranges on products are super casual, especially when it comes to products like books. Heck look at the other end at the "young adult" segment. It can run the whole gauntlet from being aimed at teenagers all the way through to mature adults and can run from being quite innocent to quite dark (mostly only missing out the most gratuitous references to sex)

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Philadelphia

My son, who is 9 years old, recently read Attack of the Necrons. I think he burned through it in about 2 days. He said that he enjoyed the book and would recommend it to his friends to read. He said it had the right amount of action and characters, without going into too much detail or gore (a plus for him), and he didn't report any inconsistencies or problems with the story or how the characters did what they did.

He said he it was simpler than Harry Potter, but more complex than other books that he has read (can't remember the names, he is a voracious reader).

So, from a 9 year old's perspective, it was a solid book. He didn't like the way it ended on a cliffhanger, and wonders how they make the transition from Necrons to Genestealers (e.g. will the story arc continue, or will it be a new story).

I have not purchased the Fantasy version for him, he prefers 40k.

And saying all of this, he has read all of the rulebooks/codexes, fluffbooks, white dwarves (old school WDs), and I have read him some of the short stories from BL 40k novels (appropriately edited and screened), so he is familiar with the background and writings.

His initial reaction when I told him of this thread was "Why are they discussing a kids book on Dakka? Its for kids." LoL

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"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns 
   
 
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