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That was a genuine concern.

kombatwombat wrote:

Martel732 wrote:It's made of marine units. It doesn't get much more friendly. Except GK units....

See now this sort of tripe does nothing but undermine those of us raising genuine concerns with the SM Codex. You’re not helping here, you’re making it harder. If you can’t be constructive then don’t contribute.

I guess you're starting to see why SM players on here have a bit of rep amongst us who have been here for years.

 SHUPPET wrote:

I guess you're starting to see why SM players on here have a bit of rep amongst us who have been here for years.

We’ve argued about this before and my stance hasn’t changed; I don’t believe they have that reputation and you’re the only one I’ve seen saying they do.

I am starting to believe that reading posts from one or two toxic people has poisoned you though, so that’s all you can see. I suppose I’m gaining some sympathy for your position, but I maintain that the reputation SM players have to you isn’t shared by the broader community on this site.

Clearly, I'm the worst person ever. Better here than IRL, however.

Also, BA != SM in terms of army function.

kombatwombat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

I guess you're starting to see why SM players on here have a bit of rep amongst us who have been here for years.

We’ve argued about this before and my stance hasn’t changed; I don’t believe they have that reputation and you’re the only one I’ve seen saying they do.

Literally in that same thread you said that to me, there was multiple people saying the same thing, who I can and will quote if i need to = it's not just me. I was simply the one who argued the point with them.

kombatwombat wrote:

I am starting to believe that reading posts from one or two toxic people has poisoned you though, so that’s all you can see.

It's not, there's obviously a few vocal people that you're referring to, but Martel and Xenomancer's opinions in SM are pretty commonly supported and agreed with on here by many SM players. For what it's worth I don't think either of them are "toxic" either, they just have... narrow minded perspectives sometimes.

kombatwombat wrote:
I suppose I’m gaining some sympathy for your position, but I maintain that the reputation SM players have to you isn’t shared by the broader community on this site.

Well, I'll check in with you again at a later date then. I never said it was a reputation isn't one they have amongst the broader community - nobody can claim that for anything, as most people don't even pay attention to that. It's simply one they have amongst people who do. We'll see if you feel the same way if you're still on here when SM gets their next Gladius, and the majority of the players are trying to convince you how it's not really that strong, you aren't playing against it properly, etc.

 Marmatag wrote:
As i said before in my post - by the way, if you're not reading my posts i can dip out - is that this is a beta rule, and it is not a formal rule. You do not have to play the beta rule if you do not want to, just be up front about it before the game. If you're playing ITC rules then it's too bad so sad, they use it

Yeah technically you don't "have" to use it. Too bad you are likely running short of opponents that way. Could end up playing solitaire with 40k. If everybody at the store is using it but you which one is going to have it harder to force other? They? They simply play against another player. You? You don't have another opponent to play with so it's not like "don't use that rule or I won't play vs you" as you are the one out of game then. They won't.

Actually won a game today 0_0 Played vs a space marine with a full primaris army. 2 gravis captins, 4x5 bolter dudes, 9 flying dudes and 3 predators. Walked stright at him, lost the ndk and termintors, paladins were saved by the sacrifice of my rhino and the strikes raced for his objective. 13-7 with him being wiped out at the end of turn 6, and me having 3 paladins left alive.

I was thinking about spliting the 10 termintors in too two separate units, so people have to split fire and not just put everything in to my 10 dudes.
Also I think, I know what you guys mean by +5inv not being that great.

Karol wrote:
Actually won a game today 0_0 Played vs a space marine with a full primaris army. 2 gravis captins, 4x5 bolter dudes, 9 flying dudes and 3 predators. Walked stright at him, lost the ndk and termintors, paladins were saved by the sacrifice of my rhino and the strikes raced for his objective. 13-7 with him being wiped out at the end of turn 6, and me having 3 paladins left alive.

I was thinking about spliting the 10 termintors in too two separate units, so people have to split fire and not just put everything in to my 10 dudes.
Also I think, I know what you guys mean by +5inv not being that great.

Unless you have some strategem etc that buffs big squad small units are generally always better. Tougher, more flexible. Only real drawback short of strategems is when you charge with both he can intercept before 2nd gets to attack.

Karol wrote:
Actually won a game today 0_0 Played vs a space marine with a full primaris army. 2 gravis captins, 4x5 bolter dudes, 9 flying dudes and 3 predators. Walked stright at him, lost the ndk and termintors, paladins were saved by the sacrifice of my rhino and the strikes raced for his objective. 13-7 with him being wiped out at the end of turn 6, and me having 3 paladins left alive.

I was thinking about spliting the 10 termintors in too two separate units, so people have to split fire and not just put everything in to my 10 dudes.
Also I think, I know what you guys mean by +5inv not being that great.

Congrats man! Sounds like you are starting to get a feel for some of the units you have at your command, and are leveraging their strengths a bit more.

As for the 10 man vs 5 man argument, its as follows. In terms of firepower, 10 man is universally better than 5 man. They are a more efficient vector for buffs, either via psychic powers or stratagems, and because you are free to split fire you don't lose out on the ability to target multiple enemies. If you split the squad up you will notice a big decrease in the effectiveness of your unit enhancing buffs. The advantages of splitting them up are 1) it forces your enemy to split fire and 2) it takes up more slots. For example, sometimes having additional slots in your army list is crucially important for qualifying for a Battalion. If you need to run 5 Strikes + 5 Termies +5 Termies to get a battalion on the field, so be it.

With respect to deep striking on turn one, you can still deep strike into your own deployment zone. So if you are playing against a really aggressive assault army that is in your face right from the word go, you can still drop in and cleanse your deployment zone.

The other thing you can do is look back at the games and figure out what units have been performing for you. From what you've observed it sounds like you are having the most luck with your Paladins than anything else- as they are always the ones fighting to the bitter end. If you think you can function with fewer Command Points maybe try running a Vanguard Detachment with multiple Paladin Squads.

Most people get 'bits' and alternate weapons from the plastic sprues that they bought their army from. Your Grey Knights are really old. For reference, seven years ago (really doesn't feel like it was *that* long ago ) Games Workshop did a big Grey Knights + Inquisition release where they redid most of the Grey Knight line in plastic and released several new kits, including the Dread Knight. These kits were plastic and all had a ton of options for building your squads however you wanted. Because Grey Knights were really unpopular prior to the big 5th edition release, most players who own Grey Knights started with these plastic boxes. Metal Grey Knights are really rare! In that vein, I know people have been telling you not to buy more stuff, BUT, I would probably get a Strike Squad box if I were you. It would give you another 5 man Strike squad to fill out your troops selection cheap (for GK!), and its absolutely loaded with force weapons would let you adjust your melee load outs a lot easier. What I mean by this is your Strike Squads really really want Nemesis Falcions because they only have one attack base, which means getting an extra attack from the Falcions is a huge increase in performance for them. On the other hand, Paladins have 3 attacks base, and as such benefit more from Halbreds and Hammers than they would from Falcions.

Buying a strike squad box would let you run a battalion with Terminators + 2x5 Strikes which might help loosen up your points enough to let you field more paladins.

One more pro of smaller squads with GK: it gives you a free mortal wound a turn via mini-smite

If you bring a 10 man squad people will focus it. But knowing that kind of works in your favor. Don't forget that you have Sanctuary and the +1 invuln stratagem. Drop them in the gak and buff them up. Terminators aren't great but in a small game, they do require a response. Also you can combat squad them for 1CP during the game if you want to.

Congratulations on your win!

10man GK Squads can Combat Squad, so it’s a bit more flexible than people are implying.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
10man GK Squads can Combat Squad, so it’s a bit more flexible than people are implying.

SJ

If I have the slots I always take 10 man squads in my list and make a game time decision.

For terminators you should always bring 10 mans. Basically the only reason to take them is to buff them. Too bad we can't actually buff them to a useful level.

 Xenomancers wrote:
For terminators you should always bring 10 mans. Basically the only reason to take them is to buff them. Too bad we can't actually buff them to a useful level.

In casual games, you can make them 3++ every turn. On a small board, 4x4, this is actually not awful. The problem though is that Custodes do it better & cheaper - just bring Custodes and put a stormshield on 2 guys, and you've got the same net effect but higher quality and with better stratagems, and access to bikes.

thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.

Karol wrote:
thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.

After lurking on here for years, I had to make an account just to respond to this.

What? Are you serious? That is the dumbest house rule I have ever heard. Your victory is that much more impressive if you've been having to play without psychic powers, and helps to explain some of your struggles.

Karol wrote:
thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.

More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.

 LunarSol wrote:

Karol wrote:
thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.

More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.

So if a game is poorly designed and some people create strong lists...that the player's fault? I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.

 LunarSol wrote:

Karol wrote:
thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.

More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.

Players might be the ones to take unbalanced armies but it's GW's job to ensure there aren't any. Literally their job.

 LunarSol wrote:

Karol wrote:
thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.

More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.

QFT!

No psychic stuff if the other player doesn't have psychic stuff is... That's going beyond a house/store rule, that's not playing 40k. I have a feeling that nobody at that store brings out their Eldar or TSons for just that reason alone.

Not allowed to use a major part of certain factions, like Eldar, GKs, TSons and Death Guard vs strong codexes like Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar (correct me if im wrong) is just downright absurd, and furthers the gap between them, and GKs.

Sounds like the store owner's friend or son or themself had a bad match against some Eldar and doesn't want them around...

But more on topic, without outside intervention, Grey Knights are in an unfortunate spot. Razorback AssCans, Flyers and GMDK's are your best bet for ramping up the strength of your army. And a big factor is knowing your own army through experience, and playing against a variety of armies to know what you can expect.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Karol wrote:
thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.

More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.

So if a game is poorly designed and some people create strong lists...that the player's fault? I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.

In my experience there are a significant number of people playing a game with citadel models that they call 40k, but isn't quite 40k. It's hard to really gauge the real volume of competitive variety a game has to offer when everyone is playing the game by their own rules. Some of this is definitely GW's fault for not taking the reigns a little tighter, but of all the game systems I play, 40k is the only one in which I'm not floored in shock to hear that a community plays without an entire phase of the game.

If your GK can’t use psychic powers, then your opponents shouldn’t be using Chapter Tactics, Sept bonuses, or any other similar abilities. GKs are Psykers, you pay for it, and not being able to use it is criminally unjust.

SJ

 LunarSol wrote:

Karol wrote:
thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.

More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.

Not my rule and not my idea to enforce it. I have no idea if there are any balance issues with psychic powers, assuming there are, also the limit is just to psychic powers, magic spells or rune casting is allowed.



Speaking about eldar. I played against them today. Lost hard, he had 3 flyers, some were at -2 to hit, his ground units were sniper scout guardians, and a wright lord. I tried doing the teleport trick in turn two, but he killed my ground stuff before we got to turn 2. My main problem was that everything he had had so many wounds, the tanks had like 8-10 each, the flyers too, and everything was harder to hit with shoting and too fast to reach in melee. I lost without scoring any points, but I must say I focused a bit too much on trying to kill any of his units. In the end most of his tanks were left alive with 3-4 wounds at worse, the flyers were untouched and I had 0 models at the end of turn 4.

Since that is a store rule you should ask for a point handicap. As others have said you are denied your chapter tactic bonus and almost everyone agrees that you are paying points for models that have psychic abilities that the store is preventing you from using. I would say that it wouldn't be unfair for you to ask your opponent to play down 10-15% of your agreed upon level or ask that they allow you to use your psykers as they are supposed to be used. If your opponent is OK with you using the abilities then the store really shouldn't say anything.

Karol wrote:

Speaking about eldar. I played against them today. Lost hard, he had 3 flyers, some were at -2 to hit, his ground units were sniper scout guardians, and a wright lord. I tried doing the teleport trick in turn two, but he killed my ground stuff before we got to turn 2. My main problem was that everything he had had so many wounds, the tanks had like 8-10 each, the flyers too, and everything was harder to hit with shoting and too fast to reach in melee. I lost without scoring any points, but I must say I focused a bit too much on trying to kill any of his units. In the end most of his tanks were left alive with 3-4 wounds at worse, the flyers were untouched and I had 0 models at the end of turn 4.

It seems like so far, you've run against Space Marines, who are mid tier (lets not get on to the specifics) for the average list. And now that you've faced off an Alaitoc Eldar list, you've ran in to a higher tier army and list. Everything is hard to hit, everything is fast and shooty, and Eldar tanks are rather points efficient. It's a very rough army for Grey Knights to go against in all honesty.

Did you play using Psychic powers this game? Most, if not all Eldar armies possess Psykers for buffs and debuffs. A problem with Grey Knights is that they're not the best of psykers, and may just get overpowered by DtW from Eldar or other Psyker heavy armies. If you did use psychic powers this game (such a stupid "rule") did you feel like they may have helped more in your other games?

Time to find a new store. That is fething absurd. One of the dumbest rules i've ever seen. Holy gak.

 Marmatag wrote:
Time to find a new store. That is fething absurd. One of the dumbest rules i've ever seen. Holy gak.

...They're playing a tutorial escalation league set up to introduce new mechanics slowly rather than dumping everything in from day one.

The OP also said this was the only store that he can get to. So he has to play be the store's rules. That's why I suggested he just ask his opponent to use psychic rules.