Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Our Codex has been released!

Let's begin with tactical discussion, now that we're fully established.

What information do you expect from the coming FAQ?

Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of FW Knights?

Which house do you prefer?

Point Values?

Carrying over from our previous index thread.

Below I'm including weapon math/stats.

Thoughts on what to add to a Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet?

Leaning towards House Mortan for them.

My local meta has shifted to 1750.

Until the FW FAQ happens and I can use a Lancer, i'm wanting to use Taranis with 2x Crusader and a Gallant, but I'm struggling to fit that in with an adequate amount of allies for enough CP to keep a Knight alive constantly.

Any ideas?

Is there a reason other than non-paragon fists that people are advocating Mortan over Krast? Re-rolling hits gives you 5% more hits with WS3+, 9% more on WS4+, and 16% more with WS2+. You lose 9% vs a +1 when you’re WS2+ with a -1. For most knights then it seems that Krast (re-roll failed hits) is slightly better than Mortan (+1 to hit).

Isn't Krast only when you charge, though?

Whereas Mortan is charging, being charged, or Heroic Intervention?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Isn't Krast only when you charge, though?

Whereas Mortan is charging, being charged, or Heroic Intervention?

Nope, Krast is also charged, was charged, or performed a heroic intervention. It additionally always gives a re-roll against titanics.

I think it’s really difficult to pick which house is best, which is great. There are houses that have stand-out traits but others that have great warlord traits, stratagems or relics.

For example Raven looks amazing on a Valiant with landstrider. It can now attack at full effect on turn 1, probably managing to get all of its guns into range. And they also have a great stratagem. I’d be amused to see what would happen if someone took 3 house raven Valiants at 1750 - they come to 1749 points for 3 if you take 4 missiles each.

If anything the stratagems make more difference than any other factor when choosing a house. I guess the house Raven trait does stand out because it lets you do something that you couldn’t otherwise - advance and fire - though actually that’s not a huge issue for most knights. They are fairly quick and have long-ranged guns anyway. But otherwise there are a lot of versions of “be a little bit better in close combat”.

On the other hand the stratagems allow knights from different houses to do radically different things. A house Terryn knight fighting a second time is kind of incredible, for example. The hawkshroud strat to let a knight fire overwatch when a friend gets charged could be huge, especially if it lets you fire traitor’s pyre at people more often. The raven one is a huge increase in damage output for a castellan or crusader, and the Taranis one where a dead knight gets back up again could obviously change games - especially if there’s a CP left to have it fight at full effect in the following turn.

The house-specific relics on the other hand don’t seem all that interesting at all. The stand-out one for me is Angel’s Grace for hawkshroud. This could be a good option if you came up against a smite spam enemy, halving the damage they’d send at you. But even then you could probably manage easily without it. The generic stuff like Cawl’s Wrath and the Paragon Gauntlet seem much more interesting to me.

The 1750 point list I’m looking at running is:

House Taranis Lance.

Castellan with Ion Bulwark and Cawl’s wrath. 4 missiles and 1 turret to save points.

Warden with reaper and ironstorm pod.

Errant with fist

2 Armiger Warglaives with stubbers.

In any given game I’ll generally give either the paragon gauntlet (or maybe the 2+ save) to the Errant or endless fury to the warden. The other will get cunning commander for 0CP. That way all three of the knights will be characters, which could come in handy for the odd heroic intervention.

So I’ll begin most games with 5 CPs, or 6 if it really doesn’t matter to have the second relic. That isn’t loads but I think it should be enough to do some stuff.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Thoughts on what to add to a Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet?

Leaning towards House Mortan for them.

Other than a Stormspear if you can afford it? I'd go Raven if you're rocking the Paragon Gauntlet so you get that extra mobility and can still shoot, then charge turn 2. If you're open to other relics, I'd give the Headman's Mark a look. It's Krast only so no matter what melee weapon you take you're going to be effective with rerolls (I like the thunderstrike gauntlet myself) but with that relic it'll give you +1 damage to all your weapons if you're attacking models with 10+ wounds or +2 damage if it's against Titanic units so it's almost like you have a Paragon Gauntlet anyway. In addition you get to fire a 3 damage Avenger Gatling Cannon at vehicles which is pretty great, especially against T6 things like Aeldari and Necron vehicles with Quantum Shielding. No idea how effective it will be on the table vs taking a Raven Warden with a Paragon Gauntlet instead but it's at least an interesting idea on paper.

Krast relic seems pretty damn strong to me.

So this is what im currently planning on trying.
The castellan will get cawls wrath and either cunning commander or ion bulwark
The crusader will get endless fury and blessed by the sacristans.


What do we all think if this?

 Crimson wrote:
Krast relic seems pretty damn strong to me.

Yes, that’s true. It’s probably the only thing that competes with Cawl’s wrath for a castellan, especially paired with the first knight warlord trait. It’s the only household where I’d seriously consider running two castellans, using those two relics.

Krast seems to me like the best of the “a bit better in cc” ones. Rerolling all missed is strong, especially for stuff like death grip. If I didn’t already have four knights in Taranis colours I’d give Krast really serious consideration.

Ditch the shrine, it is completely useless.

Probably a stupid question- How do you get the most out of House Raven's ability? It seems to me that you want to advance with you knight but then you have to spend 2 CP to allow it to charge. Am I missing something?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Probably a stupid question- How do you get the most out of House Raven's ability? It seems to me that you want to advance with you knight but then you have to spend 2 CP to allow it to charge. Am I missing something?

The most obvious use for me is to deploy safely in the back preventing from opponent's turn 1 shooting/smiting barrage, and rushing forward your turn to have a range for weapons anyway. Won't be as efficient in DoW deployment, but most of deployment scenarios would benefit. Or, you can simply be present anywhere on the table, whenever knight is needed. And you can charge for 2CP as you've noticed, so you're not wasting a turn's potential either in shooting, or in charging.

The thing I'm torn over now, what would you choose for an Admech super-heavy support? A Krast Warden + 2 Warglaives, or Raven Crusader + 2 Warglaives? Yes, I want Warglaives in both cases

I think a big thing bonus for Raven is against smite spam. Let's you position to choose what they zap while maintaining firepower, then use Benevolance to just lol away all those MW on a single 5+.

If you're set on taking Warglaives, a Raven Preceptor with the Helm Dominatus might not be a bad idea to get the most out of them. Gives them +1 to their hit rolls every turn against any enemy unit within 24" and the Preceptor let's them reroll 1's to hit while they're close by. Landstrider as the WL trait will let them get into the action that much quicker as well.

StarHunter25 wrote:
I think a big thing bonus for Raven is against smite spam. Let's you position to choose what they zap while maintaining firepower, then use Benevolance to just lol away all those MW on a single 5+.

On the other hand Krast let's you efficiently beat a hell out of Magnus or Mortarion in CC (they've got the Titanic keyword if I'm not mistaken), which makes me smile just like that
But I get your point, I'm leaning toward Raven myself.

If you're set on taking Warglaives, a Raven Preceptor with the Helm Dominatus might not be a bad idea to get the most out of them. Gives them +1 to their hit rolls every turn against any enemy unit within 24" and the Preceptor let's them reroll 1's to hit while they're close by.

That makes Alaitoc less annoying... I guess I'm sold to the idea now. [EDIT Or not, it's only once per battle and on a specific unit; I'd rather run house Mortan in that case]. The bummer Preceptor has this weird short ranged laser, I'd rather run Avenger, or RFBC. Or both.

For those who saw my Raven/Scion list in the other thread and said the Plasma was redundant, due to Knights having answers. Well, if I run into too many targets for my Knights to address, all that plasma helps. Though I may bump the 5 man squad to a cheap option and maybe find wiggle room for some more dudes or maybe a Taurox option.

dadamowsky wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
I think a big thing bonus for Raven is against smite spam. Let's you position to choose what they zap while maintaining firepower, then use Benevolance to just lol away all those MW on a single 5+.

On the other hand Krast let's you efficiently beat a hell out of Magnus or Mortarion in CC (they've got the Titanic keyword if I'm not mistaken), which makes me smile just like that
But I get your point, I'm leaning toward Raven myself.

If you're set on taking Warglaives, a Raven Preceptor with the Helm Dominatus might not be a bad idea to get the most out of them. Gives them +1 to their hit rolls every turn against any enemy unit within 24" and the Preceptor let's them reroll 1's to hit while they're close by.

That makes Alaitoc less annoying... I guess I'm sold to the idea now. [EDIT Or not, it's only once per battle and on a specific unit; I'd rather run house Mortan in that case]. The bummer Preceptor has this weird short ranged laser, I'd rather run Avenger, or RFBC. Or both.

Nope, the Helm Dominatus is once per battle round so you're using it every turn. The las-impulsor does seem like a poor man's AGC/TC but it's better than nothing and can pull double duty as anti infantry/vehicle if need be which makes it versatile at least.

What do y'all knight players think of the Knight Styrix? As a Mechanicus player I have been building one with this as a goal:

Knight Styrix
reaper chainsword - relic: reroll 1s to hit, strength 16
volkite chierovile: 45" heavy 5 strength 8 AP -3 damage d6, wound roll of 6 generates additional hit on target
house Mortan: no household bonus because Auxiliary detachment
house Mortan warlord trait: -1 to be hit from 18" or further away
house Mortan stratagem: 1cp ignore all negative shooting modifiers, for enemy -2 to hit Alaitoc flyers
other special defensive properties: 4++ vs shooting 5++ vs melee from Knight Styrix special ability
other special defensive properties: regenerate 1 wound per turn on a 6 from Knight Styrix special ability
other special offensive properties: ignore cover (except va vehicles) from Knight Styrix special ability

475 points, 2 command points

What to pair up with a Porphyrion?

@2k

@3k

Any thoughts? I’m collecting knights and Admech at the moment

dadamowsky wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
I think a big thing bonus for Raven is against smite spam. Let's you position to choose what they zap while maintaining firepower, then use Benevolance to just lol away all those MW on a single 5+.

On the other hand Krast let's you efficiently beat a hell out of Magnus or Mortarion in CC (they've got the Titanic keyword if I'm not mistaken), which makes me smile just like that
But I get your point, I'm leaning toward Raven myself.

If you're set on taking Warglaives, a Raven Preceptor with the Helm Dominatus might not be a bad idea to get the most out of them. Gives them +1 to their hit rolls every turn against any enemy unit within 24" and the Preceptor let's them reroll 1's to hit while they're close by.

That makes Alaitoc less annoying... I guess I'm sold to the idea now. [EDIT Or not, it's only once per battle and on a specific unit; I'd rather run house Mortan in that case]. The bummer Preceptor has this weird short ranged laser, I'd rather run Avenger, or RFBC. Or both.

They do NOT have the Titanic keyword last I checked.

 Crimson wrote:
Ditch the shrine, it is completely useless.

Its filling points as i literally have zero imperial units out side of:
Shrine
Castellan
Valiant
2x questoris magnatized for all options
2x helverin
4x warglaive

Inevitableq wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Ditch the shrine, it is completely useless.

Its filling points as i literally have zero imperial units out side of:
Shrine
Castellan
Valiant
2x questoris magnatized for all options
2x helverin
4x warglaive

Carapace weapons are better than the shrine.
Might take some Ebay hunting but shouldn't be too expensive with some searching as your not after the guantlet or avenger like most people.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Is there a reason other than non-paragon fists that people are advocating Mortan over Krast? Re-rolling hits gives you 5% more hits with WS3+, 9% more on WS4+, and 16% more with WS2+. You lose 9% vs a +1 when you’re WS2+ with a -1. For most knights then it seems that Krast (re-roll failed hits) is slightly better than Mortan (+1 to hit).

So, the reason i'm going Mortan over Krast is because of the following -

A Crusader with -1 to hit over 18", with the ability to ignore all penalties when firing it's weapons.
A Valiant with the relic flamer (Imperial Knights only)
Gallant charging 1st turn, then being able to death grip on a 2+ whilst having something like the 2+ save relic. (this admittedly can be any household, but Mortan helps if an opportunity to use Death Grip appears)
I also want to take the banner relic, which is also Imperial only. I think it is a really under-rated relic.

Krast's relic doesn't really do much for me. +1 dmg vs tanks and certain dreadnoughts, and big daemons/daemon primarchs, +2 vs titanic. It might turn out to be super clutch if Knights start to swamp the meta, but, it feels completely situational. Likewise, the stratagem is only going to really give you 2-3 more hits "on average" and can't be used alongside death grip etc. To me, there are just more important stratagems in the book, and often not enough cp to go around.

Personally, i think the best use of Krast's warlord trait and relic, is on a Crusader - but, how often are you going to be firing the Gatling cannon at T7+ 10 Wound+ models? And would you choose the Krask relic over the Gatling relic?

Kdash wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Is there a reason other than non-paragon fists that people are advocating Mortan over Krast? Re-rolling hits gives you 5% more hits with WS3+, 9% more on WS4+, and 16% more with WS2+. You lose 9% vs a +1 when you’re WS2+ with a -1. For most knights then it seems that Krast (re-roll failed hits) is slightly better than Mortan (+1 to hit).

So, the reason i'm going Mortan over Krast is because of the following -

A Crusader with -1 to hit over 18", with the ability to ignore all penalties when firing it's weapons.
A Valiant with the relic flamer (Imperial Knights only)
Gallant charging 1st turn, then being able to death grip on a 2+ whilst having something like the 2+ save relic. (this admittedly can be any household, but Mortan helps if an opportunity to use Death Grip appears)
I also want to take the banner relic, which is also Imperial only. I think it is a really under-rated relic.

Krast's relic doesn't really do much for me. +1 dmg vs tanks and certain dreadnoughts, and big daemons/daemon primarchs, +2 vs titanic. It might turn out to be super clutch if Knights start to swamp the meta, but, it feels completely situational. Likewise, the stratagem is only going to really give you 2-3 more hits "on average" and can't be used alongside death grip etc. To me, there are just more important stratagems in the book, and often not enough cp to go around.

Personally, i think the best use of Krast's warlord trait and relic, is on a Crusader - but, how often are you going to be firing the Gatling cannon at T7+ 10 Wound+ models? And would you choose the Krask relic over the Gatling relic?

The trick with the Krast relic might be that you don't have to take it. Pick an army with some other relic. Maybe a Castellan with First Knight and Cawl's Wrath, for example.

Then take a Crusader with a RFBC. It's a good unit in its own right. If you come against someone with the right kind of targets, give it the relic with a stratagem and watch it obliterate stuff.

Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of Forgeworld.[/b]

What exactly is stopping us from using forgeworld? Besides a few stratagems and relics, I didn't see any specific restrictions.

The Knight lancer as House Terryn with the Warlord trait of Knight senschal and Helm of the nameless warrior looks pretty nice.

 kinratha wrote:

Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of Forgeworld.[/b]

What exactly is stopping us from using forgeworld? Besides a few stratagems and relics, I didn't see any specific restrictions.

The Knight lancer as House Terryn with the Warlord trait of Knight senschal and Helm of the nameless warrior looks pretty nice.

Until FAQ'd, none of the FW knights have the Imperial Knights keyword, and if taken in a detachment with Codex knights they all lose the Knight Lance and Household Traditions special rules (as they require every unit to have the Imperial Knight keyword).

Unless I'm mistaken, RAW this means that if you took a FW knight and Questor Imperialis Armigers you could get the +3CP from a normal Super Heavy Detachment (but not the Household Traditions and no models would be a character).

the_Grak wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of Forgeworld.[/b]

What exactly is stopping us from using forgeworld? Besides a few stratagems and relics, I didn't see any specific restrictions.

The Knight lancer as House Terryn with the Warlord trait of Knight senschal and Helm of the nameless warrior looks pretty nice.

Until FAQ'd, none of the FW knights have the Imperial Knights keyword, and if taken in a detachment with Codex knights they all lose the Knight Lance and Household Traditions special rules (as they require every unit to have the Imperial Knight keyword).

Unless I'm mistaken, RAW this means that if you took a FW knight and Questor Imperialis Armigers you could get the +3CP from a normal Super Heavy Detachment (but not the Household Traditions and no models would be a character).

Right, but it's reasonable to assume this will be FAQd shortly to something rational. I don't think we should have to wait for that to happen before discussing whether we think FW knights are any good.

Let's assume that RAI is for FW knights to count for lances, to have the right keywords and so on. Would you take them?

If the Styrix gets a point drop then I'd be tempted. A build with House Taranis, Landstrider, and a 2+ armor save seems pretty damn resilient. 2+/4++(5++ against melee)/6+FNP/ and heal 1 wound every turn on a 5+ before stratagems. Landstrider gets him into the thick of it to make the most of his durability.