Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just got the codex, and there are tons of references to Armiger's giving command points all over the place. That will be FAQed VERY SOON I'd wager.

With that in mind, here is the list I'm thinking:
Super Heavy Detachment (knight lance): House Taranis
Knight Castellan (Warlord: 4++) (Cawl's Wrath) (Free Character)
Knight Preceptor w/ Gauntlet & Melta
Knight Warden w/ Ironstorm
Super Heavy Detachment: House Taranis
3xArmiger Warglaves with meltas

1999 pnts. I may spend 1 cp to give the preceptor either the paragon gauntlet or the helm dominatus (depending on match-up) and I may spend an extra cp to give him landstrider (will spend 1 on Cunning Commander to get that for free otherwise).

Otherwise it'll be the following (might be a better list in general actually...):
Super Heavy Detachment (knight lance): House Taranis
Knight Castellan (Warlord: 4++) (Cawl's Wrath) (Free Character)
Knight Gallant
Knight Warden
Super Heavy Detachment Aux: House Mortan (For anti-flyer/eldar strategem)
Knight Paladin
Mechanicus Battalion: Graia
Enginseer x 2
Rangers x 3
1991 points... so an extra ranger maybe?

You may want to rethink your second list. Your aux detachment can not have a house.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You may want to rethink your second list. Your aux detachment can not have a house.

It can have a house KEYWORD, just not the house traits. So it can still use strategems and use the relic or warlord traits.

True. It just seems like everyone equates keyword to trait right now with the aux detachment. No offense meant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

urzaplanewalker wrote:
I just got the codex, and there are tons of references to Armiger's giving command points all over the place. That will be FAQed VERY SOON I'd wager.

I just breezed through the codex and didn't see anything. Can you point me to some instances please?

I just breezed through the codex and didn't see anything. Can you point me to some instances please?

Pages 87-89 show two example Lance Detachment lists, both with Armigers, and both giving out 3CP.

Yeah, I expect a FAQ will fix the Detachment ruling.

The 2 pages before the rules start basically. They talk about army creation.

Also ya. The trait I don't really care about. I care about hitting -3 to hit units for 1 cp.

So I know it’s more of an imperial guard army with a knight ally, but I wanted to mention it here, as I came at this list with the approach of starting with a Castellan in my army and seeing what I could do to support it.

My main consideration was that there are so many good stratagems and not enough CP in the world. Even at 8 CP with a guard battalion, I found that I’d want to spend too much CP pre-game, giving multiple knights a relic and most likely a warlord trait too, which would be 6 CP spent before the word go. Let alone the stratagems I wanted to use (notably rotate ion shields being so expensive on a dominus chassis), so I gravitated towards two batallions, but didn’t really like having a Freeblade Valiant (limited by 3 sources and the need for the relic flamer), and/or putting a cc knight in house Raven (which I believe is necessary for the Castellan).

So thus enters the guard brigade. A min brigade isn’t too expensive, but I wanted to use the brigade to address the horde weakness inherent in the knights codex, so enter fast attack hellhounds. Of course mortars help, but I like the idea of basilisks putting some extra wounds out at range. The only question was did I want to have a second knight or a BA battalion for Mephiston and a Slamguinius, plus some forward Scouts? I went with the latter, but I could be convinced otherwise. There are even enough points for a Castellan, 2 Shooty armigers, a Warden, plus a small guard brigade if you want to go more knight heavy.

What I’m going to playtest first is:

Raven Castellan

Mephiston
Slamguinius
3 x 5 Scouts

3 x Company Commander
3 x Platoon Commander
4 x 8 infantry + 1 mortar
2 x 10 infantry
3 x hellhounds
3 x Earthshaker batteries

That’s a casual 20 CP with 2 5+ CP regen relics and the grand strategist warlord trait for even more CP.

So, bringing up the discussion again, is it better to have that 180 point IG batallion which is just there to generate 5 more CP, or to have one more say Amiger instead of that batallion?

I guess my question: Is that IG batallion and 5 more CP more useful than one single Amiger?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, bringing up the discussion again, is it better to have that 180 point IG batallion which is just there to generate 5 more CP, or to have one more say Amiger instead of that batallion?

I guess my question: Is that IG batallion and 5 more CP more useful than one single Amiger?

Look at that IG battalion like this. You’re spending those points on 38 wounds split up among 5 units (who’s only purpose is to die), and significantly boosted firepower/survival/whatever thanks to the CP. The extra CP will enable you to rock 3 relics and warlord traits, and still have 5-6 CP left over for death grips, ion shield rotations, boosted explosions, and whatever else that wouldn’t be happening in a pure list. I don’t really wanna do it, personally, since I like the idea of a pure Knight army, but the benefits are just too great to ignore.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, bringing up the discussion again, is it better to have that 180 point IG batallion which is just there to generate 5 more CP, or to have one more say Amiger instead of that batallion?

I guess my question: Is that IG batallion and 5 more CP more useful than one single Amiger?

Do you play ITC or something else?

Because then you need to weigh whether giving up the points guardsmen give the opponent is worth the 5cp it provides. Which is no light thing. Those games are decided on the first few turns. 30 guardsmen and 2 officers may sometimes be easier (or the only) points your opponent can take in those turns, whereas a pure knight list may not have as much CP, but give up less points for victory conditions.

I mean 5cp (and Regen potentially) is great, but if you don't have a plan for those CP then it may not be as good of an idea.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, bringing up the discussion again, is it better to have that 180 point IG batallion which is just there to generate 5 more CP, or to have one more say Amiger instead of that batallion?

I guess my question: Is that IG batallion and 5 more CP more useful than one single Amiger?

Do you play ITC or something else?

Because then you need to weigh whether giving up the points guardsmen give the opponent is worth the 5cp it provides. Which is no light thing. Those games are decided on the first few turns. 30 guardsmen and 2 officers may sometimes be easier (or the only) points your opponent can take in those turns, whereas a pure knight list may not have as much CP, but give up less points for victory conditions.

I mean 5cp (and Regen potentially) is great, but if you don't have a plan for those CP then it may not be as good of an idea.

That why it realy should be 195 points of guard as it get you 3 9 model units instead which also improves the utility of your CP battery.

If im considering
Crusader
Warden
2 helvarin

Do we think adding 1 gallant or 2 warglaives would be better

U02dah4 wrote:
If im considering
Crusader
Warden
2 helvarin

Do we think adding 1 gallant or 2 warglaives would be better

Completely depends on your overall plan.

The Gallant will give you +3 CP, whereas the Warglaives will give you additional ranged firepower. If you are ok with starting with only 3 CP, then give the Warglaives a go.

If you want additional relics, or the odd stratagem, then, you’ll need the +3 CP from the Gallant.

Invul wrote:

I just breezed through the codex and didn't see anything. Can you point me to some instances please?

Pages 87-89 show two example Lance Detachment lists, both with Armigers, and both giving out 3CP.

Yeah, I expect a FAQ will fix the Detachment ruling.

I would like to see that errata reduce the number of big knights from 3 to 2, the rule is clearly there to prevent knights players from taking 3 1-model armiger units as a CP generator. Sure, rule of 3 means you could only take 2 such detachments, but that will still net 12 CPs for a minimum of 2115 points(3 gallants)

Having 6 total choices(like on pages 88-89) with 1 or 2 of them as armigers shouldn't be hamstrung with 1 of the superheavy detachments incapable of meeting the 3-bigguns requirement.

Invul wrote:
Pages 87-89 show two example Lance Detachment lists, both with Armigers, and both giving out 3CP.

Yeah, I expect a FAQ will fix the Detachment ruling.

The first army (the red one) is correct per the no CPs for armigers rule. The detachment has 3 big knights and as such gets 3 CP then since it's battle forged it gains another 3 points for 6 total points. The second army (the blue one) is calculated incorrectly since it is being given credit for a second detachment consisting of only 1 big knight and 2 armigers but yeilding a total of 9CPs (it should be 6 based on the current rules).

So it seems that somewhere the rule was changed but not everyone got the memo. Whether the change was to allow armigers to give CPs or not there is a definite disconnect within the Codex. Hopefully the FAQ will be coming out soon and address which is the correct way to calculate CP.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

The first army (the red one) is correct per the no CPs for armigers rule. The detachment has 3 big knights and as such gets 3 CP then since it's battle forged it gains another 3 points for 6 total points.

No, the red example only has two big boys, and makes sure to point out it has “one of every class of Knight- Armiger, Questoris, Dominus.” And it gets you the total of 6CP (3 for Super Heavy, 3 for battleforged). It’s like the CP rules were changed at the last minute or something.

You are correct. I must have misread the article. My apologies.

So, I've been playing around with an idea, humor me folks.

Knight Preceptor
Las/Gauntlet (4++ Warlord Trait, Helm Dominatus)

2x 3 Helverins
Stubbers

All as Taranis.

This lets us almost guarantee the Preceptor stays alive, always, with the Strat to stand back up if he doesn't explode, while also giving us 6 Helverins that are BS2+ Rerolling 1s against a unit, or normally BS3+ rerolling 1s.

All the Helverins have FNP, super long range and run around with the Preceptor as a death blob, meanwhile the Preceptor is death gripping anything that comes too close, etc.

This with a guard or admech battalion could be interesting.

Untill you come up against a hoard and do nothing

Yep. That's absolutely a thing. Realized it while typing.

Equally curious about a similar process, but using Warglaives who would then at least be able to chew through hordes a bit easier, and potentially swap yourself to an Imperialis House, giving all the heavy stubbers -1 ap for the game, too.

Because I am not in the mood to buy Guard models and have like a dozen unbuilt Knight kits in my studio... I figured I would post up a super-generic, "oh look, another pure Knight list" that has likely already been posted.

Anyhow, here it is in all its shocking originality!

House Raven Exalted Court

Knight Warden
Avenger w/ HF, HS
Ion Bulwark
[411]

Knight Warden
Avenger w/ HF, HS
Landstrider
[411]

Knight Warden
Avenger w/ HF, HS
Cunning Commander
[411]

Knight Errant
TC, HS
[395]

Knight Gallant
Ironstorm
[370]

[1998]

Nothing fancy. Exalted Court gets me the 4++ and Landstrider, which seem mandatory. Cunning for the +1CP to offset the cost. This gives me 4CP to Rotate in a pinch and Full Tilt the Gallant. Not sure on the Relic just yet. The 2+ armor save on the Warlord is doable, but the Banner on the Gallant to re-roll 1's might not be bad.

Everything can advance and shoot. I know the Ironstorm isn't popular, but there aren't a lot of good ways to burn points in a pure Knight list.

Thoughts? Obviously, "add a Guard Battalion for CP" is out, but anything obvious I am missing?

U02dah4 wrote:
Untill you come up against a hoard and do nothing

This is also why it is important to bring an allied battalion. The amount of anti-horde that hellhounds, vultures, wyverns, punisher cannons, and the like can provide is nothing to scoff at. Ordinarily, we would say "ah but they don't have enough durability vs anti-tank weapons"

Every shot they take is a shot not directed at your knight, and if you do it right, you could absolutely get 2 (and probably up to 4 or maybe even 5 with the right deployment) vehicles protected vs turn 1 shooting somewhat with the Ion Aegis stratagem. Sure, it only protects against AP -3 or better if you have the tank standard 3+ save, but those are also usually the most damaging shots.

Stand next to that annoyingly hard to kill dominus class knight and profit!

That is not the only reason that it's good to bring allied guard. The armigers' output (which is still less than amazing to my eye) is not better than CP. Those stratagems will absolutely save your bacon. Imagine you're bringing 3 big knights. Want a warlord trait and a relic on all of them? Cool. That's 6 CP.

So you start with 3, get 3 for the super heavy detachment.....and then....oh wait. You have zero CP left, except for what your other detachments bring. Unbelievably necessary to use any significant amount of stratagems to have at minimum, 2 other battalions or a brigade IMO. If you don't want to play it that way, no worries, but you're going to have so much more fun (again, IMO) when you can actually USE your stratagems and not run out of CP on turn 1.

Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.

Mandragola wrote:
Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.

Is it, though?

48 shots
24 hits
16 wounds
10.67 failed saves
10.27 after FNP

Congrats, your six Armigers deleted 70 points worth of Plaguebearers. In my Nurgle Daemons lists, I run 60 of them.

If there's a Sloppity Bilepiper and an Icon, they then have a...

30.56% chance of getting d6 back, or 42.13% chance with a command point.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.

Is it, though?

48 shots
24 hits
16 wounds
10.67 failed saves
10.27 after FNP

Congrats, your six Armigers deleted 70 points worth of Plaguebearers. In my Nurgle Daemons lists, I run 60 of them.

If there's a Sloppity Bilepiper and an Icon, they then have a...

30.56% chance of getting d6 back, or 42.13% chance with a command point.

Yeah. It's not great. The threat of that alone halted the idea.

How might Warglaives face? One would hope with WS3+ and the new Sweep attack, they'd chew through things a bit better. Barring we operate in magical christmas land where they've survived.

I'm thinking:
2 Warglaives with meltas
2 Halverins with stubbers
Preceptor
Gallant
Crusader Avenger, RFBC, Melta

I have points left over for 1 storm spear but I'm not sure where to put it. I'm favoring the Crusader.

As to house I'm torn between Hawkshroud and Raven.

Everything else is up in the air.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.

Is it, though?

48 shots
24 hits
16 wounds
10.67 failed saves
10.27 after FNP

Congrats, your six Armigers deleted 70 points worth of Plaguebearers. In my Nurgle Daemons lists, I run 60 of them.

If there's a Sloppity Bilepiper and an Icon, they then have a...

30.56% chance of getting d6 back, or 42.13% chance with a command point.

Yeah. It's not great. The threat of that alone halted the idea.

How might Warglaives face? One would hope with WS3+ and the new Sweep attack, they'd chew through things a bit better. Barring we operate in magical christmas land where they've survived.

Worse, probably.

3 attacks
6 swings
3 hits
2 wounds
1.33 unsaved
.89 past the FNP

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.

Is it, though?

48 shots
24 hits
16 wounds
10.67 failed saves
10.27 after FNP

Congrats, your six Armigers deleted 70 points worth of Plaguebearers. In my Nurgle Daemons lists, I run 60 of them.

If there's a Sloppity Bilepiper and an Icon, they then have a...

30.56% chance of getting d6 back, or 42.13% chance with a command point.

Yeah. It's not great. The threat of that alone halted the idea.

How might Warglaives face? One would hope with WS3+ and the new Sweep attack, they'd chew through things a bit better. Barring we operate in magical christmas land where they've survived.

Worse, probably.

3 attacks
6 swings
3 hits
2 wounds
1.33 unsaved
.89 past the FNP

Assuming WS 3+ why do 6 swings generate only 3 hits? Shouldn't it be 4 (not that it will make that much difference)?

Plaguebearers inflict a -1 to hit if squad size is 20+.

Also Miasma of Pestilence.