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That's fair. The Raven stratagem is great on a Crusader. It's even better on a Castellan, but still very good value for the Crusader - especially if you've got a carapace weapon.

I'm still not sure it's the best household for that particular set of knights, because I don't think the household trait is all that good, but it's obviously not terrible. I think I'd probably replace the Gallant and one of the Crusaders with a couple of Wardens, so as to have more flexibility.

Any idea on when we might hear about FW Knights keyword fixes and/or point adjustments? I feel like it would make sense to bring them down to have them more in line with the overall points drop GW Knights got. I'm sorely tempted to pick up a Knight Atrapos...

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Any idea on when we might hear about FW Knights keyword fixes and/or point adjustments? I feel like it would make sense to bring them down to have them more in line with the overall points drop GW Knights got. I'm sorely tempted to pick up a Knight Atrapos...

Probably not until the FAQ/errata for the codex comes out. It should hit this week or next week.

Even then don't expect point changes. Just keyword thing. For points expect them on CA but then again as they are resin GW is more likely to up the points than drop.

tneva82 wrote:
Even then don't expect point changes. Just keyword thing. For points expect them on CA but then again as they are resin GW is more likely to up the points than drop.

I also wouldn't be expecting point drops, especially with some of the ways that FW knights and household strategum interactions as I don't get the impression that the codex designers thought about the FW knights during the codex.

Crusaders need to be mortan or raven. Either you want the IGNORE_MODIFIERS strategem or you want the REROLL_ALL_1S strategem. Either of those are huge for crusaders. A mortan crusader consistently drops 2 eldar MSU's a turn. A Krast crusader could also be a surprise strong pick with the +1/+2 damage against 10W/Titanic models.

Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.

Wulfey wrote:
Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.

Survivability could be one since that's going to be prime target and you will be facing 1-2 turns of shooting before shooting often enough. Or you don't believe in chapter/regiment/whatever hopping but actually play faction because you like fluff and not because it's most broken awesomeness for your current models.

Wulfey wrote:
Crusaders need to be mortan or raven. Either you want the IGNORE_MODIFIERS strategem or you want the REROLL_ALL_1S strategem. Either of those are huge for crusaders. A mortan crusader consistently drops 2 eldar MSU's a turn. A Krast crusader could also be a surprise strong pick with the +1/+2 damage against 10W/Titanic models.

Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.

Don't forget, a Mortan Crusader can keep a decent cushion between it and would-be attackers, allowing for them to use Legacy of the Black Pall to maximum effectiveness. And if something manages to charge them, they tap dance on 2s.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Crusaders need to be mortan or raven. Either you want the IGNORE_MODIFIERS strategem or you want the REROLL_ALL_1S strategem. Either of those are huge for crusaders. A mortan crusader consistently drops 2 eldar MSU's a turn. A Krast crusader could also be a surprise strong pick with the +1/+2 damage against 10W/Titanic models.

Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.

Don't forget, a Mortan Crusader can keep a decent cushion between it and would-be attackers, allowing for them to use Legacy of the Black Pall to maximum effectiveness. And if something manages to charge them, they tap dance on 2s.

It's 3s. Don't forget a Dominus knight only hits on a 4+ normally.

Hawkshroud or Raven are best for a Valiant. The Raven stratagem is actually pretty good for it, and of course the ability to advance and fire - along with landstrider - is fantastic.

Meanwhile the Hawkshroud tradition isn't bad, but as raven knight can easily replicate its effect. Their stratagem is amazing, but somewhat limited in that it only really applies to someone crazy enough to charge knights in the first place. In that situation it's clearly devastating.

I'd have to see Valiants fielded more often to really judge them. An awful lot depends on how games play out and whether they can get into range consistently. Actually that shouldn't be too hard for the flamer, but the harpoon and meltas will be more of a challenge. It's actually very strong in fights agaist things like Custodes and other knights, so it might be one of those units that's more useful in the meta than its stats would initially suggest. At the same time it's probably quite weak against hordes - though that's probably a problem the whole codex has up to a point.

Well, if a Valiant with that huge confragation flamer can't handle hordes, then the rest of the IK knights are probably in an even worse position against hordes.

Mandragola wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Crusaders need to be mortan or raven. Either you want the IGNORE_MODIFIERS strategem or you want the REROLL_ALL_1S strategem. Either of those are huge for crusaders. A mortan crusader consistently drops 2 eldar MSU's a turn. A Krast crusader could also be a surprise strong pick with the +1/+2 damage against 10W/Titanic models.

Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.

Don't forget, a Mortan Crusader can keep a decent cushion between it and would-be attackers, allowing for them to use Legacy of the Black Pall to maximum effectiveness. And if something manages to charge them, they tap dance on 2s.

It's 3s. Don't forget a Dominus knight only hits on a 4+ normally.

I was addressing the first part of the post about the Crusaders. Mortan Crusaders hit on 2s if they charge or are charged.

Mandragola wrote:
At the same time it's probably quite weak against hordes - though that's probably a problem the whole codex has up to a point.

That is what allies are for . IG detachment with 9-12 mortars and probably a couple of Hellhounds will be a hordes' worst nightmare.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, if a Valiant with that huge confragation flamer can't handle hordes, then the rest of the IK knights are probably in an even worse position against hordes.

Others knights costs up to 66% as much as valiant does though giving almost enough points for IG ally battallion etc.

tneva82 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, if a Valiant with that huge confragation flamer can't handle hordes, then the rest of the IK knights are probably in an even worse position against hordes.

Others knights costs up to 66% as much as valiant does though giving almost enough points for IG ally battallion etc.

And do the anti-horde killing nearly as well if not better (Battle Cannon Crusader with an Ironstorm will exceed the Valiant for a fraction of the price). Meanwhile, they also are better in close combat due to hitting on 3s with their tap-dancing.

The Valiant needs a substantial overhaul to be viable at this point.

Im playing 1 gallant + 1 crusader in house krast. krast gallant rapes anything with knight seneshal, and my crusader gets the rfbc + gatling relic and the reroll 1s to hit wl trait.

if you want to crush superheavys or vehicle/monster heavy armies get the krast-relic on 1 of them and melt through 10+ wound units.

my gallant one-shot a baneblade + other tanks with his feet last game with the krast relic. and the sheer amount of shots getting rerolled from the crusader + the bonus in the first cc phase is just too good to skip.

Careless of enemy to not have infantry etc front of baneblade to prevent you from charging.

Krast Relic is a bit of a waste on a Gallant; just get him the paragon guantlet.

Krast is better on a mixed thunderstrike and gun knight of any sort.

Krast turns a thunderstike into a slightly worse Paragon: maintains -1 to hit, 7 damage vs non-titanic, same exact profile vs Titanic.

Since Krast relic applies to all weapons increasing guns damage vs vehicles makes even the RFBC a good choice, and your stubbers become scarier along with also making an Ironstorm decent enough to be fired at vehicles.

Putting it on either Dominus chassis is almost overkill; but would be delightful.

Well 6*3 attacks w3+2 dmg vs titanic is no waste if you ask me (combine it with the krast strata for even more hits)

Here's my WIP 1750 List, while I wait for the FW FAQ.



Goal is pretty simple. Mortars pepper things outside of LOS, or help clear infantry, the Armigers and Preceptor all move up together in a bubble, rocking BS3+ rerolling 1s, BS2+ if we identify a problem target.

As they're all Taranis, that's 72 3+/5++/6+++ Wounds from the Armigers alone, with the Preceptor being kept alive (hopefully) on turns he might normally die with the Taranis strat, letting him buff the Armigers for as long as possible.

Only 10 Drops, so against most competitive armies I'm likely to secure the +1 to go first, helping this list even further.

C/C Welcome. I haven't yet been able to fiddle with any of these yet, still waiting to receive them.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, if a Valiant with that huge confragation flamer can't handle hordes, then the rest of the IK knights are probably in an even worse position against hordes.

Others knights costs up to 66% as much as valiant does though giving almost enough points for IG ally battallion etc.

And do the anti-horde killing nearly as well if not better (Battle Cannon Crusader with an Ironstorm will exceed the Valiant for a fraction of the price). Meanwhile, they also are better in close combat due to hitting on 3s with their tap-dancing.

The Valiant needs a substantial overhaul to be viable at this point.

The Valiant’s flamer is good against hordes but none of its other weapons are. Meltas, missiles and the harpoon are all for killing vehicles and other big stuff, and the siegebreaker cannons are kind of all-rounders. Endless Fury will tend to average a similar number of hits as the flamer, and if you pair it with a RFBC and ironstorm pod (and a couple of stubbers) a crusader will tend to land an awful lot more hits, from much further away.

The main problem the Valiant has is that its harpoon is kind of a joke. You could argue that it’s not a bad gun – it will totally wreck things when it does land a wound – but its usefulness is totally dependent on your opponent. What units do they bring and do they put them within 12” of your Valiant? And if they do, would four meltas not already get the job done?

I think House Krast is a really solid all-round performer. They’ve got clearly the best of the “slightly better in melee” traditions. Their warlord trait and relic are good and their stratagem is sort of useful – especially for stamping on plaguebearers. Krast doesn’t stand out quite as much as Raven or Taranis, but it’s still very good

That said, the thunderstrike gauntlet isn’t the way I’d go with the relic. In fact I think you’d almost always be better off kicking stuff and getting the bonus damage three times as often - potentially. I’d stick it on either a Crusader with ironstorm pod or a Castellan. I’d give serious thought to taking two Castellans – one with Cawl’s Wrath and the other with the Krast relic.

The Paragon Gauntlet is good for Krast though. It would be able to reroll all misses (not getting stuck with 3s that can’t be rerolled) and does 2 extra damage against everything – not just titanic targets. It probably isn’t needed though if you’ve got a castellan or crusader with the relic. Titanic stuff will already be suffering.

 _Ness wrote:
Well 6*3 attacks w3+2 dmg vs titanic is no waste if you ask me (combine it with the krast strata for even more hits)

You missed my point and are forgetting some very important factors.

Titanic feet on a Senechal Gallant get 18 rolls to hit vs your Titanic opponent with rerolls. Meaning you are going to land an average of just under 18 hits(we will call ot 18 for simplicity), you are hitting now with S8 vs T8(usually, and the first factor you forgot), this is 9 average wounds to save. Now the second factor you forgot is the -2 Ap, which means 3 of those wounds are going away vs most Titanic opponents(3+ save, -2 saves on a 5+). D3+2 damage averages to 4(average 2 damage +2 for Krast relic), 4*6 is 24 damage(doesn't even kill an opponent Questoris class knight on average). Yes, your potential damage is 90, but that is beholden to all 18 hits rolling a 4+, and then all 18 wounds failing their saves, followed by every d3 damage rolling a 3.

The paragon guantlet on a Gallant Senechal averages 6 hits with the rerolls, 5 wounds with the 2+ to-wound, -4 AP means no saves unless it has an Invulnerable, and finally 8*5=40 damage dealt to the Titanic opponent(which kills anything in the game).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Titanic feet on a Senechal Gallant get 18 rolls to hit vs your Titanic opponent with rerolls. Meaning you are going to land an average of just under 18 hits(we will call ot 18 for simplicity), you are hitting now with S8 vs T8(usually, and the first factor you forgot), this is 9 average wounds to save. Now the second factor you forgot is the -2 Ap, which means 3 of those wounds are going away vs most Titanic opponents(3+ save, -2 saves on a 5+). D3+2 damage averages to 4(average 2 damage +2 for Krast relic), 4*6 is 24 damage(doesn't even kill an opponent Questoris class knight on average). Yes, your potential damage is 90, but that is beholden to all 18 hits rolling a 4+, and then all 18 wounds failing their saves, followed by every d3 damage rolling a 3.

24 wounds would actually kill opponent knight. Albeit average hits will make it less in average. 17.5 hits which means about bit under 1W less in average.

But then again is the fist relic better against wide targets enough or is the times it's better like titanics too rare? Enemy will often enough be dictating wha you'll be charging with gallant so you'll be clearing up non-titanic stuff a lot of the time. Fist relic isn't all that useful there. Albeit neither might the other either. Which is why I prefer survivability relics for my gallants. Offensive wise they are often enough overkill anyway.

Mandragola wrote:

The main problem the Valiant has is that its harpoon is kind of a joke. You could argue that it’s not a bad gun – it will totally wreck things when it does land a wound – but its usefulness is totally dependent on your opponent. What units do they bring and do they put them within 12” of your Valiant? And if they do, would four meltas not already get the job done?

While I agree that the Harpoon is pretty much there for “anti whatever you want” plays, I also think people are not considering its usage against other units as well.

For example, a scout squad has the potential to lose 4 out of its 5 members from a single shot. Shooting it at a Guardsmen screening unit, will potentially cause a morale check where on a 4+ additional models flee. I know it’s not massive numbers, but, when you need to finish off an infantry unit you can potentially use this, instead of overkilling with the flamer.

It might sound odd to consider it, but, 1 harpoon shot and 4 melta shots into any unit hiding in cover is going to likely wipe the squad.

Kdash wrote:

It might sound odd to consider it, but, 1 harpoon shot and 4 melta shots into any unit hiding in cover is going to likely wipe the squad.

I wouldn't cause less than 3 casualties with bit more than half the time extra average 2 wounds as "likely to wipe the squad" except for maybe 5 strong infantry squads but then again even if that d3 MW was 100%(rather than less than 2/3 times) it would not be in average 5 wounds. Well close but still under it.

Wait so is the optimal Crusader loadout RCBC and AGC? Or is the Thermal Cannon and Avenger good for the points?

Just looking st the point cost and RFBCs seem to be just ok.

My Errant has been pretty boss in my games supporting my Grey Knights.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Titanic feet on a Senechal Gallant get 18 rolls to hit vs your Titanic opponent with rerolls. Meaning you are going to land an average of just under 18 hits(we will call ot 18 for simplicity), you are hitting now with S8 vs T8(usually, and the first factor you forgot), this is 9 average wounds to save. Now the second factor you forgot is the -2 Ap, which means 3 of those wounds are going away vs most Titanic opponents(3+ save, -2 saves on a 5+). D3+2 damage averages to 4(average 2 damage +2 for Krast relic), 4*6 is 24 damage(doesn't even kill an opponent Questoris class knight on average). Yes, your potential damage is 90, but that is beholden to all 18 hits rolling a 4+, and then all 18 wounds failing their saves, followed by every d3 damage rolling a 3.

24 wounds would actually kill opponent knight. Albeit average hits will make it less in average. 17.5 hits which means about bit under 1W less in average.

But then again is the fist relic better against wide targets enough or is the times it's better like titanics too rare? Enemy will often enough be dictating wha you'll be charging with gallant so you'll be clearing up non-titanic stuff a lot of the time. Fist relic isn't all that useful there. Albeit neither might the other either. Which is why I prefer survivability relics for my gallants. Offensive wise they are often enough overkill anyway.

I'd never give the Krast relic to a Gallant - because I wouldn't take a Krast Gallant. Rerolling to hits isn't very valuable when you've got a 2+ anyway. The rerolls generate more extra hits on a Questoris or Dominus knight. A Gallant gets 2.08 more hits, a normal Questoris gets 2.66 and a Dominus gets 3 more hits (a 50% improvement) from the tradition.

So what it does is to make a mediocre combat knight much better. A Crusader or Castellan with the Krast relic is a major threat to anything big, both at range and in melee. Remember after all that lots of softer targets than lords of war are affected. Having a rapid fire battlecannon that averaged 3 damage instead of 2 would almost be worth a relic on its own, before you count the fact that the gatling cannon, carapace weapon, the stubbers and even the feet are also buffed.

 TheMostWize wrote:
Wait so is the optimal Crusader loadout RCBC and AGC? Or is the Thermal Cannon and Avenger good for the points?

Just looking st the point cost and RFBCs seem to be just ok.

My Errant has been pretty boss in my games supporting my Grey Knights.

Both are good, in my opinion. The price of going for the RFBC would pay for a TC and ironstorm rocket pod, so on the whole I prefer the TC. But in the example above with the Krast relic the battlecannon would be significantly better.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Titanic feet on a Senechal Gallant get 18 rolls to hit vs your Titanic opponent with rerolls. Meaning you are going to land an average of just under 18 hits(we will call ot 18 for simplicity), you are hitting now with S8 vs T8(usually, and the first factor you forgot), this is 9 average wounds to save. Now the second factor you forgot is the -2 Ap, which means 3 of those wounds are going away vs most Titanic opponents(3+ save, -2 saves on a 5+). D3+2 damage averages to 4(average 2 damage +2 for Krast relic), 4*6 is 24 damage(doesn't even kill an opponent Questoris class knight on average). Yes, your potential damage is 90, but that is beholden to all 18 hits rolling a 4+, and then all 18 wounds failing their saves, followed by every d3 damage rolling a 3.

24 wounds would actually kill opponent knight. Albeit average hits will make it less in average. 17.5 hits which means about bit under 1W less in average.

But then again is the fist relic better against wide targets enough or is the times it's better like titanics too rare? Enemy will often enough be dictating wha you'll be charging with gallant so you'll be clearing up non-titanic stuff a lot of the time. Fist relic isn't all that useful there. Albeit neither might the other either. Which is why I prefer survivability relics for my gallants. Offensive wise they are often enough overkill anyway.

Yeah, I forgot for a secong that questoris have 24 wounds, not 26(have no idea why I was thing 26).

Relic fist is perfect against any vehicle on a gallant, still hitting on 2+ and negating Armour is nasty. T9 is the only Toughness that doesn't get wounded on a 2+. And it has an inherent 8 damage.

Even without the Relic fist(this is the bit I was thinking about), the Gallant actually has the perfect tool-box for melee:
- anything t8 or higher you use Thunderstrike, yes you only hit on a 3+ but nearly every hit will wound with no Armour save(again there are only a limited number of T9+ and 2+ save models out there), dealing 6 damage per hit.
- anything T7 or T6, or TEQ, and low model count, you use the reaper, you are going to hit and wound with nearly every attack and do 6 damage per here as well. TEQ only get a 5+ save so hitting 1 more is better than the Thunderstrike; which would have the same number of saves against it.
-against any T<8, higher model count unit, you stomp your Titanic Feet. The extra hits are going to be more valuable vs MEQ units than the better APs of the Big weapons, and any worse-save units are going to just fold like a pair of 2s.

Only issue with the Parahon Guantlet on a Gallant is that you have just rendered the Reaper as useless points spent. For this reason even it might be better on an errant or a warden.

For the Gallant the only Relics I would give it are Sanctuary, or one of the melee relics. You can Rotate Ion Shields on the Gallant in melee should he get charged(anything he charges is not likely to be there to return attacks if you have used the right weapons), and the Relic Chainswords are fairly good in their own rights. I already mentioned the pros and cons of the paragon.
Warlord traits are Senechal all the way, with some minor household exceptions(Griffin jousting, Terryn charge reroll, cadmus and Vulker damage mitigation).
Strats to use: full tilt is a maybe if he begins near a landstrider, rotate Ions especially if he has sanctuary, chainsweep/deathgrip, valiant last stand or resurgent machine spirit, or Thunderstomp to clear any remnants after stomping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola: Krast Tradition means that you are only missing 1 out of every 36 attacks, that is a lot better than 1 in 6.

But you do not take a Krast Gallant for the tradition, you take it for the strategem: double hits anytime the dice shows a 6. Really negates the need for the strategems it denies. Turns a Senechal Gallants 18 stompy feet hits into 21.

And yes, you give the relic to a mixed weapon knight.

Kdash wrote:

For example, a scout squad has the potential to lose 4 out of its 5 members from a single shot.

It has a potential to inflict no damage at all: if you fail that 3+ to-hit roll or a 2+ to-wound roll. It is a gamble even if your target does not have any negative to-hit modifiers and you are in a top damage bracket. If you are damaged or/and shooting at some sort of protected target (under Nightshroud for example) odds are starting to turn against you.

Firing the harpoon at infantry should only be bothered with if there are no optimal targets in range.

The flamer is already going to ruin their day, and all of the concerns you mention are negated anyways.
What I mean by bothering with it is that the unit you targeted both at is not likely to be there when it comes time to roll the to-hit that you are likely to fail with.

I don't think that you can really argue that the harpoon is a good anti-infantry weapon. Sure, if you hit and wound it will make one infantry model very dead indeed - along with D3 wounds worth of its friends. But it's still a phenomenally expensive way to kill not very many models.

The harpoon kills 1.66 guardsmen on average, including the chance to kill ~2 with mortal wounds. A siegebreaker turret kills more than that (1.85) at 48".

I know that you're not advocating this as a deliberate strategy - more that it's something the Valiant will do if it's got no better options. My complaint is that it will often have no better options, because its range is awful.

The thing is, the harpoon isn't better at killing tanks than a volcano lance anyway. It does less damage on average to a T7 3+ save target (8.88 vs 11.66) and at 12" range instead of the lance's more respectable 80".

On the other hand, maybe the average damage is less interesting than the chance of killing a vehicle outright. The harpoon has a 74% chance of doing at least 11 wounds to any vehicle in the game, so that's pretty reliable. The lance is arguably more swingy, because quite often the extra wounds it causes when it does well will be wasted. It needs to do two wounding hits at least to kill a tank, and there are lots of ways for that to not happen.

So I'd come back to range. The Lance gets to do that damage to a proprer target most of the time, because it has an effectively infinite range and it's attached to a knight with adequate mobility and the ability to see over intervening stuff. It should fire every turn, while the harpoon often won't get to fire, or will just splatter some ork who was about to be incinerated anyway.