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 LunarSol wrote:
Kind of a random question, but does anyone think it's worth spending a CP to throw a Culexus in for psychic defense?

Personally I don't think so, as you can add in psychic defence via your battalion element that your bringing for the CP.

Might be. My Guard support list has a primaris psyker for the defense.

Makes sense. I've been avoiding picking up any GW metals, but I might have to break down and pick up one of those guys one of these days.

Finally getting home after being away from home working for a while. Has anyone run a Styrix yet? Pre codex I ran my errant as one with decent success. I'm torn between Griffith and Raven as far as house traits go, and both have their merits with the Styrix. Griffith for making the exploding shots on the volkite proc more, and Raven for giving it the omnissiah mark, what with regenerating 2-5 wounds per turn on its own.

I like the model, and I plan on getting one here soon anyway, along with a cerastus of some sort. Just curious if anyone has used one yet, and how well it's performed for them.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The point with the Gallant is to combine the 2: A Gallant and A Crusader cost as much as a Warden and a paladin/errant(depending on crusader's gun)

Gallant Charging into the lines while the crusader attacks scarier enemy units. Opponent has to choose which threat to deal with.

Taking that Cawl's Wrath Castellan makes the choice even more difficult for the opponent, since that is even scarier than the crusader.

But my point was that you are not just wastefully throwing away your gallant while doing nothing with the rest of your army; you are effectively sacrificing the Gallant to give them a free turn.

But other knight than gallant can be even better distraction carnifex by actually threatening to kill more than chaff enemy would feed gallant with. Rathes than threat and suicide knight that you make easier to destroy you would have 2 threats which both are tougher than gallant

That is an issue with a Knight Main: all your knights are threats so the biggest threat the opponent sees is the first one he is going for.

As for the opponent feeding the Gallant Chaff; knights don't fall back, they fall foreward(assuming he didn't wipe out the chaff in the opponent's fight phase) and can then freely charge a better target.

The first part of the game, and the tactics we are discussing here, is deployment; even forcing the opponent's meltas into the back lines or tactical reserves is a good use of the Gallant's points, the actually killing and suicidal protection(remember as well that a knight exploding in the middle of your lines is also not something you want happening; that is why we have a Strat for making it happen) just returns final points.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Finally getting home after being away from home working for a while. Has anyone run a Styrix yet? Pre codex I ran my errant as one with decent success. I'm torn between Griffith and Raven as far as house traits go, and both have their merits with the Styrix. Griffith for making the exploding shots on the volkite proc more, and Raven for giving it the omnissiah mark, what with regenerating 2-5 wounds per turn on its own.

I like the model, and I plan on getting one here soon anyway, along with a cerastus of some sort. Just curious if anyone has used one yet, and how well it's performed for them.

Untill they are errataed adding a FW knight breaks the Lance rule, so no house hold traditions for any knights.

Does it break it or just not count towards it?

 LunarSol wrote:
Does it break it or just not count towards it?

Knight Lances
Select one model in each Imperial Knights super-heavy detachment.

Household Traditions
All units in an Imperial Knights super-heavy detachment.

If you don't have that keyword you can't be part of a that keyword detachment so it breaks both. Pg 106

Bonus points no strategums either as you need an Imperial Knights detachment for those and a bunch of them require Imperial Knights keyword to be played. Pg 108

 buddha wrote:
I should also through into the mix the thought that with armigers warglaives you can turn a gallant from distraction carnifex into a speartip. Your shoot elements still shoot but instead of just one CC threat it can overload a front as just killing the gallant won't relive the pressure.

Not a bad idea, particularly if the Gallant has Landstrider to help the Warglaives make their charges.

Can I have some advice and ideas please guys.

I want to play a semi-competitive agressive list that isn't afraid to get into melee but can't decide what to take. I don't really like the Valiant model but am not against adding it. I have 2 magnetised Knights already and I quite like both the Armigers (competitively I think the Helverin's are better but thematically I like the Warglaives).

Right now I'm toying with house Raven for the advance and shoot but I'm not sure if that's best for a melee focused knight army? Also, while I know I want one Gallant, I'd quite like a couple of Crusaders in there to support so I feel Raven is best and the stratagem is nice on one too. I keep trying to fit 4 Knights into a list then changing my mind and dropping one for some Helverins. I'm just not sure. For the price of 2 Helverins we can bring a Gallant that is so much more dangerous in melee...

What is the best bet? 3 tooled up Crusaders and a Gallant? Or maybe a Crusader, 2 Wardens/Errants and a Gallant?

I just can't make my mind up as all the options seem appealing.

I managed to get my Valiant and Renegade box built and painted enough to put on the table for a game on Tuesday night for science. pure Knights vs TAC Tau

I ran:

Hawshroud
Valliant, Traitor's Pyre, Ion Bulwark <warlord>
Crusader, tc, stormspear, Endless Fury
Crusader, tc, stormspear, Blessed by the sacristans (on the Avenger)
Gallant, Twin Icarus

vs

Tau

2 Fusion coldstars
Ethereal
30 strike
full squad of path finders
2 squads of stealthsuits
3 marksmen
1 unit of spare sheild drones
burst tide
stormsurge.

Lots of multi level terrain. He placed the first objective, putting his 3 on terrain as high as possible. I placed mine on the ground to block as much terrain as possible. Dawn of war deployment, I picked the side i was standing at out of lazyness and the terrain and objectives were pretty even, all low objectives were to my left and all the high objectives were to my right.

His first 4 drops were DS shield drones and the 3 marksmen.

I dropped my gallant first, front and center, a crusader flanking on each side and the valiant directly behind the gallant.
he deployed the rest of his stuff opposite and bubble wrapped the surge with the stealths in the mid field to grab objectives.

He won the roll off and i failed to seize.

His first turn, not much movement, shooting took the gallant down to 3 wounds.

My first turn moved the gallant to the side to let the valiant out and moved forward. Shooting took down a bunch of drones, the stormsurge and pathfinders. Valliant put the harpoon and meltas into a unit of stealths due to them being the only thing in range.

His turn 2 finished off the gallant and took the valiant down to 7 wounds.

My turn 2 continued the move up and the combination of shooting and tap dancing cored out most of the rest of his army leaving only a marksman, burst tide, commanders and some drones. The harpoon went into the riptide but passed to a drone who made it's invul.

Turn 3 he finished off the valiant, i used noble sacrifice and took 2 mortal wounds off the riptide.

The rest was just clean up the remaining few units. Game ended at the bottom of 4 with tau being tabled.

Out of my 6 CP i spent 1 on heirlooms, 1 on court, 1 on rotate, 1 on rerolling the number of shots on a thermal cannon and 2 on sacrifice.

MVPs Were:
The 4++ on the valiant, needless to say, don't want it blowing up before it gets into the middle of the opponents army.
Endless Fury and sacrisants on the gattling cannon, They felt comparable to each other.in terms of increased potential of troop killing, but i'd say the trait edged out the relic vs invuls.

Traitor's pyre was ok, the reroll to wound helped but most of what i was shooting with it was wounding on 2s and 3s anyway, so not a huge impact, although i expect it to have a larger impact on t7 or t8 targets.

Biggest drawback was the lack of CPs i would have very much liked to have had more CPs to spend and what i had was rationed for rotate ions and sacrifice. The reroll for TC shots was questionable but i had to make sure the stormsurge went down and ended up being worth it,

I'm happy the way things went, but other than that and what I've already said, i didn't have much of a take away other than knight lists set a new minimum threshold for the amount of anti tank that's needed.

I've got a game lined up for next week Vs a more tailored DG/Nurgle list so i'll see how that goes. I'm not sure if i want to change my list at all. Currently i think I'll leave it as is, as it's kinda hard to form an opinion after only 1 game.

Had two games today that were quite good.

First, IK versus Space Wolves
My list
Errant, Paladin, Warden, Valiant, Helverin
House Raven with Sanctuary Relic on Warlord (cunning for +1 cp)

His list
2 Ven Dreads (3+ invul), Bjorn, Runepriest, Techmarine, 2 squads of 5 Wulfen, 3 squads of 5 grey hunters, 1 space wolf flyer (I forget the name), and 1 allied Gallant

Long table edge deployment. Cloak and Shadows. I advanced, poured everything into wiping out 1 grey hunter squad and putting wounds on the dreads. Did very little.

Bjorn got in with the dreads and wrecked the Valiant.

From there on it was me trying to put wounds on those dreads and those dreads running in and knocking me out, with the flyer putting some good hurt on. When the Wulfen came in, they just added fuel to the fire.

I was tabled by turn 4! 3+ invul is sooooo good!

---

Second game vs. Death Guard. I'd learned a lot in the previous game and my opponent helped me build a new list.

My list:
Valiant, Crusader, Gallant, 2 Helverins, 1 Warglaive
House Hawkshroud, Traitor's Pyre, Paragon Fist, +1 CP Warlord trait

His list:
Mortarion, Rotigus, GUO, 2 units of Plaguebearers, 3 squads of 5 Plague Marines (some with melta, some with grenade launchers), Typhus, Plaguecaster, some Nurglings

He hides most of his stuff in or behind buildings. I get first turn and get closer with most of my stuff. Kick the Nurglings aside and wipe out two squads of plague marines.

His turn he moves up and does very little.

I put some hurt on the GUO.

He charges with the GUO into my Gallant. It does some damage but I merc the GUO. His other big stuff moves up.

I bring Rotigus down to 1 wound through weight of fire.

He charges Mortarion into my Crusader. Valiant uses Hawkshroud Stratagem to overwatch as well and heroic interventions. Crusader is lost to Mortarion. Typhus charges Gallant. Gallant mercs Typhus with fist.

Next turn, Valiant steps back and deletes Mortarion. At this point he's down to some plaguebearers and a weakened Rotigus.

Game conceded to IK.

Definitely learned a lot. The combination of Gallant and Crusader is, I think, a lot better than trying to take, say, a Paladin and Warden. You get a lot more firepower.

Also, Valiant works SO INCREDIBLY WELL with Hawkshroud and the Traitor's Pyre. That conflag cannon is what took Mortarion down, just piling on sooooo many wounds. I'd take it every time I take IK!

The harpoon is just meh. I'm awful with one-shot weapons. Always miss with them for some reason. Thankfully, the flamer and all the other weapons makes it worth it.

If your going to run the harpoon then you may want to consider house Vulker. I mean you're probably shooting at the closest unit anyway due to its short range and that way you at least get a free reroll on a miss.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

As for the opponent feeding the Gallant Chaff; knights don't fall back, they fall foreward(assuming he didn't wipe out the chaff in the opponent's fight phase) and can then freely charge a better target.

Assuming he doesn't simply surround the knight with chaff. The base is so big doesn't need to be that tight. Then you are either forced to charge the chaff or nothing. Just because enemy is close with chaff doesn't mean he HAS to charge you giving you free stomps and chance to fall back.

drbored wrote:
Had two games today that were quite good.

First, IK versus Space Wolves
My list
Errant, Paladin, Warden, Valiant, Helverin
House Raven with Sanctuary Relic on Warlord (cunning for +1 cp)

His list
2 Ven Dreads (3+ invul), Bjorn, Runepriest, Techmarine, 2 squads of 5 Wulfen, 3 squads of 5 grey hunters, 1 space wolf flyer (I forget the name), and 1 allied Gallant

Long table edge deployment. Cloak and Shadows. I advanced, poured everything into wiping out 1 grey hunter squad and putting wounds on the dreads. Did very little.

Bjorn got in with the dreads and wrecked the Valiant.

From there on it was me trying to put wounds on those dreads and those dreads running in and knocking me out, with the flyer putting some good hurt on. When the Wulfen came in, they just added fuel to the fire.

I was tabled by turn 4! 3+ invul is sooooo good!

---

Second game vs. Death Guard. I'd learned a lot in the previous game and my opponent helped me build a new list.

My list:
Valiant, Crusader, Gallant, 2 Helverins, 1 Warglaive
House Hawkshroud, Traitor's Pyre, Paragon Fist, +1 CP Warlord trait

His list:
Mortarion, Rotigus, GUO, 2 units of Plaguebearers, 3 squads of 5 Plague Marines (some with melta, some with grenade launchers), Typhus, Plaguecaster, some Nurglings

He hides most of his stuff in or behind buildings. I get first turn and get closer with most of my stuff. Kick the Nurglings aside and wipe out two squads of plague marines.

His turn he moves up and does very little.

I put some hurt on the GUO.

He charges with the GUO into my Gallant. It does some damage but I merc the GUO. His other big stuff moves up.

I bring Rotigus down to 1 wound through weight of fire.

He charges Mortarion into my Crusader. Valiant uses Hawkshroud Stratagem to overwatch as well and heroic interventions. Crusader is lost to Mortarion. Typhus charges Gallant. Gallant mercs Typhus with fist.

Next turn, Valiant steps back and deletes Mortarion. At this point he's down to some plaguebearers and a weakened Rotigus.

Game conceded to IK.

Definitely learned a lot. The combination of Gallant and Crusader is, I think, a lot better than trying to take, say, a Paladin and Warden. You get a lot more firepower.

Also, Valiant works SO INCREDIBLY WELL with Hawkshroud and the Traitor's Pyre. That conflag cannon is what took Mortarion down, just piling on sooooo many wounds. I'd take it every time I take IK!

The harpoon is just meh. I'm awful with one-shot weapons. Always miss with them for some reason. Thankfully, the flamer and all the other weapons makes it worth it.

I am glad you are having good experiences with the Valiant! I am still a supporter of Valiant. Think its a great knight to have in an IK army.

Considering that the codex actually says straight up on a page that Armigers contribute to a Knight Lance even though they can't according to the rules, and that people have been asking for the FW Knights to also be usable, do we think both of these things will be addressed in an FAQ?

I think the Armiger one will be addressed, but I'm conflicted about the FW Knights. I own two of them, so I want more than anything to be able to use them correctly in 40k as well, but have GW ever mentioned anything about FW products in their FAQs? I'm worried that we will have to wait for a FW FAQ regarding their Knights, and who knows if or when that will ever happen..

Given the mess FW currently seem to be in, I wouldn't hold my breath for anything from them for quite a while.
I do really want updated rules for my FW Knights though :(

 alleus wrote:
Considering that the codex actually says straight up on a page that Armigers contribute to a Knight Lance even though they can't according to the rules, and that people have been asking for the FW Knights to also be usable, do we think both of these things will be addressed in an FAQ?

I think the Armiger one will be addressed, but I'm conflicted about the FW Knights. I own two of them, so I want more than anything to be able to use them correctly in 40k as well, but have GW ever mentioned anything about FW products in their FAQs? I'm worried that we will have to wait for a FW FAQ regarding their Knights, and who knows if or when that will ever happen..

But question is how they will address armiger? Change the rule or clarify example texts were wrong? Either it changed from CP to no CP or no CP to CP late in the production so that's what we will likely end up in the end but there's no real way to say which one it is.

 Drider wrote:


MVPs Were:
The 4++ on the valiant, needless to say, don't want it blowing up before it gets into the middle of the opponents army.
Endless Fury and sacrisants on the gattling cannon, They felt comparable to each other.in terms of increased potential of troop killing, but i'd say the trait edged out the relic vs invuls.
e.

Don't have the book handy, but I didn't think you could put Blessing of the Sacristans onto Endless fury, or did you put it on the non relic Avenger?

2 crusaders. One with endless fury and the other one with sacristans on the avg. It's kind of accepted that knights would struggle putting out enough wounds to deal with a proper horde list and this seemed like the best solution to me.

They came out pretty on par with one another. Usually 2 extra hits from the relic and 2 extra mortal wounds from the trait.

 Drider wrote:
2 crusaders. One with endless fury and the other one with sacristans on the avg. It's kind of accepted that knights would struggle putting out enough wounds to deal with a proper horde list and this seemed like the best solution to me.

They came out pretty on par with one another. Usually 2 extra hits from the relic and 2 extra mortal wounds from the trait.

Thanks for the clarification. I'd probably run a very similar list of I could fit it into 1750. Congrats on the win and thanks for the batrep

tneva82 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

As for the opponent feeding the Gallant Chaff; knights don't fall back, they fall foreward(assuming he didn't wipe out the chaff in the opponent's fight phase) and can then freely charge a better target.

Assuming he doesn't simply surround the knight with chaff. The base is so big doesn't need to be that tight. Then you are either forced to charge the chaff or nothing. Just because enemy is close with chaff doesn't mean he HAS to charge you giving you free stomps and chance to fall back.

If your opponent is taking enough chaff to sac-block the charge, then move other units to surround the Gallant; that is 3 units of chaff and less big threatening weapons against the knights as a whole. The strategy has still performed to expectations. He is either losing another unit of chaff in your turn, or still focusing fire on the gallant instead of the longer ranged knights that are also tearing through his big guns/ melee units.

As for the Armiger issue in a Knight Lance: they do not have to errata the erroneous examples; but those could be addressed in the FAQ. I think we would all rather them Errata the Lance rule down to 2 big knights for CP retention though.

Also as a blamket Address to the Thread as a whole: Knight Lance Armiger issue only removes the CPs, a Lance of just 3 Armigers(in separate units) will still get Household Traditions and a Free Character.

Godeskian: he had indicated that the WL trait and relic are on different models in the list.

What's your opinion on using Warglaives? I'm on the fence with them: it seems they _can_ be quite good but on the other hand, can do nothing at all. Maybe it's better to invest the same points in the IG tanks?

Honestly, the chaff issue has me wanting to equip my Gallant with an Ironstorm Missile Pod. But my Crusader and Warden (ironically, I have a Tripartate Lance from 7e, completely unintentionally) will mow down as much as they can to clear a space for the Gallant to charge in. If my opponent didn't surround high value targets with chaff, I will use Full Tilt on my Gallant and launch him at the big stuff. If they did, I will be laying down fire with the Ironstorm. Sure, it won't do a ton of legwork, but it will be better than nothing.

Not to mention you could make an armigers a freeblade, though I'm not sure if you would want to.

Question for those of you who are math hammer inclined- Which is more efficient for their points an Armiger Warglaive with a melta gun (177) or a Storm Talon with twin Lascannons (204) from both an offensive and survivability level?

I ask because I can put either in an army I'm planning but can't figure out which to use.

Thanks for the input.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Question for those of you who are math hammer inclined- Which is more efficient for their points an Armiger Warglaive with a melta gun (177) or a Storm Talon with twin Lascannons (204) from both an offensive and survivability level?

I ask because I can put either in an army I'm planning but can't figure out which to use.

Thanks for the input.

Against what? And what are the Stormtalon stats and weapons?

Entirely dependent on your lust vs your opponents list

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Question for those of you who are math hammer inclined- Which is more efficient for their points an Armiger Warglaive with a melta gun (177) or a Storm Talon with twin Lascannons (204) from both an offensive and survivability level?

I ask because I can put either in an army I'm planning but can't figure out which to use.

Thanks for the input.

Offensively the Stormtalon puts out more damage at range via Strafing run and 18 more inches of range on the lascannons but only 6" less on the twin asscans. More average to hit roll will be made and will hit even at half wounds.

Survivability on the other hand... It has a 16.666% less chance of being hit so long as you do not hover, but you are wounded easier by Str 6 and 7 weapons(16.666% more on str 6, 33.3333% more on str 7) so any Autocannon that hits is more likely to damage.

They both have similar roles(tank busting and some light chaff removal), but do so at vastly different ranges(up to 48 for tank busting on talon, 15" to melee really on warglaive. Then 24" for chaff removal on talon and only melee for warglaive).

The warglaive can stand up better in a fight with the same basic Save bit a 5++ to ranged as well as the much higher toughness, but the talon is hard to hit when not hovering and cannot be charged.

Shouldn't the FAQ be coming out soon?