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Yeah well okay you can use them but can't give. Gg

Not to mention i specified EXTRA traits and relics. Ain't my fault lf you can't be bothered to read

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah well okay you can use them but can't give. Gg

Not to mention i specified EXTRA traits and relics. Ain't my fault lf you can't be bothered to read

Again, can you provide a *reason* why you cannot give a forgeworld questoris class knight the exact same treatment as a GW questoris class knight? (IE extra traits and relics) the FAQ has already granted all the proper key words that were missing before.

There does not appear to be a single rule or keyword different between the two, so why are you insisting they be treated differently?

 easysauce wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah well okay you can use them but can't give. Gg

Not to mention i specified EXTRA traits and relics. Ain't my fault lf you can't be bothered to read

Again, can you provide a *reason* why you cannot give a forgeworld questoris class knight the exact same treatment as a GW questoris class knight? (IE extra traits and relics) the FAQ has already granted all the proper key words that were missing before.

There does not appear to be a single rule or keyword different between the two, so why are you insisting they be treated differently?

Because the stratagems specifically do not include Acastus Class or Cerastus Class.

You can use the stratagems on Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix though... But, i don't see anyone normally running either of these 2 Knights over the standard Knights - at least competitively.

Kdash wrote:

You can use the stratagems on Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix though... But, i don't see anyone normally running either of these 2 Knights over the standard Knights - at least competitively.

They have their niche with the cool factor, but yes, that is exactly what I am getting at, nothing about being a FW/GW matters, only the class of knight matters.

my meta is pretty loaded with Dark Eldar players so i try to build lists that arent overly CP dependant. How would someone run a Single Knight (i run a Castellan) that would be the least CP dependant ?

I still think that burning the 2 CP for +1 invuln and the relic plasma is a must. So Mechanicus is a must. After that. im not so sure if its a must.. other than 1 round of rotate shields. or a +1 to shoot/wound

 easysauce wrote:

Kdash wrote:

You can use the stratagems on Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix though... But, i don't see anyone normally running either of these 2 Knights over the standard Knights - at least competitively.

They have their niche with the cool factor, but yes, that is exactly what I am getting at, nothing about being a FW/GW matters, only the class of knight matters.

Okay so there was 2 knights with right keywords. Point was pretty much all FW knights don't have that class as they are cerestus knights. So sligh error. Forgot the tiny minority of FW knights rarely are even used. Point is 99% of FW knights that see us can't be given extra traits/relis.

 zedsdead wrote:
my meta is pretty loaded with Dark Eldar players so i try to build lists that arent overly CP dependant. How would someone run a Single Knight (i run a Castellan) that would be the least CP dependant ?

I still think that burning the 2 CP for +1 invuln and the relic plasma is a must. So Mechanicus is a must. After that. im not so sure if its a must.. other than 1 round of rotate shields. or a +1 to shoot/wound

Take House Vulker SHD Castellan with Relic Plasma, Ion Bulwark WT and 2x Helverins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Games Workshops cunning plan is obvious

1. Release Knights, make everyone scramble for counters
2. Release new codex's with superior melee counters GSC, Wulfen
3. Release counter to all in 2019 with cheap Sisters flamer/melta everywhere.
4. ...
5. Profit.

X078 wrote:

Games Workshops cunning plan is obvious

1. Release Knights, make everyone scramble for counters
2. Release new codex's with superior melee counters GSC, Wulfen
3. Release counter to all in 2019 with cheap Sisters flamer/melta everywhere.
4. ...
5. Profit.

This guy gets it...

I am surprised not more people take advantage of the styrix's 4++ (5++ in melee) as a melee bruiser/tank... re gen a wound each turn on a 5+ is nice. The ranged damage isnt as good as a regular questoris, but its a trade off for durability.

In a lone knight supported by admech sort of role they seem to always take a tonne of firepower to take out, have a couple tech priests near and it can get ridiculous.

Okay will be taking knights out for first time tomorrow. Original plan had been knight + IG ally for some CP but with FAQ changes figured I'll try out full knights instead. If nothing else get to try out all new toys I have!

Planning to field following with house raven.

Castellan: 2xsiege breakers, 1xshield breaker, cawl's wrath, 4++
Crusader: Endless fury, thermal cannon, melta gun
Errant
2xhelverin(separatedly)
armiger(melta gun)

So 2 detachments. I figured I want to deploy helverins separately. Probably on flanks with armiger leading the way with errant forming up front line. Crusader and castellan follow up. Could put helverins on 1 choise but I think 6 deployments will give me +1 anyway and with extra cheap drop maybe get to see SOMETHING of real deployment before putting big boys.

Wondering if I should get more relics or more likely extra warlord trait or start with 8 CP. Land strider for errant might not be worst ideas out there. 12"+d6"+2" movement and shooting at full speed could be fairly useful ability. Maybe decide when starting up game.

And now we have even more knights coming soon from FW to shake it up. Can't wait to see what new Armiger and Dominus variants they come up with!

I think pure-knights lists are going to become even more viable. Yeah, Orks, Space Wolves, and GSC being melee-based is going to cramp our style, but that just means we need cheap screens.

drbored wrote:
And now we have even more knights coming soon from FW to shake it up. Can't wait to see what new Armiger and Dominus variants they come up with!

I think pure-knights lists are going to become even more viable. Yeah, Orks, Space Wolves, and GSC being melee-based is going to cramp our style, but that just means we need cheap screens.

Oh man, the FW preview. I really love their alternate parts - I have all the heads! I am hopeful they make the Dominus and Armigers look good. I really don't dig them but a Castellan seems like a no-brainer, especially for Mech houses.

Here is my current build list for a pure-Knight army. I need to get the silly little bebe Knights.



Thoughts on that? I am a bit out of the loop because I am in the middle of packing/moving. That look right? Viable?

 easysauce wrote:

X078 wrote:

Games Workshops cunning plan is obvious

1. Release Knights, make everyone scramble for counters
2. Release new codex's with superior melee counters GSC, Wulfen
3. Release counter to all in 2019 with cheap Sisters flamer/melta everywhere.
4. ...
5. Profit.

This guy gets it...

I am surprised not more people take advantage of the styrix's 4++ (5++ in melee) as a melee bruiser/tank... re gen a wound each turn on a 5+ is nice. The ranged damage isnt as good as a regular questoris, but its a trade off for durability.

In a lone knight supported by admech sort of role they seem to always take a tonne of firepower to take out, have a couple tech priests near and it can get ridiculous.

Well you can get hold of a standard knight for £50-60 your paying double for one of these

And on the field yes its tankier with less firepower but its also 10% more expensive i mean a galant is 150ish cheaper

tneva82 wrote:

MistaGav wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

I would assume Raven. Reroll 1's on everything strategem. Number of shots, to hit, to wound, damage...That thing on castellan is pure evil. With that blowing up repulsor and leman russ at once without even melta guns/shoulder guns/missile is not unfeasible.

Ohh yes I didn't even see that one. I'm getting my Stratagems mixed up from my Warlord traits and Houses and all sorts. That is a pretty nasty Stratagem!

Yeah it seems like tailor made for Castellan sporting Cawl's wrath. It just deletes vehicle or two per round plus whatever meltas and carapace weapons do.

Pretty good on the Crusader too. All of a sudden, the RFBC doesn't look so shabby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Last tournament I went had 3 orks(me included) And if it's ork army you can be fairly sure it's boyz spam as 200+ models is pretty much only thing orks can field that can win.

And plaguebearer spam, cultist spam, even IG trooper spam.

This is what worries me slightly about Knights, they seem really strong against balanced or elite-heavy list but will struggle against hordes. I would prefer armies to be balanced so that any decently balanced army will stand a fair chance based on the skill of the player and luck of the dice. Relying on the meta to balance Knights in a rock-paper-scissors fashion is going to lead to extremely unsatisfying games.

The relic argument seems silly to me. It's obvious RAI.

FW FAQ isn't going to update GW codex, and GW codex isn't going to update a strat for FW keywords.

They did, however, give them all the other keywords.

Not even a discussion for me.

** I see it. I get it. It's just dumb. It's, clearly, RAW, but I wont agree it's RAI.

Elite CC can still do a lot to knights units like haminators DC with TH smash captains are all superb vs knights.

Sure the meta has changed with knights and you need to acount for that.

Competative 40k has and will always have extreme armies.

 zedsdead wrote:
my meta is pretty loaded with Dark Eldar players so i try to build lists that arent overly CP dependant. How would someone run a Single Knight (i run a Castellan) that would be the least CP dependant ?

I still think that burning the 2 CP for +1 invuln and the relic plasma is a must. So Mechanicus is a must. After that. im not so sure if its a must.. other than 1 round of rotate shields. or a +1 to shoot/wound

Go House Raven. The movement benefits are huge for any Knight, and any Warlord trait and relic you it will be additional benefits you don’t have to spend CP on during the game.

SJ

So speaking of Elite, I would LOVE to use Elites and more Elites with my army. I was thinking:


Astra Militarum Battalion CP Battery (this thing is almost mandatory)

Custodes Outrider Detachment
-1 HQ
-3 squads of Jetbikes
-Vexilla with -1 to Hit buff

Super-Heavy Aux
-Knight Castellan (Raven) with Cawl's Wrath and Ion Bulwark

You start with 9 CP and use 2 on the Knight, leaving you with 7. You're also not even at 2,000 points yet so you still have some wiggle room for more stuff.

What do you get out of a list like this?

ObSec: 3 squads of Infantry with objective secured plus 3 squads of SUPER fast and durable Jetbikes also with ObSec.

Anti-Horde: You have a minimum of 10 Hurricane Bolters. That's 60/120 S4 shots on a 14" Move platform.

Anti-Armor: It's a Knight Castellan with access to the 're-roll all 1's' stratagem. I think this basically explains itself.

CP Regen: With a Company Commander warlord, you get the 5+ regeneration. You even have Shoulder the Mantle should someone kill him for an objective point!

Durability: 43 T6 2+/4++ wounds, 28 T8 3+/5++ wounds, 30 wound of T3 fodder, plus some extra.

Melee Dominance: I mean, the Jetbikes are S6 and re-roll failed wounds on the Charge. At 1D3 damage apiece, they're gonna chew things apart.

This is where my thoughts are headed currently.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
my meta is pretty loaded with Dark Eldar players so i try to build lists that arent overly CP dependant. How would someone run a Single Knight (i run a Castellan) that would be the least CP dependant ?

I still think that burning the 2 CP for +1 invuln and the relic plasma is a must. So Mechanicus is a must. After that. im not so sure if its a must.. other than 1 round of rotate shields. or a +1 to shoot/wound

Go House Raven. The movement benefits are huge for any Knight, and any Warlord trait and relic you it will be additional benefits you don’t have to spend CP on during the game.

SJ

He's asking for lone knight. That means aux detachment which means no house trait.

Raven is actually CP dependent because you need the 2 CP stratagem to allow you to reliably overcharge and to increase the consistency of the guns.

I prefer krast even though you don’t get the re-roll hits in combat trait because you can take a warlord trait that lets you re-roll ones to hit, and there’s nothing Vect can do about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mini mini bat rep from this afternoon’s game:

Played my knights list, which consists of:

And his list:

This game wasn’t particularly exciting after I went first and dropped Magnus (just from the Shadowsword!). But it was interesting to see Morty nearly drop a knight in one round of combat! And that’s skullreaver daemon prince is terrifying!

Thoughts post game:
1) Buying a shadowsword. Immediately.
2) Machine spirit resurgent is just too good
3) I know some people are high on hawkshroud, but I get the hawkshroud bonus (when I need it on one knight) for 1 CP and then I can still use the Krast bonus all game long
4) Re-rolling hits in combat is so so good. And really necessary vs hordes and other things that give knights trouble
5) I know a lot of people like taking just the shooty knights, but I am not at all sad about using a warden for a cc weapon or just a straight up gallant. So so good when you need those weapons.

What strategem you have in mind for shadowsword?

Firstborn pride. Lets it hit on a 3+, or a 2+ if the target is titanic

What do people think of my 1750 list? I want to go all Knights if possible, and with the changes to CP and FW Knights, this should work nicely I think.

 alleus wrote:
What do people think of my 1750 list? I want to go all Knights if possible, and with the changes to CP and FW Knights, this should work nicely I think.

Spoiler:

Household: Will try Raven first of all, but Hawkshroud is always looking nice as well. Relics will work for both.
2 Extra Heirlooms stratagem

Super Heavy Detachment:

Knight Lancer
Warlord trait: Ion Bulwark
Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion

Knight Gallant with Melta Gun and Stormspear Rocket Pod
Heirloom: Paragon Gauntlet

Knight Crusader with Heavy Stubber, Thermal Cannon, Avenger Cannon and Stormspear Rocket Pod
Heirloom: Endless Fury

2x Armiger Helverin with Heavy Stubber

This creates a very durable (2+ armour save, as well as a 4+ invul against both ranged and melee) Warlord that will go around killing big priority targets with the Gallant close behind, with fire support from the Crusader, as well as the Helverins that can act as objective holders also.

How competitive do you want to be? If you drop the rocket pod and the armigers, you can get 2 guard battalions. Not only is that screening bodies and anti infantry weapons but it is also 10! more CP. 19 looks a lot nicer than 9 IMO.

That being said, if you want to go 100% pure knights, I’d go Krast over Raven. Re-rolls to hit in combat are just too nice

Competitive is fine, but flavour is more important to me. All Knights is such a cool concept, but I can definitely see myself adding some Guard battalions if I want to be more competitive.

Krast does look pretty good as well, especially since I'm using two melee Knights. Since the relics I'm using aren't locked to any Household or Loyalty, I can switch around and test a bunch of different traditions :-)

I think that when it comes to CP, there is such a thing as 'too many'. When games end by turn 3 or 4 (either because of tournament time limits or just because you or your opponent have already been tabled) there's only so much you can do. Assume 3 turns of Rotate Ion Shields, plus an extra CP for an extra relic, so ok, you've got 4 CP spent. Add a re-roll each turn and you're up to about 8. Do you really need 19? Add in a stratagem or two and really, 12 is probably all you need.

Funnily enough, you can get 12 CP just by making a normal 2k list with two superheavy detachments, one with 3 questoris and one with 1 questoris and 2 armigers.

At 1750 it gets a little tighter, but you can still get 9 cp in there with pure knights. If you really want to add a guard battalion, I feel that only 1 is necessary to get you up to 14.

19 is just excessive, especially at 1750.

Can you not take Armigers in a “Questor Mechanicus” detachment and gain the 3 CP? You won’t gain any House benefits, and you would have to gain stratagems from another detachment. But I think only “Imperial Knights” detachments have the restriction about the CPs.

Krand wrote:
Can you not take Armigers in a “Questor Mechanicus” detachment and gain the 3 CP? You won’t gain any House benefits, and you would have to gain stratagems from another detachment. But I think only “Imperial Knights” detachments have the restriction about the CPs.

Thev are all imperial knights. Imperial knigh and questor imperials are differen things


Automatically Appended Next Post:

drbored wrote:
I think that when it comes to CP, there is such a thing as 'too many'. When games end by turn 3 or 4 (either because of tournament time limits or just because you or your opponent have already been tabled) there's only so much you can do. Assume 3 turns of Rotate Ion Shields, plus an extra CP for an extra relic, so ok, you've got 4 CP spent. Add a re-roll each turn and you're up to about 8. Do you really need 19? Add in a stratagem or two and really, 12 is probably all you need.

Funnily enough, you can get 12 CP just by making a normal 2k list with two superheavy detachments, one with 3 questoris and one with 1 questoris and 2 armigers.

At 1750 it gets a little tighter, but you can still get 9 cp in there with pure knights. If you really want to add a guard battalion, I feel that only 1 is necessary to get you up to 14.

19 is just excessive, especially at 1750.

I just burned 8 cp ingame and would have desperately needed more. This without single rotate shield on castellan. Knights are cp hungry

drbored wrote:
I think that when it comes to CP, there is such a thing as 'too many'. When games end by turn 3 or 4 (either because of tournament time limits or just because you or your opponent have already been tabled) there's only so much you can do. Assume 3 turns of Rotate Ion Shields, plus an extra CP for an extra relic, so ok, you've got 4 CP spent. Add a re-roll each turn and you're up to about 8. Do you really need 19? Add in a stratagem or two and really, 12 is probably all you need.

Funnily enough, you can get 12 CP just by making a normal 2k list with two superheavy detachments, one with 3 questoris and one with 1 questoris and 2 armigers.

At 1750 it gets a little tighter, but you can still get 9 cp in there with pure knights. If you really want to add a guard battalion, I feel that only 1 is necessary to get you up to 14.

19 is just excessive, especially at 1750.

Completely disagree with this. Remember that you’re likely spending 6 CP before the game starts on extra relics and warlord traits. So let’s say you or your opponent play slow and only get through 3 turns (rather unlikely with knights as they play pretty quickly, but for the sake of argument)

Turn 1: (yours) likely re-rolling something in the shooting phase, full tilting to get into combat after an advance, re-rolling a wound in the fight phase (4 CP)
Turn 1: (your opponent’s) re-roll invulnerable save, rotate ion shields (2 CP)
Rinse and repeat 2 more times, add in machine spirit resurgent, plus remember that if you’re a dominus knight, it costs 3 CP to rotate. You can rotate icon shields in CC if you have the sanctuary relic. If you have a dominus, you’re certainly going to want to use your shield breakers once or twice on characters. Want to death grip something with a good invuln? Oh don’t forget reliably exploding to dish out mortal wounds like crazy.

Tbh, I find that the guard battalion is necessary not only for the bodies but also for the extra cp relic and warlord trait. Knights just get exponentially better with stratagems because they are such a large portion of an army. They’re basically all mini Death Stars.

So in short, knights CAN be run without guard because they can get 9-12 CP on their own now. Most non-competitive armies lack the tools to deal with 4-5 knights, so yeah you can do fine without CP past turn 2 (because you won’t have any if you start with only 3-6 after relics and warlord traits). But tbh the stratagems are so cool and flavorful that I can’t imagine getting to turn 3 and running out of steam like that.

Played my first game with full knight army and with new toys. List was as I posted so castellan with 2 siege breakers, 4++ and cawl's wrath, crusader with thermal cannon and meltagun, errant with heavy stubber, 2 individual helverins and warglaive with meltagun. 2 raven detachments. Crusader got relic gatling gun so started with 8 CP. Oh and errant had warlord trait of 1 reroll and 1 CP so basically free one reroll(this is IMO one of the most silly traits. If you don't want to spend extra CP's for warlord traits you get one free reroll. If you take any other CP's you will then pay 1 CP for one reroll which is too expensive).

I was up against dark eldars with 3 or maybe 4 venoms with kabalites, huge 12 strong bike squad, couple HQ's, 3 cronos, 3 ravagers(one with dark lances, one with disintegrators, don't recall what other had). scourges with heat lances, scourges with haywires. Maybe something else. We played tactical gambit with vanquard deployment(the one where you are basically on quarters).

He deep striked bunch of stuff failing to regenerate CP's so after I had deployed my army all he had was warlord that went there to try CP regeneration. I got first turn but he seized. Drat. So basically he came forward fast and blew warglaive and hurt my crusader big time. To put theme to the game I failed 5 out of 7 4++ rolls. Gee. TYVM.

I circled around terrain hoping to do some hurt. I started shooting phase with raven strategem but annoyingly it was cancelled. BTW knights have precious few ways to prevent that. We have nothing really in before first shooting phase to draw it and it's first thing in shooting phase so I couldn't even tempt him to prevent something else in shooting. Not that we have anything he would want to prevent more than this...So castellan had to shoot without it. To ensure -1 to hit strategem wasn't going to screw me completely I split(plus besides otherwise soft targets so no point overkilling). I started with missile using strategem hoping to get rid of warlord. 1 to hit...Well drat. Command reroll. Hit. 1 to wound...Oh bummer.

Volcano lance against squadron of 3 cronos figuring that's good because each hit could kill one and as there's more less chance of hits going miss. It was that or ravagers but problem with ravagers would be due to terrain I was scarily close to the cronoses. Anyway moot point. 1 shot, hit, 1 wound...WTF?

At this point I was more than desperate so declaring overcharge with cawl's wrath it and the shoulder cannons I had assigned with it just to be safe fired at one ravager that blew up. Even this was BARELY as bad rolling and -1 to hit strategem played hurt me. Oh and 3 wounds to castellan for my trouble. 1 stinking ravager killed. I was hoping more.

Crusader fired at cronos. Think I Was too affraid though idea of letting them hit castellan was scary. Maybe they don't reach, maybe they might not hurt it. Either way didn't want to risk it. Thermal lance did good job killing 2(yey) but endless fury failed utterly to even hurt damn thing.

Errant failed to do anything and crusader's charge ate blaster for extra 6 damage and caused just 1 wound to biker. DRAT!

His 2nd turn scourges came in. One tried to hurt castellan for light effort, another wrecked helverin. In combat he wrecked poor crusader though only barely. Surviving cronos that had come to help just in case failed to actually hurt making me think I really overestimated them and wrecking jetbikes with endless fury would have been better.

By now VP's were 7-2 as he had better luck with them. Actually for next 2 turns I got NOTHING that I could even really hope to do...

My 2nd turn and it was Castellans shining moment. Moving up it triggered raven strategem and he had only 1 CP left so couldn't stop it. HAH! Splitting my guns to maximum effect volcano lance vaporized disintegrator ravager. 3 wounding hits, 9d3 damage rerolling 1's. BOOOM! Cawl's wrath blew out last ravager. BLAM! Shoulder guns(and missile which I wasted) dropped last cronos. And melta guns dropped venom that had came nearby to take objective. Now that's more like it!

Elsewhere errant moved forward not doing much with guns and trying to charge both bikes and venom(venom in case I roll short). I rolled short due to terrain -2 so went to venom instead destroying it and having it blow in face. Helverin charged(yes charged) scourges of mucha haywire mortal wounds failing to do anything.

Anyway rest of game was basically him hurting castellan slow and steady. Well actually steadily as my 4++ failed to work at all doing like 1 out of 6 saves. The way I Was rolling even rotating ion shield would have been useless piece of 3 CP wasted...Errant was tagged into combat with S5 bikes getting chipped steadily and prevented from getting out of combat so was stomping like crazy but 12 bikes with 6++ is surprisingly tough to clear away. Castellan managed to still finish off the scourges, cause 3 wounds to character that had come too far forward and kill bunch of other scourge unit before finally dying when 3 S8 d6 damage hits got in and I saved just 1. At this point with 20-3 vp's(I had stuff like hold 3 objectives(gee that's easy), defend objective 6(oh yeah that's the one as far from my units as possible behind big pile of dark eldars), kill character in h2h(yeah those that are behind huge pile of sacrificial minions) and have 3 units on my DZ with no enemy. Well by the time that got that was my entire army and there was scourge unit I was struggling to clear...TYVM!

That 1st turn hurt. Really hurt. He got to move boxing me in hurting objectives, he killed 1 knight and hurt 2nd with big pile of lousy saves and my return attack was pathetic due to some serious bad luck and mistarget with gatling gun...After that writing was on the wall. But at least castellan got to shine blowing whopping 4 units out out of the sky right away. Don't think I have ever managed to do that!

Kdash wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah well okay you can use them but can't give. Gg

Not to mention i specified EXTRA traits and relics. Ain't my fault lf you can't be bothered to read

Again, can you provide a *reason* why you cannot give a forgeworld questoris class knight the exact same treatment as a GW questoris class knight? (IE extra traits and relics) the FAQ has already granted all the proper key words that were missing before.

There does not appear to be a single rule or keyword different between the two, so why are you insisting they be treated differently?

Because the stratagems specifically do not include Acastus Class or Cerastus Class.

You can use the stratagems on Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix though... But, i don't see anyone normally running either of these 2 Knights over the standard Knights - at least competitively.

I haven’t seen them being used either but is that maybe because straight up nobody owns the models?

Styrix for 475 has a 4++, 5++ in close combat, take the regeneration relic, some sort of warlord trait like reroll 1s to hit or taranis, have an enginseer follow it around, who is going to kill that?