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The more I look at the warlord traits, I really don't see more than 2 that I would NEED every game, and you can change which ones you take each game.

The relics....goodness I would take 5 if I could, but the relic plasma on the castellan and either the paragon gauntlet or a 5++ in cc, or maybe a 2+ save.

TLDR there's a pretty strong case for 3 relics but I don't see 3 warlord traits being always useful.

Even so, you're trading grand strategist for:

A) extra relics
B) effectively you lose 1 CP if you take 3 relics and 3 warlord traits
OR
C) if you take 2 relics and 3 warlord traits, or 3 relics and 2 warlord traits, you gain 1 CP (-2 from spending only 1 on one of the stratagems but +1 on taking Kurov's)
OR
D) if you take 2 relics and 2 warlord traits, you gain 3 CP

So you say to yourself, do I want 3 more CP and one less relic/warlord trait, one less CP and one less relic and warlord trait, or do I want to keep grand strategist and have just 2 relics and 2 warlord traits?

It's actually not the easiest of questions, but it's one that has to be decided in your list building phase, as you can't typically change warlords from round to round in a tournament event (though from game to game in a friendly setting for play testing purposes, go for it!)

Mathematically speaking, if you're only trying to get the most command points, it's actually a little more complicated that you would think because, as has been pointed out, with grand strategist, the CP you gain becomes CP you can spend. Additionally, don't forget about Kurov's.

Someone smarter than me can do the math on this to find the breaking point, but simple math says that it is obviously worth 3 CP to take grand strategist alone if you have 9 CP at the time you begin deployment, as you would gain, on average, 3 CP during the game, and those CP could also be spent....etc. Mathematically the break even point for just Grand Strategist is 7 CP at the beginning of the game. If you have that many or more, take that as your warlord trait and it will, on average, give you 3 or more CP during the game. With Kurov's, that break point conservatively goes down to 6 and may go down to 5.

So, using some cookie math, I would say that if, after relics/warlord traits/pre-deployment command points, you have 6 or more CP, it is mathematically better to sacrifice the 3 CP and just take Grand Strategist.

Now you are, of course, also not getting that extra relic and warlord trait, so what's that worth? Up to you. Personally, in most of the knight lists I've drawn up, I start the game with 14-19 CP, then spend 6-7 on relics, so I'm looking at 7-13 CP. That's not even close to making it difficult to decide what I should do, as Kurov's + Grand Strategist (plus Vitas Veritae if I take a BA battalion) means that I recover stupid amounts of command points, and starting with more means that I can use them incredibly liberally (and I do).

TLDR: If I were a knights player, I would generally sacrifice at least 1 warlord trait, even if I had the option to take it. This means that Grand Strategist is generally very much more worthwhile than a single additional relic. And from the handful of games I've play as knights, they are so very very CP hungry. You won't regret having more command points and one less relic or warlord trait IMO

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 raverrn wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
That doesn't sound accurate, and I've not encountered any other person ever suggest that.

It's absolutely how the trait works. GS doesn't give back a secondary set of different CP, or other pseudo method. When you spend a CP you might gain a new one, and there's nothing that says you can't gain another when it's spent, or another or another.

You quoted me but neglected the second half of my post where I explained I understood exactly what you had meant to say in greater detail.

You edited it?

I think the best approach is to present everything in your army as a threat, all at once. Give your opponent lots of options, all of which are bad.

So I’d send warglaives ahead. Use cover if you can, do damage if you can, but don’t worry too much if they die – because that means something else didn’t die.

If I’ve got a Castellan with Cawl’s Wrath then I know my opponent really has to kill it, but if multiple other threats are coming in then they are going to have some hard choices. They can kill the armigers quite easily, but that means taking fire from my Castellan. And meanwhile I’ve also got a couple of other Questoris knights on their way in.

I haven’t prioritised buying meltas for my warglaives, but I wonder if I should. Oddly, they don’t have a rule to let them ignore the penalty for moving and firing the stubbers, meaning that they only hit on 4s. Meltas would hit on 3s. Even when they do hit, stubbers do next to nothing, while meltas might kill something from time to time. But on the other hand I expect my warglaives to spend a lot of their time in combat and/or dead, so I’m not sure there’s much value in sticking guns on them at all.

I’ll be taking my army to heat 1 of the UKGT soon, and haven’t yet managed to get in any practice games with it! The rules for the event say we have to pick our warlord trait and relic and write it on our army list, but we can pick whether to use stuff like Exalted Court before each game. That seems quite useful to me. I’ll only have the single Knight Lance with its +6 CPs, for a total of 9. Here’s the list:

Castellan with 4 missiles (to save points)
Warden with ironhail rocket pod
Errant with Fist
2 Warglaives with Stubbers

The Castellan will be Warlord, and will have Ion Bulwark and Cawl’s Wrath. Then I’ll probably take an extra relic and a bonus warlord trait on the other, so all three are characters. Endless Fury, the Paragon Gauntlet and 2+ armour save all have their appeal as relics. I’m less sure on warlord traits, though if I just want an extra character I could give one of them the trait that gives a CP and a reroll once per game – which is better than nothing. I could potentially take two relics and no extra warlord traits, or even give a both to a single knight – such as Paragon Gauntlet and Seneschal to the Errant and nothing for the Warden, if I face other knights.

One option would be to drop the Ironhail pod and make the Errant into a second Warden. That would probably improve my army a little bit, but I think I like the ironhail pod for taking out mortar squads, biovores etc. I’d be interested in any cnc, though I've decided I'm definitely not bringing a battalion (and to be honest there's no way I'm painting one in ten days!) so no need to point that out.

What house? Remember raven armigers advance and shoot stubbers normally so only when you want to charge does heavy hurt. Though s3 still is meh

 raverrn wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 raverrn wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
That doesn't sound accurate, and I've not encountered any other person ever suggest that.

It's absolutely how the trait works. GS doesn't give back a secondary set of different CP, or other pseudo method. When you spend a CP you might gain a new one, and there's nothing that says you can't gain another when it's spent, or another or another.

You quoted me but neglected the second half of my post where I explained I understood exactly what you had meant to say in greater detail.

You edited it?

Ten minutes before you replied, yes.

It's of little issue. We're on the same page.

tneva82 wrote:
What house? Remember raven armigers advance and shoot stubbers normally so only when you want to charge does heavy hurt. Though s3 still is meh

I'm going with Tanaris - because that's how my existing knights are painted. Part of the justification for going all-knights is that I think the Tanaris bonus is of greatest benefit when applied to lots of knights. Raven seems awesome for a single Castellan, which you'd spam the stratagem on, but otherwise not brilliant. I can live with having my stubbers miss a bit more, especially since I really don't expect them to do much even if they do hit.

I've considered painting my Castellan up as House Raven, to ally with my marines, but since I already had four knights painted as Tanaris, and since Tanaris are pretty good, I think that's the way to go.

Does paint scheme on knights matter that much? If I paint mine as Cadmus, is that what i am going to be stuck with? That feels less punishment for painting vs keeping them grey tide

Typically, no, it doesn't matter.

GW, however, made some rules for their grand tournament or some nonsense about things painted like space marine chapters HAVE to be that chapter, etc, so just buyer beware if you're playing there.

My original knight theme was green & yellow. Not QUITE the questor imperialis theme(some minor differences) but very similar and as that faction didn't tempt and wanted mechanicum anyway to synergy with ad mech allies better decided to alter a bit. Airbrushed the yellow parts(only few armour plates) with red. Need to touch up some silver parts that got reddish but nothing too bad. And bonus the method was same I do airbrushed red anyway. Preshade, yellow, red. Put in darker red than my blood angels.

This way they LOOK more like mechanicum alligned and now I'm pretty sure there's no official house that looks same so I should be safe in any case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:
It's actually not the easiest of questions, but it's one that has to be decided in your list building phase, as you can't typically change warlords from round to round in a tournament event (though from game to game in a friendly setting for play testing purposes, go for it!)

Oh really? Is that usual there? I don't recall attending event where I couldn't change. Default set is supposed to write but if you want to change them before deployment you are free to change it.

Interesting.

tneva82 wrote:
My original knight theme was green & yellow. Not QUITE the questor imperialis theme(some minor differences) but very similar and as that faction didn't tempt and wanted mechanicum anyway to synergy with ad mech allies better decided to alter a bit. Airbrushed the yellow parts(only few armour plates) with red. Need to touch up some silver parts that got reddish but nothing too bad. And bonus the method was same I do airbrushed red anyway. Preshade, yellow, red. Put in darker red than my blood angels.

This way they LOOK more like mechanicum alligned and now I'm pretty sure there's no official house that looks same so I should be safe in any case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:
It's actually not the easiest of questions, but it's one that has to be decided in your list building phase, as you can't typically change warlords from round to round in a tournament event (though from game to game in a friendly setting for play testing purposes, go for it!)

Oh really? Is that usual there? I don't recall attending event where I couldn't change. Default set is supposed to write but if you want to change them before deployment you are free to change it.

Interesting.

I don’t know if there’s a standard tournament structure as such. GW do their own thing entirely, apparently without reference to what anyone else is doing. So for instance they are using eternal war scenarios only. They’ve changed the rules on stratagems like exalted court since last year, as well as dropping from 2k to 1750.

Right now it’s obviously sensible to paint knights as your own scheme, so you can choose what house to play as. I went with Tanaris when they were first released, inspired by the mechanicus book from the 30k novel series, intending them to act as allies for my 30k Imperial fists. I was pretty nervous waiting to see what my rules would be! As it happens I’m pretty happy with 6+ FNP - which is definitely one of the top tier house options.

I'm glad I made my own house. That takes all confusion away, just specify which house I used when I wrote the list, and it's all good.

Changing houses before a match starts depending on your opponents list however, is a bit scummy. Will probably not happen too often though, since you chose your house when building your list, with warlord traits and such.

Oh house changing depending on opponent would be big no-go.

However at least here warlord traits and relics you can change before game so in tournaments I might or might not take relic or trait depending on what I need(for example I might not take landstrider against army that will be coming aggressively toward me anyway!).

It's so common here didn't even think it might not be standard in tournaments.

Yeah in the core rules you choose relics, psychic powers and warlord traits before the battle. It's not part of your list.

A lot of tournaments house rule that your relics/warlord traits must be on your list, not sure why they do this though.

Well the question is whether "before the battle" constitues part of your list building or not which is up for interpretation.

Having it prewritten reduces strategem point rerolls and makes it clear what has what upgrade so noone can go

but the warden had ion bulwalk
No it didnt it had armour of sacred ion the crusader had ion bulwalk

The downside is you lose tactical flexibility. thing is most people dont use it.if I play BA I know which relics im takeing based on my list

Infact other than knights where I might remove Ion Bulwalk against a non shooting army I cant think what I would change

U02dah4 wrote:
Well the question is whether "before the battle" constitues part of your list building or not which is up for interpretation.

Its pretty clear in the core rules:

Immediately before either player starts to deploy their
army, you can roll on the Warlord Trait table here to determine what
Warlord Trait your Warlord has. Alternatively, choose the trait that
most suits your Warlord’s temperament or style of war.

So it is a house rule to make it part of list building.

U02dah4 wrote:


Having it prewritten reduces strategem point rerolls and makes it clear what has what upgrade so noone can go

What you mean by that? Whether you choose them pre tournament or pregame has no real meaning on rerolls

So, one of the biggest things I'm noticing about my knights is they go very well with my leman Russ list... Which was already very strong.

My biggest hurdle with my Russes was moving forward against the tide of my opponents army. Getting a Russ trapped in cc makes it noneffective. A crusader/warden + 2 Warglaives really helps apply forward pressure, while keeping a wall of t7/8 models. Small arms fire is pretty much negated. Add in hawkshrouds ability to overwatch and heroically intervene on top of my Russes ability to over watch on 5 and charging that list is scary.

If I can pick off my opponents anti tank early then I'm golden. My only issue is those pesky thunder hammer models. But that is what my paragon guantlet is for!

 Mushkilla wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Well the question is whether "before the battle" constitues part of your list building or not which is up for interpretation.

Its pretty clear in the core rules:

Immediately before either player starts to deploy their
army, you can roll on the Warlord Trait table here to determine what
Warlord Trait your Warlord has. Alternatively, choose the trait that
most suits your Warlord’s temperament or style of war.

So it is a house rule to make it part of list building.

Not clear

Mustering your Army - listbuilding

Deployment- start of Game

Immediately before deployment - is it list building? Or have we moved beyond its not black and white.

Well do write down army list immediately? Most people i know do it earlier than that

There's no fixed rule - or if there is there's no consensus on how to apply it.

If you're going to an event, the events pack should say what to do. If not, ask the organisers.

If you're playing against friends, ask them. In reality you're probably putting your list together for that game with some idea what they are playing, so it might not make much difference when you pick your traits etc.

Is there anything to stop you using the Exalted Court stratagem to give a knight the Cunning Commander trait, effectively refunding the command point, and getting you the free re-roll?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Is there anything to stop you using the Exalted Court stratagem to give a knight the Cunning Commander trait, effectively refunding the command point, and getting you the free re-roll?

No however thats only true if your only taking that as the single additional trait other wise it costs you 2CP for 1CP and a reroll so your buying a reroll thats locked to that model. Still not exactlly a terrible deal.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Is there anything to stop you using the Exalted Court stratagem to give a knight the Cunning Commander trait, effectively refunding the command point, and getting you the free re-roll?

No, so even if you're not planning on taking a second warlord trait you should always take an Exalted Court Cunning Commander as there's no downside whatsoever.

I find myself reaching for Ion Bulwark and Landstrider though, so I'm not sure if Cunning Commander is really worth it as a third warlord trait. Especially for Guard armies that can have their actual Warlord as a Grand Strategist and just grab Ion Bulwark and Landstrider from stratagems.

With 4++ and Landstrider and other awesome WLTs around, I can't see why you would ever take cunning commander for a single reroll.

Ion bulwark is $$. Or if you have a model with a 4++ (like the styrix) then land strider or a household trait.

Have Renegade and Forgebane so I'm a decent way to a Knight army. Thinking of this for the target list.

Thinking of going for House Hawkshroud

Crusader (Warlord: Ion Bulwark probably)
Rapid-fire battle cannon, Avenger gatling cannon, Stormspear rockets, and Heavy stubber

Gallant (Exalted Court: Landstrider probably)
Reaper chain-sword, Paragon Gauntlet, and Meltagun

Warden
Avenger gatling cannon, Reaper chain-sword, and Heavy stubber
Might get Helm of the Nameless Warrior but might hold off for the CP

2x Warglaives (one with Meltagun one with Heavy stubber)

2x Helverins (what's a Helverin anyway?

Whole list comes to 1997 points.

Anyone like the krast relic, the headsman's mark? +1 (rarely +2) damage on dominus weapons when shooting a heavy sounds nice.

Also it could be nice on a crusader with Gatling cannons, battle cannon and stormspear pod.

Combine either with ion bulwark and you have a scary knight!

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Have Renegade and Forgebane so I'm a decent way to a Knight army. Thinking of this for the target list.

Thinking of going for House Hawkshroud

Crusader (Warlord: Ion Bulwark probably)
Rapid-fire battle cannon, Avenger gatling cannon, Stormspear rockets, and Heavy stubber

Gallant (Exalted Court: Landstrider probably)
Reaper chain-sword, Paragon Gauntlet, and Meltagun

Warden
Avenger gatling cannon, Reaper chain-sword, and Heavy stubber
Might get Helm of the Nameless Warrior but might hold off for the CP

2x Warglaives (one with Meltagun one with Heavy stubber)

2x Helverins (what's a Helverin anyway?

Whole list comes to 1997 points.

I actually like this. 5 drops, flexible, can deal with most targets. Has something that doesn't mind sitting back and camping objectives. Doesn't degrade quickly

Ok so this is the list I'm going with for now.


My question is, would I be better off with grand strategist and kurovs or with a 3rd knight with trait and relic?

 DoomMouse wrote:
Anyone like the krast relic, the headsman's mark? +1 (rarely +2) damage on dominus weapons when shooting a heavy sounds nice.

Also it could be nice on a crusader with Gatling cannons, battle cannon and stormspear pod.

Combine either with ion bulwark and you have a scary knight!

KRAST relic is the secret sauce to the top tier knight lists. That relic pairs very well with knight gallant stomp attacks and the exploding 6s strategem for house krast.