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WarmaHordes has a concept of sideboarding that I think might be nice to have in 40K. Basically, you can show up to an event with two (or three, depending on the event) army lists. Each round, you get to see the opponent's lists and then secretly and simultaneously you each pick one to play.

In WarmaHordes, all of your lists have to be the same faction. For 40K, you might have to adjust that a little bit and say something like "The highest-point-value detachment in each list must have a shared keyword with the highest-point-value detachments on the other lists that is not one of the following.: Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Tyranid".

The idea is, if you have a list that is bad against Guard or Tyranids or whatever, you can have a second list that is more geared for that and you'll know to switch. It's kind of list tailoring, but controlled and formalized so that it's less cheat-y.

There was a rumor that one of the editions (I think it was 7th) would have sideboards. Turned out to be false. However, the psychic phase (including summoning) proved to effectively be one.

In 8th all armies can do something similar with relics and strategems, it’s just that the IK relics have much more of an impact in specializing the knights and you can affect a bigger percentage of your army with them (vs a 200 pt warlord).

I agree that the idea of laying out all your relics and warlord traits prior to starting each game is a good way to adapt to each game (if the event rules allow you to make those kind of changes from game to game).

It'll take a fair bit of practice for players to feel comfortable swapping and changing game to game, but, it'd be a worthwhile thing to pick up.

They let us do this at the UKGT, and I did - to various degrees of success. So you take landstrider against shooty lists but not those that are rushing you. Endless fury most of the time, but occasionally paragon gauntlet or 2+ save. And very often by the end of the game I’d be annoyed with myself for having picked the wrong thing!

I made a printout with common relic spends and buys for my various characters. It filled it out differently based on the opponent. From experience, Landstrider is 100%. Take the Paragon Guantlet versus knights.

Yeah unfortunately sideboarding really only applies to knights, due to the exalted court stratagem being exclusive to This codex, the fact that individual models are so expensive, and just generally having access to a range of good relics and traits (rather than just 1 or 2 that are clearly better than the rest.) A reason brought this up is because many people love to claim that knights are easy to play, and while that true to degree (a new player with knights will beat another new player with just about any other army) stuff like this takes skill. In other words it’s easy to be pretty good with knights, but hard to be very good with them.

On another note I have to say I’m not very impressed with the paragon gauntlet, Its very likely that you will be able kill another knight fully with just a gallents basic fist , so as it has a CC household and a command point re-roll.

The paragon gauntlet is probably more use on a Warden than a Gallant. I really don’t like Gallants, so for me it’s definitely an option to consider as a sideboard option.

One consideration is that there are quite a lot of things out there with 8 wounds exactly, like dreadnoughts and Carnifexes. It’s really good to have a weapon that will kill one of those in a single wounding hit. Even where kicking things might do more wounds on average you might have a better chance of a kill with the gauntlet. So if I see a carnifex-heavy list opposite me I might well choose to give one of my wardens the paragon gauntlet.

Mandragola wrote:
The paragon gauntlet is probably more use on a Warden than a Gallant. I really don’t like Gallants, so for me it’s definitely an option to consider as a sideboard option.

One consideration is that there are quite a lot of things out there with 8 wounds exactly, like dreadnoughts and Carnifexes. It’s really good to have a weapon that will kill one of those in a single wounding hit. Even where kicking things might do more wounds on average you might have a better chance of a kill with the gauntlet. So if I see a carnifex-heavy list opposite me I might well choose to give one of my wardens the paragon gauntlet.

Yeah I can absolutely see the value of the gauntlet on a warden so perhaps I jumped the gun with my anti-gauntlet rant. I guess it’s more so I haven’t been running wardens in general. I like that they are cheaper than crusaders and get access to death grip, but as a whole I just like crusaders more for a couple of reasons. The first is that they get max synergy out of the krast warlord trait and relic. More guns means more shots of 1’s to re-roll. As far as the huntsman relic goes I can very reliably kill any other knight after a single round of shooting and CC since all my shots are at least 3 damages, and that’s just the stubbers! After that I’m charging with 12 S 8 AP -2 d3 +2 damage attack’s, which are hitting on 3s re-rolling. This is long winded-way of saying I really like Krast crusaders, and that’s keeping me from using wardens. Don’t get me wrong I think wardens could be good, i just feel like there are a lot of match ups where the extra gun the crusader gets is worth the points you pay for it over the fist.

With ITC holding onto 2000.points, is there a place for 5-knight lists? You can do a gallant, errant, paladin, and 2 wardens for 1994, or even 4 gallants and an errant for 1811 (if you want a guard battalion or just a bunch of carapace upgrades). The loss of CP is an obvious downside, but adding another 24 T8 3+ wounds to your list seems like it might give you a bit more staying power. Just curious what people’s thoughts are.

 greyknight12 wrote:
4 gallants

Rule of 3

Salt donkey wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
The paragon gauntlet is probably more use on a Warden than a Gallant. I really don’t like Gallants, so for me it’s definitely an option to consider as a sideboard option.

One consideration is that there are quite a lot of things out there with 8 wounds exactly, like dreadnoughts and Carnifexes. It’s really good to have a weapon that will kill one of those in a single wounding hit. Even where kicking things might do more wounds on average you might have a better chance of a kill with the gauntlet. So if I see a carnifex-heavy list opposite me I might well choose to give one of my wardens the paragon gauntlet.

Yeah I can absolutely see the value of the gauntlet on a warden so perhaps I jumped the gun with my anti-gauntlet rant. I guess it’s more so I haven’t been running wardens in general. I like that they are cheaper than crusaders and get access to death grip, but as a whole I just like crusaders more for a couple of reasons. The first is that they get max synergy out of the krast warlord trait and relic. More guns means more shots of 1’s to re-roll. As far as the huntsman relic goes I can very reliably kill any other knight after a single round of shooting and CC since all my shots are at least 3 damages, and that’s just the stubbers! After that I’m charging with 12 S 8 AP -2 d3 +2 damage attack’s, which are hitting on 3s re-rolling. This is long winded-way of saying I really like Krast crusaders, and that’s keeping me from using wardens. Don’t get me wrong I think wardens could be good, i just feel like there are a lot of match ups where the extra gun the crusader gets is worth the points you pay for it over the fist.

Oh yeah crusaders are great, and Krast ones especially so - or at least the first one to use the relic. I think it’s worth having at least one fist in a list though, to death grip people.

I’m looking at a 1750 list featuring two TC crusaders and two wardens with fists. I like the idea of rocking four avengers. The TCs, while not amazing, make sense as I’d want some AT - but more importantly I can’t afford BCs. I could go for three wardens and a RFBC crusader but that seems worse. My guys are Taranis. I think I’d make one of the crusaders my warlord, with 4++ and endless fury.

Running 5 knights at 2k does make sense. I’d probably go for 4 wardens and a Gallant. I’m not sure it’s all that good a list if honest - it somehow manages to have less firepower than my 1750 list. Maybe try 4 knights and a couple of armigers.

Given that one warlord trait and relic needs to be written down for your actual warlord, why would that not be Ion Bulwark?

I'd have thought in a Knights list that every unit you have is a target, so it's not like making a smaller support character the warlord in order to be a little more relaxed where you send a serious fighting character - so having the now even harder to kill thing be the warlord almost works in your favour. Might be the odd match up where it's less useful, but I can't think of many more ubiquitous warlord traits that aren't for more expendable stuff like Gallants.

Some value in having the flexibility to decide which gets the ion bulwark I guess, but if you had to pick one trait that you'd use 80% of the time and 80% on one specific model - seems like that'd be Ion Bulwark on the official warlord.

Though on the topic of sideboard-esque things, I've also been wondering about the value in Freeblade armigers once they were brought up earlier. It's not like they were going to be targets for stratagems anyway - so a pair of Helverins (split between two detachments) both Sworn to a Quest (with some random burdens), seem like they'd add a lot by being fast obj secured units securing your back lines. As could adding Heroic intervention to a Warglaive.

Penniless nobles from another house sworn to your banners to serve as Armigers until they prove themselves worthy enough to be granted a greater class of Knight to return to their house with.

Yes, absolutely. The Warlord should be given Ion Bulwark because it’s great, so you’re always likely to want one of your knights to have it, and because you want to protect your warlord.

So when you have to state your Warlord’s trait and relic go for Ion Bulwark and a suitable relic. Cawl’s Wrath on a Castellan or Endless Fury for a Crusader are both always going to be good.

That reminds me. Rather than going for 5 knights at 2k what I’d do is bring in a Castellan. I’d probably go for a Castellan, two Crusaders and a Warden. I’d consider a Styrix, though probably not actually take it. You can have a Castellan with 4 missiles, a TC crusader with ironstorm pod, a Warden with fist and ironstorm, and either a BC crusader with ironstorm or a Styrix.

The Styrix is a good option for me as a Tanaris player I think. It’s seriously durable, and crucially gets a 5++ in melee. For most other people the Crusader would probably be a better option. And to be honest I don’t like the model all that much, and I’ve got too many knights already really, so I don’t think I’ll bother. The RFBC Crusader is great.

 Drider wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
4 gallants

Rule of 3

yup, Rule of 3 is total BS but it does exist unfortunately

Mandragola wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
The paragon gauntlet is probably more use on a Warden than a Gallant. I really don’t like Gallants, so for me it’s definitely an option to consider as a sideboard option.

One consideration is that there are quite a lot of things out there with 8 wounds exactly, like dreadnoughts and Carnifexes. It’s really good to have a weapon that will kill one of those in a single wounding hit. Even where kicking things might do more wounds on average you might have a better chance of a kill with the gauntlet. So if I see a carnifex-heavy list opposite me I might well choose to give one of my wardens the paragon gauntlet.

Yeah I can absolutely see the value of the gauntlet on a warden so perhaps I jumped the gun with my anti-gauntlet rant. I guess it’s more so I haven’t been running wardens in general. I like that they are cheaper than crusaders and get access to death grip, but as a whole I just like crusaders more for a couple of reasons. The first is that they get max synergy out of the krast warlord trait and relic. More guns means more shots of 1’s to re-roll. As far as the huntsman relic goes I can very reliably kill any other knight after a single round of shooting and CC since all my shots are at least 3 damages, and that’s just the stubbers! After that I’m charging with 12 S 8 AP -2 d3 +2 damage attack’s, which are hitting on 3s re-rolling. This is long winded-way of saying I really like Krast crusaders, and that’s keeping me from using wardens. Don’t get me wrong I think wardens could be good, i just feel like there are a lot of match ups where the extra gun the crusader gets is worth the points you pay for it over the fist.

Oh yeah crusaders are great, and Krast ones especially so - or at least the first one to use the relic. I think it’s worth having at least one fist in a list though, to death grip people.

I’m looking at a 1750 list featuring two TC crusaders and two wardens with fists. I like the idea of rocking four avengers. The TCs, while not amazing, make sense as I’d want some AT - but more importantly I can’t afford BCs. I could go for three wardens and a RFBC crusader but that seems worse. My guys are Taranis. I think I’d make one of the crusaders my warlord, with 4++ and endless fury.

Running 5 knights at 2k does make sense. I’d probably go for 4 wardens and a Gallant. I’m not sure it’s all that good a list if honest - it somehow manages to have less firepower than my 1750 list. Maybe try 4 knights and a couple of armigers.

You could also go with 3 wardens, a preceptor, and 2 armigers for 2k on the nose

I kind of think that with that many Questoris knights, a Gallant with the survival buffs (Ion Bullwark and Sainted Ion), though ideally not your actual warlord.

It's an obvious target that's going to draw a ton of fire on the first turn, so let it. It's not a real distraction carnifex in that letting that thing get to your lines is going to cause serious problems so buffing it's toughness now whilst the rest of your knights focus the enemy AT.

Unbuffed Gallant can still do a lot of damage even if it's not operating in some larger mission (clearing chaff for Valiants etc). So if it actually makes it, there's a role and it's certainly not something to be ignored.

Can you fit something other than a warden (rule of 3)? But if so I think I'd keep the Gallant.

Tastyfish wrote:
Given that one warlord trait and relic needs to be written down for your actual warlord, why would that not be Ion Bulwark?

I'd have thought in a Knights list that every unit you have is a target, so it's not like making a smaller support character the warlord in order to be a little more relaxed where you send a serious fighting character - so having the now even harder to kill thing be the warlord almost works in your favour. Might be the odd match up where it's less useful, but I can't think of many more ubiquitous warlord traits that aren't for more expendable stuff like Gallants.

Some value in having the flexibility to decide which gets the ion bulwark I guess, but if you had to pick one trait that you'd use 80% of the time and 80% on one specific model - seems like that'd be Ion Bulwark on the official warlord.

Though on the topic of sideboard-esque things, I've also been wondering about the value in Freeblade armigers once they were brought up earlier. It's not like they were going to be targets for stratagems anyway - so a pair of Helverins (split between two detachments) both Sworn to a Quest (with some random burdens), seem like they'd add a lot by being fast obj secured units securing your back lines. As could adding Heroic intervention to a Warglaive.

Penniless nobles from another house sworn to your banners to serve as Armigers until they prove themselves worthy enough to be granted a greater class of Knight to return to their house with.

While I absolutely agree that bulwark will be used in 95% of games, you’re actually incorrect in having to write down your warlord trait. As it written in ITC mission pack “Before any dice are rolled, players adjust and define terrain on the board, then both players choose Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers, spend pre-deployment command points, and any additional Relics they will use. These should be written or notated clearly for reference in game” so while you have define who your warlord is throughout a tournament, you have the choice of what trait he gets from game to
game.

I am amused by the idea of a knight swarm.
Two Gallants, three Helverins, and four Warglaives. 2000 on the nose. Split the Gallants across two superheavy detachments with the Helverins and Warglaives filling out the mandatory slots (stick two Warglaives into one squad to side step the rule of 3.)

9 CP before expenditures. 132 wounds of tough 7/8. Could go with more armiger class knights over the two Gallants, but you lose your CP. Might be feasible if you jam in a cheapo guard CP farm battalion, letting you run around 10 or so various armigers.

After several games I’m not sure sideboarding is gonna help, I’ll pretty much always be taking: ion bulwark+sanctuary and armor of sainted ion + landstrider

Since I only run two big knights that seems most efficient

Forgive me, folks, but just checking back in.

Verdict on Cerastus knights being able to use the WL and Relic strat? Still a no go?

Been a little out of the loop for a bit.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Forgive me, folks, but just checking back in.

Verdict on Cerastus knights being able to use the WL and Relic strat? Still a no go?

Been a little out of the loop for a bit.

A Cerastus can be a WL, so there’s that. You have to select one model in each Imperial Knight Detachment to be a character, and that character is eligible to be a Warlord. Once a Warlord, you can give them a trait, and any character can have a Relic (given strats and CP).

SJ

Oh, for sure. I mostly meant the use of the Stratagems, unfortunately.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Oh, for sure. I mostly meant the use of the Stratagems, unfortunately.

I thought they FAQ'd the FW index to give them the right keywords?

It doesn't seem like they did. Exalted court specifically says Questoris or Dominus class, and I don't believe Cerastus Knights have those keywords and I see nothing in the FAQs. Oh well.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It doesn't seem like they did. Exalted court specifically says Questoris or Dominus class, and I don't believe Cerastus Knights have those keywords and I see nothing in the FAQs. Oh well.

All FW Knights have the Imperial Questoris keyword as of the recent FW FAQs. It’s in both their Knight FAQ and their AdMech FAQ, which means the Porphyron is a Questoris, not a Dominus, so they get the 1 CP Rotate Ion Shield strat.

SJ

I think there's a disconnect here.

I'm speaking, very specifically, to the stratagems that allow Knights to become characters, warlord, and gain relics. Those stragems, specifically, are worded in a very specific way to only allow "Questoris Class" and "Dominus Class" models to use them.

FW FAQ absolutely allows FW Knights to use their stratagems, but they are still "Cerastus Class" <Questoris> Knights, by my current understanding. No FAQ has made them Questoris, Dominus, or allow those stratagems to be used on Cerastus chassis.

That's the information I'm looking to clarify.

The strategem shouldn’t be needed unless you have two forgeworld knights.

Again, I totally understand that it shouldn't be needed, but that was never the context of the question.

I shouldn't have to run into a scenario where I run out of gas, but I'd like to know how long my car can go on E before it dies on the side of the road. Lol

All good, folks, I think I answered my own question.

Carry on.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I think there's a disconnect here.

I'm speaking, very specifically, to the stratagems that allow Knights to become characters, warlord, and gain relics. Those stragems, specifically, are worded in a very specific way to only allow "Questoris Class" and "Dominus Class" models to use them.

FW FAQ absolutely allows FW Knights to use their stratagems, but they are still "Cerastus Class" <Questoris> Knights, by my current understanding. No FAQ has made them Questoris, Dominus, or allow those stratagems to be used on Cerastus chassis.

That's the information I'm looking to clarify.

Your correct the exalted court and heirlooms strategums don't work on Cerastus Class

Hawkshroud or Ad Mech?
This question is beginning to haunt me. Hawkshroud means I don't have to camp extra CP for keeping my most damaged knights functional and can instead spend freely on RIS, death grip, that melee buildings strat, extra relics and warlord traits, etc. Ad Mech lets me make my knights house Raven and therefore increase mobility or pick Taranis to have them stand back up when wrecked. I'm not taking any house specific relics or traits so that is irrelevant. It's just a question of what do I choose?

For reference, I plan to run 3ish questoris class knights, probably wardens with stormstrike missiles, with ion bulwark, blessed by the sacristans, endless fury, and the fancy gauntlet. They're supported by random stuff, either a battalion of guard or marines or a slew of armiger (Helverins) class knights.

So which way would you go and why?