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3 CP to have D3 wounds on a 4+ is pretty bad return on CP really.

Yeah being able to spend 2CP to get back up and 1 CP to fight a full wounds with possibly a 4th to reroll the 4+ was good but it was over 50% of my lists starting CP for a game.

Well time to try out a new house hold

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

slobulous wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Hit on a 3, rerolling 1s. Odds are 77.78% of hitting.

Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.

No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.

And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.

Total odds:

56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.

The odds are even higher than this. You are not factoring in Grand Strategist.

It makes the chance of hitting 88.888%. (3+ rerollable)

No your factoring in a non Knights re roll into a comment on the price increases being uncalled for in mono knights.
Without your guard reroll and CP oathbreaker was the correct number of CP, mono knights just got aucker punched because of abuses only IG soup could pull of.

I mean...really the only stratagem that should have gone up in cost was the taranis knight resurrection strat IMO and the Castellan needs to go up in points. The others are unfounded. Order of companions is basically unplayable now for knights players.

Order of Companions doubles the damage a Castellan does. Hell yes its worth 3 CP.
Its worth a lot less for other knights obviously as they don't bring a buttload of random dice weapons.

Hi there, I spend 3 day's working trough all of the previeus comment's (42 pages of it... really). I learned a lot guys. So thank you all.

So... after the FAQ 2 is there anyone still cheering for house taranis? 3CP to get back up, possibly 1 for reroll and than 1 to use it at full BS. House trait is still soilid I think, but stratagem.. nahh.

I'm trying to make a TAC list post FAQ but I am stuggling. I think a lot of you guys are proppably so why not give each other a hand. I had this list in mind.

House Raven

- Castellen, 2 Missilles (Wrath and Ion Bullwark, Warlord)
- Crusader, AVG, TC (Cunning Commander)
- Warden, AVG (Relic)

House Mortan (for strat)

- 2x Helverin

Loyal 32 (only Aquila)

A lot of dakka so should have a decent chance againtst DE and Horde army's. (I think the two most scarry opponent's to knights) But is it enough against another knight list? Can it do enough vs 200+ greenskins? Thought's? Suggestions? Comments?

I think a lot of people are kinda accepting post FAQ that GW has just made it so mono Knights don't work.
In all honesty I expect the Castellan to get a second nerf in the points department. Which it needs but the strategums certainly didn't need to be nerfed.

Also I've never really been sold on the castellan, I feel knights have enough issues with minimal model count without sinking even more points into a single model.
The Castellan works more as an allied knight not so much as part of a knights army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
I think a lot of people are kinda accepting post FAQ that GW has just made it so mono Knights don't work.
In all honesty I expect the Castellan to get a second nerf in the points department. Which it needs but the strategums certainly didn't need to be nerfed.

Also I've never really been sold on the castellan, I feel knights have enough issues with minimal model count without sinking even more points into a single model.
The Castellan works more as an allied knight not so much as part of a knights army.

By this you also mean a knights list including the 2 CC en 3x Infantry squad (AKA the loyal 32) like the one I just posted?

Is this a general feeling most people have? Knights are done and are now only good as ally's? Would very much like to hear If people agree with this.

slobulous wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Hit on a 3, rerolling 1s. Odds are 77.78% of hitting.

Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.

No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.

And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.

Total odds:

56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.

The odds are even higher than this. You are not factoring in Grand Strategist.

It makes the chance of hitting 88.888%. (3+ rerollable)

So now you are factoring in warlord trait that was nerfed and will cost you 1-2 CP to even have, command reroll(which might have been needed elsewhere too) and of course that raven strategem got nerfed as well. You are looking at castellan that will easily burn 10 CP now in a turn with much reduced CP available to begin with.

And still just 50-50. You are pretty much required to bring in IG battallion or two to even fuel all that CP and burned most of that in a turn. That castellan better BE good as it's hogging resources now even more than slamquinus did.

faithonwings wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
I think a lot of people are kinda accepting post FAQ that GW has just made it so mono Knights don't work.
In all honesty I expect the Castellan to get a second nerf in the points department. Which it needs but the strategums certainly didn't need to be nerfed.

Also I've never really been sold on the castellan, I feel knights have enough issues with minimal model count without sinking even more points into a single model.
The Castellan works more as an allied knight not so much as part of a knights army.

By this you also mean a knights list including the 2 CC en 3x Infantry squad (AKA the loyal 32) like the one I just posted?

Is this a general feeling most people have? Knights are done and are now only good as ally's? Would very much like to hear If people agree with this.

I ment an army made exclusively from the Knights codex.

Pre nerf they were competitive but not really a top table army, now they need atleast the 32 though I'm not 100% sold on grand strategist I know it's 6 CP over the game but it costs atleast 2 CP in for a second warlord trait for knight or just straight up costs you a third warlord trait. Its another 1 or 2 CP for a relic so its really only a gain of 2 CP. Additionally I think now with doom and haywire some psykic defence is going to become increasingly key to keeping knights alive as doom and haywire is just a delete button to knights.

Ice_can wrote:

faithonwings wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
I think a lot of people are kinda accepting post FAQ that GW has just made it so mono Knights don't work.
In all honesty I expect the Castellan to get a second nerf in the points department. Which it needs but the strategums certainly didn't need to be nerfed.

Also I've never really been sold on the castellan, I feel knights have enough issues with minimal model count without sinking even more points into a single model.
The Castellan works more as an allied knight not so much as part of a knights army.

By this you also mean a knights list including the 2 CC en 3x Infantry squad (AKA the loyal 32) like the one I just posted?

Is this a general feeling most people have? Knights are done and are now only good as ally's? Would very much like to hear If people agree with this.

I ment an army made exclusively from the Knights codex.

Pre nerf they were competitive but not really a top table army, now they need atleast the 32 though I'm not 100% sold on grand strategist I know it's 6 CP over the game but it costs atleast 2 CP in for a second warlord trait for knight or just straight up costs you a third warlord trait. Its another 1 or 2 CP for a relic so its really only a gain of 2 CP. Additionally I think now with doom and haywire some psykic defence is going to become increasingly key to keeping knights alive as doom and haywire is just a delete button to knights.

I agree on pure knights not being competative, that's why I put the loyal 32 in my list. I recognise the question you have about the grand stratagist might not be worth it. You can only refund 1 CP per battle round. (so that's my turn and my opponent's turn) so having both GS and the Aquila I think is not worth it. I would take at least 2 relics, 2 warlord traits. Taking aa CC with GS those will cost 6 CP total instead of just 2 CP. With no chance to refuell CP but 1 a round I'll take that 4 CP difference. What do you think? Is taking the Aquila still worth it?

I was also tinkering with using AdMech instead of IG. One AdMech chapter has a stratagem on a 4 cancel a physic power. Might be worth it to cancel doom or that chaos power to cancel an invul save. You still have a strat to cancel mortal wounds on a 5+. Don't forget!! Doing 24 wounds with haywire is tough and recuires focusing. So having a 5+++ on one knight might save you'r beacon.

Grand Stratagist is no 6 CP in a realistic scenario. Its more like 3 because the game will be largely decided by the time you get to turn 4.
Considering you'll want atleast 1 warlord trait and relic on your Knights normally GS is barely worth it in my eyes for a mostly Knight list.
If you want a 2nd warlord trait or relic its already not worth it, completely so if you want both.

Now you probably make your warlord a knight and pop 1cp for the aquilla

U02dah4 wrote:
Now you probably make your warlord a knight and pop 1cp for the aquilla

This is what I would do. Only is the Aquilla worth the 1 CP? It'll cost 1 So you need to gain 2 CP from it to get advantage. If you are facing an elite army with only 8 or so CP and the use expensive strats (2 or 3 CP each) then you are out of options to benefit from it very soon. Remeber, the opponents CP cost are irrelevant for how many dice you can roll. It's still only 1 if you'r enemy pops a 3 CP strat.

if your opponent uses 3 stratagems per battle round aquilla is a 70% chance to get a CP.
You need to make 2 CP to get a profit out of it,
so your looking at 3 stratagems per battle round for 3 rounds. to get a good return? or have him use more then 3 stratagems per turn.

Its probably heavily dependent on the army your facing. If they spend their CP on many cheap stratagems or a few expensive ones.
Fortunately you can decide if you buy the Aquilla when you know his army but I suspect it won't be worth it most of the time.

Most tournaments let you choose your extra strategem relics each game so look at your opponents list and then make a judgement call if your opponent has 6 CP its clearly not worth it and if your opponent has 20 it likely is

As to numbers 1.5CP will net you a profit more games than not.
.so I would set the benchmark lower 3 round 1 and 2 across the rest of the game. The likeliihood goes up the more they use. most lists will use atleast that much

faithonwings wrote:
Hi there, I spend 3 day's working trough all of the previeus comment's (42 pages of it... really). I learned a lot guys. So thank you all.

So... after the FAQ 2 is there anyone still cheering for house taranis? 3CP to get back up, possibly 1 for reroll and than 1 to use it at full BS. House trait is still soilid I think, but stratagem.. nahh.

I'm trying to make a TAC list post FAQ but I am stuggling. I think a lot of you guys are proppably so why not give each other a hand. I had this list in mind.

House Raven

- Castellen, 2 Missilles (Wrath and Ion Bullwark, Warlord)
- Crusader, AVG, TC (Cunning Commander)
- Warden, AVG (Relic)

House Mortan (for strat)

- 2x Helverin

Loyal 32 (only Aquila)

A lot of dakka so should have a decent chance againtst DE and Horde army's. (I think the two most scarry opponent's to knights) But is it enough against another knight list? Can it do enough vs 200+ greenskins? Thought's? Suggestions? Comments?

I’m still cheering for House Taranis, but mine was painted that way prior to 8th edition. Still a bit salty about (my opinion) the unnecessary collateral damage from that stupid BA/IG/IK list but what can you do.

The one positive is the more knights get nerfed into the ground the less resistance people have to them for friendly games - which is great. But if you wanted to take your stompy bots to a tournament your not as well off as you once were

 Ideasweasel wrote:

faithonwings wrote:
Hi there, I spend 3 day's working trough all of the previeus comment's (42 pages of it... really). I learned a lot guys. So thank you all.

So... after the FAQ 2 is there anyone still cheering for house taranis? 3CP to get back up, possibly 1 for reroll and than 1 to use it at full BS. House trait is still soilid I think, but stratagem.. nahh.

I'm trying to make a TAC list post FAQ but I am stuggling. I think a lot of you guys are proppably so why not give each other a hand. I had this list in mind.

House Raven

- Castellen, 2 Missilles (Wrath and Ion Bullwark, Warlord)
- Crusader, AVG, TC (Cunning Commander)
- Warden, AVG (Relic)

House Mortan (for strat)

- 2x Helverin

Loyal 32 (only Aquila)

A lot of dakka so should have a decent chance againtst DE and Horde army's. (I think the two most scarry opponent's to knights) But is it enough against another knight list? Can it do enough vs 200+ greenskins? Thought's? Suggestions? Comments?

I’m still cheering for House Taranis, but mine was painted that way prior to 8th edition. Still a bit salty about (my opinion) the unnecessary collateral damage from that stupid BA/IG/IK list but what can you do.

The one positive is the more knights get nerfed into the ground the less resistance people have to them for friendly games - which is great. But if you wanted to take your stompy bots to a tournament your not as well off as you once were

Very interested in you'r experiences post FAQ. When it comes to the strat you need at least 4 CP to get it opperating for another round and a 50% of the time you need a reroll. Do you think the houserule is enough to keep the house? Why? Or do you feel you don't have a choice because the way the are paintend?

My knights aren't painted in one of the 9 house collors. (none of my army's are painted in regular collors) So I can pick any house I want and try out lot's of new stuff. Only downside is that most of the guys at my local store kind of hate them so I don't get to play them as much as I want.

Ah the colour was a tongue in cheek anecdote. If I was in a competitive game i would probably cherry pick the best house for the task.

That being said Taranis 6+FNP does best the higher the volume of knights. I haven’t had a game since the faq but I suspect CP limitations are going to be very rough.

I’m really tempted to try out 5 Gallants and an Armiger. 132 wounds to chew through and with the 6+fnp your probably getting about an entire knights worth back which is fun.

The above would just be a silly list btw and just for a fun game.

Looking at my taranis list which went 60/80 at my last tourney asside from CP regen its only minimally effected and most of that is the loss of CP regen its still a solid list

What did you run U02dah4?

Does anyone have any intel on when we are getting the new forgeworld Acastus class Mechanicum Knight? (previewed Feb 2018)

2 thermal crusaders+ironstorm, 1 errant, 1 warglaive freeblade, coteaz 3acolytes +stormbolters 2 company commanders 3 infantry squads+1 grenade launcher, 3 mortar weapon teams,1 roughriders with plasma

I’m looking at running knights with allies. I’ll be taking 2x Gallants and 2x Helverins for a super heavy detachment, none of the knights are going to be my warlord but instead Guilliman in a super heavy auxiliary detachment and then a spear head detachment of space marines with a Lieutenant, 1x Lascannon squad, 1x Plasma canon squad and a heavy Bolter squad.

So the plan is to use house Mortan for the knights +1 to hit so the gallants thunder strike(paragon gauntlet) still hits on 2+. I will then use CPs to take Ion Bulwark, paragon gauntlet on one knight then armour of the sainted ion and landstrider on the other. This makes both knights at least capable of 4+ invulnerable saves, however depending on opponent can swap to make one a 3+ and rely on the 2+ armour of the other.

Space marines will use salamander tactics which allows me to use a free re-roll to hit and wound roll for when Guilliman aura bible is out of range. Guilliman will deploy directly behind the gallants to prevent being targeted which will allow him to provide his auras for longer ultimately granting the gallants +3” to advance and charge distances and the use of full tilt stratagem will allow at least one 1st turn charge, plus re-roll hits of 1 so the gallants will most likely hit much of the time and wounding most things on 2+. At this point the 2nd gallant could try heroic intervention and Guilliman if he is close enough. Helverins do there best to stay mobile and keep the re-roll from Guilliman if possible and focus on what they can see. Devastators stay back field and provide fire support first turn getting Guillimans re-roll 1s to hit and the lieutants re-roll to wound from turn 2 using the chapter tactics to re-roll.

Overall I believe the list itself to have good synergy, target saturation and hope the deployments and rolls go in its favour.

 Adam_1994 wrote:
I’m looking at running knights with allies. I’ll be taking 2x Gallants and 2x Helverins for a super heavy detachment, none of the knights are going to be my warlord but instead Guilliman in a super heavy auxiliary detachment and then a spear head detachment of space marines with a Lieutenant, 1x Lascannon squad, 1x Plasma canon squad and a heavy Bolter squad.

So the plan is to use house Mortan for the knights +1 to hit so the gallants thunder strike(paragon gauntlet) still hits on 2+. I will then use CPs to take Ion Bulwark, paragon gauntlet on one knight then armour of the sainted ion and landstrider on the other. This makes both knights at least capable of 4+ invulnerable saves, however depending on opponent can swap to make one a 3+ and rely on the 2+ armour of the other.

Space marines will use salamander tactics which allows me to use a free re-roll to hit and wound roll for when Guilliman aura bible is out of range. Guilliman will deploy directly behind the gallants to prevent being targeted which will allow him to provide his auras for longer ultimately granting the gallants +3” to advance and charge distances and the use of full tilt stratagem will allow at least one 1st turn charge, plus re-roll hits of 1 so the gallants will most likely hit much of the time and wounding most things on 2+. At this point the 2nd gallant could try heroic intervention and Guilliman if he is close enough. Helverins do there best to stay mobile and keep the re-roll from Guilliman if possible and focus on what they can see. Devastators stay back field and provide fire support first turn getting Guillimans re-roll 1s to hit and the lieutants re-roll to wound from turn 2 using the chapter tactics to re-roll.

Overall I believe the list itself to have good synergy, target saturation and hope the deployments and rolls go in its favour.

As someone who used Mortan at an event, I’d suggest that you’ll be better off running something else if you are only running 2 Gallants and Helverins. (based on your ideas anyway)

Gallants already hit on 2’s and the Paragon Gauntlet doesn’t have a -1 to hit penalty. As such, you’re either wasting 2CP just to get the flat 8 damage (2 because you're paying for 2 relics), or there is no real point in taking Mortan. In addition, I feel you’ll be using the feet attacks waaaaaaay more than you will be using the normal Gauntlet. As such, the +1 to hit is also going to waste on the 2nd Gallant.

Now, the stratagem does work reasonable well for the Helverins, but, against most flyers you’re going to need to pair it with the +1 to hit strat, so you are hitting on 2’s and re-rolling 1s for BobbyG. The issue here though, is you’re only starting with 10CP and you’re already spending 6 of those on WL traits and Relics for the Knights. Using the combo on 1 Helverin will leave you with 2 CP, and you’ll want to save 1 just in case BobbyG gets killed – so, overall, you’re not really doing much with the final CP, maybe getting Death Grip off once.
BUT, that then means you can’t take advantage of Landstrider, as you won’t have the 2 CP spare to Full Tilt turn 1. (though this then puts you outside of BobbyGs re-rolls, so prob not really worth taking Landstrider).

Personally, I think you should run either Griffith for a base 6 attacks on the Gallants, Cadmus for the re-roll wounds, Krast for re-roll 1’s outside of BobbyGs aura for melee attacks or Taranis for the 6+++. Krast is made a little redundant if you can keep BobbyG within range of the Knights though, and you’ll be wounding most things on 2’s a lot of the time, so Cadmus might be overkill. Griffith makes you more killy, and Taranis makes you more survivable.

Just some thoughts!

Let's talk Preceptors and Armigers.

I took the plunge and bought my Preceptor, and am going to make a list of 1x Preceptor, 2x Helverin, 4x Warglaives with 2x Guard Battalions.

Anyone use Preceptors recently?

With the new Strat giving everything cover t1, going second with Taranis Armigers (6 of them) gives you 72 T7 2+/5++/6+++ wounds, and those are some beefy numbers.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Let's talk Preceptors and Armigers.

I took the plunge and bought my Preceptor, and am going to make a list of 1x Preceptor, 2x Helverin, 4x Warglaives with 2x Guard Battalions.

Anyone use Preceptors recently?

With the new Strat giving everything cover t1, going second with Taranis Armigers (6 of them) gives you 72 T7 2+/5++/6+++ wounds, and those are some beefy numbers.

Not really sure the armigers will benifit massively from being 2+ instead of 3+ turn 1 if you go second. Which I could see a lot of people choosing to do so against your list as your light on long range volume of high AP weapons to make going second still hurt even with the cover bonus.

Armigers are not bad unuts but with only your preceptor I would expect it to be focused down fairly swiftly which does limit the damage potential of the armigers.

For assault based knights, what household do you prefer?

I plan on running a three detachment 2k army

Raven
- Castellean
- Hellverin
- Warglaive

Krast or Terryn or Griffith
- Gallant
- Gallant
- Warglaive

Guard Battalion of the loyal 32

 Ordana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

slobulous wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Hit on a 3, rerolling 1s. Odds are 77.78% of hitting.

Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.

No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.

And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.

Total odds:

56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.

The odds are even higher than this. You are not factoring in Grand Strategist.

It makes the chance of hitting 88.888%. (3+ rerollable)

No your factoring in a non Knights re roll into a comment on the price increases being uncalled for in mono knights.
Without your guard reroll and CP oathbreaker was the correct number of CP, mono knights just got aucker punched because of abuses only IG soup could pull of.

I mean...really the only stratagem that should have gone up in cost was the taranis knight resurrection strat IMO and the Castellan needs to go up in points. The others are unfounded. Order of companions is basically unplayable now for knights players.

Order of Companions doubles the damage a Castellan does. Hell yes its worth 3 CP.
Its worth a lot less for other knights obviously as they don't bring a buttload of random dice weapons.

It certainly helps the castellan the most. Because it's almost always wounding on 2's or 3's with it's 2 big guns. Would have made more sense to nerf the obviously OP cawls wrath to not have 9 str and possibly just cost more for the castellan to play. It is an absolutely useless stratagem for any other knight now.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Let's talk Preceptors and Armigers.

I took the plunge and bought my Preceptor, and am going to make a list of 1x Preceptor, 2x Helverin, 4x Warglaives with 2x Guard Battalions.

Anyone use Preceptors recently?

With the new Strat giving everything cover t1, going second with Taranis Armigers (6 of them) gives you 72 T7 2+/5++/6+++ wounds, and those are some beefy numbers.

Not really sure the armigers will benifit massively from being 2+ instead of 3+ turn 1 if you go second. Which I could see a lot of people choosing to do so against your list as your light on long range volume of high AP weapons to make going second still hurt even with the cover bonus.

Armigers are not bad unuts but with only your preceptor I would expect it to be focused down fairly swiftly which does limit the damage potential of the armigers.

This is why you play house tyranis.

Focus down the perceptor...fine. It comes back - fights at full for 1 CP. Still buffs the rest of my armigers. Plus you can put the helm somewhere else if you want too. To make targeting the armiger buffers even less effective. The smartest thing will always be to shoot the armigers first.

Armigers are always going to start in cover anyways - they obtain it quite easily with their massive base and your own knights obstruct you.

He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.

75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.

Basically all of the above.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.

75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.

It had to go up because 360 points of guard gets you 10 CP for the price of a gallant.
Tyranis became unplayable without Guard as needing 3 CP for a 42% chance of d3 wounds is not viable with knights list CP levels,
Or 4CP for a 63% chance.
It can't comeback if it exploded. Also the 6+ fnp doesn't work on mortal wounds.

So I have a tournament coming up this Sunday, have made some final tweaks to my list but would like some feedback, particularly on the Knights bit with my choice of Relics and Traits.

Guard Battalion

CC w. Power Sword
CC

Infantry w. Mortar
Infantry w. Mortar
Infantry w. Mortar
Infantry

Knight Super-Heavy Detachment
House Hawkshroud

Gallant w. Sanctuary + Fearsome Reputation
Errant (Can't change this one as it's not magentised)
Crusader w. RFBC + Endless Fury + Ion Bulwark


Thoughts?