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About the Knight as character, I believe only 1 (the one made character by Knight Lance) may perform heroic intervention.
The other are character only for the purpose of Trait/Relic (but I will be very happy to be proven wrong).

I believe too that Crusader and Gallant are a little better than the other, and in the end the nerf to 4++ makes room for more balanced threats on the table.

Considering that I play Imperial and not Mechanicus Knight (imho Mechanicus-aligned are more rookie friendly and less punishing towards movement mistake, but Imperial hit faster and harder) my usual choice are:

House Terryn
- Crusader (knight lance - warlord) with Thunder of Voltoris and Blessed by the Sacristan. Even if not Terryn I always pick offensive Trait/Relic, depending on the Household Trait and Stratagem available.
- Gallant with one between 2+ or 4++ or 5++ in close combat (depending on the opponent). If Hawkshorud the Angel' Feather is invaluable as the only way for Imperial Household to counter Smite spam.
- Another Gallant if I need to save point, or a Stiryx/Megaera otherwise (because, even if pricey, it allows to double down on 4++, 5++ in close combat plus a few small bonus like repairing itself of cancel enemy cover... without needing any Relic/Trait).

The remaining point are either for a Space Marine single/double battalion, or for another Knight Lance (this time Mechanicus-aligned for fun) with:
- Preceptor
- double Helverin

That usually put me around 12-19 starting CP without much effort, and the Knight as Warlord save a lot of CP if you wanna go crazy on Traits and Relics (you can effectively give a Trait+Relic to ALL of them for 6CP, for a grand total of 3 Trait + 3 Relic from up to two different Household).


It's interesting to note that all the Quaestoris chassis inevitably die during battle. Usually around the 3°-4° battle round. The nerf to 3++ doesn't seems to have had any meaningful impact from this point of view, but allows easier choices with Rotate Ion Shield.
Since they works as heavy hitter, as roadblock and as distraction the rest of the army can gain advantage in scoring VP (or to position themselves to win the battle in the last few rounds).


I've also found out that Marine are surprisingly useful with Knight (I think more or equal to IG, since I am aggressive I need less meatshield in the backfield and a few Marine can block deep striker too if needed).
They are resilient in cover and able to keep objective towards the end of the battle, once armies are depleted (also due to a smaller footprint and profile)... given that if you have (and you should) taken care of enemy anti-tank.

I think that Knight can be added to almost any other army, and not only IG is a sensible choice to accompany them (except, I don't know, maybe Custodes?).

You simply have to think properly about your general battle plan, what enemy weapon you need to remove, and what you can ignore.

My problem about IG with Knight is that they are exactly the standard anti-horde and anti-tank targets. With Marine I can focus on anti-tank, and almost ignore other weapons, as long as I keep my cover.




For example: last game I was against a Shadowsword, 4 Tank Commander, 6 IG squad and a Ultramarine small battalion with the Beachhead mission. I used the list above with a DA Battalion.
I won by ignoring the SS, clearing the Guard chaff and the Leman Russes first. While he blew up my Knight (none in the first round, 2 in the second, the last in the third) I was scoring point on objectives, and win by VP advantage.
His SS finish the game without being EVER targeted by any of my units.
If I had IG squads instead of Tacticals, his 36 HB shots from SS would have cost me the game.

Horst wrote:

 Fueli wrote:
....

I just took 5th place at a major GT (and got top Imperial player, only Chaos and Xenos above me) with a 3 Krast Crusader, 2 Tank Commander list. My cheesy army of doom - https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1009097-.html

I posted a write up of the list, and how my games went on reddit here https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bl9y2q/40k_gt_battle_report_canadian_tabletop/

Dropping a Crusader for a Gallant is definitely an option, but really what would that 100 extra points buy me? A Wyvern for anti-infantry is about it. I'd rather have the extra firepower from the 3rd Crusader.

I sort of wanted to run Shield Captains behind Gallants, but I guess I should just accept the fact that with Knights they are going to have to be the heavy lifters in the list.I read your report before as I browse that subreddit daily. Guess I'll have to get upgrade sprue to have 3 crusaders then. Congratulations too

Cybtroll wrote:About the Knight as character...

You are absolutely right about knights as characters. The traits and relics are the main thing. To be honest, I wasn't quite sure how do I make them characters but I did some studying and I'm pretty convinced it's good to use those 6 command points. Creates some pretty good combos that way.

About other allies besides guard I think you do make a good point about marines. I don't have too much marines, but that's definitely something to think about. Maybe battalion with scouts and one intercessor squad. Scout bikes could also be useful. Note that I'm thinking about the cheaper options the codex offers as the Knights will be doing the heavy lifting. Then again, Guard offer more bodies and some fantastic utility with mortars, Wyvern with Vigilus detachment and Bullgryns. I feel Custodes are just way too expensive though.

I saw a guy running a list with 3 Gallants and 10 Custodes Bikers at a GT... he went 3-3 though so maybe that's not such a good list. Looked scary though!

As far as Knights as characters... if you're doing 3 Krast Crusaders you really only need to spend 2 CP to get an additional trait and an additional relic. Make your Warlord get First Knight and Headsman's Mark, give one of the others Endless Fury, and give the last Ion Bulwark. If you're against a guy who doesn't have anything the Headsman's Mark helps against, take Sainted Ion armor instead. Really no need to spend 4 more CP for additional relics / traits. If you have a Gallant in there though, then yea you kinda need Landstrider + a Paragon Gauntlet.

 Horst wrote:

 Fueli wrote:
Hey guys

I've acquired two more questoris knights now. I'm late to the party I guess, but I'd like to know what's best 3 questoris knights list? Can soup with anything Imperial really. I've seen couple of 3 crusader lists going around, but I'm more interested in Crusader and two Gallants to have points for more soup ingredients.

Any thoughts on this? Planning to run Krast.

I just took 5th place at a major GT (and got top Imperial player, only Chaos and Xenos above me) with a 3 Krast Crusader, 2 Tank Commander list. My cheesy army of doom - https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1009097-.html

I posted a write up of the list, and how my games went on reddit here https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bl9y2q/40k_gt_battle_report_canadian_tabletop/

Dropping a Crusader for a Gallant is definitely an option, but really what would that 100 extra points buy me? A Wyvern for anti-infantry is about it. I'd rather have the extra firepower from the 3rd Crusader.

Hallo.

I saw your list on BCP last week and thought it was interesting. I did wonder a couple of things, how do you do versus alaitoc -2/3 to hit flyers and have you found the ironstorm missiles to be good?

It’s a nice list and congrats on your recent high placing

I've not tested it vs any Alaitoc flyer lists yet, but I've thought about them a lot.

First off, unless he's within 12" of me I wouldn't even bother shooting at them. He'd have to get close at some point to shoot me since he has a very close range. Once they get close, -1 to hit won't save him from dying. I'd fire one crusader at it, he'd likely declare lighting fast reflexes, and then my other crusaders and russes would kill a different one.

If I get turn 1, I'll shoot at Dark Eldar flyers if he has them, or try to go for other non-flyer targets. If the only targets he has visible are 3 Alaitoc Flyers, 2 Tank Commanders + 2 Crusaders should be able to kill one even with the -2 to hit, after the first crusader baits out the -1 stratagem on one of the others.

If he gets turn 1, he flies close to shoot me, does a good bit of damage to a Knight, and then I return fire and hopefully kill 2 of them from within 12". I'd probably use a Vindicare Assassin against a list like this, because the ability to just force D3 mortals onto one to score the last wound or two would be invaluable.

It would be an interesting fight, I just don't personally know someone with a list like this to fight against, and haven't had any matches with it yet.

I really like the Ironstorms, they help make up for the lack of Mortars in my list by giving me indirect fire. They're great at killing nurlings and mortar teams that sit behind LoS blocking cover and score points.

Ironstorm pods are always well worth it in my opinion. The flat 2 damage that ignores LoS is really good at just picking off units hiding in the backfield. Plus it’s super cheap.

Considering picking up a knight Porphyrion, what’s everyone’s opinions on them?

I just bought one. With the Castellan nerf, I think the Porphy takes it's place as the go-to anti-armor Knight. T9 is effectively -1 to wound vs most common anti-Knight weapons (lascannons, meltas, krak missiles, bright / dark lances, etc), and with a 2+ BS it's downright nasty. Take it as Krast w/ the First Knight trait and the Headsman's Mark.... and it is almost guaranteed to remove any big units from the board in a single salvo.

@Horst. I played a similar list to yours recently and enjoyed it immensely despite the loss. I played it all wrong

@dakka I have a 1000 point tournament coming up and I wanted to bring knights

Anyone got a particularly spicy list for 1000 point level or suggestions?

I was probably thinking of bringing a solo crusader and then guard but open to alternative ideas

Well, If you aren't too fond of the idea of winning and are willing to pass for TFG, 3 Gallant with some spare carapace weapons is a classical shock and ave list.

It's probably more a noobhammer rather than a competitive list, but at 1000 it's unlikely the enemies will be able to destroy them.

Unfortunately you can't bring 3 Gallants to 1000 pts.

Solo crusader + Guard is probably your best bet for a 1000 pt list, I'd do a Krast Crusader w/ headsman's and First Knight, and focus on anti-infantry with the Guard, so like 3x3 mortars, maybe a pair of Hellhounds.

You're right, sorry. In my mind it was still around 322(damned Battlescribe!)

I would try to stay full Knight and use 2/3 Helverin with a Quaestoris/Dominus instead (depending from the models you have).

But I personally don't like very much to ally Guard, so take it for what's worth. Guard is still your better options for CP, but at 1000 you may lose your big boy... and do not now what to do with all the CP.

Castellan plus guard

Hehe, yeah at the moment I’m torn. SHD crusader + Hellverins or solo crusader and guard

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Castellan plus guard

Hehe, yeah at the moment I’m torn. SHD crusader + Hellverins or solo crusader and guard

I can't speak well enough of the Crusader + Helverins from the times I've tried it.

Audustum wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Castellan plus guard

Hehe, yeah at the moment I’m torn. SHD crusader + Hellverins or solo crusader and guard

I can't speak well enough of the Crusader + Helverins from the times I've tried it.

1000 points is an odd amount so not sure how to best build a list. Both strategies could be viable

 Ideasweasel wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Castellan plus guard

Hehe, yeah at the moment I’m torn. SHD crusader + Hellverins or solo crusader and guard

I can't speak well enough of the Crusader + Helverins from the times I've tried it.

1000 points is an odd amount so not sure how to best build a list. Both strategies could be viable

Depends what you want to run. I tune down my Crusader a little, slap on the Rusty 17 and a Custodes Outrider of Jetbikes

That sounds pretty good, I’m Admech and knights mostly with a bit of guard. I don’t have any custodes sadly.

They were an army I toyed with trying but so far haven’t given that a go.

I’m definately leaning toward crusader and guard. Horst’s idea of hellhounds is a good one but I don’t own any sadly

Only armour I have is Just tank commanders and a wyvern. Plenty of troops and mortars though

I’ve got a 1,750 pt tournament happening next week and will be running with some unusual AM support.

Commander, primis psyker, two Infantry squads and two manticores plus a unit of scions.

This gives me CP, screening units, some psychic, decent artillery ignoring LOS and a unit that can deep-strike to nab an objective if needed or kill a back line character.

I then sit a crusader with stormspear pod and thermal cannon, warden and gallant alongside them. A sort of jack of all trades threesome...

Warden is warlord with Ion Bulwark and endless fury, blessed by the sacrisians on the crusaders Gatling gun and armour of the sainted ion on the gallant.

11cp after relics etc. The commander has Kurov’s Aquila for a little farming. In reality, I should have 12-13 points during the game.

The knights get up to mid table and shoot/stomp/hack.

The AM hold the back line and fire rockets at the enemy, the scions pop up to cause trouble and the pskyer can either defend the AM or add some deny the witch to the knights.

Hopefully I can deal with most things although flyers will be a pain. Have to hope the boosted Gatlings can take them down.

Not a mega strong list and my first two turns are crucial but I have enough CP to use Cadian AM stratagems on the Maniticores, rotate ion shields and full tilt plus rerolls.

I'm working out a couple of theoretical 2000 point lists. Two options I'm considering would be the following:

AM Rusty 17 BN
Castellan
Warden (Fist, Ironstorm Missile)
Gallant
Gallant

Or

AM Rusty 17 BN
Crusader (Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm)
Crusader (Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm)
Crusader (Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm)
Warden (Fist, Icarus Autocannon)

I'm thinking of going Krast either way. I really like the mix of melee and shooting bonuses that house offers. What I'm not sure of is whether the Castellan's Anti-Vehicle firepower is strong enough to compensate for the anti-horde firepower that the three Crusaders offer. I'm also concerned with the shorter range that the Crusaders offer (36 inches for most guns)

36 plus 12 move. By then los should be bigger issue on proper board

That 4 Questoris list looks quite spicy

bmsattler wrote:
I'm working out a couple of theoretical 2000 point lists. Two options I'm considering would be the following:

AM Rusty 17 BN
Castellan
Warden (Fist, Ironstorm Missile)
Gallant
Gallant

Or

AM Rusty 17 BN
Crusader (Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm)
Crusader (Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm)
Crusader (Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm)
Warden (Fist, Icarus Autocannon)

I'm thinking of going Krast either way. I really like the mix of melee and shooting bonuses that house offers. What I'm not sure of is whether the Castellan's Anti-Vehicle firepower is strong enough to compensate for the anti-horde firepower that the three Crusaders offer. I'm also concerned with the shorter range that the Crusaders offer (36 inches for most guns)

The shorter range on the Crusaders is realistically only a problem on Hammer and Anvil deployments, against lists with a Castellan or Porphyrion. They will be able to deploy in such a way that turn 1 you cannot bring all firepower to bear on it, and potentially won't have anything in range to shoot at it. On most other maps, 12" move + 36" range guns is plenty.

I like the second list a lot more. Gallants can almost always be prevented from getting a turn 1 charge against important units, and can usually be prevented from getting a turn 2 charge if the player is good at screening, especially since you have almost no screen clearing units. Still, they're great fire magnets, and if they're not dealt with they will win you the game. They're also great vs other Knights players.

With the Warden, I really like the fist on there. I assume it's your plan to take a Paragon Gauntlet vs other Knights players? Only thing it really could use is an Assassin... it might be worth ditching the Warden w/ Autocannon for a plain Gallant to use as a distraction carnifex, and dropping one of the Ironstorm pods, to grab an Assassin.

Has your list changed much Horst from your previous tournament showing. If you have another event will you opt for much of the same?

I played a game recently versus a chaos opponent and got havoc’d into oblivion - I struggled to be out of range of the firepower as he plonked his stuff in the middle and had a lot of anti armour within the 48”(basically covering the board)

My usual household is Taranis and I find that sometimes the extra survivability is nice to have if your stuck going second. But then I really miss the burst damage of Krast.

I also always seem to fail the darkest hour stratagem. And Taranis is a costly house. That’s why I like Krast. Much less CP required.

Yea, my list hasn't changed much. I just took it to a small RTT last weekend, unchanged, and went 3-0. Beat 2 other Knights players and a Tau player. So I'll probably not tweak it at all before my next major, which is in 2 weeks.

Long term though, I'm considering dropping the tank commanders to get in a Graia Battalion with some Dunecrawlers, for more CP. I'm also considering dropping the Tank Commanders and replacing one Crusader with a Porphyrion...

 Horst wrote:
The shorter range on the Crusaders is realistically only a problem on Hammer and Anvil deployments, against lists with a Castellan or Porphyrion. They will be able to deploy in such a way that turn 1 you cannot bring all firepower to bear on it, and potentially won't have anything in range to shoot at it. On most other maps, 12" move + 36" range guns is plenty.

I like the second list a lot more. Gallants can almost always be prevented from getting a turn 1 charge against important units, and can usually be prevented from getting a turn 2 charge if the player is good at screening, especially since you have almost no screen clearing units. Still, they're great fire magnets, and if they're not dealt with they will win you the game. They're also great vs other Knights players.

With the Warden, I really like the fist on there. I assume it's your plan to take a Paragon Gauntlet vs other Knights players? Only thing it really could use is an Assassin... it might be worth ditching the Warden w/ Autocannon for a plain Gallant to use as a distraction carnifex, and dropping one of the Ironstorm pods, to grab an Assassin.

A Castellan or Tau are my primary concerns for wanting over a 36'' range. I am really liking the option of fielding 4x Avenger Gatling Cannon though.

I'm likely taking Krast's 'First Knight' warlord trait along with Endless Fury on my Warlord Crusader. Then Ion Bulwark and Headman's Mark on a second Crusader. I'll finish out with the Paragon Gauntlet on the Warden. I'm not sure that 'Blessed by the Sacristans' on a third Crusader's Avenger would be worth 2 CP or not, but its an option. If I had a Gallant, it would definitely get 'Blessed by the Sacristans' for its feet. Fifteen attacks, hitting on 2+, rerolling misses is a lot of Damage rolls. I can also get a +1 Str with Knight of the Cog strategim to wound other knights on a 3+. I'd be giving up Landstrider to get it though... I see both the Warden and a hypothetical Gallant as being a counter-charge unit against any kind of melee-focused enemy.

I hear you on the Assassins. I do not have the White Dwarf that their rules came out in, nor the models yet. I'm starting over after quitting in 3rd edition and haven't built much of an army yet. I'll probably hold off on the Assassins until their rules become available officially somewhere.

 Horst wrote:
Yea, my list hasn't changed much. I just took it to a small RTT last weekend, unchanged, and went 3-0. Beat 2 other Knights players and a Tau player. So I'll probably not tweak it at all before my next major, which is in 2 weeks.

Long term though, I'm considering dropping the tank commanders to get in a Graia Battalion with some Dunecrawlers, for more CP. I'm also considering dropping the Tank Commanders and replacing one Crusader with a Porphyrion...

Congrats on the 3-0

Thinking of taking neutrons or Icarus for AA? Whoa a Porphyrion? What’s your reasoning behind a Krast Porphyrion?

 Cybtroll wrote:
About the Knight as character, I believe only 1 (the one made character by Knight Lance) may perform heroic intervention.
The other are character only for the purpose of Trait/Relic (but I will be very happy to be proven wrong).

The relic/trait stratagems makes them characters. Character may perform heroic intervene. Do you see ANYWHERE specific exception that normal rules for characters don't apply for those knights? Unless there's some special exception if you are character all the character rules apply.

 Ideasweasel wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Yea, my list hasn't changed much. I just took it to a small RTT last weekend, unchanged, and went 3-0. Beat 2 other Knights players and a Tau player. So I'll probably not tweak it at all before my next major, which is in 2 weeks.

Long term though, I'm considering dropping the tank commanders to get in a Graia Battalion with some Dunecrawlers, for more CP. I'm also considering dropping the Tank Commanders and replacing one Crusader with a Porphyrion...

Congrats on the 3-0

Thinking of taking neutrons or Icarus for AA? Whoa a Porphyrion? What’s your reasoning behind a Krast Porphyrion?

Yea, Icarus crawlers. I'd lose some anti tank, but get better AA, get 5 more CP, be able to use Knights of the Cog, and have better anti psyker.

The Porphyrion is mostly because I just bought the model and am trying to work it into my list.. it looks so cool. 2 crusader and a Porphyrion is certainly better against knights than what I have now, but it would auto lose vs genestealers orks or tau, so it's probably not actually viable. Still, I'll probably use it because it's so freaking cool.

Actually, messing with Battlescribe, I think the best Porphyrion-based list might look something like this:

Battalion of Catachan Guard

HQ
Tank Commander (3x Heavy Bolters, Battle Cannon)
Tank Commander (3x Heavy Bolters, Battle Cannon)

Troops
10 man Infantry Squad
10 man Infantry Squad
10 man Infantry Squad

Heavy Support
3 Mortars HWS
3 Mortars HWS

Krast Knights Super Heavies
Porphyrion (Warlord, First Knight + Headsman's Mark)
Helverin
Helverin

Assassin Vanguard
Culexus
Eversor
Eversor

I'll have to test it out. Definitely need to use it in games, even if it's not the best model out there for the game!

It looks kinda scary, but everything in that list other than the assassin's will fold under melee. I'm just not seeing how you would have enough firepower to avoid getting chased into a corner and beat down in melee.

Yea, someone on reddit suggested replacing the Russes with Punishers, which I think is a great idea. Would certainly help keep hordes off me, and the Porphyrion should be more than enough anti-tank.