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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Frazzled wrote:


EDIT: New political topic. Doxing. What think?
Splinter News Doxed Stephen Miller, and Twitter Tried to Stop It

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/splinter-news-doxed-stephen-miller-and-twitter-had-no-choice-but-to-stop-it.html


As an employee of the President's administration with the ability to advocate for policy decisions there should be a way for the public to provide feedback/reactions to the policies he advocates. There should have already been a publically posted office number/email address for Miller that the public could use to submit feedback. Intruding into a government employee's personal life to harass/terrorize them in order to force them to adopt positions you approve of is not the correct way to govern a country. Putting unelected government employees in positions of powerful authority/influence while making them immune to any feedback/pushback from the people on whose behalf they are working and who are impacted by the policies they put into practice is not the correct way to run a country either. Transparency and accountability in governance is a good thing.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in us
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MN (Currently in WY)

 Vaktathi wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Welp, it has just come down that the Internet is no longer exempt from sales tax.

How this unfolds will be...interesting. Compliance is going to be almost impossible for many retailers. This may be the great economic gakstorm of our time.


Suuuuuuuuuuper glad I live in a state with no sales tax. Ill eat that income tax all day long, but wont have to worry about this


I think it may end up forcing states to lower sales taxes to compete for online sales.

I'm sure its more complex that how I'm about to explain, but I feel States with high sales tax will lose out to the frugal online shopper who shops around online vendor sales tax rates. It probably won't effect small sales, (well I wouldn't care at least for a few dollars here and there) but when you get to big ticket items, some of those 6+ % sales taxes most definitely give folks pause when another vendor has sales tax rate of 0% to anything less.

Will be interesting to see how it goes from here and how states will react.

edit: As a brick and mortar store, I tentatively feel like its a win for me, but I'm in a state with 6% sales tax. My main industry competitor (Revzilla) already charges sales tax, so it might be a wash.
from my understanding the vendors locations is totally irrelevant, only the purchasers location. So, if im understanding the ruling right, if I buy from your webstore coming from Oregon, I wont have to pay sales tax and you wont have to charge it because my state doesnt have it, but if your next online customer lives in Los Angeles, youll have to charge the 9.25% sales tax and then remit the 7.25% to the CA treasury and the 2% to LA yourself, while the local walk in cutsomer pay your local 6%.

As a brick and mortar, if your primary customers were local, it should be a big win for you. If your primary sales channel was online, it will likely hurt a lot.


Wow, talk about odious regulation causing business hardships as they figure out what states and counties to pay what tax amounts and what quantities on a quarterly basis.

I expect our congress to take swift action on this......

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Rosebuddy wrote:

The fact of the matter is that the US ruling the world isn't something I want


Well, we're not going anywhere! LOL oh the frustration you must be going through. . .

 Frazzled wrote:

Good luck getting the media to answer that question.

Elian Gonzalez was separated at gunpoint from his family.


Oh come on. His father was in Cuba and his extended relatives wouldn't return him. The guy holding Elian wasn't even related to him. Sucks his mom died but the kid belonged with his father. End of story. Politicians, media, and randoms should have stayed out of it.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 18:41:22


 
   
Made in us
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North Carolina

 nels1031 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
from my understanding the vendors locations is totally irrelevant, only the purchasers location.


That makes a huge difference.

Still may be a catalyst to reduce or at least standardize(hopefully on the lower end) sales tax throughout states?

May be a big hassle in the short term then, until the kinks are worked out. I'd have to read up on it more, I was just reading headlines on my feed at work.


I don't think we'll see any real pressure to lower state sales taxes. If the state you live in has an X% sales tax then you're now paying that X% on any purchase you make, be it brick and mortar within your state or online. It's still advantageous to the people in your state to find the best price for whatever they want to purchase they'll just be paying sales tax no matter whom they purchase from. The only pressure to reduce sales tax in your state would be if the sales tax % is so onerous that it is causing the residents of your state to make fewer purchases. If your state hasn't felt enough pressure from the in state business to lower the sales tax % already I don't see why this ruling would add any more pressure to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Welp, it has just come down that the Internet is no longer exempt from sales tax.

How this unfolds will be...interesting. Compliance is going to be almost impossible for many retailers. This may be the great economic gakstorm of our time.


Suuuuuuuuuuper glad I live in a state with no sales tax. Ill eat that income tax all day long, but wont have to worry about this


I think it may end up forcing states to lower sales taxes to compete for online sales.

I'm sure its more complex that how I'm about to explain, but I feel States with high sales tax will lose out to the frugal online shopper who shops around online vendor sales tax rates. It probably won't effect small sales, (well I wouldn't care at least for a few dollars here and there) but when you get to big ticket items, some of those 6+ % sales taxes most definitely give folks pause when another vendor has sales tax rate of 0% to anything less.

Will be interesting to see how it goes from here and how states will react.

edit: As a brick and mortar store, I tentatively feel like its a win for me, but I'm in a state with 6% sales tax. My main industry competitor (Revzilla) already charges sales tax, so it might be a wash.
from my understanding the vendors locations is totally irrelevant, only the purchasers location. So, if im understanding the ruling right, if I buy from your webstore coming from Oregon, I wont have to pay sales tax and you wont have to charge it because my state doesnt have it, but if your next online customer lives in Los Angeles, youll have to charge the 9.25% sales tax and then remit the 7.25% to the CA treasury and the 2% to LA yourself, while the local walk in cutsomer pay your local 6%.

As a brick and mortar, if your primary customers were local, it should be a big win for you. If your primary sales channel was online, it will likely hurt a lot.


Wow, talk about odious regulation causing business hardships as they figure out what states and counties to pay what tax amounts and what quantities on a quarterly basis.

I expect our congress to take swift action on this......


I expect enterprising companies or ones with massive resources like Visa and other CC companies, to quickly produce software that takes care of that issue for business. State sales tax %s don't change frequently and the information is publically available it shouldn't be hard to sort it out. I don't see how Congress can prevent State governments from collecting State sales taxes from purchases made by State residents. Granted, the interstate commerce clause has already been stretched and abused to absurd degrees but I don't see how it can be used to justify the Federal government prohibiting State governments from taxing purchases made by residents of their respective States.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/21 18:51:08


Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
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 Easy E wrote:

Wow, talk about odious regulation causing business hardships as they figure out what states and counties to pay what tax amounts and what quantities on a quarterly basis.

I expect our congress to take swift action on this......


I've paid local tax for things I have bought online before. What is crazy is when my state sent me a crazy letter a couple of years ago saying they knew I bought patio furniture online from out of state that was shipped to me by truck, but tax hadn't been paid on it, so I owed them, and if I couldn't provide a receipt, they would 'estimate' the value and charge me that. I called them and went through the roof. Item was just a bench for $350 but it was the estimate they would come up with that blew my stack. I didn't have the receipt by then either. And of course if I didn't pay it, there would be penalties added. I think they actually wanted to add a penalty anyway but I made so much noise I guess they decided to let it go if I just paid the tax that was owed. I did get the order info from the site I ordered from and sent all that to them. By the time it was all done, I am sure it cost the tax payer far more than they got.

To this day I still have no idea how they found out about it. They wouldn't tell me. I guess maybe they had to show a list of items they were carrying at a weigh station or something. We don't stop vehicles transporting goods over state lines so the only place I can see that happening is at a place like that.
   
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MN (Currently in WY)

I was thinking more about county and local sales tax changes. The US is a quilt of slaes taxes rates that can be a major pain to process and pay for a merchant.

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On moon miranda.

 Frazzled wrote:
New political topic. Doxing. What think?
Splinter News Doxed Stephen Miller, and Twitter Tried to Stop It

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/splinter-news-doxed-stephen-miller-and-twitter-had-no-choice-but-to-stop-it.html
In this particular context, I'm of two minds.

First is that I'm generally not a fan of doxing for a multitude of reasons.

On the other hand, Miller is a public (and deliberately politically belligerent) figure on the public payroll, with a major role in policy and decisionmaking, in particular one that is at the forefront of an exceptionally toxic topic, in an administration that is renknowned for its lack of meaningful communication and insulated/cut itself off from direct public feedback. There is an issue there. I dont think doxing is the appropriate response, and it's certainly not going to change Millers mind about anything, but it is an understandable reaction in that light.


Leaking of a cell phone # is also extremely mild as far as doxing goes, and is something that anyone in his position should be prepared to ditch at a moments notice (as the number may be leaked by accident too) and thus the damage is probably limited to hurt pride and a couple hours of hassle changing numbers, not anything I'd lose sleep over.

Twitter's reaction is...interesting, suspending people who retweeted the article without directly referencing the phone number feels rather heavy handed, but theyre also just 12 hours, probably do those people some good


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 Easy E wrote:
I was thinking more about county and local sales tax changes. The US is a quilt of slaes taxes rates that can be a major pain to process and pay for a merchant.


Not just that, but all the different directions the money transfers have to do through to. Not sure where that money sits until that is done. In Escrow? Does it go out immediately? Are the companies collecting interest on it if it sits for a bit? etc etc.
   
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North Carolina

 KTG17 wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
I was thinking more about county and local sales tax changes. The US is a quilt of slaes taxes rates that can be a major pain to process and pay for a merchant.


Not just that, but all the different directions the money transfers have to do through to. Not sure where that money sits until that is done. In Escrow? Does it go out immediately? Are the companies collecting interest on it if it sits for a bit? etc etc.


The taxes would be handled the same way local state sales taxes are collected. This ruling only affects people who are already paying sales taxes so there's an existing system/procedure in place for this. This should be handled with a software update to whatever system sellers are using for online sales of their products.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
On the other hand, Miller is a public (and deliberately politically belligerent) figure on the public payroll, with a major role in policy and decisionmaking, in particular one that is at the forefront of an exceptionally toxic topic, in an administration that is renknowned for its lack of meaningful communication and insulated/cut itself off from direct public feedback. There is an issue there. I dont think doxing is the appropriate response, and it's certainly not going to change Millers mind about anything, but it is an understandable reaction in that light.

Leaking of a cell phone # is also extremely mild as far as doxing goes, and is something that anyone in his position should be prepared to ditch at a moments notice (as the number may be leaked by accident too) and thus the damage is probably limited to hurt pride and a couple hours of hassle changing numbers, not anything I'd lose sleep over.

Twitter's reaction is...interesting, suspending people who retweeted the article without directly referencing the phone number feels rather heavy handed, but theyre also just 12 hours, probably do those people some good



Well, they should have sent out his office number instead. That would have been far more appropriate.

As far as twitter, if the retweet lead to the number itself which it seems to, then might as well suspend, regardless if their own tweet mentioned it was in it.

But it does make me wonder what happens one day when this country splits even further apart and peeps within twitter start cascading deletes or suspensions over tweet they don't like. I think Reddit was busted doing something similar. Or at least editing posts or something.

I am typically a hard core fan of freedom of speech, but at the same time I think a line is crossed invading the personal area of someone's life, even if a public figure. I can bitch about someone, but I have no right to harass him, which is what I am hoping happens posting his number everywhere.
   
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On moon miranda.

 KTG17 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
On the other hand, Miller is a public (and deliberately politically belligerent) figure on the public payroll, with a major role in policy and decisionmaking, in particular one that is at the forefront of an exceptionally toxic topic, in an administration that is renknowned for its lack of meaningful communication and insulated/cut itself off from direct public feedback. There is an issue there. I dont think doxing is the appropriate response, and it's certainly not going to change Millers mind about anything, but it is an understandable reaction in that light.

Leaking of a cell phone # is also extremely mild as far as doxing goes, and is something that anyone in his position should be prepared to ditch at a moments notice (as the number may be leaked by accident too) and thus the damage is probably limited to hurt pride and a couple hours of hassle changing numbers, not anything I'd lose sleep over.

Twitter's reaction is...interesting, suspending people who retweeted the article without directly referencing the phone number feels rather heavy handed, but theyre also just 12 hours, probably do those people some good



Well, they should have sent out his office number instead. That would have been far more appropriate.
I dont believe such is publicly available, I think that was part of the drive to release it.



As far as twitter, if the retweet lead to the number itself which it seems to, then might as well suspend, regardless if their own tweet mentioned it was in it.

But it does make me wonder what happens one day when this country splits even further apart and peeps within twitter start cascading deletes or suspensions over tweet they don't like. I think Reddit was busted doing something similar. Or at least editing posts or something.

I am typically a hard core fan of freedom of speech, but at the same time I think a line is crossed invading the personal area of someone's life, even if a public figure. I can bitch about someone, but I have no right to harass him, which is what I am hoping happens posting his number everywhere.
For the most part I dont disagree, my caveats primarily come frm the fact that Miller (and this administration as a whole) has otherwise shut out all public feedback mechanisms and that the damage is minor in the grand scheme of things to Miller personally and something Miller should easily have a ready plan in place for.

More ironically however, as the original Splinter article itself notes, Miller's boss Trump did literally the same exact thing to Lindsey Graham and Jorge Ramos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 19:19:46


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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How awesome it would be for Twitter to suspend Trumps account for 12 hours then lol.

Wait did that happen? God I would love to be the employee who pushed that button.
   
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 KTG17 wrote:
How awesome it would be for Twitter to suspend Trumps account for 12 hours then lol.

Wait did that happen? God I would love to be the employee who pushed that button.


Didn't that happen though? I have a vague recollection, but I could be wrong.

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 Frazzled wrote:
EDIT: New political topic. Doxing. What think?


I think it's... kind of a tricky answer.


Holding protests outside of someone's office is definitely OK, it's a public office and the people have a right to petition their grievances.

Holding protests outside of someone's home seems gakky.

Calling their office phone is OK, it's a public office and the people have a right to petition their grievances.

Calling their personal cell phone seems gakky.

Protesting at a funeral is always 100% gakky no matter what the circumstances.

Organizing a protest at a public location, like a Mexican restaurant? I'm not sure. It seems sort of crappy (certainly to the other people trying to eat in peace and the guys who own the restaurant!)

But what if it was a politician doing a book signing, for example? Clearly protests outside the bookstore* are OK. What about if it was a politician giving a speech to a private college? Clearly protests at the college are OK*. So what makes a Mexican restaurant different? Probably nothing, I guess.

*up until the point protesting becomes trespassing on private property, lets stipulate.


 Vaktathi wrote:
More ironically however, as the original Splinter article itself notes, Miller's boss Trump did literally the same exact thing to Lindsey Graham and Jorge Ramos.


Yes, I think that's a fair point. By himself releasing the private phone numbers of his political opponents, I think Trump has endorsed this as a valid action and has voluntarily removed himself somewhat from the ordinary umbrella of decency, shall we say.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/21 19:39:03


 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
EDIT: New political topic. Doxing. What think?


I think it's... kind of a tricky answer.


Holding protests outside of someone's office is definitely OK, it's a public office and the people have a right to petition their grievances.

Holding protests outside of someone's home seems gakky.

Calling their office phone is OK, it's a public office and the people have a right to petition their grievances.

Calling their personal cell phone seems gakky.

Protesting at a funeral is always 100% gakky no matter what the circumstances.

Organizing a protest at a public location, like a Mexican restaurant? I'm not sure. It seems sort of crappy (certainly to the other people trying to eat in peace and the guys who own the restaurant!)

But what if it was a politician doing a book signing, for example? Clearly protests outside the bookstore* are OK. What about if it was a politician giving a speech to a private college? Clearly protests at the college are OK*. So what makes a Mexican restaurant different? Probably nothing, I guess.

*up until the point protesting becomes trespassing on private property, lets stipulate.


 Vaktathi wrote:
More ironically however, as the original Splinter article itself notes, Miller's boss Trump did literally the same exact thing to Lindsey Graham and Jorge Ramos.


Yes, I think that's a fair point. By himself releasing the private phone numbers of his political opponents, I think Trump has endorsed this as a valid action and has voluntarily removed himself somewhat from the ordinary umbrella of decency, shall we say.
Eating at a restaurant isn't political. People protesting the content of a book do so at the signing, people protesting the content of a speech do so at the venue, people protesting the content of a meal do so at the restaurant.

As for the latter, Trump doing it doesn't make it OK, or a valid political tactic. That road of reasoning goes nowhere good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 20:09:29


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SoCal

I still don't get how this new tax law is different from Use Tax. Weren't we already responsible for paying our local sales taxes on everything we purchased from out of state?

   
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On moon miranda.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I still don't get how this new tax law is different from Use Tax. Weren't we already responsible for paying our local sales taxes on everything we purchased from out of state?
strictly speaking, yes. In practice however...never happened.

The big thing is that it shifts the burden of charging, collecting, and paying the tax from the consumer to the business doing the selling, where the State can actually attempt to collect it far easier, rather than trying to do the impossible and chase down and track every individual citizen's net purchases.

It will be interesting to see how the execution here unfolds.


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There are times when I wish you could set people to Ignore - but only on specific threads.

There are people that make fine, rational posts on nearly every other topic - but drop them into US Politics and they start frothing at the mouth and avoiding water.

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
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 TheAuldGrump wrote:
There are times when I wish you could set people to Ignore - but only on specific threads.

There are people that make fine, rational posts on nearly every other topic - but drop them into US Politics and they start frothing at the mouth and avoiding water.

The Auld Grump


Thanks Obama!*

*Remember in the real world i'd invite all you basyerds to a fajita barbecue and boozefest. Then I would show you the minus I have that are older than your parents. Then we would shoot guns. Lots of guns! So it's all good.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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 Frazzled wrote:
 TheAuldGrump wrote:
There are times when I wish you could set people to Ignore - but only on specific threads.

There are people that make fine, rational posts on nearly every other topic - but drop them into US Politics and they start frothing at the mouth and avoiding water.

The Auld Grump


Thanks Obama!*

*Remember in the real world i'd invite all you basyerds to a fajita barbecue and boozefest. Then I would show you the minus I have that are older than your parents. Then we would shoot guns. Lots of guns! So it's all good.

I have minifigs that date back to '74.... But were in production well before.

The Auld Grump - oddly, it wasn't the dachshund that I was accusing of rabies.... *EDIT* To be clear, people are just as prone to hydrophobia as dogs, and have much the same symptoms. I think raccoons are actually the most common courier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 00:40:03


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
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 Frazzled wrote:

No. We can avoid war by returning our forces home, eliminating military support treaties with every country on the planet, and returning to just being a commercial power.

The current system only benefits the wealthy who have given up any pretense of caring. Communism is dead. We did our part.

China was strong before the US existed, as did its hegemonic aspirations. It will be the same after the US.
Same for Russia.

No need for us to be involved any more. The people who think we should be are the wealthy who benefit from it. Theirs sons and daughters haven't been in a war since forever so there is no downside for them.


You know Frazz, if people hadn't made these almost exact arguments (switch Communism with Germany) after World War 1, there might not have been a World War 2.

Hell, people were so eager to do exactly this they gave up Czechoslovakia. You do remember how that turned out, right?

Isolationism as an effective policy ended either when Germany rolled into Poland, or Japan flew into Hawaii. Take your pick.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 00:44:35



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I laughed so hard I cried. For real. The last line just did it for me. Thank you for sharing this.
   
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 Frazzled wrote:
As a foreigner, you bear none of the burden, so whatevs Bro.
Can you drop this gak. Hpnestly

Lets see the EU do it. You can't even defend yourself from Russia.

Wrong in every way. The Russian military is a pile of gak. EU members vs Russian Federation will end up in the EU's favor every time. We help protect them because it's in our interest. And you refuse to understand this.

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 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
As a foreigner, you bear none of the burden, so whatevs Bro.
Can you drop this gak. Hpnestly

Lets see the EU do it. You can't even defend yourself from Russia.

Wrong in every way. The Russian military is a pile of gak. EU members vs Russian Federation will end up in the EU's favor every time. We help protect them because it's in our interest. And you refuse to understand this.

The Dutch military does not even have enough funds to buy ammunition for training exercises. They can't sustain operations involving a few hundred soldiers for more than a few years. A lot of other European militaries aren't in better shape, not to mention that even the militaries of big powers like France and Germany are very small, pretty much hollowed out since the end of the Cold War by constant budget cuts. Militarily, Europe is a wet noodle that hasn't been able to accomplish anything without US support. Russia's military has seen better days as well, but it is united, larger, better equipped, more experienced and at much higher readiness than European militaries are. Not to mention that Russia is very actively building up its military strength, whereas European nations are largely neglecting their defense. Basically, Russia may be in bad shape, but Europe is in even worse shape. Therefore, the US' military presence in Europe is absolutely essential to deterring Russia. The fear of the US response if Russia were to kill American soldiers in its invasion of the Baltic states is what keeps Russia dormant. Without US presence, Russian irredentism will have free reign in Eastern Europe. The people of the Baltic states are very willing to defend their home, but they are massively outgunned and outnumbered, and Western Europe is of little help. They simply do not have much in the way of military capability. An American presence in Eastern Europe is absolutely essential for long-term peace and stability in Europe. And it brings a lot more than just military benefits. If the US wants to keep its number one spot in the world, it needs to maintain its military presence across the world. And yes, I am saying this despite being Russian. I don't want any more post-Soviet conflicts in Europe, and the American military is key to that. It is important that the American people know this.

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 Frazzled wrote:
As a foreigner, you bear none of the burden, so whatevs Bro.

Lets see the EU do it. You can't even defend yourself from Russia.


Well. Good thing we don't have to defend against Russian army. Frankly I would be more affraid of American army than Russian army. And anyway not like America would help Europe against Russia anyway.

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Literally the reason why the Americans have a fleet in the Mediterranean and bases in Germany and other European countries. To stop the Russians from doing anything untoward,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 06:55:18


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tneva82 wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
As a foreigner, you bear none of the burden, so whatevs Bro.

Lets see the EU do it. You can't even defend yourself from Russia.


Well. Good thing we don't have to defend against Russian army. Frankly I would be more affraid of American army than Russian army. And anyway not like America would help Europe against Russia anyway.


Why would you even consider that, The US has zero interest in invading Finland, it literally offers us nothing,it is neither friend nor enemy. Of the two of us, only the Russians have ever occupied or invaded Finland. The only time in history we were ever really involved in the same war, Finland was an axis power and actively sided with the nazis against our Russian ally. If they ever felt the need, Russia could easily overwhelm the gutted European armies, though I suspect the Poles would fight like lions. And honestly with the relations the way they are now, I hope we wouldn't interfere if the Russians did decide they had had enough of the EU's prattling on.
   
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 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
As a foreigner, you bear none of the burden, so whatevs Bro.
Can you drop this gak. Hpnestly

Lets see the EU do it. You can't even defend yourself from Russia.

Wrong in every way. The Russian military is a pile of gak. EU members vs Russian Federation will end up in the EU's favor every time. We help protect them because it's in our interest. And you refuse to understand this.

The Dutch military does not even have enough funds to buy ammunition for training exercises. They can't sustain operations involving a few hundred soldiers for more than a few years. A lot of other European militaries aren't in better shape, not to mention that even the militaries of big powers like France and Germany are very small, pretty much hollowed out since the end of the Cold War by constant budget cuts. Militarily, Europe is a wet noodle that hasn't been able to accomplish anything without US support. Russia's military has seen better days as well, but it is united, larger, better equipped, more experienced and at much higher readiness than European militaries are. Not to mention that Russia is very actively building up its military strength, whereas European nations are largely neglecting their defense. Basically, Russia may be in bad shape, but Europe is in even worse shape.
I would heavily disagree. Versus one country sure they spend more. But taking only two counties (UK and DE) they spend 20b more than Russia does on the military. That's just the UK and Germany. France spends only 12b less than Russia. Combined the EU (and only countries in the EU) spends $605.22b on defense. *Ten times* that of Russia. That shiny new T-14 (which western armies had counters for within the year)? They've managed to build less than 30. America has roughly 1

Hell Russia assumes it will lose the air war to the point they have put more into ground based anti-air than any other western army. The Russian military would be bodied by the EU. The issue is that both sides have nukes and millions of civilians would be killed.


Therefore, the US' military presence in Europe is absolutely essential to deterring Russia. The fear of the US response if Russia were to kill American soldiers in its invasion of the Baltic states is what keeps Russia dormant. Without US presence, Russian irredentism will have free reign in Eastern Europe. The people of the Baltic states are very willing to defend their home, but they are massively outgunned and outnumbered, and Western Europe is of little help. They simply do not have much in the way of military capability. An American presence in Eastern Europe is absolutely essential for long-term peace and stability in Europe. And it brings a lot more than just military benefits. If the US wants to keep its number one spot in the world, it needs to maintain its military presence across the world. And yes, I am saying this despite being Russian. I don't want any more post-Soviet conflicts in Europe, and the American military is key to that. It is important that the American people know this.

Yes, but not to the degree you say. Europe can easily take care of it's self (and we certainly would see more military spending from Europe if we did pull out), but it's in our best interest in political, defense, and economic, to make sure nothing happens in Europe.

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