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 Larks wrote:

 Gogsnik wrote:
Bought a few bits and pieces and my local GW today, but no novels and the staffer asked, "no books today?" and I told him I was saving up for the Ork Codex and his reply was, "well, you've got a few months to wait for that."

Orktober being a possible month of new ork releases sounds like something GW would do and it's been quite a while since the orks took over White Dwarf so, I would love to see that again. I guess we'll see, eventually...

What I worry about is that we're waiting all this time just for a lame pun. "Hey fans, it's Orktober! Here's your codex and datacards!"

I am almost sure that its going to be an Orktober release, whether its the codex or new minis I don't know. But at this point we are going to be one of the last codex's written so it had better not be a rush job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, is anyone else sad that our "Tactics" discussions basically finished about a year ago? "Take boyz, or don't compete in a tournament"

SemperMortis wrote:

Also, is anyone else sad that our "Tactics" discussions basically finished about a year ago? "Take boyz, or don't compete in a tournament"

Yep. I'm more annoyed it seems to always boil down to list and math discussions over what to actually do on the table.

Orks/Ork discussions were the only motivation I had for joining this forum.

 warhead01 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Also, is anyone else sad that our "Tactics" discussions basically finished about a year ago? "Take boyz, or don't compete in a tournament"

Yep. I'm more annoyed it seems to always boil down to list and math discussions over what to actually do on the table.

Orks/Ork discussions were the only motivation I had for joining this forum.

Again, that is due to the fact that our only real option is boyz, fast boyz and sneaky boyz....ohh and Mek gunz unless your opponent has a -1+ to hit. So what tactics are there? Hide your boyz from LOS, and then assault. theres positioning and what not to think about but that is all EXTREMELY linked to the actual make up of hte table in each game so its just to unpredictable.

 Larks wrote:

 Gogsnik wrote:
Bought a few bits and pieces and my local GW today, but no novels and the staffer asked, "no books today?" and I told him I was saving up for the Ork Codex and his reply was, "well, you've got a few months to wait for that."

Orktober being a possible month of new ork releases sounds like something GW would do and it's been quite a while since the orks took over White Dwarf so, I would love to see that again. I guess we'll see, eventually...

What I worry about is that we're waiting all this time just for a lame pun. "Hey fans, it's Orktober! Here's your codex and datacards!"

Hahah... oh man. Best troll is 40k history!

August WD is focused all on Adeptus Titanicus, perhaps we will get an Orktober codex only release.

If the September white dwarf isn't written entirely in Ork speech (like it was looted by orks) then I don't know what I'd do. XD probably move on with my life but I'd still be sad!

SemperMortis wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Also, is anyone else sad that our "Tactics" discussions basically finished about a year ago? "Take boyz, or don't compete in a tournament"

Yep. I'm more annoyed it seems to always boil down to list and math discussions over what to actually do on the table.

Orks/Ork discussions were the only motivation I had for joining this forum.

Again, that is due to the fact that our only real option is boyz, fast boyz and sneaky boyz....ohh and Mek gunz unless your opponent has a -1+ to hit. So what tactics are there? Hide your boyz from LOS, and then assault. theres positioning and what not to think about but that is all EXTREMELY linked to the actual make up of hte table in each game so its just to unpredictable.

I tried several times in that thread to say why I think Meganobz can be really usefull. Even though they are expensive they can hurt some targets really good, and they can often take a beating and survive. But then the first reply is always some math hammerer saying why boyz and mek gunz are better always and then the discussion is over.

Yes, it makes me sad too (even if the math hammerers are probably correct). Orks have plenty of unit options and variety. They are just poorly balanced

 Larks wrote:
What I worry about is that we're waiting all this time just for a lame pun. "Hey fans, it's Orktober! Here's your codex and datacards!"

Well, I was just reading back through some of my old posts a few days ago and came across a 'heated' exchange I had about the possible future direction of the Necrons in light of how the Orks Codex reiterated the Rogue Trader Ork background, waaay back in 2011. My prediction pretty much came true.

With that context my gut feeling is that the new Codex will be 'good'. I can't really comment on rules and the like, I was only ever a casual gamer and I haven't played a game of 40K for about fifteen years. I buy the models, I buy the novels, I read the Codices but that doesn't give me the requisite judgement on 'good' rules, not that I would have that anyway, I only ever bought and played what I felt was cool and thematic for me.

But I don't think we will get a half-arsed Codex, I think it will be equal to the others that have already come out. Some may find that unreassuring!

In terms of miniatures I think we will get some Iron Jawz style orks which will be replacements for the old ork boyz in the same way that Primaris are replacements for the old marine models. The background for this change has existed for many years already. We know that the orks were pitted against a massive Tyranid hive fleet so there is one possible avenue, more likely, we also know that there are ork empires so vast as to be almost impenetrable to Imperial agents. These empires reputedly had ork boyz the size of nobs, nobs as big as warbosses and warbosses of a size unseen by the rest of the Imperium. They've been so focussed on fighting each other that they have never turned their attention outwards to the wider galaxy. Now they will have.

I think these orks will be more technologically and culturally sophisticated. They will therefore be both more of a threat to the Imperium and unlikely allies as well.

As well as primaris orks I think there will be some kind of bigger dread' model, a wheeled vehicle and probably bikers or cyboars or both. I imagine there will be a few new character models/whacky big gun artillery type stuff too.

All complete speculation but, that's my feeling on what we'll get and that's why GW have been keeping shtum about what they have planned. If the silence is actually to hide the fact they're just going to re-box what already exists, I would be genuinely surprised.

EDIT: spelling

Gitdakka wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Also, is anyone else sad that our "Tactics" discussions basically finished about a year ago? "Take boyz, or don't compete in a tournament"

Yep. I'm more annoyed it seems to always boil down to list and math discussions over what to actually do on the table.

Orks/Ork discussions were the only motivation I had for joining this forum.

Again, that is due to the fact that our only real option is boyz, fast boyz and sneaky boyz....ohh and Mek gunz unless your opponent has a -1+ to hit. So what tactics are there? Hide your boyz from LOS, and then assault. theres positioning and what not to think about but that is all EXTREMELY linked to the actual make up of hte table in each game so its just to unpredictable.

I tried several times in that thread to say why I think Meganobz can be really usefull. Even though they are expensive they can hurt some targets really good, and they can often take a beating and survive. But then the first reply is always some math hammerer saying why boyz and mek gunz are better always and then the discussion is over.

Yes, it makes me sad too (even if the math hammerers are probably correct). Orks have plenty of unit options and variety. They are just poorly balanced

Exactly. We have tons of different units, maybe not compared to Space Marines, but absolutely when compared to a lot of other codices. The problem is we are one of the worst internally balanced armies in the game. When the best criticism for an army list is "can you get rid of that for more boyz", there's a real problem. I would love to take meganobz, bikers, deffkoptas, battlewagons, deff dreads, any of the fun options we have, but doing so only serves to cripple yourself.

Of course, this has all been said before. Pretty much any critique of the ork index has been said and done, so it really doesn't serve much purpose to talk about it now, especially when it'll all be changing in a month or two (or three, or four, or who knows how long).

Honestly I think the problem is that the current design approach is 'Introduce complexity by breadth of choice' - but if the codex has bad internal balance there are no choices at all.

I'd much rather see some 'Introduce complexity by depth of decision' - which would make some of the less appealing units and options better in certain scenarios and edge cases.

Exsactly! I remember for the first few games in 8th I won every time because I brought Boyz... about 100+ of them. Nothing could stop them untill the codex came out for marines and the dude flattened me with gullfaceman man. After that I took trukks and wagons and killa kanz but kept losing. No matter what I did nothing couod beat the enemy that i was beating so easily with boyz. So it's super tempting to just bring mire hoyz every time. Luckily I'm the kinda guy who doesn't mind losing as long as the battlefield looks great but even I admit I want to have a fair fight once in a while. Anyway, as soon as most the codecies came out I brought boyz again once and got demolished. So even that tactic doesn't work anymore with all the toyz everyone has.

Orks were my first 40k army, which I started when I was in 7th grade 20 years ago. In all that time, I must say that GW's treatment of the Orks has been consistently inconsistent. That is to say, there isn't much predictability in their approach to Orks. They were part of the original pentarchy that the 40k universe centered on - Space Marines, imperial guard, eldar, chaos, and orks. They were the focus of their own dedicated spin-off game - Gorkamorka. Despite their popularity among the creators of 40k, the various iterations of their codex in regular 40k have fluctuated between true Orky creativeness and utterly uninspired. But, I will say that there are four things that give me hope about Orks in 8th edition:

1.) There has always been an obvious assumption that Ork players will play Orks no matter what...which, to a certain degree, is entirely true. However, I will say that GW has finally realized that the gaming component of 40k is important to its fan base. Hence, their radical alterations to 8th edition, the return of faq's, etc. are all evidence that they are trying to correct things. (to what degree they have succeeded is entirely up to you and besides the point)
2.) Their willingness to take risks by introducing niche factions (Genestealer cult) and bring back sisters of battle after so many years shows that they have become more responsive to the fan base and realized the financial value in doing so.
3.) The fact that long-time losers (imperial guard and tyranids) ended up with some of the best (gameplay-wise), internally balanced, and fluffy codices shows that their rules writers have learned from their experience with 8th edition thus far. In particular, the Dark Eldar codex has really impressed me. They took some chances by dividing Dark Eldar into 4 sub factions (Kabalite, Wych, H. Coven, and mercenaries), but the end product provides an incredible amount of variation in gameplay and list-building. From my experience, one can make both an entirely mono sub-faction army and a mixed army effective in game.
4.) The staggering financial success of 8th edition means that they have the resources to devote to Orks. Moreover, the army's popularity throughout the years means that they have an incentive to do so.

Anyways, I just wanted to inject some positive thoughts into the discussion while we all wait.

Your hope is genuinely an inspiration Grumble!

yeah, ill agree with what grumple said. dark eldar had a bad ruleset for a long time and now they are top tear.

orks could very well be on the good side of codex creep for once. it gets me excited to see what we have.

but often i cant keep this optimism. it seems to all be from the fact that gw has forgotten they announced our codex, and everything they've done recently has had nothing to do with the ork codex. it seems like they are actively trying to lower the hype for the codex.

"maybe the ork players wont be so mad with their bad codex if we dont try to get them excited for it, quickly, release more gsc minis!"

If anything, I'm expecting geedubz to nerf the ork codex just to make up for dark eldar being so strong.

I don't they're trying to lower the hype, they're just hyping something else. We've had AOS 2.0, Kill team and now adeptus Titanicus. with all those releases it seems a bit silly to focus on hyping codices that won't be out until afterwards

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't they're trying to lower the hype, they're just hyping something else. We've had AOS 2.0, Kill team and now adeptus Titanicus. with all those releases it seems a bit silly to focus on hyping codices that won't be out until afterwards

What sort of idiotic company announces a pair of codexes then focuses on other games, specialist or otherwise?

Seems like a very, VERY stupid thing to do unless the wait is worth it and for many that means new models as well as a strong rule set.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't they're trying to lower the hype, they're just hyping something else. We've had AOS 2.0, Kill team and now adeptus Titanicus. with all those releases it seems a bit silly to focus on hyping codices that won't be out until afterwards

What sort of idiotic company announces a pair of codexes then focuses on other games, specialist or otherwise?

Seems like a very, VERY stupid thing to do unless the wait is worth it and for many that means new models as well as a strong rule set.

If such a major release was on the way they would have profited from marketing it. I doubt we'll get anything but a codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As per powet creep it's gonna be one hell of a codex though, that I can believe

I think the problem for Orks is that the BS 5+ creates a hard skew which is difficult to balance all the shooting models. You can make a rule about always hitting on 6s and it won't change this much.

Take say a Warbuggy armed with a Twin Big Shoota. I think thats 43 points today after Chapter Approved.

This may be a weird way of looking at things but:
Its got inferior shooting to 4 Tau fire warriors. (28 points)
In melee its basically a boy. (6 points)
But its got T5 and 5 wounds and a 4+ save.

Now if you said "okay, we are going to balance it around the shooting" then its only worth 25-30 points.

But T5, W5, 4+ save on a 25 point model looks very good. That sort of stat line is probably worth 40~ points. Especially on a model which is fast and can therefore run around grabbing objectives.

Which leaves you at this impasse. Either you reduce the price of the model, to represent its current damage capability, which boosts its toughness, or you need to boost the damage output. Make a twin big shoota assault 10-12 or something.

The concern for GW is that if you nuke points too much across the board, you potentially create a monster. If you can take 120~ ork boys, and then stick 1000 points worth of competitive points efficient firepower on the table, you have something which could badly break the meta.

The problem is if they are not points efficient no one will use them.

Tyel wrote:


The concern for GW is that if you nuke points too much across the board, you potentially create a monster. If you can take 120~ ork boys, and then stick 1000 points worth of competitive points efficient firepower on the table, you have something which could badly break the meta.

The problem is if they are not points efficient no one will use them.

all good points, but many of those expensive units like warbuggies and battlewagons etc are all shooting focused units. no one wants to get their buggies stuck in unless they had an upgrade for a wrecking ball or something.

also toughness 5 with a 4up save for warbuggies is nothing compared to the very common anti armor weapons in 8th. making something as week as t5 cheaper is not going to destroy the meta.

balanceing around shooting sounds fine to me for units that only really shoot. killakans are a hybrid thats in a weird spot so they would be hard to balance. but most units have a clear way they work. meganobz deffdredds and gmorkanauts are melee focused, dakkajets,defkoptas, buggies and batwagons are all shooting based.

i am all for decreasing points across the board for all units that are not boyz. and if its op then gw can just tweek the points in chapter approved.

I dont want ork shooting to be points effcient; and comparing it with firewarriors is just silly....

I dont care if its not points efficient for orks to dakka; I just want it to be a viable option. As it stands, combi meganobz cant unload all thier shots and advance at the same time which seems silly.

An Actual Englishman wrote:What sort of idiotic company announces a pair of codexes then focuses on other games, specialist or otherwise?

Seems like a very, VERY stupid thing to do unless the wait is worth it and for many that means new models as well as a strong rule set.

Oh my. You are proving Kirby right.

 davou wrote:
I dont want ork shooting to be points effcient; and comparing it with firewarriors is just silly....

I dont care if its not points efficient for orks to dakka; I just want it to be a viable option. As it stands, combi meganobz cant unload all thier shots and advance at the same time which seems silly.

Agreed that the shooting need not be points efficient, but the shooting units should be. We should always pay a point or two for T4, and 2 melee attacks at S4 is a tactical's dream. But this only amount to a couple points per ork.

Beyond these 5 points or so, the shooting ability should be points efficient. Hence lootas at 12 points isn't unreasonable at all. Same with D3 burnas at 9.

I think someone suggested somewhere that Orks should get the Gretchin ability that 20+ orks gives your +1 to their BS and WS instead of the +1 attack. Then maybe the Waaagh Banner swaps out to the +1 attack. That way people have a reason to choose between a shoota horde and a choppa horde (and you get the added bonus of not having the game getting slogged down by 30+ more dice that don't do much when you already have 100+ attacks).

So a blog of 30 shootas have BS 4+ to hold down and defend a point but at the same time if you break them down to 19 boyz they go back to BS 5+
But cc hordes don't get a nerf as their previously 30+ attacks are swapped out for hitting on 2+ ( I use a waagh banner... and trust me.. with a S4 no ap weapon I would rather have more reliable attacks than wasted attacks.... sick of charging into a squad of 10 guardsman and only need to use a 1/3 of my attacks).

 lolman1c wrote:
I think someone suggested somewhere that Orks should get the Gretchin ability that 20+ orks gives your +1 to their BS and WS instead of the +1 attack. Then maybe the Waaagh Banner swaps out to the +1 attack. That way people have a reason to choose between a shoota horde and a choppa horde (and you get the added bonus of not having the game getting slogged down by 30+ more dice that don't do much when you already have 100+ attacks).

So a blog of 30 shootas have BS 4+ to hold down and defend a point but at the same time if you break them down to 19 boyz they go back to BS 5+
But cc hordes don't get a nerf as their previously 30+ attacks are swapped out for hitting on 2+ ( I use a waagh banner... and trust me.. with a S4 no ap weapon I would rather have more reliable attacks than wasted attacks.... sick of charging into a squad of 10 guardsman and only need to use a 1/3 of my attacks).

If this was implemented, I'd rather have it so a shootaboy mob gains +1 to BS from green tide, but does not get +1A.
Lots of things they could do for shooting, a lot of which were discussed. My biggest high hopes for codex:

- Dedicated orky shooting units are good enough to consider taking. More varied and viable ranged anti-armor, anti-air.
- SAG gets much stronger and has whacky stuff happenning on doubles. All Meks and Spanners have BS4+.
- Reworked kommandos to not to be just DS boys.
- D6 burnas
- Transport is worth taking and becomes better in melee, so melee upgrades become more viable. Battlewagon should be able to use all of it's weapons at once, each providing attacks.
- Point cost increase for PK, but it becomes much meaner. So a trukk squad of boys is at least somewhat threatening.
- Walker buff
- Ramshackle mechanic gets more developed, should be a 6+ for warbuggies, koptas, kanz, grot tanks and trukk, 5+ for BW and Deff Dred. Hard Case should improve a Ramshackle Roll by +1.
- Reasonable invul/fnp saves for Nobs, HQ and Bikes
- Flashgits get 3+ or 4+ save and assault guns. Guns show offs is rolled for each model, not a single D6 for the whole squad
- Explode on 2+ stratagem
- A use for grots (hopefully they'll have the brains to make a stratagem similar to grot shield from Kill Team)

...Damn,I wanted to list just a few things and ended up writing this huge list. If at least 50% of the above happens, then I'll be a happy ork.

I’d like komandos to have the OLD version of outflank, come on a random edge and without the 9” limit, think that alone would make them a viable unit.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 davou wrote:
I dont want ork shooting to be points effcient; and comparing it with firewarriors is just silly....

I dont care if its not points efficient for orks to dakka; I just want it to be a viable option. As it stands, combi meganobz cant unload all thier shots and advance at the same time which seems silly.

Agreed that the shooting need not be points efficient, but the shooting units should be. We should always pay a point or two for T4, and 2 melee attacks at S4 is a tactical's dream. But this only amount to a couple points per ork.

Beyond these 5 points or so, the shooting ability should be points efficient. Hence lootas at 12 points isn't unreasonable at all. Same with D3 burnas at 9.

Lootas at 12 would still be a bad unit. To be as efficient at shooting as KMK are, lootaz would have to go to 6-7 points, but since they are more mobile, have some CC ability and more range with less durability though, you could go up to about 9 ppm on lootas to make them a propper alternative to KMK.
Burnas at 9 would still be worthless since the unit isn't good at killing anything, no matter what you pay for them. d3 S4 AP0 hits and 2 S4 AP-2 attacks struggle to match the strength of boyz or nobz, so they need some sort of special rule or stratagem to make them stand out against other units that are both more survivable and do more damage.

You will not get any useful results when using MEQ as a point of reference to balance orks
1) Most MEQ are terrible units right now. When you make orks just as good as MEQ, you make them terrible.
2) MEQ exist in an entirely different context. They can have reliable, long range anti-tank weapons, they have many auras that buff shooting and they usually have ablative wounds in their squads and lose little to now firepower until you reach the special weapons.

If you want a unit to be good, use a similar to a unit as point of reference that already does work. For shooting orks this would be the KMK - a decent shooting unit but by no means OP. For CC units this would be either boyz/stormboyz or Thrakka, depending on whether you want quantity or quality.

Davor wrote:

An Actual Englishman wrote:What sort of idiotic company announces a pair of codexes then focuses on other games, specialist or otherwise?

Seems like a very, VERY stupid thing to do unless the wait is worth it and for many that means new models as well as a strong rule set.

Oh my. You are proving Kirby right.

How so?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Davor wrote:

An Actual Englishman wrote:What sort of idiotic company announces a pair of codexes then focuses on other games, specialist or otherwise?

Seems like a very, VERY stupid thing to do unless the wait is worth it and for many that means new models as well as a strong rule set.

Oh my. You are proving Kirby right.

How so?

One of our complaints about Games Workshop was GW never tells us what is going on. We as a community would ask for it. We say how come Privateer Press would release info for like 6 months or more ahead of time before being released. This was part of the Kirby era. I believe it was Kirby who tried to keep EVERYTHING a secret. So saying with the words you used, would seem like it is wrong what GW is doing now giving us information about future projects and Kirby was correct in what he did then.

I am not saying you are right or wrong. I like this new informartion GW is doing. Nice to know and not be kept in the dark. Yes I would like more information but I like what GW is doing now than what they did in the Kirby years.

 davou wrote:
I dont want ork shooting to be points effcient; and comparing it with firewarriors is just silly....

I dont care if its not points efficient for orks to dakka; I just want it to be a viable option. As it stands, combi meganobz cant unload all thier shots and advance at the same time which seems silly.

I do want Ork shooting to be points efficient. I would actually like to be able to take my shooting units to tournaments and not have the distinct feeling that I should have just taken more hordes or CC options. Something like 2/3rds of our codex is shooting stuff and if our shooting isn't points efficient then it will most likely stay on the sidelines for another year.

I would also love to see our speed options become viable and for that to happen they need to be viable at shooting. Look at the Warbike, it is literally no better at CC then a regular boy but at the moment it costs 4.5 times as much as a regular boy, what is it they are paying for? T5 is nice but not really that beneficial except vs T4 and T5 weapons, and with 4+ saves and no invuln or cover save anymore they aren't really durable even with 2 wounds, especially when you consider all the multi wound weapons that exist in the game, hell a Plasma Cannon Devestator squad can kill a decent sized warbiker squad every turn. So if not durability or CC ability what are they paying for? speed? Well yeah they are fast, but not 27pts fast maybe for shooting? and here is the crutch this unit has. It is a FAST, SHOOTING unit, not a Fast Assault unit. With 6 shots at S5 they sound decent but then you realize that with 5+ to hit and 18' range they will most likely only ever get 1 shooting phase and then they will be dead, a FULL 12 boy biker squad can put out 72 shots at S5, 24 will hit and against a SM tactical squad they will get 16 wounds and manage an amazing 5 dead marines YAY, unless they are in cover, then its about 2 All for the low low cost of 324pts. So 324pts managed to kill 65pts. My opinion on shooting is that it should take roughly 3x as many points to kill a model/unit. So 324pts of ork shooting should kill 108ps of Space Marines, or almost 10 Space Marines, not 5. So for ork shooting to be cost effective by my own matrix then they need literally TWICE as much Dakka. Now of course that isn't touching on other factors like range, durability, options, abilities that can buff shooting, auras and what not but by that rough matrix ork shooting is just piss poor.

Another way to look at it is through the eyes of unarguably the BEST Ork unit in 8th edition right now, ork boyz. Shoota Boyz are atrocious. At 18' range they have the shortest ranged main weapon of most factions, especially when you factor in their piss poor movement stats, even eldar with their Shuriken weapons can move faster to enhance that relatively short ranged weapon. 2 shots per gun isn't bad but then you remember that 5+ to hit means that on average a single shoota boy will hit 2 times in 3 game turns with a S4 shot. So going back to the Spess Marine model, it takes roughly 9 Boyz to guarantee a dead Space Marine each turn, 9 boyz = 18 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and against 3+ saves = 1 dead Marine. 9 Boyz clocks in at 54pts. So it takes 54pts of Ork boyz to kill a 13 pt Marine, and if that 13pt Marine is in cover its actually 108pts of ork shoota boyz to kill that Marine. So our BEST model isn't capable of reliably killing at the 3:1 ratio.

I would dearly like to be able to use a shooting ork list and not feel like I am going to lose every time.