Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What about something that instead of taking away ballistic skill it adds to ork skill depending on number of models.

Like for every 10 orks in a unit it's +1 to hit.

Something that just represents them blocking out the sun with sheer number of bullets.

If you are hitting on 6s in my view you need 6 shots to to 'reliably" get one hit. So even if you do get a super cool gun on the new models if they move and hit on a 6 you are going to need 6 shots to maybe reliably get 1 hit and even then you still have to wound and get through their save. Ork shooting needs MASSIVE volume at 6s to hit to be worth ANYTHING or to always hit on a 5. Balancing the points at always hitting on a 5 would be a lot easier that way. Otherwise ork shooting is still worthless because it would be an auto lose against a -1 to hit army or unit. Once you give them always hit on a 5+ though you are now looking at an interesting counter pick to negative hit modifiers that helps the army stand out and be interesting.It also massively fits the orks in how they were not really aiming anyways.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
If you are hitting on 6s in my view you need 6 shots to to 'reliably" get one hit. So even if you do get a super cool gun on the new models if they move and hit on a 6 you are going to need 6 shots to maybe reliably get 1 hit and even then you still have to wound and get through their save. Ork shooting needs MASSIVE volume at 6s to hit to be worth ANYTHING or to always hit on a 5. Balancing the points at always hitting on a 5 would be a lot easier that way. Otherwise ork shooting is still worthless because it would be an auto lose against a -1 to hit army or unit. Once you give them always hit on a 5+ though you are now looking at an interesting counter pick to negative hit modifiers that helps the army stand out and be interesting.It also massively fits the orks in how they were not really aiming anyways.

Wasn't there that rumour of 6s always hit and we get army-wide, always on "dakka dakka dakka" stratagem which I'm assuming means 6s to hit generate extra shots?

Might be a suitable compromise?

Mr.Church13 wrote:
What about something that instead of taking away ballistic skill it adds to ork skill depending on number of models.

Like for every 10 orks in a unit it's +1 to hit.

Something that just represents them blocking out the sun with sheer number of bullets.

That's what Grots have.

 Blndmage wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
What about something that instead of taking away ballistic skill it adds to ork skill depending on number of models.

Like for every 10 orks in a unit it's +1 to hit.

Something that just represents them blocking out the sun with sheer number of bullets.

That's what Grots have.

Well, seems I need to pay more attention to Gretchin.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
If you are hitting on 6s in my view you need 6 shots to to 'reliably" get one hit. So even if you do get a super cool gun on the new models if they move and hit on a 6 you are going to need 6 shots to maybe reliably get 1 hit and even then you still have to wound and get through their save. Ork shooting needs MASSIVE volume at 6s to hit to be worth ANYTHING or to always hit on a 5. Balancing the points at always hitting on a 5 would be a lot easier that way. Otherwise ork shooting is still worthless because it would be an auto lose against a -1 to hit army or unit. Once you give them always hit on a 5+ though you are now looking at an interesting counter pick to negative hit modifiers that helps the army stand out and be interesting.It also massively fits the orks in how they were not really aiming anyways.

Wasn't there that rumour of 6s always hit and we get army-wide, always on "dakka dakka dakka" stratagem which I'm assuming means 6s to hit generate extra shots?

Might be a suitable compromise?

Great now when you actually roll a 6 you get another 1/6 chance to hit meaning to reliable get off that that extra hit you need 6 extra hits meaning you needed to roll six sixes. Also make sure that stratagem is unmodified rolls of six or it's never going to work against negative to hit modifier armies. I wouldn't actually know anything about that rumor and even if it were true I'd find that disappointing. Now if we combine always hit on 5s and 6s are extra shots (or the 6s auto hit) I'd be impressed.

One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...

blaktoof wrote:
One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...

Hold on now. GW has to make an Ork dex to satiate the small player base. They surely don't like them enough to do something THAT crazy.

 Jidmah wrote:

All the things you mentioned are not common to orks across the galaxy but only found in Thrakka's Great Waaagh - which is the single largest Waaagh! in history since the War of the Beast and most of those formations have sprung from Thrakka's tactics. This is why they were only available for that specific book - mind blowing, right? Which means, outside of the The Great Waaagh!, none of these exist - with the exception of Dread Mobs, which also have been seen on Castorel Novem (aka Mekkslag Iks) - where the Waaagh! has become so big that an entire populations of Orks is just hanging around on multiple planets of a system, doing nothing but looting and building stuff.

Maybe you should read the fluff in the book with the rules you misunderstood as fluff before feeling qualified to judge someone's logic.
.

I'm at work and on a phone, I'll try to keep this short.

Ahem....just because it's rare in the fluff doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. At this point your basically saying that I shouldn't run dreddmob because it's only supported in 2 official gw books.

Let's just say your argument is invalid. The fluff is there, its supported, I can play it, why are you trying to argue against that? What's is even the point of us arguing about this anymore?

1st you try to argue to against fluff that it isn't as fluffy as other fluff? It's still in the fluff, it doesn't stop existing or become irelavent just because it disproves your argument.
2nd, you try to argue that I'm being elitist because I say we need to pay alot for orks? We are a horde army....how many orks do you have, I highly doubt you've paid little and only have around only 20 models (unless you only have a killteam). This can be said for tyranids and imp guard as well, the only exception is if we only bought the superheavies.

blaktoof wrote:
One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...

So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...

So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.

I don't think it would be that crazy to say "we decided to experiment over multiple editions with Orks at 5+ BS and you know what, its resulted in them being bottom tier from about 5th edition (because we consistently buffed shooting over assault)."

But I don't think its going to happen.

Really hoping for always hit on 5s. Have no confidence it will happen.

Tyel wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...

So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.

I don't think it would be that crazy to say "we decided to experiment over multiple editions with Orks at 5+ BS and you know what, its resulted in them being bottom tier from about 5th edition (because we consistently buffed shooting over assault)."

But I don't think its going to happen.

Really hoping for always hit on 5s. Have no confidence it will happen.

I'm still holding out hope for our shooty units getting the dakkajet's "Dakka Dakka Dakka" special rule where if every weapon fires on a single target it gets +1 to hit. Doesn't directly buff our BS but it gives us a chance to actually kill things in the shooting phase.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...

So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.

There were multiple editions where Orks were BS4+.

Upping BS to come to an average number of successful rolls instead of having the player roll more dice comes to the same outcome.

A player having to roll 60 dice to get 10 successes versus a player having to roll 30 dice to get 10 successes is an effect on the player not the character of the background for the toy soldiers.

Not sure how you think that robs them of anything, unless you think being unable to hit certain factions at all if you move/advance, and some units of those factions are unhittable even if you remain stationary is the basis of flavorful or uniqueness.

Since you don't like that simple elegant fix, here is one. For every 5 models in an Ork unit targeting an unit with the same weapon they fire an additional d3 shots with that weapon, for each roll of 1 the shot is instead resolved against the shooting unit. These additional shots always hit

I like the idea of ALWAYS hitting on 5s and 6s give us a bonus shot. To put that in perspective. Our drastically over priced Lootas right now with 30 shots get 10 hits. With this new idea they would get 11-12 hits. Not game breaking but at least it gives them a bit more damage overall, team that up with a price reduction or an increase in their ROF and suddenly lootas are viable again.

Sounds like GW is gonna push this kult of speed angle with flashy new kits that everyone will need to keep their orks 'competitive' by making the board even smaller first turn. Why not just start placing units in base to base contact... err, wait, maybe they are saving that for 9th edition. Then, we can get 3000pts on a MtG table and finish the game in 15minutes, just what everyone has been wanting right? Shorter games, smaller tables, more models to play with - yeay!

 jeff white wrote:
Sounds like GW is gonna push this kult of speed angle with flashy new kits that everyone will need to keep their orks 'competitive' by making the board even smaller first turn. Why not just start placing units in base to base contact... err, wait, maybe they are saving that for 9th edition. Then, we can get 3000pts on a MtG table and finish the game in 15minutes, just what everyone has been wanting right? Shorter games, smaller tables, more models to play with - yeay!

For a lot of armies they started 9" away with most of their units for most of 8th so far...

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...

So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.

So points inefficiency is unique and flavorful? If that's what passes for flavor then I'll take the bland IG 4+.

Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?

The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".

I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?

The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".

I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)

Im assuming with those extra genterated attacks on 6s I still have to roll to hit with them on 5s...which is much less impressive. Only 1/3rd of your extra attacks will actually hit, and those are only going to occur 1/6th of the time to begin with....

 Billagio wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?

The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".

I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)

Im assuming with those extra genterated attacks on 6s I still have to roll to hit with them on 5s...which is much less impressive. Only 1/3rd of your extra attacks will actually hit, and those are only going to occur 1/6th of the time to begin with....

Don't forget that we'll also be able to reroll 1's to hit for < BADMOONS > units.
As it stands Dakka Dakka Dakka is great for Tank bustas because they reroll those 1's.

There's also the Freebootaz trait that seems to be a bit too good, but if true will have massive synergy with Dakka.

I must know what squig buggies are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anyone else remember a post on here a while back saying something about a cad file or something called a 'squigataur' or something?

I believe the gist of the post was that a couple years back some cad files were leaked, and all of them have made it into production with the exception of the squigataur.

If army wide dakka dakka was that a natural 6 always hits and generates an extra hit, then it'd be okay-ish, I think. If it generates an extra shot, then it's more dice rolling for almost no outcome, which is lame. But honestly, I don't think it would be too OP for entire squad shooting all of it's guns at the same target to get +1BS(or reroll amount of shots in case of autohitting weapons) given our lack of AP.

Also just cutting prices on everything won't work for all units. Don't forget about the rule of 3. I'm hoping for decent special rules and stat boosts.

If wer're always hitting on unmodified rolls of 6 and that 6 also generates another hit (not shot), I'd be cool with that. It's probably not enough to make ork shooting good, but I doubt we get anything better than that.

I don't really want more shots, or at least for that to be the sole solution, considering how many dice we already roll for so few hits.

Extra HITS on sixes would be just bonkers. Never gonna happen as an army wide rule. Stratagem _maybe_.

@All the people who responded to my post -

Giving orks a blanket 4+ BS at this point would just be lazy and uninspired. Them getting something more flavorful like BS5+ that is not subject to negative to hit penalties would be a great deviation from the norm. Now you want to advance and fire your shootas because why not? Now you don't mind about shooting up at the sky trying to hit a flyer because you weren't really aiming anyways. Always hitting on 5s and getting extra shots on 6s is a MUCH, MUCH better way to handle ork shooting than just buffing one specific number.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
@All the people who responded to my post -

Giving orks a blanket 4+ BS at this point would just be lazy and uninspired. Them getting something more flavorful like BS5+ that is not subject to negative to hit penalties would be a great deviation from the norm. Now you want to advance and fire your shootas because why not? Now you don't mind about shooting up at the sky trying to hit a flyer because you weren't really aiming anyways. Always hitting on 5s and getting extra shots on 6s is a MUCH, MUCH better way to handle ork shooting than just buffing one specific number.

ill agree wiith this. not having to worry about negative modifiers sounds sweet while not makeing us just a blanket 4+. though i thinks its more realistic that we would get a "always hit on 6s" rule from GW.

Always hittting on 5's is what I'd really want. Hopefully we get that or some close approximation to it.

In regards to extra hits on unmodified 6's, isn't that statistically the same thing? With the exception of potentially better single shot weapons. And of course whether that ability works in overwatch as well or not.

yeah if dakka dakka rule is an extra shot on a 6 then assuming full bs (hitting on 5s) thats and whopping extra 5.5% number of hits so basically extra rolling for no real benefit. Maybe there will be some synergy with traits. But i feel the last thing orks need is to make our turns longer.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?

The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".

I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)

....except it wouldn't do nearly enough to justify our plethora of shooting options. Dakka Dakka Dakka is a garbage strat anyway. you have a 1/6th chance to roll a 6, now you get a 1/3rd chance to hit, so your chances of pulling this off is 5.55%. Army wide? for Free? that is fine, just don't expect it to do anything to your damage output. 30 Loota shots at a T7 vehicle = 10 hits with 5 rerolls on average, those 5 rerolls = 1.66 more hits so now instead of 5 wounds on average you get 5.8 Whooopee!

That btw, is why I always said Dakka Dakka Dakka strategy was a waste of command points.

Like others here have said, if it is a unmodified 6 always hits AND generates 1 Extra hit that would be ok, but otherwise its just a waste of time rolling more dice for a minimal impact to the game.

Do you guys not roll enough dice already? Why are people suggesting a really bad 'fix' like army wide DakkaDakkaDakka, so that you have to count and faff with even more re-rolls!

I think best suggestion so far has been always hitting on 5+. Especially for basic Shoota Boyz, but I'm really not convinced GW would do this.

Primary role shooting units like Flash Gits and Lootas probably need a few individual changes. Flash gits are already BS4+ but desperately need better armour so they don't get sneezed off the table. Even with say 4+ armour save their weapon profile probably still needs a buff. Lootas are in a similar boat, but not quite so exaggerated. If they were Heavy 3 (notD3) they'd be a slightly more attractive consideration. But probably also need something like 'always hit on 5+' or BS4+ to bring them in line with other factions options.