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fe40k wrote:

100 shots = ~2.7 extra HITS.

Go ahead and tell me you a) take that much shooting in the first place, and b) ~2.7 HITS is a reasonable buff, and will solve all our shooting woes.

It's a joke.

Actually it's 5 extra hits, or 1 extra hit for every 20 shots. It's about a third as good as getting BS 4+. (which is 16 extra hits out of 100, or 3 extra hits out of 20)

Orks are a heavily melee-focused army in the same way Space Marines are a static gunline army. That may be how it often turns out due to rules, but it's not the way it's supposed to be if we go by the fluff and available units. Telling a Bad Moon player they shouldn't expect anything from their shooting is like telling a Black Templars player they should ditch the chainswords for lascannons.

Edit: That said I don't think we really know how ork shooting is going turn out in the new codex even if the leaks are 100% true. Too many other things like points, stratagems and even weapon profiles that haven't been accounted for yet.

Dandelion wrote:

fe40k wrote:

100 shots = ~2.7 extra HITS.

Go ahead and tell me you a) take that much shooting in the first place, and b) ~2.7 HITS is a reasonable buff, and will solve all our shooting woes.

It's a joke.

Actually it's 5 extra hits, or 1 extra hit for every 20 shots. It's about a third as good as getting BS 4+. (which is 16 extra hits out of 100, or 3 extra hits out of 20)

We're BS4.7+ then; which is... something.

It's ~2.7 when you're at a -1 to-hit, right?

Yes, it's 2.7 extra hits at -1 to hit. Which takes you from 16.67 hits to 19.37ish hits.

Though tbh, all in all it's actually still pretty decent. Not amazeballs or anything, but good enough to consider.

30 ork shoota boys cost 180 pts and will now land 23 hits up from 20.
14 marines cost 184 pts and will land 18 shots in rapid fire range.
26 Tau fire warriors cost 182 pts and will land 26 hits in rapid fire.

there's other considerations like range and movement, but it's hard to gauge at this point. And who knows? Wartrukks might go down in points, giving shoota boyz all the mobility they need.

Getting an extra hit on 6s is more or less having a Tau markerlight on everything.

Can i just say, although they only have 8" range, skorchas do roast one MEQ on average in overwatch or shooting.

You can add one per unit of shoota boyz. That represents a pretty significant (30%) increase in shooting casualties when within range.

While the range is a huge factor, it is not affected by advancing or overwatch and hit modifiers don't affect it. I'm planning on using the evil sunz clan bonus to leverage this and add one to each unit while pushing into flamer range. If that is as rumored, you could advance a shoota boy unit an average of 10.5 inches a turn while shooting at full BS. That represents a reliable 18.5 inch threat range with the kombi skorcha on an infantry nob.

Wonder why people keep insist ignoring all modifers is somehow fluffy...If you spray lots of bullets it doesn\t mean odds of hitting stays fixed. If you have low odds more bullets means more hits y but easier targets would still get even more hits.

Idea of the "Orks believe so they magically hit more" is even more of a joke as that is not actual in universum fact. The whole "orks believe enough to make things work" is NOT ACTUAL FACT! Or even particularly important part of fluff. It's SPECULATION from one human and ONLY BEEN IN ONE CODEX!

That's about as unreliable as it gets.

Before claiming rule would be fluffy READ your fluff first.

1/6 of 1/6 is 1/36 or 2.7%.

But thats assuming a hit modifier of -1.

Without the modifier it's twice that.

 TedNugent wrote:
1/6 of 1/6 is 1/36 or 2.7%.

But thats assuming a hit modifier of -1.

Without the modifier it's twice that.

This is exactly what Guard are hitting things on with a -2 to it.


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better

We need to wait until the codex is out before making any snap judgements. This fixes an element of ork shooting, now we just need to hope that GW fix our other issues.

Those who have spoken about the problems with our shooting are absolutely correct - some platforms come with expensive guns that we need to use, there are situations where we can't assault units (grav tanks on buildings is always fun) and a 5% or 2% with -1 to hit increase in hits is not going to fix ork shooting alone.

I love how other factions and players are clamouring for our rules before we even have a codex.

Alcibiades wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
1/6 of 1/6 is 1/36 or 2.7%.

But thats assuming a hit modifier of -1.

Without the modifier it's twice that.

This is exactly what Guard are hitting things on with a -2 to it.


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better

Yeah, and Guard throw more dice than Orks. Call me when Orks get a Heavy 40 weapon.

But that's neither here nor there. The larger question should be whether -2 modifiers should even be a thing, given how devastating even a -1 to hit can be for shooting focused armies like Tau and Guard. It strikes me that negative modifiers for shooting are disproportionately effective compared to other options, so are they even a good thing for the game?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We need to wait until the codex is out before making any snap judgements. This fixes an element of ork shooting, now we just need to hope that GW fix our other issues.
I love how other factions and players are clamouring for our rules before we even have a codex.

you are absolutely correct...but thats part of the problem, we have to wait.
im glad we are finally getting ork related reveals and articles. but the issue is the ork player base has been hyped up something fierce, we are all of the sudden very active on the forums since we now have something to talk about. but unfortunately until the codex comes out we have only speculation to talk about. if we didn't talk about rules and potential rules and speculate on whether GW will make our shooting worth a dam then all we have to converse on is the new cool looking vehicles....and we've done that, now time to pick apart rules both revealed and rumored to high heaven.

this was always going to happen, and until we get that codex in our hand and have had a few games then its going to stay that way.

True enough.

I'm surprised there isn't more chat around the rumoured 20PL deep strike units stratagem. Granted we don't have much information but I think this is by far the scariest thing we've seen for our army so far.

Assuming it's only one model, a Gorkanaut dropping turn 2 with an 8" charge and possible 3D6 charge dice with mortal wounds sounds like an absolute game changer. Why not throw in a Mek Shop and KMKs with Stompa at the back? Feels really brutal.

Can someone tell me how the Stompa fares in light of DDD and assuming it's doing full shots with every weapon? That's a ton of Dakka no?

tneva82 wrote:
Wonder why people keep insist ignoring all modifers is somehow fluffy...

Because Orks don't aim. The 5+ to hit already represents some bullets ending up in the same place as an enemy model simply by chance based on the bullets' even distribution across the battlefield. No amount of dodging or even being invisible has any bearing on the odds to hit under that assumption, because the spot you're dodging to is equally filled with ork bullets as the spot you're dodging from.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
True enough.

I'm surprised there isn't more chat around the rumoured 20PL deep strike units stratagem. Granted we don't have much information but I think this is by far the scariest thing we've seen for our army so far.

Assuming it's only one model, a Gorkanaut dropping turn 2 with an 8" charge and possible 3D6 charge dice with mortal wounds sounds like an absolute game changer. Why not throw in a Mek Shop and KMKs with Stompa at the back? Feels really brutal.

Can someone tell me how the Stompa fares in light of DDD and assuming it's doing full shots with every weapon? That's a ton of Dakka no?

Leaving the math to someone else, but I would just like to reiterate that I seriously doubt the mek shop will buff more than a single weapon on a single vehicle. If what I assume to be the case is indeed correct then the Kill tank is looking pretty strong. Jidmah noted that it's less than 20PL so it could be held off the table T1 just like tallarn superheavies and then you fire off 36 gigashoota shots (or 12 bursta kannon shots). I'm not sure how good that actually is but if someone owns a kill tank then this seems like a mssive improvement to usability

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Can someone tell me how the Stompa fares in light of DDD and assuming it's doing full shots with every weapon? That's a ton of Dakka no?

If we assume full shots with every weapons:

Deff Kannon fires 6 times, hits twice, with one 6. 66% chance the extra attack misses. It'll do 7 dmg on average to pretty much any target without an invul thanks to it's -4 modifier.

Supa-Gatler fires 36 times if we also assume that we roll a 2+ then a 5+. 12 of those hit, with 6 extra attacks, 2 of which hit. 14 hits overall.

The Supa-Rokkit fires 3 times, hits once. There's a 50% chance this was a 6, but then a 66% chance that extra attack misses.

The Twin Big Shoota gets another 2 hits, and 1 extra attack, that also misses 66% of the time.

So overall, in absolutely optimum circumstances, Dakka Dakka Dakka gives a Stompa on average an extra 3 hits (2 Supa-Gatler, 1 split evenly between Deff Kannon, Supa-Rokkit and Twin Big Shoota).

there's 3 more normal big shootas on there too...also a skorcha, assuming you're in range

 Glane wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Can someone tell me how the Stompa fares in light of DDD and assuming it's doing full shots with every weapon? That's a ton of Dakka no?

If we assume full shots with every weapons:

Deff Kannon fires 6 times, hits twice, with one 6. 66% chance the extra attack misses. It'll do 7 dmg on average to pretty much any target without an invul thanks to it's -4 modifier.

Supa-Gatler fires 36 times if we also assume that we roll a 2+ then a 5+. 12 of those hit, with 6 extra attacks, 2 of which hit. 14 hits overall.

The Supa-Rokkit fires 3 times, hits once. There's a 50% chance this was a 6, but then a 66% chance that extra attack misses.

The Twin Big Shoota gets another 2 hits, and 1 extra attack, that also misses 66% of the time.

So overall, in absolutely optimum circumstances, Dakka Dakka Dakka gives a Stompa on average an extra 3 hits (2 Supa-Gatler, 1 split evenly between Deff Kannon, Supa-Rokkit and Twin Big Shoota).

Thank you sir!

Needs moar Dakka!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Needs moar Dakka!

and a huge point reduction

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
People who expect Orkz to shoot should just go play Guard and get it over with.

Get out of this thread, you are not welcome here anymore

On a more serious note, almost every picture showing orks that has ever been drawn shows them shooting. Our ratio of dedicated shooting units to dedicated close combat units is comparable to necrons or chaos space marines.

Orks are not a Khorne army, we are hybrids just like Space Marines should be, except they have better weapons and armor, while we have more bodies and more attacks in combat.


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Alcibiades wrote:
Getting an extra hit on 6s is more or less having a Tau markerlight on everything.

This is probably the best comparison so far. It's a decent rule to get for free, but it's not going to save ork shooting all by itself.

Still, that extra rokkit that hits from time to time might be game changing.

Mathematically speaking there is indeed no difference between the second part of the dakka dakka rule and rerolling 1's to hit, which isn't half bad as a bonus. Only time will tell though if that is enough.

TheWawior wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
As an Ork player that has Shelved my army for 3 editions now... I feel the pain here, but.... You all do realize there are OTHER armies out there that do shooting proper right?

Im forced into using a 30 boyz Shoota mob because 130 Slugga Boyz just isn't enough and I only have 30 more Shoota boyz in my collection, but I don't expect them to do much realistically.

I'll use Da Jump on them if a target presents itself, but mostly back field them, or use as a Mob Rule bump.

People who expect Orkz to shoot should just go play Guard and get it over with.

But people want to play ork shooting lists because of how it is portrayed in the fluff.
IG is probably as close to real world armies as you'll get in 40k (still not particularly close), but as an ork player that's not what I'm after.
Each individual ork should not be "good" at shooting things[u] (the exceptions are big meks with their weird passion-project firearms, but that's another discussion). It also shouldn't matter that one ork is bad at shooting because there's never just one ork shooting at you.
Ork shooting shouldn't be viable because it's accurate, it should be viable because it is such a monstrously large wall of dakka that it doesn't need to be. That's the feeling of ork shooting that makes it different.
Can you do a massed horde of guns with IG? Yes, if you like rank-and-file, standard-issue dudes fighting for their very existence by all means, go have fun and do your thing.
But that's not what draws people to orks (or at least not me).
I want to do a big wall of gun-toting green that sprays so much in your general direction that you'll get hit eventually (I'm one of the weirdos who likes rolling lots of dice).

TL;DR, IG can shoot good, but they can't dakka.

I disagree profoundly on that point.

Each ork has a genetic predisposition to a certain type of war. You cannot tell me that a ork predetermined to become a loota who spends thier time shooting things up with thier deffguns and just wants to throw tons of bullets at things is not supposed to be good at shooting. Same with a ork that would be assigned as a gunner on a vehicle be it tank or walker or manning a cannon of said vehicles. flash gitz would likewise always be practicing with thier souped up snazzguns and thus should be able to hit with the things.

In the fluff other armies like Guard get some often minimal training before being handed a lasgun and in game terms hitting on 4's. I cannot believe that a ork who practices their whole life on shooting would not somehow equal that.

I think the solution is much liek guard have veterens who have BS3 ork speacialist shooters should be BS4.


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tneva82 wrote:
Wonder why people keep insist ignoring all modifers is somehow fluffy...If you spray lots of bullets it doesn\t mean odds of hitting stays fixed. If you have low odds more bullets means more hits y but easier targets would still get even more hits.

Idea of the "Orks believe so they magically hit more" is even more of a joke as that is not actual in universum fact. The whole "orks believe enough to make things work" is NOT ACTUAL FACT! Or even particularly important part of fluff. It's SPECULATION from one human and ONLY BEEN IN ONE CODEX!

That's about as unreliable as it gets.

Before claiming rule would be fluffy READ your fluff first.

the orks believing in something and it happening is in more than one codex. we have rules for red paint in the 4th and 6th codexes and i the one before that i believe 3rd had the yellow explosions if i am recalling correctly.

blue is lucky

red ones go faster

yellow explodes more.

^+and purple is sneaky

 ZoBo wrote:
there's 3 more normal big shootas on there too...also a skorcha, assuming you're in range

Well the Skorcha doesn't benefit from Dakka Dakka Dakka so i didn't include it.

As to the other 3 Big Shootas I honestly forgot about them, but if we include them we get another 3 hits, with around a 50% chance of a 6 in there, for a net gain of pretty much nothing. When we're talking about a unit that clocks in at just under 1000 points, even with maxed out shooting it's really not doing very much.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
True enough.

I'm surprised there isn't more chat around the rumoured 20PL deep strike units stratagem. Granted we don't have much information but I think this is by far the scariest thing we've seen for our army so far.

Assuming it's only one model, a Gorkanaut dropping turn 2 with an 8" charge and possible 3D6 charge dice with mortal wounds sounds like an absolute game changer. Why not throw in a Mek Shop and KMKs with Stompa at the back? Feels really brutal.

Can someone tell me how the Stompa fares in light of DDD and assuming it's doing full shots with every weapon? That's a ton of Dakka no?

I don't think it's just one model, otherwise they would have made it similar to how daemons work, just telling to deep strike one unit. The 20 PL and a limit to one unit would only exclude full units of Nobz, MANz and deff dreads plus the stompa and the gargantuan squiggoth. 20 PL would be an incredibly odd way to do that, when they could just exclude monstrous or gargantuan creatures so it doesn't start to rain stompas.

It's probably 20 PL of whatever you want, though I could see it limited to infantry and bikes, since many other armies have limits like that. It also fits with the rumor of them going back to the drawing board because orks could deep strike half their army - if it were limited to two units like it was for eldar, we could still land 60 boyz plus kommandos plus da jump.

Assuming PL didn't change, some notable options are excluded from this stratagem:
- Full strength units of nobz (PL21)
- More than one full-strength unit of boyz (PL13) (maximum number of boyz possible are 40, with room for 10 gretchin)
- More than one unit of trukk boyz (PL 13)
- More than one battlewagon (PL11)
- Three deff dreads (PL22)

Options that are very interesting:
- 2x 15 tank bustas with 4 squigs (PL20)
- 6 MANz (19 PL)
- 6 Killa kanz (19 PL)
- Nauts, if they aren't excluded for some reason
- 10+5 Flashgits (PL20)
- Battlewagon with 20 shoota boyz inside (PL20)
- 15 Warbikes (PL17)

I don't think deep-striking and ramming gorkanauts are not intended game design, I so I wouldn't count on it working. I might be wrong though.

Guys, it's an additional hit roll, not an additional hit.

Meaninf a -1 modifier would affect that second hit roll. And even unmodified that is only a hit on 5's.

One in eighteen shots scoring two hits for free is still great.

just checking, how does that work for multi-shot weapons?...for example an Assault 3 big shoota...if you roll a 6 to hit, would you then roll a single additional dice, or an additional 3 dice?

it's just 1 additional dice, right?...otherwise it would be worded as "make another shooting attack with that weapon" or something, right?

 ZoBo wrote:
just checking, how does that work for multi-shot weapons?...for example an Assault 3 big shoota...if you roll a 6 to hit, would you then roll a single additional dice, or an additional 3 dice?

It says immediately make an additional hit roll, so you'd roll one more die.

righto, yeah...I thought that was the case

shame though, entire additional shooting attacks on 6's would be sweet