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d6 damage vs d3 is minor buff for KMK. Not worth 42% and loss of crew is NERF. And that price increase is with crew compared so "doesn't have to pay for crew" isn't much help. Big nerf with loss of crew AND 42% price hike. That d6 sure better be worth that double nerf.

Stormboyz deep strike...Tiny boost if at all. Unless they are evil sun they are not charging reliably so DS and die. With 14" movement+evil sun though DS not even that much needed. But of course price hike hurts. That DS is pretty darn expensive ability that isn't even neccessarily even used...(and could just as well have: must be evil sun as stormboys deep striking with other clan trait is just lol bad idea. With evil sun at least you have 8" charge which isn't that bad so can avoid round of shooting at least)

Going from an average of 2 damage to an average of 3.5 is a 75% increase, so, yes it is mathematically worth it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Going from an average of 2 damage to an average of 3.5 is a 75% increase, so, yes it is mathematically worth it.

I have to agree with you on this one. One of the things orks lack is d6 damage on anything. I'm not feeling the nerf on this one. The crew board space argument is weak...once they're that far into an ork backfield it's over anyway, and my guns die to enemy shooting,which the crew do not affect anyway.

Backfield?What does backfield really matter? If more than 5 crew were at the backfield you were doing something wrong. The grot crews were one of the best units on the whole index...Not certanly most killyness but not every model needs to be super killy.

If you just look at the kill power of unit then you are missing a ton. Grot crews were supposed to be anywhere BUT backfield. And whether gun died or not was irrelevant. Most of your crew wouldn't be anywhere near one anyway. All the gun deaths would mean would be last one would be free to move around as well.

tneva82 wrote:
Backfield?What does backfield really matter? If more than 5 crew were at the backfield you were doing something wrong. The grot crews were one of the best units on the whole index...Not certanly most killyness but not every model needs to be super killy.

If you just look at the kill power of unit then you are missing a ton. Grot crews were supposed to be anywhere BUT backfield. And whether gun died or not was irrelevant. Most of your crew wouldn't be anywhere near one anyway. All the gun deaths would mean would be last one would be free to move around as well.

So A 2 point gunless grot was that much better than a 3 point one with a gun? Sure, they could objective camp, but using "Take Cover" to steal objectives after the gun is gone was just a bogus exploit, and doing so made you That Guy.

Is that what you were doing with them? If so good riddance.

Yeah tneva is whining for the sake of whining. It's definitely shaping to be a good codex compared to a lot of the other drivel released.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah tneva is whining for the sake of whining. It's definitely shaping to be a good codex compared to a lot of the other drivel released.

I am not seeing this. I am seeing a lot of nerfs to our good units and a lot of nothing for units that really needed some love. I sadly don't think this will be a good codex overall. we may get a good build out of it but I don't think it will be balanced. At the moment I still don't see how we are going to field Warbikes, even with the point reduction (18pts in 7th to 27 in index to 23 now). They wouldn't be a bad unit for shooting but that is about it. 12 warbikes = 72 shots = 28 hits which is about 18 wounds vs T4 or 6 Dead Marines. The problem is that even with that shooting buff (that included Dakkax3) they are still 23ppm so those 12 models = 276pts and they only managed to kill 6 Marines worth 78pts. And in CC they aren't good either since they still have the basic stats in CC as a Boy, so 12 Warbikers (not counting the nob for this) is 36 attacks, 24 hits and 12 wounds vs T4. or 3 Dead Marines. Not exactly awe inspiring....to put it another way, not competitive. maybe more usable in friendly games but it will never be used in competitive games. Deffkoptas are in a similar boat, they even got a pretty hefty Price cut, but I still don't see people taking a 54pt model armed with 2 Rokkitz unless they've drastically changed its profile.

The entire Ork army is paying for the DDD on the few units that can actually make use of it.

Also, we’re paying for tactics, stratagems, and a real codex.

fe40k wrote:
The entire Ork army is paying for the DDD on the few units that can actually make use of it.

Also, we’re paying for tactics, stratagems, and a real codex.

Sadly I think you are right :(

So what?

Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.

SemperMortis wrote:
I am not seeing this. I am seeing a lot of nerfs to our good units and a lot of nothing for units that really needed some love.

A lot of nerfs? Please quantify them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

fe40k wrote:
The entire Ork army is paying for the DDD on the few units that can actually make use of it.

Also, we’re paying for tactics, stratagems, and a real codex.

Sadly I think you are right :(

Paying how? Boyz went up 1. A handful of other units went up. The vast majority of units went down and/or got stat boosts.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I am not seeing this. I am seeing a lot of nerfs to our good units and a lot of nothing for units that really needed some love.

A lot of nerfs? Please quantify them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

fe40k wrote:
The entire Ork army is paying for the DDD on the few units that can actually make use of it.

Also, we’re paying for tactics, stratagems, and a real codex.

Sadly I think you are right :(

Paying how? Boyz went up 1. A handful of other units went up. The vast majority of units went down and/or got stat boosts.

Boyz go up 16.6%, KMKs go up almost 50%, almost all our characters go up in points, Stormboyz go up 1ppm, Bikes dropped only 4ppm, still useless, Rokkitz are still 12pts each, Stompa still useless, Lootas still useless, Flashgitz actually went up in price.

Now I know you well enough to know you are going to come back and show me how all these nerfs are actually buffs because XYZ, just know that I don't agree with you and no amount of you trying to explain how giving us Klan Traits will change that.

For those who care to know though, take a look at the Flashgitz, they went up in price, they gained 4+ armor and their gunz became slightly better, the problem is that nobody is going to run them because they don't benefit from Klan traits AND they are 30ppm for slow infantry that have heavy gunz. And a 4+ won't do anything for them when they get blasted off the table by basically every -ap gun the enemy has because why wouldn't you delete the easy target that costs 150pts for 5 models.

SemperMortis wrote:

Now I know you well enough to know you are going to come back and show me how all these nerfs are actually buffs because XYZ, just know that I don't agree with you and no amount of you trying to explain how giving us Klan Traits will change that.

You think what you want - won't change the end result.

Well Dark Reapers are even more expensive per wound. Quit whining.

For those who care to know though, take a look at the Flashgitz, they went up in price, they gained 4+ armor and their gunz became slightly better, the problem is that nobody is going to run them because they don't benefit from Klan traits AND they are 30ppm for slow infantry that have heavy gunz. And a 4+ won't do anything for them when they get blasted off the table by basically every -ap gun the enemy has because why wouldn't you delete the easy target that costs 150pts for 5 models.

I had them in a Bastion a few times - seemed quite fun, with Heavy Bolters as well and I think now the bastion can claim objectives anyway

Has ramshackle been confirmed as a 6+++?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Has ramshackle been confirmed as a 6+++?

I think MWG said it won't stack with snakebites so yeah its a 6+ FNP

Sunny Side Up wrote:
So what?

Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.

Have we got confirmation that Mek Guns have Klan Kulture? Because I thought no grot units got it.

EDIT: Confirmed, Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword, and thus cannot receive Kultur traits.

heres an idea to maybe make lootas good.

mob up a squad of 10 and 15
have them either deathskull or badmoons for improving shooting
stick them in terrain if possible for cover save
have a squad of 30ish grots nearby with runtherd to keep them from running.
when the lootas are targeted then you activate grotshield
lootas still get their saves before grots are removed
use double shoot strat (badmoon only i think) to shoot twice (not sure how many cp it costs)
lootas x25 (425)
grots x30 (90)
runtherd (35? hard to see the price)
and 2 total command pts for some survivable lootas with decent enough dakka
might be good, might not. worth trying out.

also i hear that the traktor kannon just autohits (flat out, no requirement) and is now 46ish range. might be good enough to replace the kmk as the mekgun of choice

edit
personal opinoon on what i see.
the codex is a lateral move.
we got some good stuf, some meh stuf, some bad stuf, and some great stuff.
the codex seems like its a return to "toys before boys" (personally i prefer this, but i do understand why green tide players would be upset)

 Glane wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
So what?

Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.

Have we got confirmation that Mek Guns have Klan Kulture? Because I thought no grot units got it.

EDIT: Confirmed, Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword, and thus cannot receive Kultur traits.

Wait really? That super sucks. Badmoons is looking less appealing now

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Glane wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
So what?

Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.

Have we got confirmation that Mek Guns have Klan Kulture? Because I thought no grot units got it.

EDIT: Confirmed, Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword, and thus cannot receive Kultur traits.

Wait really? That super sucks. Badmoons is looking less appealing now

still some confusions, some say it says "comprised entirly out of gretchin" witch would exclude the mek gun if that is true. maybe they only want grot squads not affected by kultures (kinda fluffy, but not very competitive).

Sunny Side Up wrote:
So what?

Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.

Mek gunz can't get Klan rules.

geargutz wrote:


still some confusions, some say it says "comprised entirly out of gretchin" witch would exclude the mek gun if that is true. maybe they only want grot squads not affected by kultures (kinda fluffy, but not very competitive).

Since Mek Guns (and Killa Kans for that matter) have the Gretchin keyword, they're Gretchin units. There's no confusion on that. It's just how keywords work in 8th. The actual name of the unit is entirely irrelevant.

You can see this clearly in just about every Codex stratagem. Completely at random, let's take Blasphemous Machines from Codex: CSM. It states "Use this Stratagem just before a HERETIC ASTARTES VEHICLE attacks in the Shooting phase." There's no unit entry called Heretic Astartes Vehicle in the codex. But there are units with Heretic Astartes and Vehicle keyword, thus making them viable targets. The name of the unit doesn't matter to the rules in the slightest. It's all about the keywords. Even Tide of Traitors, which targets a Chaos Cultist unit, only works on Chaos Cultists because they have the keyword Chaos Cultists.

 Glane wrote:

geargutz wrote:


still some confusions, some say it says "comprised entirly out of gretchin" witch would exclude the mek gun if that is true. maybe they only want grot squads not affected by kultures (kinda fluffy, but not very competitive).

Since Mek Guns (and Killa Kans for that matter) have the Gretchin keyword, they're Gretchin units. There's no confusion on that. It's just how keywords work in 8th. The actual name of the unit is entirely irrelevant.

You can see this clearly in just about every Codex stratagem. Completely at random, let's take Blasphemous Machines from Codex: CSM. It states "Use this Stratagem just before a HERETIC ASTARTES VEHICLE attacks in the Shooting phase." There's no unit entry called Heretic Astartes Vehicle in the codex. But there are units with Heretic Astartes and Vehicle keyword, thus making them viable targets. The name of the unit doesn't matter to the rules in the slightest. It's all about the keywords. Even Tide of Traitors, which targets a Chaos Cultist unit, only works on Chaos Cultists because they have the keyword Chaos Cultists.

Well the unit name does sometimes matter.
Using CSMs again as an example, there's a stratagem that works on Helbrutes (but not HELBRUTES), which means it can only be used with the Helbrute unit datasheet from the codex and not all the HELBRUTES made by Forgeworld.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Well the unit name does sometimes matter.
Using CSMs again as an example, there's a stratagem that works on Helbrutes (but not HELBRUTES), which means it can only be used with the Helbrute unit datasheet from the codex and not all the HELBRUTES made by Forgeworld.

Do the helbrutes from Forgeworld have the keyword Helbrute? Because the Helbrute in Codex: CSM does.

 Glane wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Well the unit name does sometimes matter.
Using CSMs again as an example, there's a stratagem that works on Helbrutes (but not HELBRUTES), which means it can only be used with the Helbrute unit datasheet from the codex and not all the HELBRUTES made by Forgeworld.

Do the helbrutes from Forgeworld have the keyword Helbrute? Because the Helbrute in Codex: CSM does.

They do have the keyword.
But the stratagem doesn't call out HELBRUTES, only Helbrutes. So it only works with the unit with the codex Helbrute that's called "Helbrute", and not the special ones from FW (because they aren't called "Helbrute", they have special fancy names).

so there is a slim chance it means a unit comprised entirely out of gretchin (models) instead of gretchin (keyword)?
it would seem weird to state the way they did. they could've just said "any unit with gretchin keyword". we definitely need to ask and hopefully FAQ has an answer.

I haven't seen the rule text, but if it states GRETCHIN then they can't benefit from Kulturz.
If it just says Gretchin models then Mek Gunz (and probably Killa Kanz) are safe.
However given how the reviews have been talking about the rule, I assume it's based on the keyword.

Well if anyone was wondering if certain people will never truly be satisfied with the great things they get, this thread proves it. While I can understand the disappointment some have with certain units, its pretty clear the ork codex as a whole is fantastic. Stuff like a tractor kannon mek guns, deff dreads, boyz, grots, storm boyz, killa kanz, deff rolla battlewagons, deff killa wartrikes, etc, etc are all fantastic options. For those complaining about point increases, remember that all those units could nearly make it top tables despite lacking kultures, stratagem support, and other new special rules. If they stayed where they where at points wise, I guarantee people would have been demanding point increases for them by the time chapter approved arrived. To me most of the naysayers are just mad that their pet units stayed bad or appears 'worse' on the surface. Either that or they just are willfully ignoring the impact that kultures, stratagems, rule changes, and point decreases on previously poor units will have on the army because they feel entitled to blatantly OP rules. Being disappointed that stuff like the Stompa are clearly still bad is fine. Decrying the whole codex as being bad because it isn't obviously better than the most OP codex in the game right is basically trolling.

 JimOnMars wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Backfield?What does backfield really matter? If more than 5 crew were at the backfield you were doing something wrong. The grot crews were one of the best units on the whole index...Not certanly most killyness but not every model needs to be super killy.

If you just look at the kill power of unit then you are missing a ton. Grot crews were supposed to be anywhere BUT backfield. And whether gun died or not was irrelevant. Most of your crew wouldn't be anywhere near one anyway. All the gun deaths would mean would be last one would be free to move around as well.

So A 2 point gunless grot was that much better than a 3 point one with a gun? Sure, they could objective camp, but using "Take Cover" to steal objectives after the gun is gone was just a bogus exploit, and doing so made you That Guy.

Is that what you were doing with them? If so good riddance.

3 point gun but which could be shot at will. 5 grots with guns aren't uber dangerous anyway. Especially as they weren't often in range anyway. You DO realize value is not just killyness? If unit's job involves being outside of range of gun swapping gun for 50% point drop and high surviviability is excelent deal. That's like kindergarden level of miniature game tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Dark Reapers are even more expensive per wound. Quit whining.

You realize right cost of models isn't just point per wound_ No wonder you are always wrong with your statements since you think wounds are only thing that matter in point costing units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
So what?

Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.

Ah yes you are good author on what\s good when you are already planning to cheat Codex not even out yet and you plan to cheat with it...