Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"Gravis is T5, 3+.

And honestly, I'd rather see, if we were gonna make Marines tougher, a complete rework of most units' Toughness and Strength values.

Make Marines T6, Guardsmen T4, Dreadnoughts T10, Land Raiders T12 or 14. We can have stats over 10 now-use that."

I can't disagree strongly enough...but merely because the suggestion you make would require a re-do of every single weapon in the game. Should they have used the stats more fluidly when creating 8th edition? Probably, but weapons and unit toughness, etc. are all quite cleverly aligned at the moment. Certain silly changes which don't look big, are much bigger than they often appear. Do you want a Toughness 4 Guardsman who is wounded by lasguns on a 5+, or bolters on a 4+? I doubt it. The kind of change you're asking for would require an entire game re-write, not a simple buff in stat lines.

Dreadnoughts at T10 would also be a 5+ to wound with a lascannon, etc. You will not see those kind of changes in 8th edition, I can guarantee.

The race to bottom is 8th ed. There is no design space for marines after they published Custodes. The only thing left is to get cheaper. Dissy cannons pick us up like grots. We need to be priced closer to grots. Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
"Gravis is T5, 3+.

And honestly, I'd rather see, if we were gonna make Marines tougher, a complete rework of most units' Toughness and Strength values.

Make Marines T6, Guardsmen T4, Dreadnoughts T10, Land Raiders T12 or 14. We can have stats over 10 now-use that."

I can't disagree strongly enough...but merely because the suggestion you make would require a re-do of every single weapon in the game. Should they have used the stats more fluidly when creating 8th edition? Probably, but weapons and unit toughness, etc. are all quite cleverly aligned at the moment. Certain silly changes which don't look big, are much bigger than they often appear. Do you want a Toughness 4 Guardsman who is wounded by lasguns on a 5+, or bolters on a 4+? I doubt it. The kind of change you're asking for would require an entire game re-write, not a simple buff in stat lines.

Dreadnoughts at T10 would also be a 5+ to wound with a lascannon, etc. You will not see those kind of changes in 8th edition, I can guarantee.

Lascannons would be S14.

bananathug wrote:
The problems with termies are lack of offensive output and limited mobility, IMHO.

Regular termies, replace regular powerfist stats with +1 attack, +2 str, -2 ap, 1d, let them mount 2x storm bolters, let the heavy use grav/plasma (1mw on overheat)/melta,AC,dual HB, 2+WS/BS, invlun to a 4++, 3rd wound and allow them to teleport shunt for 1 cp (basic deepstrike but can do it from on the table, not a strat so multiple units can do it?)

Assault termies add 1-2 to movement and charge/advance rolls. Can charge after advancing. No negatives to hit rolls for melee weapons. +1 str, 3w, 4++, 3rd wound, teleport shunt and maybe a native -1 to hit vs shooting attacks outside of 12.

With all that at current cost I think they'd see the table (they may even need a couple more points). I don't want them cheaper as the race to the bottom isn't a war that marines should try to win (leave that to guard).

Rather than a lack of offensive/defensive capabilities, it's just that there are far more viable/efficient platforms for what termies do.

Currently, termies don't have a niche they excel at, so one never bothers looking at termies to fill a specific role. If they were good at/better than other units at even one aspect of the game, they would be worth looking at despite the cost. Yet, termies fail to do anything meaningful for it's point cost.

It would be cool to see if asstermies have some sort of charge based benefits (i.e. roll 3, use highest two; reroll dice)

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it agin, problem with terminators is that so many other things do what they did and do it better. When first introduced they were the only 2+ save, marines were 4+, they were the only deep striking unit and their weapons were unique. Now so many units do the same or better so a complete rework is prob needed or a unique rule, like 1+.

Spartacus wrote:
This isn't just a Codex Space Marines problem guys. Whatever it is, it needs to be something that can be applied to the TERMINATOR keyword. Otherwise you'd have to go back and errata all the codexes that have terminator armoured guys(i.e most of them).

THIS right here is why I always propose WS/BS2+ and then seeing where points are to be adjusted for appropriate durability. This is for a few reasons:
1. This makes them much more independent from being, well, dependent on HQ units
2. It represents the Vet status even more of only the most elite troops getting access to these rare suits
3. It helps all weapon loadouts instead of just a few of them

Now the only Terminator that just needs to be stupidly cheaper is the troop Grey Knight variant, as those dudes are still pretty new. However there are several issues with the Grey Knight codex so...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
This isn't just a Codex Space Marines problem guys. Whatever it is, it needs to be something that can be applied to the TERMINATOR keyword. Otherwise you'd have to go back and errata all the codexes that have terminator armoured guys(i.e most of them).

THIS right here is why I always propose WS/BS2+ and then seeing where points are to be adjusted for appropriate durability. This is for a few reasons:
1. This makes them much more independent from being, well, dependent on HQ units
2. It represents the Vet status even more of only the most elite troops getting access to these rare suits
3. It helps all weapon loadouts instead of just a few of them

Now the only Terminator that just needs to be stupidly cheaper is the troop Grey Knight variant, as those dudes are still pretty new. However there are several issues with the Grey Knight codex so...

Not to rain on your parade, but even if they would just buff their profile, like you said, i would still pay on the low pts. end (CSM Terminators) 37pts per terminator. I have to run 5 of them so in the end you pay minimum 185 pts. Remember this is the cheapest possible terminator of regular CSM/SM terminators there is to my knowledge.
Their loadout for that is lackluster, either beeing equipped with energy swords or energy maces and a combibolter. Now let's do the math. for 185 pts i get 14.23.... regular CSM or 46 cultists or 11.5 chosen, etc
And this there is the problem: just a comparision with other basic troop choices respectively another elite choice with similiar anti infantery loadouts shows that i can do their job on the cheaper side and profit from CSM stratagems more. Because doubleshooting is still vastly superior on more base shots than on a better "elite" unit.
Now you could argue that their equipment makes them better suited for melee, except their Attack statistic let's them down harder then a sack of bricks fall from a skyscraper. Yes they still out punch the regular chaos marines with a A2 but 14 csm have more attacks, the 46 cultists will anyways have more attacks, the chosen have also 2 attacks each and get double the numbers, infact if i cut the 1,5 chosen i can throw in equally if not better melee wepon choices.
And since Plague marines are also a possible Elite/troop choice that is nearly equally as durable i don't even need to explain why their durability and their 2+ armor is often overrated in pts.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
This isn't just a Codex Space Marines problem guys. Whatever it is, it needs to be something that can be applied to the TERMINATOR keyword. Otherwise you'd have to go back and errata all the codexes that have terminator armoured guys(i.e most of them).

THIS right here is why I always propose WS/BS2+ and then seeing where points are to be adjusted for appropriate durability. This is for a few reasons:
1. This makes them much more independent from being, well, dependent on HQ units
2. It represents the Vet status even more of only the most elite troops getting access to these rare suits
3. It helps all weapon loadouts instead of just a few of them

Now the only Terminator that just needs to be stupidly cheaper is the troop Grey Knight variant, as those dudes are still pretty new. However there are several issues with the Grey Knight codex so...

Not to rain on your parade, but even if they would just buff their profile, like you said, i would still pay on the low pts. end (CSM Terminators) 37pts per terminator. I have to run 5 of them so in the end you pay minimum 185 pts. Remember this is the cheapest possible terminator of regular CSM/SM terminators there is to my knowledge.
Their loadout for that is lackluster, either beeing equipped with energy swords or energy maces and a combibolter. Now let's do the math. for 185 pts i get 14.23.... regular CSM or 46 cultists or 11.5 chosen, etc
And this there is the problem: just a comparision with other basic troop choices respectively another elite choice with similiar anti infantery loadouts shows that i can do their job on the cheaper side and profit from CSM stratagems more. Because doubleshooting is still vastly superior on more base shots than on a better "elite" unit.
Now you could argue that their equipment makes them better suited for melee, except their Attack statistic let's them down harder then a sack of bricks fall from a skyscraper. Yes they still out punch the regular chaos marines with a A2 but 14 csm have more attacks, the 46 cultists will anyways have more attacks, the chosen have also 2 attacks each and get double the numbers, infact if i cut the 1,5 chosen i can throw in equally if not better melee wepon choices.
And since Plague marines are also a possible Elite/troop choice that is nearly equally as durable i don't even need to explain why their durability and their 2+ armor is often overrated in pts.

At no point did slayer say that points shouldn't go down, he is pointing out that currently marine vets gain very little for their increased pointa cost especially terminators. Making them WS2+,BS2+ Actually allows them to leverage their expensive power weapons etc to better effect and less aura dependent.

GW doesn't have design space to make terminators 3W as your just making custodes at that point. The only other option is to make them cheaper but at the points cost where a WS3+, BS3+ model with 2 wounds works is silly low. Look at primaris marines, so they need to be shock troops doing lots of damage and to force the enemy to deal with them. Without going mad with complicated rules (GW won't in 8th edition) you need a simple quick way to up their damage output that does that meaning the probably only need to drop to 30 somthing points instead of the 20 something range which GW wouldn't allow.

"Now the ONLY Terminator that just needs to be stupidly cheaper is the troop Grey knight variant....."

I am sorry? Is that not exclusive? I also regard a price cut of 7-10pts for regular termis to be 30pts with equipment as quite massive.

Not Online!!! wrote:
"Now the ONLY Terminator that just needs to be stupidly cheaper is the troop Grey knight variant....."

I am sorry? Is that not exclusive? I also regard a price cut of 7-10pts for regular termis to be 30pts with equipment as quite massive.

To me stupidly cheaper is in the 40to 50% range. 20 to 25% isn't unheard of, GW have already dropped some units that sort of points heck intercessors went for 22 to 18 thats 20% drop and they're still meh. When they hit 16 points they might be viable. So about a 30% price drop just to make a basic troops choice competitive.

The long story short is GW 40k designers arn't too good at maths.

Just for curiosity, if we don't change the unit profile where would you realisticly set up my exemple CSM Terminators?
Also would minimum Squadsize for Terminators of 3 be a good thing? Along the line of the old suicide Termis?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Just for curiosity, if we don't change the unit profile where would you realisticly set up my exemple CSM Terminators?
Also would minimum Squadsize for Terminators of 3 be a good thing? Along the line of the old suicide Termis?

GW style number from thin air without weapons 25ppm.

With special terminators costed as they are above current terminators above that new baseline.
With WS2+,BS2+ that might be a bit too good but for WS3+,BS3+ it is probably a tad conservative.

But you need a start point for play testing, whats your thoughts?

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Just for curiosity, if we don't change the unit profile where would you realisticly set up my exemple CSM Terminators?
Also would minimum Squadsize for Terminators of 3 be a good thing? Along the line of the old suicide Termis?

GW style number from thin air without weapons 25ppm.

With special terminators costed as they are above current terminators above that new baseline.
With WS2+,BS2+ that might be a bit too good but for WS3+,BS3+ it is probably a tad conservative.

But you need a start point for play testing, whats your thoughts?

With the gakky above loadout (Energy mace and combibolter 6pts.) and with a lot of margin of error and say they are worth the 6 pts and the base model is the reason for the overcosting, i'd say inbetween 20-24 pts per terminator without equipment. The aim would be that Terminators would cost around 30 pts a piece with basic equipment. Still on the low ROF end but atleast workable.

I'd probably also allow min 3 Terminator squads again and allow them to take a heavy weapon and another one if they are 6 or more. because let's be honest. Nobody ever used a 10 man Terminator squad probably.

I like all of the following (some proposed earlier, some not):
-Reduce points by ~8ppm
-Allow 2 per 5 Heavys on Tac Termies
-Drop minimum squad to 3
-Allow a la carte CC weapons for Assault Termies

I don't think this would make them super powerful, but it would make them more viable. I think they'd be fair, but due to role concerns they'd see more use in casual games than competitive games. Competitive list building just doesn't need a 'rook' style unit short of a LoW, due to how they play.

Bharring wrote:
I like all of the following (some proposed earlier, some not):
-Reduce points by ~8ppm
-Allow 2 per 5 Heavys on Tac Termies
-Drop minimum squad to 3
-Allow a la carte CC weapons for Assault Termies

I don't think this would make them super powerful, but it would make them more viable. I think they'd be fair, but due to role concerns they'd see more use in casual games than competitive games. Competitive list building just doesn't need a 'rook' style unit short of a LoW, due to how they play.

Allow ALL Termis to chose a la carte period. Seriously there is no reason that my CSM IW splinter can do it and a SM chapter can't.

I don't like the WS/BS2+ idea. In the absence of initiative, WS seems to have some reflection of "speed". That's why Powerfists are -1 to hit.
Terminators are big bulky hulks. They shouldn't be "fast", which means WS2+ should be out of the question unless you are a Character.
However, I do think Termies should ignore the -1 to hit with their fists, as the armour aids in "lifting" it. So keep Termies at WS3+, but give them "Terminator Power fists" that are exactly like regular fists, but do not have -1 to hit.

I also like the idea of all Terminator equivalents having a min squad size of 3. But sadly GW will not do this as all Termie boxes include 5 models, so the squad size will always be min 5.

-

 Galef wrote:
I don't like the WS/BS2+ idea. In the absence of initiative, WS seems to have some reflection of "speed". That's why Powerfists are -1 to hit.
Terminators are big bulky hulks. They shouldn't be "fast", which means WS2+ should be out of the question unless you are a Character.
However, I do think Termies should ignore the -1 to hit with their fists, as the armour aids in "lifting" it. So keep Termies at WS3+, but give them "Terminator Power fists" that are exactly like regular fists, but do not have -1 to hit.

I also like the idea of all Terminator equivalents having a min squad size of 3. But sadly GW will not do this as all Termie boxes include 5 models, so the squad size will always be min 5.

-

Wasn't always the case my friend. Sometime back CSM termies could be taken in min 3 squads, normally you gave them combimelta, shocked behind a tank and watched the fireworks for i belive 105/pts.
Granted it was a cheesy tournament strategy, but if we could nowadays take a min 3 squad it might be worth it for a tactical reserve to get that reaper autocannon and combi plasma at the right time in the right position.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Wasn't always the case my friend. Sometime back CSM termies could be taken in min 3 squads, normally you gave them combimelta, shocked behind a tank and watched the fireworks for i belive 105/pts.
Granted it was a cheesy tournament strategy, but if we could nowadays take a min 3 squad it might be worth it for a tactical reserve to get that reaper autocannon and combi plasma at the right time in the right position.

Oh yes, I remember those days well. My point is that since 8th dropped, GW has made very specific changes to ensure min unit sizes match the models in the box in many case.
Chaos Termie box has 5 models, so they bumped the min unit size to 5 and are unlikely to go back.

I'd love if Termie equivalents went to min size 3. It would make sense and make them easier to play. GW could even keep the restriction that you need 5 to take the special weapons like Reaper Autocannons or Typhoon Missiles.
This could even extend to Eldar Wraithguard, making it possible to put a unit in a Falcon, which gives them more reason to be taken (although not much)
I just don't see it happening

-

Squad size of terminators is ideally 3 - 5, yes. That makes the minimum points to take them lower, also the background is that their codes standard size is 5, so there should be an option for under- strength squads. I would say 3 with one or two heavy weapons and five with two or three, as long as they are all different heavy weapons, and then drop the heavy weapon points to five since they have to be mixed.

However, instead of making lists of things that GW might change speculatively, it’s easier to actually play games by making tournament packs with the ch aged rules. I don’t want to make points or unit comp changes when people are bringing their standard tournament or store game night TAC lists, which barely have terminators anyway. So unit size or points changes are ideal to me but practically they are only a little important because I want the changes to work without a casual player having to change their army list.

That’s also why the power fist, ws and bs changes in the thread don’t work for me. Most armies don’t have the option for terminators and marine armies that are competitive don’t take them, so it’s sort of obscure to make a rule for terminators when you might see them in one game out of three. To fix the power fist problem you can just drop the -1 from all power fists in imperial and chaos armies, and all power klaws. That makes it much more worth the space to put that rule in the tournament pack.

I’d also like to buff power weapons, to compensate for power fists being puffed like that beyond the existing price difference, but that is more space in the tournament pack, so it’s tempting to let the imbalance remain.

Then there’s this ws/ bs change, that would let heavy weapons hit on 3+. Terminators have been hitting on 3+ with shooting and against guardsmen since 1999, and they have been bad while they were doing that. As a change to a single unit among many, that just isn’t major enough.

With just the game wide power fist change, terminators are still bad. So they need a rule that buffs termie and that affects more than just terminators or marine armies.

In the shooting phase, models add -1 to their shooting attack if they have more attacks on their profile than the saving model.

In the shooting phase, units that fail their save may re-roll it as a 5+ invulnerable save, as long as they are in cover and have more attacks on their profile than the model that shot them.

That’s a tournament pack as it applies to terminators, that also helps nobs and flash gits (currently bad), chosen (bad), basic crisis suits (bad), IG characters (buff machines), and solo shooting characters (bad and nonexistent). That’s much bette than saying here try these house rules, they are buffs for a niche/minority unit from already-popular armies. That’s what you have to think about when you don’t want to just speculate about GW and you’re in an environment where people care about things other than terminators.

This is 8th edition having 2 versions of the same weapon with different points and stats isn't going to happen outside of relics.
So thats the powerfists without a -1 idea dead, also how would that help LC, chain fist, Thunderhammers & power weapon terminators? It doesn't, so you haven't actually adressed the terminator problem your fiddling with the level of sucky.

Flat WS2+ with the -1 from the fists and hammers gets you back to the 3+ you wanted, but helps every weapon.
Same with BS2+ these are supposed to be the most trusted veterans if they aren't good enough to be 2+,2+ then we need to ditch the D6 system as a space marine vet and a guard vetran shooting the same is crazy.

I'm not infavour of the 3man squad size. It goes against everything GW is designing 8th around. It's 1 box equals a unit.

Also reducing the overhead so Chaos can cram in more combi and heavy weapons deepstriking is just going to be seen as trying to create the next plasma scion unit and will have people complaining and terminators stay in the suck to bad to play pile.

And heck no. Powerfists imperium wide should NOT lose the -1 to hit it is fair trade for the strength and AP bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pelicaniforce wrote:
Squad size of terminators is ideally 3 - 5, yes. That makes the minimum points to take them lower, also the background is that their codes standard size is 5, so there should be an option for under- strength squads. I would say 3 with one or two heavy weapons and five with two or three, as long as they are all different heavy weapons, and then drop the heavy weapon points to five since they have to be mixed.

However, instead of making lists of things that GW might change speculatively, it’s easier to actually play games by making tournament packs with the ch aged rules. I don’t want to make points or unit comp changes when people are bringing their standard tournament or store game night TAC lists, which barely have terminators anyway. So unit size or points changes are ideal to me but practically they are only a little important because I want the changes to work without a casual player having to change their army list.

That’s also why the power fist, ws and bs changes in the thread don’t work for me. Most armies don’t have the option for terminators and marine armies that are competitive don’t take them, so it’s sort of obscure to make a rule for terminators when you might see them in one game out of three. To fix the power fist problem you can just drop the -1 from all power fists in imperial and chaos armies, and all power klaws. That makes it much more worth the space to put that rule in the tournament pack.

I’d also like to buff power weapons, to compensate for power fists being puffed like that beyond the existing price difference, but that is more space in the tournament pack, so it’s tempting to let the imbalance remain.

Then there’s this ws/ bs change, that would let heavy weapons hit on 3+. Terminators have been hitting on 3+ with shooting and against guardsmen since 1999, and they have been bad while they were doing that. As a change to a single unit among many, that just isn’t major enough.

With just the game wide power fist change, terminators are still bad. So they need a rule that buffs termie and that affects more than just terminators or marine armies.

In the shooting phase, models add -1 to their shooting attack if they have more attacks on their profile than the saving model.

In the shooting phase, units that fail their save may re-roll it as a 5+ invulnerable save, as long as they are in cover and have more attacks on their profile than the model that shot them.

That’s a tournament pack as it applies to terminators, that also helps nobs and flash gits (currently bad), chosen (bad), basic crisis suits (bad), IG characters (buff machines), and solo shooting characters (bad and nonexistent). That’s much bette than saying here try these house rules, they are buffs for a niche/minority unit from already-popular armies. That’s what you have to think about when you don’t want to just speculate about GW and you’re in an environment where people care about things other than terminators.

Orks codex isn't out yet so you have no way of know what is or isn't going to be good. Index at this point is an joke due to codex creep and can't be used for discussion of future balance.
Crisis suits just need BS3 or a points drop that's it, simple.
IG charictors don't need buffs they exsist to shout orders and recycle CP.

You mean assasins they were in a lot of lists untill the batlle brothers rule made including them in a detachment borderline impossible.

You realise that trash rules are the main reason people don't play marine terminators. Same with crisis suits. Righting rules that effect units no-one plays is what is needed to make them playable.
Buffing units people already play aswell still leaves the unplayable units unplayable.

 Galef wrote:
I don't like the WS/BS2+ idea. In the absence of initiative, WS seems to have some reflection of "speed". That's why Powerfists are -1 to hit.
Terminators are big bulky hulks. They shouldn't be "fast", which means WS2+ should be out of the question unless you are a Character.
However, I do think Termies should ignore the -1 to hit with their fists, as the armour aids in "lifting" it. So keep Termies at WS3+, but give them "Terminator Power fists" that are exactly like regular fists, but do not have -1 to hit.

I also like the idea of all Terminator equivalents having a min squad size of 3. But sadly GW will not do this as all Termie boxes include 5 models, so the squad size will always be min 5.

-

WS would be a reflection of both. So it doesn't make sense that the Power Fist is hitting at the same rate as a Lightning Claw or Power Sword, and on top of that you're ignoring ALL the other loadouts that need help. It isn't just the Power Fist that isn't good.

Plus their Power Fist would end up having to cost differently, as you're stupid not to pay 7-8 points for a weapon that hits at the same rate but does drastically more towards larger targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
"Now the ONLY Terminator that just needs to be stupidly cheaper is the troop Grey knight variant....."

I am sorry? Is that not exclusive? I also regard a price cut of 7-10pts for regular termis to be 30pts with equipment as quite massive.

Outside Terminator Grey Knight troops, all other Terminator variants are basically the best of the best of the best (with honors), and trusted with those suits. The basic Grey Knight Terminator is actually more new to everything.

Remember I'm for this proposed change on Paladins, so with an appropriate cost Paladins can be Custodes lite!

WS/BS2+ would certainly help from a balance standpoint. I won't deny that. I just don't know how anyone can justify it from a fluff standpoint.
And yes, fluff needs to matter. It's why Termies have a 2+ armour in the first place, because they have more armour IN THE FLUFF than a standard Marine. It's also why Termies move 5" instead of 6", because the armour is heavy and bulky

So unless we retcon Terminator armour to somehow enhance a standard Marine's speed and accuracy, WS/BS2+ would purely be a game-play change that has no respect or regard for the fluff. There has to be a way to do both.

-

 Galef wrote:
WS/BS2+ would certainly help from a balance standpoint. I won't deny that. I just don't know how anyone can justify it from a fluff standpoint.
And yes, fluff needs to matter. It's why Termies have a 2+ armour in the first place, because they have more armour IN THE FLUFF than a standard Marine. It's also why Termies move 5" instead of 6", because the armour is heavy and bulky

So unless we retcon Terminator armour to somehow enhance a standard Marine's speed and accuracy, WS/BS2+ would purely be a game-play change that has no respect or regard for the fluff. There has to be a way to do both.

-

They're very advanced vets and the suits are pretty advanced. You can easily argue for WS/BS2+

I'm also for WS2+ on Vanguard and BS2+ on Sternguard to actually give them a niche instead of being inferior to a bunch of units, but that's a different topic of conversation.

Yeah, I'd be ok with it overall, since it is a really good game-play change for them. And at the very least, they still have slow movement to reflect the bulky armour.

So what are we thinking overall? WS/BS2+ and about -5ppm?
I'm also for min squad size 3 with 1 heavy weapon option, and 2 heavies at 5+ models.
All those changes should make Termies quite appealing.

-

 Galef wrote:
Yeah, I'd be ok with it overall, since it is a really good game-play change for them. And at the very least, they still have slow movement to reflect the bulky armour.

So what are we thinking overall? WS/BS2+ and about -5ppm?
I'm also for min squad size 3 with 1 heavy weapon option, and 2 heavies at 5+ models.
All those changes should make Termies quite appealing.

-

I dunno about 5 points but 3-4.

Grey Knights troop Terminators need 5 points off full stop though.

 Galef wrote:
WS/BS2+ would certainly help from a balance standpoint. I won't deny that. I just don't know how anyone can justify it from a fluff standpoint.
And yes, fluff needs to matter. It's why Termies have a 2+ armour in the first place, because they have more armour IN THE FLUFF than a standard Marine. It's also why Termies move 5" instead of 6", because the armour is heavy and bulky

So unless we retcon Terminator armour to somehow enhance a standard Marine's speed and accuracy, WS/BS2+ would purely be a game-play change that has no respect or regard for the fluff. There has to be a way to do both.

-

LOL. Fluff matters not at all. 8th ed has already diverged so far from fluff, that it's a non-factor.

Martel732 wrote:
LOL. Fluff matters not at all. 8th ed has already diverged so far from fluff, that it's a non-factor.

Poor execution of the rules is not the same as ignorance of the background. Fluff is still THE driving force when GW makes rules. They might suck at it, but that doesn't mean fluff doesn't matter.

Fluff might be the vague "idea" behind something, but fluff has always been disregarded in the game itself...where you simply don't have marines from the novels/movies, etc. It would make for a poor game. Terminators haven't been tough since 2nd edition - and they've never probably been represented as they would be in the fluff.

There's a reason we don't have Space Marine armies consisting of 8-12 models, etc.

 Elbows wrote:
Fluff might be the vague "idea" behind something, but fluff has always been disregarded in the game itself...where you simply don't have marines from the novels/movies, etc. It would make for a poor game. Terminators haven't been tough since 2nd edition - and they've never probably been represented as they would be in the fluff.

There's a reason we don't have Space Marine armies consisting of 8-12 models, etc.

Because that doesn't sell models?

I kid. Some fluff is absolutely over the top, but the thing with the Space Marine fluff is that even the lower end of that is STILL over the top.

I'm not talking about the fluff that 1 Marine can take on 100 Orks by himself.
I'm talking about the fluff that a Marine is better than an Ork in general. The rules do indeed capture this. Marine have better BS and armour and access to better weapons.

Terminators, likewise, have better armour than a Marine in the fluff. Hence the 2+ over 3+. Whether that translates into "true" improved durability in the game has no barring on whether the fluff was the driving force behind that decision.

I could see an argument be made that since Terminators are veteran Marines, that they could in fact have WS/BS2+. I was merely pointing out that there is contradiction to this rationale if you think about heavier weapons like powerfists, which have -1 to hit for being bulky and slow.
But since Termies would also get this -1 to hit while using these kinds of weapons, I can agree that suffering the -1 to hit twice wouldn't make sense.

If you want to say the GW isn't very good at translating rules from fluff, I agree with that. But saying "fluff has never mattered" is just nonsense.
Stats and special abilities exist because a unit can do X in the fluff, so they need a rule/stat that can do X in the game.

-

There's always been an argument for Terminators to be proper veterans - they were just one of many (many!) units who got dumped on by the start of 3rd edition and never recovered from it.

They originally shared the same stats as Veterans, who in turn enjoyed the following advantages over a normal marine: +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 Initiative, and +1 Leadership.

They were originally WS/BS 5 which translated into 2+ before modifiers. What's important though is that a normal squad of Terminators (5 models) with power fists and stormbolters cost 315 points, where a normal 10 man Tactical Squad (bolters, bolt pistol, etc.) was 300 points.

So they had doubly tough armour, better stats but also didn't cost the crazy cost they are now (when compared to normal marines). They were still one wound models at this point.