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It would add a layer to the game but having armor classes would be awesome

Light armor / flak.
Power armor / crisis
Terminator armor / equivalent

And each would have some blanket bonus to it.

ie power armor ignores the first point of AP
Terminator armor ignores the first two points of AP

Something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But really power fists suck these days. I miss when terminators used to be able to rip a tank apart in one turn of hand to hand. It was amazing. How the mighty have fallen

Ultimately, the problem with Terminators is that they are not worth 192 points.

You're not going to see 2+ WS/BS Terminators, because 2+'s are reserved for heroes (and that army of heroes know as the Adeptus Custodes).

You're not going to see a special bonus to their resilience because that will step on the rules for other especially resilient units (like Thousand Sons with their All is Dust Rule).

So the real question to ask is how many points are they actually worth? Certainly 192 (nearly the cost of 15 bare bone Tactical Marines or 10 Bolt Rifle Intercessors) is wrong. What should it really be? That's how you make them worthwile.

Terminators are a squad of heroes. And should be 2+/2+ A space marine with decades of combat experience at a minimum should easily have a superior skill level than a standard marine. Not to mention they have superior equipment

warpedpig wrote:
Terminators are a squad of heroes. And should be 2+/2+ A space marine with decades of combat experience at a minimum should easily have a superior skill level than a standard marine. Not to mention they have superior equipment

Marines all have decades of combat experience - they are not scouts for a short period. However not saying that Veterans shouldn't get it - most "veteran" units get a similar bonus.

Terminator armour is all about durability hence the 2+/5++ save.

So we have quite a few solutions :
Unlikely:
-Min 3 squads
-A la carte weaponry
-Bs/ws 2
-Reduction of AP values.

Likely
-Pts change estimated around -4-10 per Terminator

What about if the Armour was 1+ - it would still fail on a 1 but be more resiliant to -1AP/-2AP weapons saving them ona 2+ and 3+?

In the transition from 7th to 8th, the cost of a Terminator didn't change significantly.

IMO GW failed to realize that the reduction of melee attacks for most units paired with the change of vehicles using Toughness, Wounds and Saves instead of Armor and Hull Points made Terminators overcosted.

Another thing that I think makes the point cost too high is the invulnerable save. When AP was all or nothing, the invulnerable save was valuable against plasma and lascannons, but in 8th many armies don't have weapons with AP -4 and most of the weapons that have are antitank, so those will probably shoot at tanks first.

This means you rarely profit from the invulnerable save even though you pay some points for it.

 Mr Morden wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
Terminators are a squad of heroes. And should be 2+/2+ A space marine with decades of combat experience at a minimum should easily have a superior skill level than a standard marine. Not to mention they have superior equipment

Marines all have decades of combat experience - they are not scouts for a short period. However not saying that Veterans shouldn't get it - most "veteran" units get a similar bonus.

Terminator armour is all about durability hence the 2+/5++ save.

You have a point about Scouts, which is why people were annoyed with the iteration two editions ago giving them giving them WS3 and BS3 (so basically fighting and well as Guard Infantry).

The suits have durability, but the suits are mostly used for the shock strike and reserved only for the best of the best (with honors). WS/BS2+ isn't a lot to ask for and then we can see what other fixes each individual squad needs after that. We need to see what works with the best versions of Terminators right now, which is why other blanket fixes have been pretty silly.

Not Online!!! wrote:
So we have quite a few solutions :
Unlikely:
-Min 3 squads
-A la carte weaponry
-Bs/ws 2
-Reduction of AP values.

Likely
-Pts change estimated around -4-10 per Terminator

Or 3W and +1A over current.

I'd say give them:

- Minimum unit size 3
- Grant 1+ rerollable armor (still fails on a 1)
- Grant +1 wound
- Any model can replace Storm Bolter with a Special or Heavy weapon.

warpedpig wrote:
Terminators are a squad of heroes. And should be 2+/2+ A space marine with decades of combat experience at a minimum should easily have a superior skill level than a standard marine. Not to mention they have superior equipment

Terminators are not heroes. They are Veterans, one and all. That's why they have +1 Attack and +1 Leadership over normal marines. The exact same stats as all the other veteran units, which is also the same stats as unit Sergeants, who are also "veterans" assigned to lead less experienced marines.

Add to that that there are numerous Space Marine characters who are not 2+/2+ and it seems a bit unreasonable to think this is the right solution to Terminator's lack of effectiveness.

IMHO, the best solutions are proper point values along with a speciality Stratagem to allow you to get a nice "shock and awe" action on them at some point in the game.

And that’s not just veteran space marines, it’s veteran dark eldar, the trueborn and blood brides, it’s veteran Sisters, the celestians, it’s veteran tau, the shas’ui who command fire warrior squads are the same rank as basic crisis pilots and they don’t get skill bonuses they get +1 a and +1 Ld. Imperial guard sergeants also have +1 Ld and A, and the guard veteran squad, unlike every other veteran squad already named, are not a specially recruited unit they are remnants of destroyed platoons andncinoanies, or at least they explicitly were that when they first got their +1 bs with no +1 A.

The first companies don’t recruit for skill.

 alextroy wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
Terminators are a squad of heroes. And should be 2+/2+ A space marine with decades of combat experience at a minimum should easily have a superior skill level than a standard marine. Not to mention they have superior equipment

Terminators are not heroes. They are Veterans, one and all. That's why they have +1 Attack and +1 Leadership over normal marines. The exact same stats as all the other veteran units, which is also the same stats as unit Sergeants, who are also "veterans" assigned to lead less experienced marines.

Add to that that there are numerous Space Marine characters who are not 2+/2+ and it seems a bit unreasonable to think this is the right solution to Terminator's lack of effectiveness.

IMHO, the best solutions are proper point values along with a speciality Stratagem to allow you to get a nice "shock and awe" action on them at some point in the game.

I'd argue that Librarians and Chaplains in Terminator being granted the WS/BS2+ as well if my fix is agreed on (it doesn't give a lot of incentive to run Terminator HQ, but it is a bonus), but neither of those guys are actually Veterans in the same sense, as they clearly branched off in a different path. Librarians especially so.

They die a little too easily to specialized weapons.
Improving their save to +1 would help them slightly against all weapons.
Alternately, giving them a special rule that means they take only half damage (rounded down to a minimum of 1) would make them a little bit tougher against specialized weapons.

Tylendal wrote:
They die a little too easily to specialized weapons.
Improving their save to +1 would help them slightly against all weapons.
Alternately, giving them a special rule that means they take only half damage (rounded down to a minimum of 1) would make them a little bit tougher against specialized weapons.

Why would you make them more durable to weapons that were designed to kill them? That makes no sense.

They need dual assault cannons at lower cost. Or atleast 2 heavy bolter pistols...

They also need fnp6+ at least. And a strategem to redeploy 9" away from enemies after any turn they already arrived on table to act as teleportation.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tylendal wrote:
They die a little too easily to specialized weapons.
Improving their save to +1 would help them slightly against all weapons.
Alternately, giving them a special rule that means they take only half damage (rounded down to a minimum of 1) would make them a little bit tougher against specialized weapons.

Why would you make them more durable to weapons that were designed to kill them? That makes no sense.

Because as it is right now, weapons designed to kill Terminators are too good at their job. Anti-terminator weapons should be fairly effective against terminators, yeah, but right now, they basically just evaporate them.

Tylendal wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tylendal wrote:
They die a little too easily to specialized weapons.
Improving their save to +1 would help them slightly against all weapons.
Alternately, giving them a special rule that means they take only half damage (rounded down to a minimum of 1) would make them a little bit tougher against specialized weapons.

Why would you make them more durable to weapons that were designed to kill them? That makes no sense.

Because as it is right now, weapons designed to kill Terminators are too good at their job. Anti-terminator weapons should be fairly effective against terminators, yeah, but right now, they basically just evaporate them.

Agreed plasma guns kill termies with just one shot, with only a 5+ save protecting them. If terminators had 3W they would become 100% more resistant to plasma while becoming only 50% more resistant to small arms fire as a consequence. Giving them an additional +1A would also go a long way towards upping their damage output too. That way you don't have to reduce their points. The only other way to balance terminators is reduce their points cost, and I personally would like to see marines get BETTER as opposed to CHEAPER.

Marines are supposed to be the most "elite" army, behind custodes and GK.

Gotta go horde-like to be any good in 8th. Elites are dead.

A few simple ideas based on what others have said too

- Increase BS/WS to 2+. These are supposed to be veterans so why not the skillset to match.

- Decrease base points cost from 26 to 22 or maybe 20. Deathwing knights are currently 50 points! They need to be 35-40 at least.

- Special rule where they ignore AP-1 attacks.

- +1 Wound.

- More weapon options. Deathwatch Terminators are currently the most versatile as 3 can have heavy weapons in squads of 3 as well as all of them having power swords instead of fists.

Keep the present point cost but give them:

+1 A
Remove 5++ and give them a 4+ roll on any damage received to reduce damage by 1 (minimum 1)

This way you make them much scarier in the fight, and make them a bit less reliably taken down by D2 and Dd3 weapons. Still properly countered by D3+ and multiple high rend single damage shots.

How about increase the cost of plasma weapons...

Spoletta wrote:
Keep the present point cost but give them:

+1 A
Remove 5++ and give them a 4+ roll on any damage received to reduce damage by 1 (minimum 1)

This way you make them much scarier in the fight, and make them a bit less reliably taken down by D2 and Dd3 weapons. Still properly countered by D3+ and multiple high rend single damage shots.

First off: Movement of 5--> slow---> not good for melee. +1 attack is not good enough ergo
Secondly: That would make Terminators even worse. If anything give them a 4+ invuln save and call it a day, which is a really bad solution imo.
Thirdly: Meleethreat that allready get's shot out of town and still can't manage to get enough melee attacks for their points is no meleethreat.

Martel732 wrote:
Gotta go horde-like to be any good in 8th. Elites are dead.

I see no reason why elite armies couldn't work if pointed appropriately. They would still need chaff screens like every army does, but you can still have a space marine army with cheaper chaff units... like say 9 point scouts with 1W?

w1zard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gotta go horde-like to be any good in 8th. Elites are dead.

I see no reason why elite armies couldn't work if pointed appropriately. They would still need chaff screens like every army does, but you can still have a space marine army with cheaper chaff units... like say 9 point scouts with 1W?

Also there are Eldar and Dark Eldar, which do well enough now, don't they?

Not Online!!! wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gotta go horde-like to be any good in 8th. Elites are dead.

I see no reason why elite armies couldn't work if pointed appropriately. They would still need chaff screens like every army does, but you can still have a space marine army with cheaper chaff units... like say 9 point scouts with 1W?

Also there are Eldar and Dark Eldar, which do well enough now, don't they?

I thought Custodes were doing ok?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tylendal wrote:
They die a little too easily to specialized weapons.
Improving their save to +1 would help them slightly against all weapons.
Alternately, giving them a special rule that means they take only half damage (rounded down to a minimum of 1) would make them a little bit tougher against specialized weapons.

Why would you make them more durable to weapons that were designed to kill them? That makes no sense.

Terminators should be resilient to everything. They pay enough points to need to reduce all incoming damage significantly.

So armour 1+ Terminators - would that make enough difference?

 Mr Morden wrote:
So armour 1+ Terminators - would that make enough difference?

At their current price point? That would basically give them 4+ saves against plasma in the open. Seems pretty reasonable. After that - Probably give them +1 attack base and give them a rule like (Always hits on 3's).

Also - QOL fixes like 2/5 assault for heavy weapons. Sargent ability to take storm sheild. That kind of stuff.

My only issue with 1+ armour is that it really makes their Invul save situational. I like it, but it creates another problem.

I do like the "always hits on 3+" for WS and BS. I like that better than WS/BS2+. Along with an extra melee attack.
---------------

This is what I am currently thinking:

All Terminator equivalents get +1 wound (really all Marine equivalents too) as this will reflect their resilience to small arms fire, as well as balancing for Plasma. Also give them a minimum of 3 melee attacks, Sgts get 4.
Receive a rule like "Stable platform: units with this rule always hit on 3+ regardless of modifiers"
Give Leader equivalents like Sergeants WS/BS2+

Finally, I would make the minimum unit size 3, but you wouldn't get access to the special weapon unless you take 5, but you can take 2 per 5.
So you can take 3, but you'll want 5 in most cases to get 2 Reaper launchers, or Typhoon Missile Launchers or Assault cannons, etc.
Chaos Termies might still do only 3 as they can take all Combi-weapons.

The main thing is that by giving them a rule to "always hit on 3+" you give them back a "niche" that few other units can do. Especially in the meta of -1 to hit army traits

-