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Plasma can and should be good at killing TEQs. But it should have to work for it. Currently, you only need to just be in Rapid Fire Range, or Overcharge for a single Plasma to kill a single TEQ, but not really both.
By giving TEQs 3 wounds, it forces Plasma to work for a living. You now have to get close AND Overcharge.

Yes, re-roll 1s makes this much less risky, but fundamentally the risk is there.

At the end of the day, there is no single change that will fix TEQs. But I filmily believe 3 simple changes will address 99% of their issues:
+1 wound for durability
+1 attack for added melee efficiency
"Always hits on 3+" for shooting efficiency and a counter-meta "niche"

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Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

Plasma still wounds on 2+ and bypasses the armor. That's still really good. I can imagine cheaper models getting that. It would be fine. Lots of multi-damage options out there.

 Galef wrote:
At the end of the day, there is no single change that will fix TEQs. But I filmily believe 3 simple changes will address 99% of their issues:
+1 wound for durability
+1 attack for added melee efficiency
"Always hits on 3+" for shooting efficiency and a counter-meta "niche"

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I've been play-testing the first two of those and it makes terminators a very good option. I don't know if 'the always hits on 3+' is needed, because part of their offensive output is through melee and they're better off with a stratagem that allows them to get close enough to shoot more with rapid fire weaponry, or attain more shots which can be gained through stratagems.

Though the problem with the above is how do these changes interact with characters in terminator armor that don't and shouldn't gain those bonuses, and how does it change non-standard terminators that would become incredibly good or over-powered with those bonuses--such as death guard terminators or custodes. If they don't receive them, what's the reasoning behind it. But that's more on the immersion level than balance and the game has already broken much of its previous immersion anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I get the impression that terminator armor is much thicker than aircraft armor. Also, the point yield per failed save is just too high. They're not just weak, it's catastrophic. On the right board, it's worse than plasma because of range.

For the current "elite" infantry to work, 2 damage weapons need to be rare and valuable. Instead, they're cheap and plentiful. That means that elites need more than 2 wounds. To me, this is not negotiable in the current game.

I agree. At the very least Termies need one of 2 changes:
A) +1 wound. This is simple, prevents being 1 shot by overcharge Plasma. Downside is that it cannot be applied wholesale to all TEQs because some would end up with 4+ wounds.
OR
B) A special rule for all Terminator Armour that replaces the Invul save with an Damage Reduction by 1. Not as elegant as +1 wound, but could potentially be applied to all TEQs

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Well the problem I have with is - plasma is supposed to be good at killing terms. A change like this quite literally makes the weapon the worst choice for killing TEQ. +1 wound is a much better fix as it only nerfs plasma wounds by 50% - not 100%.

This, which is why i suggested that the crux does not flat out reduce damage by 1, but reduces damage by 1 on a roll of 4+. Now plasma and disintegrators are good against them, but not THAT good.

Two-shotting is sufficient. Especially when Xenos can do it from 36" away.

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I get the impression that terminator armor is much thicker than aircraft armor. Also, the point yield per failed save is just too high. They're not just weak, it's catastrophic. On the right board, it's worse than plasma because of range.

For the current "elite" infantry to work, 2 damage weapons need to be rare and valuable. Instead, they're cheap and plentiful. That means that elites need more than 2 wounds. To me, this is not negotiable in the current game.

I agree. At the very least Termies need one of 2 changes:
A) +1 wound. This is simple, prevents being 1 shot by overcharge Plasma. Downside is that it cannot be applied wholesale to all TEQs because some would end up with 4+ wounds.
OR
B) A special rule for all Terminator Armour that replaces the Invul save with an Damage Reduction by 1. Not as elegant as +1 wound, but could potentially be applied to all TEQs

-

Well the problem I have with is - plasma is supposed to be good at killing terms. A change like this quite literally makes the weapon the worst choice for killing TEQ. +1 wound is a much better fix as it only nerfs plasma wounds by 50% - not 100%.

This, which is why i suggested that the crux does not flat out reduce damage by 1, but reduces damage by 1 on a roll of 4+. Now plasma and disintegrators are good against them, but not THAT good.

This is effectively the same thing as +1W against plasma. Except it doesn't address their weakness vs other weapons - which they are also too weak against (like battle cannons). So far - +1 wound seems to be the best solution for them.

If you go the +1 wound route you are impacting too many models. That alteration to the crux that i suggested can be applied to all existing terminator models without excessive impacts or need to touch other models (like custodes).

That said, battle cannons suffer a lot from that rule, i would have to do some math, but i suspect that it is really close to having a third wound. If you give them 3 wounds then they are basically impossible to kill with too many weapons.

We can raise that to 3+ though, if you think that's not enough.

Spoletta wrote:
If you give them 3 wounds then they are basically impossible to kill with too many weapons.

Wraithguard (Eldar's version of Terminators) have 3 wounds and they die just fine to plenty of weapons. They may not have 2+/5++, but they are T6, so they take less wounds overall.
Even with 3 wounds, TEQs would still die to focused fire. Plasma would still be a go-to option to delete them. +1 wound makes them more durable vs. D1 or D2 weapons, but anything D3+ still drops them. This is how Termies should work.
Now, trading their 5++ for a rule that reduces damage by 1 is a great second choice, but it does nothing to change how TEQs die to small arms fire (yes having 2 wounds vs prior editions is meant to cover this, but it sadly doesn't). Having +1W accomplishes both. It's elegant and uncomplicated.

Remember, Termies are slow and rely on other means to get close, none of which work on the first turn (beta rules prevent arriving outside deployment on T1 and transports would have to move for 1 turn). So you are spending a lot of points to do nothing for 1 turn or more.
They should be durable enough to foot-slog. Being "all but immune" to small arms fire helps.

But even being more durable and having +1 attack doesn't help them "stand out". They need something extra. "Always hits on 3+" makes that happen.

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Spoletta wrote:If you go the +1 wound route you are impacting too many models. That alteration to the crux that i suggested can be applied to all existing terminator models without excessive impacts or need to touch other models (like custodes).

Too many models like the super TDA units, but also far too few models because their siblings the chaos chosen and PA wolf guard are still completely forgotten. They should all get a 5++ save after their armor save if the model that shot them has fewer attacks. Yeah it buffs custodes and nurgle, but it also buffs people who are absolutely forgettable and bad.

Galef wrote:
Remember, Termies are slow and rely on other means to get close, none of which work on the first turn (beta rules prevent arriving outside deployment on T1 and transports would have to move for 1 turn). So you are spending a lot of points to do nothing for 1 turn or more.
They should be durable enough to foot-slog. Being "all but immune" to small arms fire helps.
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Yes this is how they are supposed to work.

Always hits on threes

See I would suggest that except I expect people to point out that terminators can't have relentless if land raiders and hammerheads don't get it too.

lets see...how well does a 5 man termiantor for 200 points survive against an IG batallion of equal points. Thats 2 CC and 4 Infantry squads. Or in other words....its 4x40 (FRFSRF) las gun shots. Which averages 5 wounds to the terms.
That is 100 points of damage to the terminator unit. (this from a unit that is supposedly useless and only brought to generate command points)
The terms average 6 wounds with 20 bolter shots - that is 24 points of damage to the IG - maybe 2-3 will die from morale but...this is still basically over from the stand point of attrition. Plus we aren't even facotiring the potential cover save on the IG...which the terms can't even benefit from in this scenario.

Again - terminators are way to easy to kill per their points with basically every weapon in the game. It is the first thing that needs to be fixed.

Now...that is pretty pathetic that a unit that is supposed to be functionally immune to small arms. Loses half of it's value to equal points of small arms. It's beyond pathetic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

pelicaniforce wrote:

Spoletta wrote:If you go the +1 wound route you are impacting too many models. That alteration to the crux that i suggested can be applied to all existing terminator models without excessive impacts or need to touch other models (like custodes).

Too many models like the super TDA units, but also far too few models because their siblings the chaos chosen and PA wolf guard are still completely forgotten. They should all get a 5++ save after their armor save if the model that shot them has fewer attacks. Yeah it buffs custodes and nurgle, but it also buffs people who are absolutely forgettable and bad.

Galef wrote:
Remember, Termies are slow and rely on other means to get close, none of which work on the first turn (beta rules prevent arriving outside deployment on T1 and transports would have to move for 1 turn). So you are spending a lot of points to do nothing for 1 turn or more.
They should be durable enough to foot-slog. Being "all but immune" to small arms fire helps.
-

Yes this is how they are supposed to work.

Always hits on threes

See I would suggest that except I expect people to point out that terminators can't have relentless if land raiders and hammerheads don't get it too.

Land raiders do get it. Hammerheads? Sure - lots of vehicles should flat out ignore penalties for moving and shooting. 100% agree with that. long-strike does (and hes auto include) so taking a few hammerheads with him the are also equally relentless with the bonus of hitting on 2's if they stay still.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Always hits on threes

See I would suggest that except I expect people to point out that terminators can't have relentless if land raiders and hammerheads don't get it too.

But you can still rationalize it in 2 ways.
1) Terminators are "Veteran" Marines, so their is additional skill to account for
2) TDA is not "piloted". It's a suit you wear. Pilots and crew have a degree of separation from the vehicle itself. A suit acts more like an extension of the wearer.

So an experienced warrior wearing a sophisticated suit makes more sense to be "relentless" than a somewhat trained pilot in a big bulky warmachine.
Also keep in mind, I am suggesting this particular change as a way to give TEQs something special that other options in their armies do not have

But if the "Always hit on 3+" doesn't work for you, I'd still be ok with WS/BS2+ as a second choice.

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I'm not a SM player, but reading that Tactical Squads have only 1 wound is crazy. Crazy that's its been so for as long as I can remember. These are the poster-boys, the Emperor's avenging angels, acid spitting muscle bound super warriors and the pinnacle of mankind's fighting ability. Terminator armour should be absolutely tough as nails. I don't think they especially need better weapon or ballistic skills, these are ponderous and cumbersome suits, but certainly something to indicate their unmatched durability as they plod forward. All weapon damage being reduced to one is a great suggestion. If there isn't one already, perhaps negate the BS reduction for moving with Heavy weaponry?

It used to be that Terminators mainly arrived via teleporter and designed to fight in relatively confined spaces as space hulk, hive spires rather than plod across a battelfield.

 sphynx wrote:
I'm not a SM player, but reading that Tactical Squads have only 1 wound is crazy. Crazy that's its been so for as long as I can remember. These are the poster-boys, the Emperor's avenging angels, acid spitting muscle bound super warriors and the pinnacle of mankind's fighting ability. Terminator armour should be absolutely tough as nails. I don't think they especially need better weapon or ballistic skills, these are ponderous and cumbersome suits, but certainly something to indicate their unmatched durability as they plod forward. All weapon damage being reduced to one is a great suggestion. If there isn't one already, perhaps negate the BS reduction for moving with Heavy weaponry?

Yes, I have suggested several times that all standard Marines, Chaos and Loyalist, should receive +1wound across the board (except Characters). It just makes too much sense in this edition.

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But if the "Always hit on 3+" doesn't work for you,

always hits on 3+ works for me personally, in a vacuum. I just try to a) come up with the most selective rules for my play group with the fewest special cases, and b) anticipate the criticism that it'll get from discussions like this.

For example I'm not sure it powers them up much and I'd definitely need to drop some other rules, like the invulnerable save. The flat skill boost is unacceptable from the get go, that's for sanguinary guard and paladins.

I'm not a SM player, but reading that Tactical Squads have only 1 wound is crazy. Crazy that's its been so for as long as I can remember. These are the poster-boys, the Emperor's avenging angels, acid spitting muscle bound super warriors and the pinnacle of mankind's fighting ability.

it's pretty simple, I don't want to have two wounds on every one of 45 models that only carry bolters and a couple of plinky heavy weapons.

 Galef wrote:

 sphynx wrote:
I'm not a SM player, but reading that Tactical Squads have only 1 wound is crazy. Crazy that's its been so for as long as I can remember. These are the poster-boys, the Emperor's avenging angels, acid spitting muscle bound super warriors and the pinnacle of mankind's fighting ability. Terminator armour should be absolutely tough as nails. I don't think they especially need better weapon or ballistic skills, these are ponderous and cumbersome suits, but certainly something to indicate their unmatched durability as they plod forward. All weapon damage being reduced to one is a great suggestion. If there isn't one already, perhaps negate the BS reduction for moving with Heavy weaponry?

Yes, I have suggested several times that all standard Marines, Chaos and Loyalist, should receive +1wound across the board (except Characters). It just makes too much sense in this edition.

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Same points cost? Seems a bit extreme.

pelicaniforce wrote:

But if the "Always hit on 3+" doesn't work for you,

always hits on 3+ works for me personally, in a vacuum. I just try to a) come up with the most selective rules for my play group with the fewest special cases, and b) anticipate the criticism that it'll get from discussions like this.

For example I'm not sure it powers them up much and I'd definitely need to drop some other rules, like the invulnerable save. The flat skill boost is unacceptable from the get go, that's for sanguinary guard and paladins.

I'm not a SM player, but reading that Tactical Squads have only 1 wound is crazy. Crazy that's its been so for as long as I can remember. These are the poster-boys, the Emperor's avenging angels, acid spitting muscle bound super warriors and the pinnacle of mankind's fighting ability.

it's pretty simple, I don't want to have two wounds on every one of 45 models that only carry bolters and a couple of plinky heavy weapons.

I already do it on 40+ models in my full primaris army. It is insanely easy to do. It's not difficult to track. Wounded models are required to take the damage first so you never need more than 1 wound counter per squad. Half the time you don't even need one because you take an even number of damage...plus lots of weapons kill you outright even with 2 wounds. bolter being too weak is another issue that basically everyone will agree...The bolter should be better. So should a lot of weapons though. Ap -1 seems to be the best fix or reroll wounds vs infantry. Something like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 sphynx wrote:
I'm not a SM player, but reading that Tactical Squads have only 1 wound is crazy. Crazy that's its been so for as long as I can remember. These are the poster-boys, the Emperor's avenging angels, acid spitting muscle bound super warriors and the pinnacle of mankind's fighting ability. Terminator armour should be absolutely tough as nails. I don't think they especially need better weapon or ballistic skills, these are ponderous and cumbersome suits, but certainly something to indicate their unmatched durability as they plod forward. All weapon damage being reduced to one is a great suggestion. If there isn't one already, perhaps negate the BS reduction for moving with Heavy weaponry?

Yes, I have suggested several times that all standard Marines, Chaos and Loyalist, should receive +1wound across the board (except Characters). It just makes too much sense in this edition.

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Same points cost? Seems a bit extreme.

Hummm - it's not that extreme. They are insanely overcosted as is. It is hard to really figure exactly if they need a points adjustment with the changes.

My suggested adjustment has been that secondis marines get 2 wounds and go to 14 points base. Primaris gets 3 wounds and goes to 20 points base. Gravis and Term units go to 3 wounds and have a 5 point increase and get 4++ saves.

2 wound Tactical Marines would probably need a cost bump, but no more than 1-2ppm. There are currently overcosted and +1 wound is only going to help against some weapons, but be wholly irrelevant vs others. But the point is to make them more durable to small arms fire, which +1 wound would do.

TEQs going from 2W to 3W is similar, but also protects them slightly from D2 weapons as well.

"Special" MEQs and TEQs like Deathwing Knights, Paladins, Occult Termies, etc need to be handled individually as to whether they get +1W or something different, but Tac Marines, Bikes, Assault Marines, Chaos Marines, regular Termies, etc. Yeah, those all can get +1W for little to no points increase.

Keep in mind that I do not play Marines, but play against them often enough

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The problem with Terminators is a systemic problem with Elites choices throughout the game.

For most Elites choices, they appear to be priced against their Troop analogue with a % increase for their "betterness" and then an extra % is tacked on top of that. The problem with that second % is it goes the wrong way.

Elites should be relatively cheaper than Troops, not relatively more expensive.

If you somehow had an Elites choice that was exactly twice as tough and exactly twice the offense, it would still be the worse choice even if it were exactly twice the cost.

There are two reasons:
1. Troops is a better slot. They give both more command points and score objectives easier.
2. More models is always better than fewer models. In a game of randomness, you want more chances for the randomness to come out even.

Terminators are already substantially better than their Troop analogues outside of cost (even against Intercessors): better offense, better toughness, better deployment option.

But not only are they more expensive than the percent they are better, they also aren't Troops. That's doubling down on cost inefficiency.

If any unequipped Terminator were 18 points (which is roughly what they're worth compared to the things they are most similar to in their own armies), you wouldn't see threads like this.

They don't need any significant rules rewrite, they just need internal consistency on their cost.

The same goes for nearly every Elite in the game that is essentially a "better" Troop.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

I'm for a small price drop too. I simply don't want extreme fixes like most of these when we are working with a D6 system.

The D6 really makes it so there is no design space for terminators.

Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

 Stormonu wrote:
Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

Because 2 attacks is pathetic for an elite unit. 1 attack is equally pathetic for a space marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

I'm for a small price drop too. I simply don't want extreme fixes like most of these when we are working with a D6 system.

I would prefer a fix that puts marine elites like terminators in the neighborhood of custodes performance on the table top - costing slightly less to be slightly weaker. Any fix which allows terms to be fielding efficiently I am all for.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

Because 2 attacks is pathetic for an elite unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

I'm for a small price drop too. I simply don't want extreme fixes like most of these when we are working with a D6 system.

I would prefer a fix that puts marine elites like terminators in the neighborhood of custodes performance on the table top - costing slightly less to be slightly weaker. Any fix which allows terms to be fielding efficiently I am all for.

So to get my thoughts kinda altogether, I made a thread a while ago, my way to kinda differentiate the Marine elites without touching the point costs yet:
1. Sternguard become BS2+
2. Vanguard become WS2+
3. Terminators become both
4. Honour Guard get larger squad sizes and an extra attack
5. Command Squad dudes get touched on price by dropping a point

And of course I have SEVERAL more thoughts about what I would do to the Vanilla Codex and the CSM codex, but that's neither here or there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

Because 2 attacks is pathetic for an elite unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

I'm for a small price drop too. I simply don't want extreme fixes like most of these when we are working with a D6 system.

I would prefer a fix that puts marine elites like terminators in the neighborhood of custodes performance on the table top - costing slightly less to be slightly weaker. Any fix which allows terms to be fielding efficiently I am all for.

So to get my thoughts kinda altogether, I made a thread a while ago, my way to kinda differentiate the Marine elites without touching the point costs yet:
1. Sternguard become BS2+
2. Vanguard become WS2+
3. Terminators become both
4. Honour Guard get larger squad sizes and an extra attack
5. Command Squad dudes get touched on price by dropping a point

And of course I have SEVERAL more thoughts about what I would do to the Vanilla Codex and the CSM codex, but that's neither here or there.

Even with these changes each one of those units is still significantly overcosted. Though they are much more effective changes for the PA guys with your ideas. BS2 sterngaurd are almost at the point where they are useable. IMO the place marines really struggle the most is durability.

Update:

Our local group played with our simple Terminator changes (3 Wounds, -8 Points per model). Feedback was generally positive, but it was an odd game (they teleported into the backfield and chased tanks around the board). Will continue to update you guys with our feedback. We'll be rolling with these changes until we decide yay or nay. The nice thing is it's a very simple change which doesn't fundamentally change any core concepts/rules applied to them.

Martel732 wrote:
The D6 really makes it so there is no design space for terminators.

If GW had made use of the change that profile values are not capped at 10 in 8th, there'd be enough for terminators. But then they decided that no non-titanic vehicle should have more than 8 Toughness.

 Elbows wrote:
Update:

Our local group played with our simple Terminator changes (3 Wounds, -8 Points per model). Feedback was generally positive, but it was an odd game (they teleported into the backfield and chased tanks around the board). Will continue to update you guys with our feedback. We'll be rolling with these changes until we decide yay or nay. The nice thing is it's a very simple change which doesn't fundamentally change any core concepts/rules applied to them.

That personally reminds me to strong of the suicide terminator days long gone.
Ehh, i guess atleast they are usefull is that case?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

Because 2 attacks is pathetic for an elite unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

I'm for a small price drop too. I simply don't want extreme fixes like most of these when we are working with a D6 system.

I would prefer a fix that puts marine elites like terminators in the neighborhood of custodes performance on the table top - costing slightly less to be slightly weaker. Any fix which allows terms to be fielding efficiently I am all for.

So to get my thoughts kinda altogether, I made a thread a while ago, my way to kinda differentiate the Marine elites without touching the point costs yet:
1. Sternguard become BS2+
2. Vanguard become WS2+
3. Terminators become both
4. Honour Guard get larger squad sizes and an extra attack
5. Command Squad dudes get touched on price by dropping a point

And of course I have SEVERAL more thoughts about what I would do to the Vanilla Codex and the CSM codex, but that's neither here or there.

Even with these changes each one of those units is still significantly overcosted. Though they are much more effective changes for the PA guys with your ideas. BS2 sterngaurd are almost at the point where they are useable. IMO the place marines really struggle the most is durability.

Marines are okay already for durability. If you want more than that, you have options (Iron Hands and Raven Guard, Alpha Legion). My issue is offense entirely.