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 Stormonu wrote:
Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

I can imagine a 3-punch combo - a hook to backhand to a haymaker.
For hammers, a diagonal front swing, horizontal back swing, to a vertical 12-to-6 slam
For swords, cross-slash to full slash
For claws, even two swings seem unlikely however.

Trollbert wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The D6 really makes it so there is no design space for terminators.

If GW had made use of the change that profile values are not capped at 10 in 8th, there'd be enough for terminators. But then they decided that no non-titanic vehicle should have more than 8 Toughness.

I've got issues with this too. They had a system where they could be creative with the stats and basically chickened out by keeping everything the same basically.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

Because 2 attacks is pathetic for an elite unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

I'm for a small price drop too. I simply don't want extreme fixes like most of these when we are working with a D6 system.

I would prefer a fix that puts marine elites like terminators in the neighborhood of custodes performance on the table top - costing slightly less to be slightly weaker. Any fix which allows terms to be fielding efficiently I am all for.

So to get my thoughts kinda altogether, I made a thread a while ago, my way to kinda differentiate the Marine elites without touching the point costs yet:
1. Sternguard become BS2+
2. Vanguard become WS2+
3. Terminators become both
4. Honour Guard get larger squad sizes and an extra attack
5. Command Squad dudes get touched on price by dropping a point

And of course I have SEVERAL more thoughts about what I would do to the Vanilla Codex and the CSM codex, but that's neither here or there.

Even with these changes each one of those units is still significantly overcosted. Though they are much more effective changes for the PA guys with your ideas. BS2 sterngaurd are almost at the point where they are useable. IMO the place marines really struggle the most is durability.

Marines are okay already for durability. If you want more than that, you have options (Iron Hands and Raven Guard, Alpha Legion). My issue is offense entirely.

They really aren't man. The are the most fragile army in the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

Because 2 attacks is pathetic for an elite unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

I'm for a small price drop too. I simply don't want extreme fixes like most of these when we are working with a D6 system.

I would prefer a fix that puts marine elites like terminators in the neighborhood of custodes performance on the table top - costing slightly less to be slightly weaker. Any fix which allows terms to be fielding efficiently I am all for.

So to get my thoughts kinda altogether, I made a thread a while ago, my way to kinda differentiate the Marine elites without touching the point costs yet:
1. Sternguard become BS2+
2. Vanguard become WS2+
3. Terminators become both
4. Honour Guard get larger squad sizes and an extra attack
5. Command Squad dudes get touched on price by dropping a point

And of course I have SEVERAL more thoughts about what I would do to the Vanilla Codex and the CSM codex, but that's neither here or there.

Even with these changes each one of those units is still significantly overcosted. Though they are much more effective changes for the PA guys with your ideas. BS2 sterngaurd are almost at the point where they are useable. IMO the place marines really struggle the most is durability.

Marines are okay already for durability. If you want more than that, you have options (Iron Hands and Raven Guard, Alpha Legion). My issue is offense entirely.

They really aren't man. The are the most fragile army in the game.

Agreed. Fix the durability of the army and the offense will follow (because more models will be alive to contribute).

Martel732 wrote:
Because they will always suffer disproportionately from any amount of AP. And 2 damage weapons if you go the "tack on a wound" route. You need 3 wounds minimum to be "elite" in 8th.

Yes, I agree. I was supporting 3W and +1A terminators.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

Because 2 attacks is pathetic for an elite unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

I'm for a small price drop too. I simply don't want extreme fixes like most of these when we are working with a D6 system.

I would prefer a fix that puts marine elites like terminators in the neighborhood of custodes performance on the table top - costing slightly less to be slightly weaker. Any fix which allows terms to be fielding efficiently I am all for.

So to get my thoughts kinda altogether, I made a thread a while ago, my way to kinda differentiate the Marine elites without touching the point costs yet:
1. Sternguard become BS2+
2. Vanguard become WS2+
3. Terminators become both
4. Honour Guard get larger squad sizes and an extra attack
5. Command Squad dudes get touched on price by dropping a point

And of course I have SEVERAL more thoughts about what I would do to the Vanilla Codex and the CSM codex, but that's neither here or there.

Even with these changes each one of those units is still significantly overcosted. Though they are much more effective changes for the PA guys with your ideas. BS2 sterngaurd are almost at the point where they are useable. IMO the place marines really struggle the most is durability.

Marines are okay already for durability. If you want more than that, you have options (Iron Hands and Raven Guard, Alpha Legion). My issue is offense entirely.

They really aren't man. The are the most fragile army in the game.

Agreed. Fix the durability of the army and the offense will follow (because more models will be alive to contribute).

Least durable? Definitely with some units, but compare to armies like Necrons (destroy the squad and their durability they pay for doesnt actually exist), Deathwatch and Grey Knights (the latter needing obvious fixes but both being Marines +1 makes them more fragile, though the former actually functions to an extent), and Eldar/Dark Eldar (where their offense kinda fixes the matter that they aren't durable) I never bought the argument. I say that as someone who has been defending Marine players on this forum from the pestering of people not properly understanding the army's core issues.

DE ARE durable. Do the math. It's depressing as hell.

Martel732 wrote:
DE ARE durable. Do the math. It's depressing as hell.

The vehicles and the Haemonculus stuff are. The rest of the army isn't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DE ARE durable. Do the math. It's depressing as hell.

The vehicles and the Haemonculus stuff are. The rest of the army isn't.

Not really, i belive what Martel wants to point out is that the durability of a SM is not worth it compared to other units with mostly similar stats. Or in the same category of tasks.
That can be best shown with CSM:
for one regular marine i get 3 1/4 cultist.
that are 2 1/4 W more then the marine, they vomit out more bullets and are overall better at filling troop taxes.
Take raw dmg output for exemple:
1 marine genereates one bolter shot. Hits in 2/3 of the cases and against a t3 unit wounds 2/3 of the time basically 4/9 or 0,44444444
3 cultists hit 1,5 times and wound 0,750 the same t3 target.

With cabalists it is even worse for the marine.
2 shots 2/3 of the time and then against infantery half the time. which gives a chance of wounding of 2/3 rds of the time.

Guardsmen are even worse for a marine comparison: FRFSRF
3x2 lasgun shots. 3 guaranteed hits and 1.5 wounds on a t3 target.

The simple fact that i have more W on diffrent models makes them more durable against high d and ap weaponry and ulitmately requires more shots overall to get these units of the battlefield.

Terminators are even worse in that regard.
one CSM Terminator with Energy mace and combibolter is 37 pts.
that are 9.25 cultists.
---> i won't go over the math again but simply put the dmg output is skewed and because terminators are supposed to be killers of infantery in most cases of the loadout, they can't bring in the points with their dmg, however their durability is significantly overpriced.

Edit: really should stop writting with such low ammounts of coffeine in my veins...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DE ARE durable. Do the math. It's depressing as hell.

The vehicles and the Haemonculus stuff are. The rest of the army isn't.

That only leaves the little dum dums who never get out of said vehicles. There's nothing else.

Marines: "The are the most fragile army in the game."

GK.
Harlies.
Corsairs.
CWE (better, but not more durable).

Sure, the average army is more durable per point right now. But they are *not* the most fragile army in the game. I'd argue that's Harlies, but it could also be GK depending on how you look at it.

Bharring wrote:
Marines: "The are the most fragile army in the game."

GK.
Harlies.
Corsairs.
CWE (better, but not more durable).

Sure, the average army is more durable per point right now. But they are *not* the most fragile army in the game. I'd argue that's Harlies, but it could also be GK depending on how you look at it.

But doesnt "most fragile" imply ppm basis? 13pt for 8M, advance and shoot, pseudo fly and 4++ is hardly fragile ppm.

Marines are indeed the most fragile per point. They pay for the privilege of power armour, but have very few "tricks" to reinforce it. GK are lumped into the "Marine" category here, but it is worse for them because they pay more

I might agree that Harlies may be more fragile, but they have speed and other tricks to make their fragility largely irrelevant.

CWE? You're kidding right? CWE have some of the hardest to kill units in the game. Even Guardians can be hard to shift with the right stratagem/psychic buffs.
It's the same with DE. Per point, the vehicles are pretty tough BECAUSE they are fragile. 5++ and being cheap is a good answer to traditional anti-tank weaponry. And the infantry rarely leave the transports, so you can't really take their fragility into account here.

In order to better represent the fluff and balance Marines to be competitive, standard Marines NEED to have +1W.
Scouts should be the only 1W models in the Astartes Codices.
Tac Marines - 2W
Bikes - 3W (Attack bikes - 4W)
Terminators - 3W
Assault Marines - 2W

"Special" Terminators like Paladins, Scarab Occult, DW Knights, etc should still only have 3W but can get WS/BS2+ to represent that they are Elite even amongst regular Termies. Obliterators are probably fine as they are.

-

'But doesnt "most fragile" imply ppm basis? 13pt for 8M, advance and shoot, pseudo fly and 4++ is hardly fragile ppm.'

Certainly. If it weren't on a PPM basis, the list would look like this:
-Everybody but GK, IK, and Custodes

And that 13pt model is certainly even more durable to Lascannons in the open than Tacs, per point. But for anything less than S8 *or* less than AP-3, 13pt T3 4++ is much more fragile than 13pt T4 3+.

There is a hell of a lot more firepower that kills T3 4++ faster than T4 3+ than vice versa.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Why give Terminators +1 Attack? They already have an extra attack above their tactical brethren, and I don’t really see them being able to swing power fists like a madman. Is this really a change designed for the melee terminators swinging swords, hammer and claws?

Because 2 attacks is pathetic for an elite unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - your fix would be acceptable if it came with something like a 10 points drop across the board for every terminator you are suggesting. 2 W with a 5+ save against special weapons is not worth 40 points no matter how you slice it. All special weapons do multi damage.

I'm for a small price drop too. I simply don't want extreme fixes like most of these when we are working with a D6 system.

I would prefer a fix that puts marine elites like terminators in the neighborhood of custodes performance on the table top - costing slightly less to be slightly weaker. Any fix which allows terms to be fielding efficiently I am all for.

So to get my thoughts kinda altogether, I made a thread a while ago, my way to kinda differentiate the Marine elites without touching the point costs yet:
1. Sternguard become BS2+
2. Vanguard become WS2+
3. Terminators become both
4. Honour Guard get larger squad sizes and an extra attack
5. Command Squad dudes get touched on price by dropping a point

And of course I have SEVERAL more thoughts about what I would do to the Vanilla Codex and the CSM codex, but that's neither here or there.

Even with these changes each one of those units is still significantly overcosted. Though they are much more effective changes for the PA guys with your ideas. BS2 sterngaurd are almost at the point where they are useable. IMO the place marines really struggle the most is durability.

Marines are okay already for durability. If you want more than that, you have options (Iron Hands and Raven Guard, Alpha Legion). My issue is offense entirely.

They really aren't man. The are the most fragile army in the game.

Agreed. Fix the durability of the army and the offense will follow (because more models will be alive to contribute).

Least durable? Definitely with some units, but compare to armies like Necrons (destroy the squad and their durability they pay for doesnt actually exist), Deathwatch and Grey Knights (the latter needing obvious fixes but both being Marines +1 makes them more fragile, though the former actually functions to an extent), and Eldar/Dark Eldar (where their offense kinda fixes the matter that they aren't durable) I never bought the argument. I say that as someone who has been defending Marine players on this forum from the pestering of people not properly understanding the army's core issues.

Necrons have a gimic though - fail to kill a unit - and they can all get up! True - I rarely let that happen but sometimes it's out of your control. Dice fail sometimes. Plus - I'd much rather be a destroyer than a hell-blaster. More toughness - more wounds - more mobility. Wraiths are super durable. Plus really...Warriors are too if you are willing to invest in a 20 man with ghost arc. Doomsday arc? Just forget about it. Literally will never die.

DE are certainly more durable per point. Kabs are dirt cheap. Wracks and Grots are super durable. No argument there.

Are you saying that T3 5+ are more durable than T4 3+, even per point at 8ppm vs 13ppm, because CWE can spend several command points and psykic powers and such to make them more durable? Well, sure, if you don't count the psker points and consider CP free. Before powers/CP, they die a lot faster per point to most weapons. As in, more than twice as fast to Boltguns and Lasguns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"They can all get up"? No more roll? I'm way behind on my Necrons. I didn't realize that they could do that. Or that only their opponents' dice can fail sometimes.

Bharring wrote:
'But doesnt "most fragile" imply ppm basis? 13pt for 8M, advance and shoot, pseudo fly and 4++ is hardly fragile ppm.'

Certainly. If it weren't on a PPM basis, the list would look like this:
-Everybody but GK, IK, and Custodes

And that 13pt model is certainly even more durable to Lascannons in the open than Tacs, per point. But for anything less than S8 *or* less than AP-3, 13pt T3 4++ is much more fragile than 13pt T4 3+.

There is a hell of a lot more firepower that kills T3 4++ faster than T4 3+ than vice versa.

harlequins always have at least 1 damage reduction mechanic going on. -1 to wound or hit usually. Plus the ability to buff invo saves and go -1 to hit on demand. Realistically - they are expensive ppw models but they aren't fragile like marines. At the very least you are rolling 4++ saves where my marines are probably rolling 5+ or 6+ saves. Not to mention the protection their mobility gives them.

Marines in general do not have invo saves on anything but their heros. Which basically just means vs a lot of weapons - you are just picking up models after they roll to wound.

We also aren't specifically comparing units, we are comparing the army as a whole. Aeldari have better transports, and the DE and Harlies have transports that do not degrade with damage.
Unlike Marines who can have their Transports/Tanks crippled and then ignored. Venoms and Starweavers have to be outright killed to remove them as a threat. And they are about as cheap as a Rhino.
Having to dedicate more firepower to fewer units means other units may go untouched. Aeldari also have the speed to be out of range of specific threats and the range to remove those threats before they actually are a threat.

Marines have decent rules for 8E. I really like how their vehicles and weapons translated from other editions. But now that "Instant Death" is not a rule and so many weapons cause multiple damage per shot, basic Marines should really have 2W and units with more "bulk" than a basic Marine should have 3Ws.

-

Bharring wrote:
DE are certainly more durable per point. Kabs are dirt cheap. Wracks and Grots are super durable. No argument there.

Are you saying that T3 5+ are more durable than T4 3+, even per point at 8ppm vs 13ppm, because CWE can spend several command points and psykic powers and such to make them more durable? Well, sure, if you don't count the psker points and consider CP free. Before powers/CP, they die a lot faster per point to most weapons. As in, more than twice as fast to Boltguns and Lasguns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"They can all get up"? No more roll? I'm way behind on my Necrons. I didn't realize that they could do that. Or that only their opponents' dice can fail sometimes.

Yeah ofc they have to roll. Slayer was trying to completely dismiss reanimation protocols. Reanimation makes crons more durable than marines - there is no question about it. Point is - if you have some bad dice against marines - the things you killed stay dead. Vs crons - you can lose a whole turn if that happens.

Then ofc - quantum shielding. Overall the most powerful defensive ability in the game.

Lets actually look into the Guardian shifting vs Marine shifting.

Out of cover unbuffed has been done to death. Guardians survive like Guardsmen. So out of cover they'd be a little tougher per point if they cost 4ppm. So they're a little tougher than half as durable as Marines per point this way.

In cover, you've got, vs small arms (S4 AP0), you get:
Guardians: (2/3)(1/2) = 1/3 hits kill 8pts
Marines: (1/2)(1/6) = 1/12 kills 13 pts
Marines win at above double the durabiltiy/pt

Now, give them Protect. Because you've got nothing more important to use it on / holding the point is super critical / whatever:
Guardians: (2/3)(1/3) = 16/9 pts/hit
Marines: 13/12 pts/hit
So with a "free" Protect, not paying for the psyker or CP to ensure it or whatever, Marines are still much more durable per point. Very biased.

Without substantial buffs (Alaitoc with Lightning Reflexes and Conceal outside 12", for example), Guardians are not more durable than Marines without buffs per point. Even when throwing in Protect for *free*.

Bharring wrote:
Lets actually look into the Guardian shifting vs Marine shifting.

Out of cover unbuffed has been done to death. Guardians survive like Guardsmen. So out of cover they'd be a little tougher per point if they cost 4ppm. So they're a little tougher than half as durable as Marines per point this way.

In cover, you've got, vs small arms (S4 AP0), you get:
Guardians: (2/3)(1/2) = 1/3 hits kill 8pts
Marines: (1/2)(1/6) = 1/12 kills 13 pts
Marines win at above double the durabiltiy/pt

Now, give them Protect. Because you've got nothing more important to use it on / holding the point is super critical / whatever:
Guardians: (2/3)(1/3) = 16/9 pts/hit
Marines: 13/12 pts/hit
So with a "free" Protect, not paying for the psyker or CP to ensure it or whatever, Marines are still much more durable per point. Very biased.

Without substantial buffs (Alaitoc with Lightning Reflexes and Conceal outside 12", for example), Guardians are not more durable than Marines without buffs per point. Even when throwing in Protect for *free*.

There is a stratagem that gives them a 4++ against shooting. Throw on Protect and they instantly have the same or better save as Marines
They can also be in the Webway, meaning they do not get shot at unless the Eldar player lets you. Math is great, but there is more that affects durability than Stats alone.

A Marine unit is almost always twice the cost per model due to weapon upgrades.
5 Marines with a special/heavy weapon and a combi-weapon is gonna run ~100pts
10 Guardains with 1 weapon platform is also ~100pts

That weapon platform is also a 3+ armour (2+ in cover) with 2W and is often allocated to first. Does your math account for that?

-

Gaurdians are a glass cannon unit. You are selling them short though. When used properly they are very hard to destroy even without stratagems

Platform tanking is insanely powerful.
2+ save in cover for the first 2 wounds. Or 2 + save in the open with protect.

Can go to 3++ save for 1 CP and a psychic spell with -2 to hit if they so please.

The Wave Serpent is more durable than the Rhino. It is not more durable per point, outside heavily contrived scenarios. It's got better firepower, and better rules, no doubt. But not as durable per point.

"harlequins always have at least 1 damage reduction mechanic going on.". Good. They pay Marine prices for t3 4++. Have you ever wondered why so many non-Marine armies actually do think the Boltgun isn't worthless?

"my marines are probably rolling 5+ or 6+ saves"
So you never face any army that uses:
-Pulse weapons
-Lasguns
-Boltguns
-Gauss
-Shuriken
-Spinter

Or anything else? Your opponents rarely use weapons that aren't AP-3 or better? Even against AP-2, you should still get a 4+ at times.

Looking at top lists, sure lots of heavy weapons, but small arms still outnumber the kind of AT weapons that make a mockery of the 3+.

I mean, try fielding T3 4+ at 12ppm in volume, then try telling me Marines are the most fragile army per point again.

CWE infantry are more fragile probably than naked tacs. Once you start giving tacs equipment, it goes down hill fast. If course, if you don't equip them, they have the worst firepower/pt i think. It's a bad situation.

Bharring wrote:
The Wave Serpent is more durable than the Rhino. It is not more durable per point, outside heavily contrived scenarios. It's got better firepower, and better rules, no doubt. But not as durable per point.

You need to compare Serpents to Razorbacks, not Rhinos. Or, can you get a Razorback AND a Rhino for the same cost as a Serpent? Cuz that's about the equivalent durability/damage output.

-

"Gaurdians are a glass cannon unit. You are selling them short though. When used properly they are very hard to destroy even without stratagems"

You know what else has a 2+ save for it's first two wounds in cover and costs less than the Guardian squad with the platform? A Tac squad with a heavy weapon. Cheaper for the same firepower. More durable to most weapons in the game. Has that 2+ for the entire time. And doesn't lose it's heavy after two wounds the way Platform-tanking Guardians do.

If only Marines could field a Tac squad to have the same durability as a Platform-tanking Guardian squad! But, alas, they have to pay a full 65 points for the same thing CWE gets for only 95 points!

Bharring wrote:
"Gaurdians are a glass cannon unit. You are selling them short though. When used properly they are very hard to destroy even without stratagems"

You know what else has a 2+ save for it's first two wounds in cover and costs less than the Guardian squad with the platform? A Tac squad with a heavy weapon. Cheaper for the same firepower. More durable to most weapons in the game. Has that 2+ for the entire time. And doesn't lose it's heavy after two wounds the way Platform-tanking Guardians do.

If only Marines could field a Tac squad to have the same durability as a Platform-tanking Guardian squad! But, alas, they have to pay a full 65 points for the same thing CWE gets for only 95 points!

And hardly anyone is taking 5 Marines with a HB, but loads of players are filling their lists with Guardians.
You are not looking at the big picture and seem intent on focusing on a very specific and wholly irrelevant unit to unit comparison.

Guardians have more OPTIONS for durability than Tac Marines do within their respective armies. THAT'S THE POINT.
The ARMY is more durable overall due to these options.

-

Galef,
A Razorback *and* a Rhino are in the ~150 pt range.
A Serpent is marginally cheaper.

Razor/Rhino have 20 wounds total. Serpent has 13. Even with Shield, the Razor/Rhino is surviving a ton more outside contrived examples. Further, Razor/Rhino are two seperate vehicles, which helps against overkill and degradation.

Don't get me wrong, the Serpent is the better vehicle. Much better firepower. But both the Razorback and Rhino are more durable per point than the Serpent. Not as much more durable than most other SM vs CWE comparisons, though.

Also, hiding in cover is rarely viable in a game wjth any kind of maelstrom objective. Between that and that de obsession, please don't ever assume marines get 2+.

There does seem to be a lot of goal post moving here

Are we comparing a Tac "marine" to other troops or something else?

Are we comparing a "rhino" to other transports. or dito

Are we including CP stratgems, auras, psychic stuff and the like - plus abilities like -1 to hit for Ravenguard and certain sub factions