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Martel732 wrote:
Just quite engaging him. I have. It's pointless.

haha. That directed at me or Xeno?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just quite engaging him. I have. It's pointless.

haha. That directed at me or Xeno?

Probably directed at you to quite engaging Xenos, and maybe to a lesser extend me.
Both Xenos and I seem to be very adamant that 2W Marines are the only "correct" answer.

Martel would probably be ok with 2W Marines, but is also pro-Horde Marines, which I am not.
You shouldn't be able to take Marines on a 1:1 ratio with other Troops. It just isn't supposed to be their style. They should be worth (in both points AND actual value) at least 3-4 Guardsmen, or about 2 of the GEQ Xenos troops like Guardians, Kabalites, Fire Warriors, etc.

Whether those units need their point adjusted or not, Marine should always be *worth* more.

-

So Bharring, you think marines aren't as good as they should be.

What would be your suggestion for making them better? What do they need in order to be competitive in your eyes? And by competitive I mean a reasonable option in an event at the ETC.

IMHO marine troops need to be better than other troops. I'd love for 70ish marines marching down the field drowning enemies in massed bolter fire to work. Looking at any competitive event it just doesn't.

I'd like marines to be a slow but mobile force that is hard to deal with due to volume of bolter fire, a relentless advance and specialist troops that can act as scalpels.

I want 2+ for MEQs and 1+ for TEQs (not more wounds, the math works out similar as the +w suggestion)
Firing ports on rhinos
disembark after moving landraiders
+1 attack across the board
6s +1 hit for all bolters used by marines.
bolters assault 3, 24" range,
heavy bolters heavy 4.
primaris bolters rf 2, 30-36" range, -1ap/assault 4, 24" range/heavy 2, 48" range, -2 ap, sniper
chainswords -1 ap
storm bolters rf 3, 24" range

I think a lot of units probably need individual attention (centurions, dreads, reivers, Gulliman, termies, land raiders, assault marines)

New chapter tactics that apply to vehicles (can't just port them over unless templars are getting some sort of melee tank...)
New strats/psychic powers on par with some of the newer ones (+1 to wound, double shooting, deepstrike, +1 ap, -1 to hit)

Now all of this needs to be complimented by fixes (nerfs) to eldar, dark eldar, some chaos builds (fearless cultists, arhman, bash bros), negative hit stacking, roll back of the deepstrike nerf (can't deepstrike turn 1 w/in 9" of enemy deployment zone is fine).

They need to be autowin vs other troops to have a chance vs the other slots in Xeno armies. Quit focusing on troops. Marines aren't just the troops for marines. They're basically every slot. Quit ignoring this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just quite engaging him. I have. It's pointless.

haha. That directed at me or Xeno?

Probably directed at you to quite engaging Xenos, and maybe to a lesser extend me.
Both Xenos and I seem to be very adamant that 2W Marines are the only "correct" answer.

Martel would probably be ok with 2W Marines, but is also pro-Horde Marines, which I am not.
You shouldn't be able to take Marines on a 1:1 ratio with other Troops. It just isn't supposed to be their style. They should be worth (in both points AND actual value) at least 3-4 Guardsmen, or about 2 of the GEQ Xenos troops like Guardians, Kabalites, Fire Warriors, etc.

Whether those units need their point adjusted or not, Marine should always be *worth* more.

-

Marine "style" doesn't exist anymore. It hasn't since 3rd. They put the disintegrator and the -1 AP necron dynasty in the game. Trying to make marines live is largely folly imo. They're going to die in huge numbers. 20, 25 per turn.

 Galef wrote:
The point is, 2W Marines that are roughly double the cost of other basic Troop choices are even and fair because those other options have more actual models, thus more guns. And guns that are typically better than bolters too.

5 Marines with 2W at ~15ppm, 3 Bolters, 1 Plasma & 1 Combi-Plas = 103pts?
That's about the same as 10 Eldar Guardians w/ Shuricannon platform (95pts)
Well more than 10 Fire Warriors (70pts), which we've already done the math that proves they can kill 5 2W Marines

I am not saying Marines at 2W shouldn't cost more than now, but 15-16ppm is about the sweet spot, Any more expensive and they end up sucking like they do now.
And for only 1W, they need to be equal to other comparable choices. i.e. >10ppm, which while balanced, seems wrong.

-

So, what are "comparable choices"? Are Guard a "comparable choice?". Dire Avengers at 12ppm? Genestealers at 10? Oddly, one of the units I liken most to a Tactical Squad because of their loadout options is Tyranid Warriors. Are they "comparable?" Do "comparable" units have to "break even" vs. those choices in isolation or can they operate in a different way to be effective?

I get that we have this sort of innate need for Marines to trounce Guardsmen. I would just ask "under what framework and context?". 10 Marines can trounce 10 Guardsmen. 10 Marines don't trounce 30 of them at once. Is that necessarily bad? I don't think so. I keep going back to the example that it takes 20 Guardsmen shots to kill a single marine at 1W. Doubling Marine wounds to 2 makes that 40 shots. I think that's really, really bad for the "table feel" of anyone not marines. 80 Lasgun shots to kill a single marine in cover.

Martel732 wrote:
They need to be autowin vs other troops to have a chance vs the other slots in Xeno armies. Quit focusing on troops. Marines aren't just the troops for marines. They're basically every slot. Quit ignoring this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just quite engaging him. I have. It's pointless.

haha. That directed at me or Xeno?

Probably directed at you to quite engaging Xenos, and maybe to a lesser extend me.
Both Xenos and I seem to be very adamant that 2W Marines are the only "correct" answer.

Martel would probably be ok with 2W Marines, but is also pro-Horde Marines, which I am not.
You shouldn't be able to take Marines on a 1:1 ratio with other Troops. It just isn't supposed to be their style. They should be worth (in both points AND actual value) at least 3-4 Guardsmen, or about 2 of the GEQ Xenos troops like Guardians, Kabalites, Fire Warriors, etc.

Whether those units need their point adjusted or not, Marine should always be *worth* more.

-

Marine "style" doesn't exist anymore. It hasn't since 3rd. They put the disintegrator and the -1 AP necron dynasty in the game. Trying to make marines live is largely folly imo. They're going to die in huge numbers. 20, 25 per turn.

Yeah because everyone's not forced to take multiple troop units regardless of how good or bad they are for CP's especially when you can't soup.

Also your seriously still trying to sell that marines should outshoot Tau who's who thing is being the shooting army and always has been?
Marines can't be the best at everything, they need to be balanced not just autowin. If you want a game thats exclusively marine vrs marines 30k exsist.

Marines being outshot by guardsmen is wrong but guardsmen at 4ppm are undercosted 5ppm is what guardsmen are worth, their orders might still need some work or officers need to pay points for the power of the orders.

It's not just DE that can do this to marines. My very tame Ulthwe eldar list is not top teir competitive.

I take D cannons/ war walkers with star cannons / 2 wave serpants with 15 DA / 20 man gardian/ and 2 fire prisms. Autarch on jetbike and eldrad. I think that list has a crimson hunter too.

Like - everything in that army removes space marines at a high rate. It's game over at turn 1. THIS IS A TAC LIST.

Getting into my ideal fixes seems to be even more toxic than just counter-arguing some of the more crazy claims.

In a broad sense, I'm not sure that Marines are what needs fixing. The problem seems to be scads of other things. Bringing Marines to 2W doesn't fix Dissies or Plasma Scions or 4pt model Guardians. That last one doesn't bother Tac Marines anymore, but is still crazy.

Conceptually, the following needs to happen:
-Many of the 'medium' arms (Dissies, Plas, etc) need to be nerfed.
-Many of the cheaper GEQ need to go up in points (Guardsmen, Kabs, and FW could all use +1ppm, for example).
-Specials/heavies need to matter when you have only 1 of them - look at the Flamer and Melta as is, for example
-Stratagems need rebalancing (Auspex, for example, needs to be 1CP or not include a -1-to-hit).
-Traits need rework. Maybe even make UM traits part of ATSKNF, and give UM something else.
-Droppods need to go down in points. A lot.
-Droppods carrying Tacs should be able to bypass the 'deepstrike in your deployment zone T1' rule for 1CP for one, or 3CP for 2.

And that's just for a start. A lot more needs to be done. Probably more than would be done short of a new edition. Which is too bad. Much more than is in the average CA, and most of the codexes are already out.

For Tac Marines, a stopgap could be 11ppm +1A with no other rules change. Doesn't make them "right", but makes them viable.

For Termies, they need a lot more. Unfortunately, competitive play doesn't need a middleweight "rook" unit. Termies wouldn't hold up as-is even if that were in demand, but the thing they need most is a Plas fix (why did IoM Plas get buffed so much in 8th?). Coupled with a number of other multiwound Plas-equivelents (Starswarm shouldn't be D:2. Dissies need a change.).

I tried arguing the specific level the buff/change should be at earlier in this thread, and it did not go well. So I'm just sniping crazy claims instead of suggesting and supporting the exact changes I'd like to see.

"Also your seriously still trying to sell that marines should outshoot Tau who's who thing is being the shooting army and always has been? "

Yes, I am. Because marines have to deal with the giant suits and the stealth gak, too. They should totally have their way with firewarriors.

"Marines can't be the best at everything, they need to be balanced not just autowin."

That's not what I'm describing at all. Read closer.

Martel732 wrote:
Marine "style" doesn't exist anymore. It hasn't since 3rd. They put the disintegrator and the -1 AP necron dynasty in the game. Trying to make marines live is largely folly imo. They're going to die in huge numbers. 20, 25 per turn.

And that is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Making them "expendable" is technically a solution, but if we do this, why bother with Marines at all? Why not just make every army a horde so that no army is a horde?
Marines are special because they are super human, even better than most Xenos who are by their nature or tech also better than a regular human.

I want Marines to have their own style that sets them apart and makes them play as a (relatively) small number of elite warriors. 50 or so Marines with half a dozen tanks **should** be equal to 100 GEQs with about a dozen tanks.
Just because a few armies currently delete Marines by the handfuls, doesn't change this. Making them cheaper also will not change this, it just means you will have some spare Marines to die next turn.

The same goes for Termies, who I would argue benefit even more from +1W than regular Marines since there are currently D2 weapons that would no fail to outright kill the Termies.
What needs to be cheaper isn't the Marine itself, it's the weapons they carry that need to drop in points.

-

There is no design space for the marine "style". They tried that with primaris and made them WORSE.

We'd have to move to D10, or at minimum, stretch all the current stats.

"even better than most Xenos"

They are straight up gak compared to Xenos, and I don't see a good way to fix that atm, other than just admitting they are gak and charging accordingly. You see how people are losing their goddamn minds over the +1 W thing, even though many of them probably roll marines every time they play them.

"why did IoM Plas get buffed so much in 8th?"

It's one of the few effective things marines can deploy, unfortunately. IG does it better, of course.

As for these specific claims, I'd like to share my thoughts with you.

-I want 2+ for MEQs and 1+ for TEQs (not more wounds, the math works out similar as the +w suggestion)
Not a huge fan of 2+ Marines. Too much durability. Kabs and Guardsmen are OP, but now you've hosed a number of other troops out there

-Firing ports on rhinos
Totally agree. Would love to see this added. Would be fine on it's own.

-disembark after moving landraiders
Wouldn't that make more sense for Venoms and Raiders and maybe even Falcons? It makes SM assault more gimmicky, which means anything that can take it can't be brought up to reasonable balance levels when they don't take it. I'd rather a points reduction.

-+1 attack across the board
On board. Maybe a second look at HQs, but should be fine. Rank 'n file being A:2 is a good idea.

-6s +1 hit for all bolters used by marines.
This works out to a 25% increase in firepower. I don't like the mechanic, but just a flat change wouldn't be OP.

-bolters assault 3, 24" range,
So Shuriken Catapaults with twice the range, half again the shots, and no Bladestorm? You basically eclipse a number of Troop weapons that are supposed to be as scary as a Boltgun.

-heavy bolters heavy 4.
I was thinking RF2 or 3 - but this works

-primaris bolters rf 2, 30-36" range, -1ap/assault 4, 24" range/heavy 2, 48" range, -2 ap, sniper
Gonna pass on Primaris

-chainswords -1 ap
Fun fact: Storm Guardians can take Chainswords. Already a huge upgrade from their stock weapons, for free. Back on topic, it'd work, but I like my ASM as AP0. If we can't actually balance the game, this would help as a stopgap. I don't like it, though. That being said, crunchwise, shouldn't be a problem (should cost a few points, but the ASM should be discounted the same to compensate).

-storm bolters rf 3, 24" range
Again, half again the firepower. Not crazy. Most armies don't fear the Storm Bolter currently, but a few builds actually do.

It's hard to properly consider these chagnes because the game is so schizophrenic right now. On one hand you have 4ppm Guardsmen which means SM need a huge buff. On the other hand, you have 8ppm Guardians who really just have a shotgun that's a sidegrade from a Boltgun. Then you have Dire Avengers who pay 12ppm for half the durability to small arms.

It's hard to balance Tacs because what do you balance them against? Balance against IG, and they're now OP and the rest of the factions are trash. Balance them vs Tau, and they still can't stand up to IG.

 Galef wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just quite engaging him. I have. It's pointless.

haha. That directed at me or Xeno?

Probably directed at you to quite engaging Xenos, and maybe to a lesser extend me.
Both Xenos and I seem to be very adamant that 2W Marines are the only "correct" answer.

Martel would probably be ok with 2W Marines, but is also pro-Horde Marines, which I am not.
You shouldn't be able to take Marines on a 1:1 ratio with other Troops. It just isn't supposed to be their style. They should be worth (in both points AND actual value) at least 3-4 Guardsmen, or about 2 of the GEQ Xenos troops like Guardians, Kabalites, Fire Warriors, etc.

Whether those units need their point adjusted or not, Marine should always be *worth* more.

-

But how do we calculate worth? Via a straight up standoff? I think I've shown (elsewhere, though I could copy it again) that the "Standoff vs." model is a really bad method to go by.

So here's something to consider when thinking about "troops" style engagements. The marine "troop to transport" point ratio is really interesting. Marines have some of the cheapest transports around, but they carry some of the more expensive "basic troops" around. This is the inverse of most armies off the top of my head. Guard in a Chimera, Guardians (or even Avengers) in Wave Serpents. It's cheaper for marines to truck around a greater value of models. Imo that's inseparable from the MO of marines, and it's worth something. It's just one order higher on the "vs. simulation model", but it has a significant impact when thinking about Guard vs. Marine type of scenarios, because it means it's much easier for marines to concentrate force.

"It's hard to balance Tacs because what do you balance them against?"

NOT TROOPS. Balance them vs Xeno elites and heavies, for starters.

@ Bharring

I think bringing down the rest of the game to the marine level is actually the best solution and I pretty much agree with everything you posted. I also agree that so much work needs to be done it won't happen until a new edition comes out.

Problem with nerfing plasma is that seems to be the best weapon marines have going for us so it helps survive but really hurts where I think marines suck at (killing stuff).

I'm just anti the horde marine (10-11 points) as that niche is filled so much better by other armies but it does make sense as much as I wouldn't want to see it.

Also, nerfing units doesn't sell new units. Looking at the codex creep that has happened already I can't see them walking it back enough.

As cynical as that sounds I don't see it happening and as some other poster somewhere posted marines probably aren't on the "buff to sell more models list" because they sell well enough already.

I think you're closer to the same page as a lot of posters are. Now to just find a way to reel in Insect...

Banshees:
14ppm 2W Marines beat Banshees in Assault. And in shooting, by a lot.

Scorpions:
Same

Hawks:
Same

Spiders:
Same

Vypers:
Same

War Walkers:
Same

Are those troops?

Nerfing down the whole game seems incredibly marine-centric to me. Price them like power armor horde, as they are, or make massive changes to marines.

Martel732 wrote:
"even better than most Xenos"

They are straight up gak compared to Xenos.

Agreed. But they aren't SUPPOSED to be. I am trying to do 2 things at once here: Give Marines something that makes them better AND makes them play more like they are portrayed. Few in number but more powerful 1v1 than other factions' rank-n-file infantry.

-

Bharring wrote:
Banshees:
14ppm 2W Marines beat Banshees in Assault. And in shooting, by a lot.

Scorpions:
Same

Hawks:
Same

Spiders:
Same

Vypers:
Same

War Walkers:
Same

Are those troops?

I don't believe you on some of those units for starters. Also, try looking at some meta threats, not Eldar 3rd tier units. 2W marines are still auto-scoops vs Drukhari.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"even better than most Xenos"

They are straight up gak compared to Xenos.

Agreed. But they aren't SUPPOSED to be. I am trying to do 2 things at once here: Give Marines something that makes them better AND makes them play more like they are portrayed. Few in number but more powerful 1v1 that other factions rank-n-file.

-

You get to Custodes real fast. Because we are dealing with tiny numbers.

Plas tacs (PG/Combi) seems to be one of the few actually threatening Tac builds. So if you bring Plas down, you need to bring Tacs up in other ways.

However, Plas is one of the best ways to kill Tacs, Primaris, and Termies. So bringing Plas down brings each of those up.

Also, I think Insect is more on the same page as it appears. He's doing the same thing of trying to refute the crazier extreme claims. He doesn't actually believe Tacs > Reapers. It was a reduction to the absurd to show that certain claims were rediculous.

In that vein, I think Tacs would benefit immensely from a 55pt Rhino.

Not really. The rhino is fine-ish. It's just carrying pure gak. Making it 55 pts lets me buy one more gakky marine. Yippee.

Let's just take the gloves off here. Marines need balanced against:

Dissy spam
Riptide/shield drone
Mortal wound spam (Tsons)
-1 AP dynasty
Alaitoc Eldar dark reaper/farseer spam
The entire IG codex, almost

These are the things doing the lifting in a competitive meta. Not your banshees. Not your war walkers. Basal marines are the troops, fast attack, heavy support and elites for marines. Stop dancing around this.

One more marine *per squad*.

Bharring wrote:
One more marine *per squad*.

Who cares? You're just not getting it.

It's just one more chumpo to die before doing anything useful.

Martel732 wrote:
Not really. The rhino is fine-ish. It's just carrying pure gak. Making it 55 pts lets me buy one more gakky marine. Yippee.

Let's just take the gloves off here. Marines need balanced against:

Dissy spam
Riptide/shield drone
Mortal wound spam (Tsons)
-1 AP dynasty
Alaitoc Eldar dark reaper/farseer spam
The entire IG codex, almost

These are the things doing the lifting in a competitive meta. Not your banshees. Not your war walkers. Basal marines are the troops, fast attack, heavy support and elites for marines. Stop dancing around this.

Marines have access to 90+ units in their book, and then a bunch more from FW. As long as some combination of units across that entire spectrum can do ok, we're good. This doesn't necessarily affect the relationship between tac marines and other "basic units".

Plus, and perhaps more importantly, tournament lists are not the 90% use case of the product of 40K. Tournaments are essentially a sideshow.

Curiosity question for Martel:
If you absolutely had to pick between:
+1W for MEQs, TEQ and Bikes
OR
+1 armour saves across the board for Marines and CSMs

Assuming no points changes at all, which would you pick?

-

+1 W, probably. The armor save thing is easily negated by dissy cannons and MW factories. The dissy cannon really redefines marines in a very negative way. It's quite literally a win button vs marines. It's really good vs all armies, but for marines, it's just game over.

With +1 W, terminators and primaris don't instantly lose to dissy cannons.

Martel732 wrote:
+1 W, probably. The armor save thing is easily negated by dissy cannons and MW factories. The dissy cannon really redefines marines in a very negative way.

Indeed. Which is why I am so adamant about it. Having an extra would is a "guarantee" in more situations than a better armour save.

I also think Marine weapon options are too few in availability, which is where I would focus on making them more offensive.
Make their guns cheaper and more plentiful and suddenly they are killing those units that delete them much faster, thus not being able to delete them.

-

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"even better than most Xenos"

They are straight up gak compared to Xenos.

Agreed. But they aren't SUPPOSED to be. I am trying to do 2 things at once here: Give Marines something that makes them better AND makes them play more like they are portrayed. Few in number but more powerful 1v1 than other factions' rank-n-file infantry.
-

Buuut. . . "how they are portrayed" varies quite a bit. . . and how xenos are portrayed is often as powerful as how marines are portrayed. This is the "Aspect Warrior vs. Marine Problem." They're both bad---es. But the addition of 1w on marines jumps them way up in comparison.

Plus, Marines are currently significanty more powerful 1v1 than Guardsmen and Fire Warriors. Other infantry gets interesting. Should Marines be more powerful 1v1 than Immortals? I hope not.

Even with +1 W they still seem underpowered compared to grotesques lol.

Martel732 wrote:
Even with +1 W they still seem underpowered compared to grotesques lol.

Well, there's always going to be some oddball units out there.