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Seems irrelevant to this discussion TBH.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Actions speak louder than words. There has been cheating or at least "shady play" at the top tables of LVO, Adepticon, ATC, the London GT, and yes, even NOVA. And in the most recent example, it's been by individuals who have a recent history of it...an incident to which the primary response from Reece was "Tony's actually a great guy" and from you was "move along, nothing to see here". Celebrity 40K players often apear alongside TOs in podcasts and blogs, or even on teams with them in tournaments. So, I don't think you can fault people for at best being a little bit cynical.

Just imagine what would happen if after a unjust penality win, the winning team members would show up at the same podcasts as the refs running that match, and the refs would say that team X is full of good guys. FIFA is a mob, and gak still would happen.

Thats because no one wants to be ostracized and if people with a lot of influence want to flex their social-powers it can be quite damaging.

What I don't get is why this is still a discussion. I mean, this is preposterous. The 40k Community as a whole has had how long to figure this sort of gak out?

It's sad to say that plenty of gamers I know will not come back to GW games for this sort of behavior.

Why is it tolerated? Look, these dudes -are not going to change-. End of story. Let them play at home and stop calling them "top talent" gamers. They're cheating crooks, end of story.

A top tier gamer does not mis-write an army list. A top tier gamer doesn't use plastic toys glued to bases that are not even remotely close in appearance or theme.

A top tier gamer does not play like a fething donkey-cave that refuses to acknowledge intent, like Tony did at the ITC.

A top tier gamer plays the game to the best of their ability, and plays it in accordance with the rules and intent to challenge themselves.

The entire community needs to dismiss these guys, the repeat offenders, and outright ban them.

In addition, a simpler way of handling this is to have unit cards that have -all- relative info for each unit in the game - no closed info.

njtrader wrote:
What I don't get is why this is still a discussion. I mean, this is preposterous. The 40k Community as a whole has had how long to figure this sort of gak out?

It's sad to say that plenty of gamers I know will not come back to GW games for this sort of behavior.

Why is it tolerated? Look, these dudes -are not going to change-. End of story. Let them play at home and stop calling them "top talent" gamers. They're cheating crooks, end of story.

A top tier gamer does not mis-write an army list. A top tier gamer doesn't use plastic toys glued to bases that are not even remotely close in appearance or theme.

A top tier gamer does not play like a fething donkey-cave that refuses to acknowledge intent, like Tony did at the ITC.

A top tier gamer plays the game to the best of their ability, and plays it in accordance with the rules and intent to challenge themselves.

The entire community needs to dismiss these guys, the repeat offenders, and outright ban them.

This. It is appalling that this is still an issue. At least hopefully the new Standards of Conduct is a step in the right direction, though as I mentioned earlier, unless the TOs can set aside their friendships with these clowns long enough to do what is right for all their events then I am skeptical anything will change. They are consistent and repeat offenders who need to be permanently removed from the pool, end of story. No more excuses that they are somehow "good guys" or whatever. Their actions clearly prove otherwise at least in game. I don't give a rat's behind about what they are like personally. If they are going to cheat in these events then they don't deserve to attend.

This whole plasma pistol thing has been bothering me for a while. I definitely understand how somebody can make a simple mistake during list building, but this Plasma Pistol thing reeks of cheating. First, I listened to the Long War vid where it came up initially and a few things have really been nagging at me. It was not revealed that he had a Plasma Pistol UNTIL THE EXACT MOMENT he needed it to polish off a key enemy model. Adding the exact wargear you need, to the squad in the exact position needed to use it... that is really suspicious, and I would be extremely hesitant to denote something like that as an honest mistake. But everyone in Team Happy has been arguing until they were blue in the face that this was a simple mistake that could have happened to anyone. This would have been a non issue if he had paid for the plasma pistol with points and almost forgot he had it (a far more likely situation). The Long War podcast was spot on though, most people do not find the 7 points per squad to upgrade to plasma pistols except in niche cases, and usually on gunslingers with 2x Plasma Pistols). Even in the event that his list happened to be 7 points short and he had just forgot to write down the upgrade... it still runs the huge risk of him using a floating plasma pistol that magically appears on whoever needs to use it at a pivotal moment, which is still cheating.

This is why in a tournament your war gear needs to be clearly modeled. For the sake of both players. My Raptor Aspiring Champion has both of his plasma pistols drawn. You can tell from across the board that he is packing 2 plasma pistols and there are no questions as to what he has or doesn't have.

That said, the Rough Riders thing is a bit more niche. The conversions looked neat, and I am more willing to encourage people to bring neat conversions to their games. It adds spice and character to the events. That said, NOT getting them approved by the TO in an event that requires TO pre-approval for conversions, was a faux pas and should have resulted in sanctions (likely the removal of the unit). If you have cool conversions, and you go to an event that requires approval to use conversions, you absolutely need to make sure you get your ducks in a row before you show up! I also agree that for team happy on a last chance agreement. This breach of procedure was sufficient for the ban from the venue.

I'm sure we'll be hearing about these guys again in the very near future.

 akaean wrote:
This whole plasma pistol thing has been bothering me for a while. I definitely understand how somebody can make a simple mistake during list building, but this Plasma Pistol thing reeks of cheating. First, I listened to the Long War vid where it came up initially and a few things have really been nagging at me. It was not revealed that he had a Plasma Pistol UNTIL THE EXACT MOMENT he needed it to polish off a key enemy model. Adding the exact wargear you need, to the squad in the exact position needed to use it... that is really suspicious, and I would be extremely hesitant to denote something like that as an honest mistake. But everyone in Team Happy has been arguing until they were blue in the face that this was a simple mistake that could have happened to anyone. This would have been a non issue if he had paid for the plasma pistol with points and almost forgot he had it (a far more likely situation). The Long War podcast was spot on though, most people do not find the 7 points per squad to upgrade to plasma pistols except in niche cases, and usually on gunslingers with 2x Plasma Pistols). Even in the event that his list happened to be 7 points short and he had just forgot to write down the upgrade... it still runs the huge risk of him using a floating plasma pistol that magically appears on whoever needs to use it at a pivotal moment, which is still cheating.

Yeah, realistically, you're more likely to forget that you have a piece of wargear than you are to imagine that you have a piece of wargear that's not actually in your army. I once forgot a five-man Vanguard Veteran Squad had storm shields, and they got wiped out from shots that they could've survived if they'd been rolling a 3+ save, instead. And they all had storm shields modeled on them. But because I was looking at them from behind, I didn't see the storm shields, and so it completely slipped my mind they had them. Something like that I could see happening. But suddenly "remembering" that your squad has a plasma pistol when it doesn't actually have one? I don't buy it. That's not a mistake, but outright dishonesty and blatant cheating.

njtrader wrote:
What I don't get is why this is still a discussion. I mean, this is preposterous. The 40k Community as a whole has had how long to figure this sort of gak out?

Right. So what are you going to do about it, besides gripe and complain here? And that's a plural, "What are you all going to do about it?"

Sitting by the pickle barrel and complaining doesn't effect change. Go to the events and volunteer to judge. 2 weeks in advance, meet with the other TOs and players if possible, and come up with your local Conduct Guidelines. Or wait for the ITC's guidelines, but be sure to implement them.

I did something. I helped get an awful player out of my local game store. If my other info is correct, that first domino tumbled him out of Comic Quest in Irvine, too. Maybe I'm claiming too much credit there. I'd like to hear from any players that play there for more info.

njtrader wrote:
It's sad to say that plenty of gamers I know will not come back to GW games for this sort of behavior.

Where's your scene? Do the Happy Team guys play in your area?

That these incidences of cheating/shady behavior are driving players away is denied by faster ticket sell-out times for LVO, BAO and SoCal Open each year. LVO 2019 (40k Championship) totaled in 2 days. The additional set of 120 tickets went in 4.5 hours (I was hovering over the keyboard at 1 minute before they went on sale. Got my ticket! ).

njtrader wrote:
Why is it tolerated? Look, these dudes -are not going to change-. End of story. Let them play at home and stop calling them "top talent" gamers. They're cheating crooks, end of story.
A top tier gamer does not mis-write an army list. A top tier gamer doesn't use plastic toys glued to bases that are not even remotely close in appearance or theme.
A top tier gamer does not play like a fething donkey-cave that refuses to acknowledge intent, like Tony did at the ITC.
A top tier gamer plays the game to the best of their ability, and plays it in accordance with the rules and intent to challenge themselves.
The entire community needs to dismiss these guys, the repeat offenders, and outright ban them.

I agree. You're preaching to the choir. Only, I've left the choir loft and actually got it done. Months ago.

But it wasn't just me. Several players were behind banning the guy too.

My point here:
Do the same at your venues! If there's a tool, tell him that he shapes up or ships out. Get the other players to support you.

The ITC big event scene is something I will have considerably less influence on, but I will be speaking to the event organizers to see how I can help. Like next weekend, at BAO.

 silashand wrote:

This. It is appalling that this is still an issue. At least hopefully the new Standards of Conduct is a step in the right direction, though as I mentioned earlier, unless the TOs can set aside their friendships with these clowns long enough to do what is right for all their events then I am skeptical anything will change. They are consistent and repeat offenders who need to be permanently removed from the pool, end of story. No more excuses that they are somehow "good guys" or whatever. Their actions clearly prove otherwise at least in game. I don't give a rat's behind about what they are like personally. If they are going to cheat in these events then they don't deserve to attend.

That's what kills me. GW has streamlined the rules and oddities still come up but the game is relatively polished. These sorts of cheating issues "I refuse to adhere with the judge's assertion" - out. Out. You're out. It's just absurd. These guys are the same guys every time every place.

Kick them the hell out - no more leniency. It speaks poorly of the community in general.

As for the commentary about "what have you done about it" - I am not your typical TO. (not directed at you, silas.)

When someone is caught cheating - I announce it to the entire room. Not for drama. But so -everyone- knows going forward what to look for.

Don't like it? Simple. Don't cheat. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

auticus wrote:
I'm sure we'll be hearing about these guys again in the very near future.

QFT. With some other big cons coming up soon, I think the eyes will really be on not only those players (who will likely still be gak-heads) but also on the TOs to see how they handle it. This, I think, will be more telling than whether the same old TFG players are still TFG.

njtrader wrote:
That's what kills me. GW has streamlined the rules and oddities still come up but the game is relatively polished. These sorts of cheating issues "I refuse to adhere with the judge's assertion" - out. Out. You're out. It's just absurd. These guys are the same guys every time every place.
Kick them the hell out - no more leniency. It speaks poorly of the community in general.
As for the commentary about "what have you done about it" - I am not your typical TO. (not directed at you, silas.)
When someone is caught cheating - I announce it to the entire room. Not for drama. But so -everyone- knows going forward what to look for.
Don't like it? Simple. Don't cheat. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

You do?
srsly, I love this. Please tell me where you run your events. Cite some examples? It's Real Life examples that will give gravity of consequences so Chester-the-Cheater has more motivation to clean up his act.

By putting yourself forward, e.g. "We here at the Barking Bolter RTTs have banned 2 people for Life, and have issued 3 two month bans. We're serious about having Clean Games and events."
No joke.

Honestly, if you don't like the cheating, SPEAK UP!

Publicly tell the TO that you expect cheaters to be permanently banned, or you'll find another place to play. Simple as that. Put the spotlight on the TO and force them to choose between their cheating "friends" and the honest players at large. If the choose to support cheaters, name and shame the TO.

If it's at a store, publicly tell the owner what their store is doing, and how it affects the store's perception in the community.

It's really not that hard.

If a store gets a rep for supporting cheaters, it's a good reason to push for a boycott, which is probably easily enough to drive it out of business in a few months.

Make cheating an existential threat to TOs and stores, and it'll stop.

Some humor for you all...pretty funny..i like my plasma....hidden

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=510740486025678&set=gm.1847222198679484&type=3&theater

 Peregrine wrote:
DQ for cheating with the plasma pistol.

DQ everyone else who had an illegal list.

"Sorry, you can't use those here" at sign in for bringing models which clearly violate event rules. It's unfortunate that the army wasn't banned up front, but it never should have been allowed.

I am disappointed that people admit to breaking clear and explicit rules and complain that it is unfair that they don't get to keep playing. Follow the rules and you won't get DQed.

Dude... where do I start?
As a TO for local events (8-24 people) I believe that as humans, we make mistakes sometimes. Because of that, I believe if a player is agreeable and will accept minor penalties for mistakes, that they are fine as long as the issue does not continue. The SCORCHEDEARTHBANANYONEWHOMAKESAMISTAKERAAAARGH!!! attitude does absolutely nothing to foster healthy relationships between players at events, between players and TOs, between players and judges, or really anyone involved.
Furthermore, as long as conversions are cool, make sense from a visual standpoint (ex. motorcycle rough riders), and are similar in size, they are totally cool in my book, and would have no problem with them at any event I ran, attended, or any game I played.
Yes, cheating at 40k events is a problem, but most people are simply... human, not maliciously cheating. People who continually cheat/bend rules/are toxic in attitude do deserve bans. If you actively defy a judge, that's a DQ. If you attack the opponent, judge, or TO verbally or physically, that's a DQ. Having 5 pts over on a list and accepting the penalty given? A warning and a loss are totally fine.
2 cents from a TO

 AUGmaniac wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
DQ for cheating with the plasma pistol.

DQ everyone else who had an illegal list.

"Sorry, you can't use those here" at sign in for bringing models which clearly violate event rules. It's unfortunate that the army wasn't banned up front, but it never should have been allowed.

I am disappointed that people admit to breaking clear and explicit rules and complain that it is unfair that they don't get to keep playing. Follow the rules and you won't get DQed.

Dude... where do I start?
As a TO for local events (8-24 people) I believe that as humans, we make mistakes sometimes. Because of that, I believe if a player is agreeable and will accept minor penalties for mistakes, that they are fine as long as the issue does not continue. The SCORCHEDEARTHBANANYONEWHOMAKESAMISTAKERAAAARGH!!! attitude does absolutely nothing to foster healthy relationships between players at events, between players and TOs, between players and judges, or really anyone involved.
Furthermore, as long as conversions are cool, make sense from a visual standpoint (ex. motorcycle rough riders), and are similar in size, they are totally cool in my book, and would have no problem with them at any event I ran, attended, or any game I played.
Yes, cheating at 40k events is a problem, but most people are simply... human, not maliciously cheating. People who continually cheat/bend rules/are toxic in attitude do deserve bans. If you actively defy a judge, that's a DQ. If you attack the opponent, judge, or TO verbally or physically, that's a DQ. Having 5 pts over on a list and accepting the penalty given? A warning and a loss are totally fine.
2 cents from a TO

If you can’t write a legal 40k list, do you deserve prizes from a tournament?

First offense: scores zeroed out, ineligible for prize support, allowed to play at bottom tables “for fun” for rest of event, scoring zero regardless of game result. A lot of people come to events just to play a bunch and have no real designs on placing anyway. If you did have that intent, you should’ve wrote a legal list.

Second offense in a row or third lifetime offense: asked to leave event and not attend the next one.

I don’t understand why people want to defend illegal lists. If you’re going to an event, pull out your calculator and check each list entry for accuracy. It’s like a 5 to 10 minute task. In two decades of magic/40k, I’ve never brought an illegal deck/list to an event or even to a casual game. Just a quick doublecheck is all it takes.

njtrader wrote:

A top tier gamer does not mis-write an army list.

Except we have people like geoff robinson, use illegal lists like at the 2015 BAO, win prizes/ect and get the "oh its just a mistake so its ok" and get off scott free to keep said prizes.

Not everyone is in the cool kids click, the rules are not enforced based on "you break rule X you get the standard punishment" its

"well, if we like you, its ok, but if not, well then we punish you not only in the tournament, but to the fullest extent possible even if that extends to real life social punishments."

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Yes, cheating at 40k events is a problem, but most people are simply... human, not maliciously cheating.

Which is why I don't understand why tournaments aren't implementing sportsmanship scores? If the majority of "cheating" wasn't malicious intent, sportsmanship scores with a significant impact on the final result (as well as possibly painting/army presentation scores) provide a natural incentive for people to play to their best, not freak under stress, be courteous with dice rolls (and have armies that provide a visually positive experience for their opponent and the tournament at large). Or if they do, the "penalty" is organically built into the system.

Yet, the argument ITC & co always make against this, is that they can be "gamed" or abused by the "problem players", which would imply that the majority of problematic players are indeed malicious cheats, not "simply humans".

 AUGmaniac wrote:

Dude... where do I start?

Do what I do. Press the button to ignore his posts. He doesn't attended tourneys, so his opinions shoudn't matter.

 AUGmaniac wrote:
As a TO for local events (8-24 people) I believe that as humans, we make mistakes sometimes.

"I don't give a about following the rules therefore I'm not going to check my list before the event" is not a mistake, it's deliberate disregard for the rules. DQ bye.

Because of that, I believe if a player is agreeable and will accept minor penalties for mistakes, that they are fine as long as the issue does not continue.

And you know what encourages mistakes to continue? Knowing that the penalty is minor and that people like you will rush to defend the cheater and insist that punishments be light.

The SCORCHEDEARTHBANANYONEWHOMAKESAMISTAKERAAAARGH!!! attitude does absolutely nothing to foster healthy relationships between players at events, between players and TOs, between players and judges, or really anyone involved.

Of course it does. It fosters healthy relationships by ensuring that the remaining players are following the rules, and allowing everyone to be confident that if they are the victim of cheating the TO will take the cheating seriously and DQ the offender instead of dismissing it as "just a mistake".

Furthermore, as long as conversions are cool, make sense from a visual standpoint (ex. motorcycle rough riders), and are similar in size, they are totally cool in my book, and would have no problem with them at any event I ran, attended, or any game I played.

That is fine for you to have that policy. It's a fine policy, and I'm not going to dispute it. But the ATC had a different policy explicitly stated in their event rules, and by participating in an event you agree to follow their conversion rules even if a particular illegal conversion would have been permitted in a different event. The models in question indisputably violated the ATC rules on conversions and were not legal. Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brothererekose wrote:
He doesn't attended tourneys, so his opinions shoudn't matter.

This is a lie. Please do not lie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
First offense: scores zeroed out, ineligible for prize support, allowed to play at bottom tables “for fun” for rest of event, scoring zero regardless of game result.

This is actually a really bad idea. Putting a player at the bottom tables for cheating very often means a player with the skills and list strength to be at the top tables is now facing much weaker opponents who are at the bottom tables because they can't win enough to be higher. The inevitable result of that is the legitimate bottom-table players getting massacred by someone they have little hope of competing against. IOW, the cheater gets to have fun at the expense of the honest bottom-table players, punishing the wrong person for the crime. DQ them and remove them from the event entirely, their fun is not relevant anymore.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Yes, cheating at 40k events is a problem, but most people are simply... human, not maliciously cheating.

Which is why I don't understand why tournaments aren't implementing sportsmanship scores? If the majority of "cheating" wasn't malicious intent, sportsmanship scores with a significant impact on the final result (as well as possibly painting/army presentation scores) provide a natural incentive for people to play to their best, not freak under stress, be courteous with dice rolls (and have armies that provide a visually positive experience for their opponent and the tournament at large). Or if they do, the "penalty" is organically built into the system.

Yet, the argument ITC & co always make against this, is that they can be "gamed" or abused by the "problem players", which would imply that the majority of problematic players are indeed malicious cheats, not "simply humans".

That’s not my quote sir. Please edit to correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@peregrine
They don’t have to accept playing him. They can just take the free win if they want or request to play the ringer army instead. They can even take a handicap since the game means nothing score wise.
If it was a sportsman’s legitimate mistake they should have no problem with that. Or they can decide to drop themselves if they don’t want to play for “nothing.”

You're missing Peregrine's point. The folk at the bottom of the rankings will probably be enjoying themselves by getting in a few games against people of roughly similar skill levels. Dump this "top-table cheat" in there with them and now four or five people get to spend a gakky couple of hours rolling saves and removing models. "take the free win"? Now you'd better hope they brought a good book, because they're spending a large proportion of the time not playing games. Given that they paid good money to play those games, now they're being hard done by.

Writing a 40k army list is not difficult; it should be the minimum expected requirement for entering. Likewise, if I entered an event and noticed that the rules were not being enforced, I'd not come back (or leave there and then, depending on how bad it was).

 Brothererekose wrote:

njtrader wrote:
It's sad to say that plenty of gamers I know will not come back to GW games for this sort of behavior.

Where's your scene? Do the Happy Team guys play in your area?

That these incidences of cheating/shady behavior are driving players away is denied by faster ticket sell-out times for LVO, BAO and SoCal Open each year. LVO 2019 (40k Championship) totaled in 2 days. The additional set of 120 tickets went in 4.5 hours (I was hovering over the keyboard at 1 minute before they went on sale. Got my ticket! ).

These things are not mutually exclusive. Against GW profits doubling in y/e 2017 and doubling again in y/e 2018 it would be a catastrophic performance for tournament organisers for their GW games to not be selling out.

What is clearly true is that with the rising tide lifting all ships so fast many TO do not really need to care about the standards of their events, they will sell out regardless in the current environment due to the popularity of the games. Some TO turn a blind eye to shenanigans, others to how bad their terrain looks, they all still sell loads of tickets.

Meanwhile it can still be entirely true that a lot of people have one bad experience and never come back to tournament play. Some of the more forward looking people in the TO community will need to do something to take this in hand because for sure GW can't keep growing sales - and to an extent refreshing the player community - this fast indefinitely.

I have a question for the "Hard Penalties" Crowd

My Company Commander (Warlord) has NO weapon modeled on him (He has the cane under his arm & Arm pointing off in the distance). I OFTEN arm him with a Boltgun. How many of you fee I should be penalized for this...

JmOz01 wrote:
I have a question for the "Hard Penalties" Crowd

My Company Commander (Warlord) has NO weapon modeled on him (He has the cane under his arm & Arm pointing off in the distance). I OFTEN arm him with a Boltgun. How many of you fee I should be penalized for this...

He is not WYSIWYG, simple. So whatever penalty there is for that (often a points reduction in the final standings).

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
You're missing Peregrine's point. The folk at the bottom of the rankings will probably be enjoying themselves by getting in a few games against people of roughly similar skill levels. Dump this "top-table cheat" in there with them and now four or five people get to spend a gakky couple of hours rolling saves and removing models. "take the free win"? Now you'd better hope they brought a good book, because they're spending a large proportion of the time not playing games. Given that they paid good money to play those games, now they're being hard done by.

Writing a 40k army list is not difficult; it should be the minimum expected requirement for entering. Likewise, if I entered an event and noticed that the rules were not being enforced, I'd not come back (or leave there and then, depending on how bad it was).

I agree dumping top table cheats onto bottom table players is just a really bad idea. I understand the fact that people make mistakes but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be appropriate punishments. IMO there are 2 ways to handle illegal lists
1. The illegal unit is removed immediately from the tournament. No substitutions can be made and any game you had previously won with that unit is considered a max score loss.
2. Immediate DQ
While the DQ can seem "harsh" I think it's all about how it's presented. Yes, people make mistakes so, on someone that made an honest mistake it's "Hey Bob I know you didn't mean to but your list is illegal just double check before next months, but your list is invalid so you have been DQ". I know personally, this wouldn't bother me as id be so embarrassed I wouldn't want to continue playing that tournament anyway. Now if bob keeps doing it then you step it up to "dude you have to stop bringing illegal lists take x months to figure it out and if it happens again you can't keep playing in these". This type of approach would not only teach people to triple checklists but quickly get rid of anyone using it as a tactic to cheat games. The fastest way to tighten up the rules it to make them very clear and incredibly hard to break without getting caught.

 easysauce wrote:

njtrader wrote:

A top tier gamer does not mis-write an army list.

Except we have people like geoff robinson, use illegal lists like at the 2015 BAO, win prizes/ect and get the "oh its just a mistake so its ok" and get off scott free to keep said prizes.

Not everyone is in the cool kids click, the rules are not enforced based on "you break rule X you get the standard punishment" its

"well, if we like you, its ok, but if not, well then we punish you not only in the tournament, but to the fullest extent possible even if that extends to real life social punishments."

Who was punished for doing the same thing as Geoff Robinson?

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

njtrader wrote:
A top tier gamer does not mis-write an army list.

Except we have people like geoff robinson, use illegal lists like at the 2015 BAO, win prizes/ect and get the "oh its just a mistake so its ok" and get off scott free to keep said prizes.
Not everyone is in the cool kids click, the rules are not enforced based on "you break rule X you get the standard punishment" its
"well, if we like you, its ok, but if not, well then we punish you not only in the tournament, but to the fullest extent possible even if that extends to real life social punishments."

Who was punished for doing the same thing as Geoff Robinson?

Ryan Mead, last year's SoCal Open.

He was over 12 points or so, it wasn't caught until he was on twitch, playing last round, Top Table, versus Brandon Grant. Mead was DQ'd with no prize. He was tied with Mike Fox for Best Paint, and of course, had defeated all previous opponents, including me, his round 1 opponent.

I was there. He's my buddy. He's a popular guy and well liked by all, having won BSB ... 'Bosun' awards (are those best sports or all-round? Paint, scores, and sportsmanship?). Lotsa Best Sports awarded at GE Pasadena, too.

I know one anecdote does not totally refute poster easysauce's assertion, " the rules are not enforced based on "you break rule X you get the standard punishment" its "well, if we like you, its ok, but if not, ", but in that high profile case, the 1st of a big FLG event, in San Diego, arguably the heart of the West Coast's Top Tier player cache, on twitch, appropriate measures were taken. He was over points and when it was caught, he was DQ'd.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Which is why I don't understand why tournaments aren't implementing sportsmanship scores?

While I oppose the concept on principle, I honestly don't believe it would actually help. It's actually pretty rare to find a top table cheater who's obviously hostile towards the opponent. That stuff is easy to catch. It's been my experience that in most cases they're actually very charismatic and likable. Players get charmed and believe that they were somehow in the wrong and that lets people get away with quite a lot before they come across someone with the experience to catch them.

JmOz01 wrote:
I have a question for the "Hard Penalties" Crowd

My Company Commander (Warlord) has NO weapon modeled on him (He has the cane under his arm & Arm pointing off in the distance). I OFTEN arm him with a Boltgun. How many of you fee I should be penalized for this...

Not a hard penalty advocate, but anything other than standard wargear needs to be on the model to avoid confusion. Your model shouldn’t be used as anything other than Laspistol and Chainsword.