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 Ordana wrote:

JmOz01 wrote:
I have a question for the "Hard Penalties" Crowd

My Company Commander (Warlord) has NO weapon modeled on him (He has the cane under his arm & Arm pointing off in the distance). I OFTEN arm him with a Boltgun. How many of you fee I should be penalized for this...

He is not WYSIWYG, simple. So whatever penalty there is for that (often a points reduction in the final standings).

It's not that simple nor practical.

Let's look at the succubus. In the new 8e codex, she is now equipped with a glaive (a big pole axe) and an agonizer. The new model comes with agonizer and pole axe, but no pistol bits, even though her data sheet allows for a blast or splinter pistol upgrade. Lelith Hesperax's model has two knives, but her datasheet includes the option of an Impaler, which on other models is a pole hafted, two pronged spear.

JmOz01's guardsmen officer is the same. Modeled to look cool, but is not reflective of its papered capabilities. 40k is full of examples.

Ordana, I think if you tried to run an event with that level of WYSIWYG, you'd have the players nicely tell you it's okay, and then they'd move on.

Do my 4e (BattlefMaccragge) marines have to play without pistols because I never 'fixed' that with the 5e codex? I glued Bright Lances on to my 4 Wave Serpents back in 5e. I didn't bother to remount the Scatter Lasers in 6e (goodness, they were so awesome! ), and I won't bother altering them now.

I show my opponent what's on the army list and they're fine, at local RTTs or GTs. I build my new models as WYSIWYG as possible with the 8e loadouts.

JmOz01 wrote:
I have a question for the "Hard Penalties" Crowd

My Company Commander (Warlord) has NO weapon modeled on him (He has the cane under his arm & Arm pointing off in the distance). I OFTEN arm him with a Boltgun. How many of you fee I should be penalized for this...

He's not WYSISWG. If you're going to give a model a points upgrade, then rip off one of those arms and stick a boltgun there. I have the exact same Company Commander you have, right arm pointing forward, left arm holding stick, and a holstered pistol on his side, but I don't give him any upgrades. He's got the base laspistol and chainsword (I assume the stick has the chainsword stats). If I were to decide I want him with other purchasable options, though, then those arms would be coming off and replaced with arms wielding the appropriate weapons. And I'd do that for regular in store gaming and friendly gaming, let alone a tournament. We don't have to see everything, of course. The items which come standard for a model, free of charge, we don't have to see. Whether its pistols, grenades, etc. But if you're paying points to provide an upgrade, then the upgrade should be seen. Your opponent should know just by looking at him that the guy has a boltgun.

JmOz01 wrote:
I have a question for the "Hard Penalties" Crowd

My Company Commander (Warlord) has NO weapon modeled on him (He has the cane under his arm & Arm pointing off in the distance). I OFTEN arm him with a Boltgun. How many of you fee I should be penalized for this...

Glue a bolter to his back. Better than finding out you only won because your opponent thought he was only armed with the standard las pistol. I've glued shotguns to the back of mine.

Chief Librarian Meph, ChargerIIC, all, I don't think you're quite grasping the scope of what it takes to be WYSIWYG.


So, maybe I do rip the officer's arm off for a plasma pistol or power sword. What about the banner bearers? That helmet off and exhausted expression is really cool. As a TO, would you penalize me this model's lasgun shots? DQ me if I rolled dice for that 'not there' lasgun? And the other guy is throwing a grenade. No lasgun for him?





Here are my girls: Do I need to rip off the 3 arms of my 3 hekatrixes to up grade to blast pistols, a rare bit at that, already used up on another model? How about my converted pink haired, succubus with the 2 bladed glaive? Do I wrap an agonizer bit around her to show she has it or the blast pistol I might've upgraded for? Again, holster, blast pistol bits are not in abundance. And I have 5 venom, 4 raider, 3 wych and 3 kab warrior kits from which to chose.

And there's Lelith's option of knives or an impaler, but not offered as such by GW right now:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Eldar-Lelith-Hesperax





Does my Death Guard painted 4e dork get no pistol? How about his black painted nemesis on his left? And to go WYSIWYG, that'd be 20 to 30 models to glue on a pistol.
(Okay, C.L. Meph, you addressed this. )

If I decide to use the index autarch, and want the banshee mask, do I need to rip his head off for a banshee's head?




Mind you, I'd love it if the models had that kind of modular build (I did go with REMs on Crisis Suits for weapon swaps), but disregarding old models that don't keep up with new edtiions hurts the wallet and the hobby, which is why GW did the great thing with the indexes; giving datasheets for everything (nearly) they've ever released.


Game, after tournament game, I appreciate WYSIWYG, but if it's on paper, then I'm happy. I can check my opponent's list anytime, and it's on me to do so, that goes both ways for each player, his models and mine, within reason.

JmOz01 wrote:
I have a question for the "Hard Penalties" Crowd

My Company Commander (Warlord) has NO weapon modeled on him (He has the cane under his arm & Arm pointing off in the distance). I OFTEN arm him with a Boltgun. How many of you fee I should be penalized for this...

Make a holstered gun on the model, or bluetack a boltgun lying or standing next him for WYSIWYG play.

A common WYSIWYG practice in the past was that only options(upgrades) needed to be modeled. So if you take a company commander and he has no weapons represented on the stock model, it is automatically fair and assumed to come with the basic stock equipment on his profile. If you decide to add a plasma pistol, you must then represent that weapon.

Holy cow that's a lot of picking and choosing.

No - relics are not normally WYSIWYG. No big surprise there unless you've never attended an event before. It's normal to declare relics at the start of the game as you well know. It's a couple sentences that the other player can easily remember. The three paragraphs of text you include as well is beyond reasonable exception for another player to memorize in the 1 minute before gameplay begins. The Astra Miliatrum command squad sprue includes lasrifles and laspistrols in holsters specifically so you can WYSIWYG. I've outfitted mine with a mix of lasrifles and shotguns and a quick visual check lets the other player know which is which so there's no surprise when officer X fires an assault 2 weapon.

No one wants to be nailed by a clutch plasma pistol or bolter in the middle of match. That's why we have WYSIWYG. That's why you can submit your list (with pics) to a TO before a big event and generally know ahead of time if you are uncertain if you meet WYSIWYG. I've had to do so for BAO in regards to my paint schemes and use of clear terrain bases. It takes around 5 minutes and I'll carry the response with me at the tournament.

Plasma Pistols are a good example because they have a big psychological impact. With supercharging, they can have a much bigger effect that a normal officer pistol and it actively discourages your opponent from lining up 2 wound or damaged multi-wound models anywhere near them. Even if you properly use the item as a laspistol, you are playing this meta-mind game in which you opponent is likely to avoid an officer that they shouldn't be afraid of.

This is a competitive environment and that means fairness has to take precedence. WYSIWYG is a cornerstone of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
A common WYSIWYG practice in the past was that only options(upgrades) needed to be modeled. So if you take a company commander and he has no weapons represented on the stock model, it is automatically fair and assumed to come with the basic stock equipment on his profile. If you decide to add a plasma pistol, you must then represent that weapon.

I think it's still a practice. Noone is surprised when a company commander has a las pistol. I think some people are just taking WYSIWYG arguments to silly levels in hope of avoiding the actual discussion.

WYSIWYG needs to be there. If a model has upgraded to a non-standard Bolter or whatnot, then model it. Rule of Cool doesn't trump WYSIWYG weapons.

I don't get to say that my vaulting SM with no weapons is actually carrying a Plasma Cannon just because I think he looks cool. If it has a Plasma Cannon, the it needs to be carrying one, simple as that.

There is no way im buying 200 shootas and arms and sawing off the arms on my AOBR boyz if I want to run them as shootas AND magnetizing all 400 arms so they can also be slugga boyz

 Billagio wrote:
There is no way im buying 200 shootas and arms and sawing off the arms on my AOBR boyz if I want to run them as shootas AND magnetizing all 400 arms so they can also be slugga boyz

Then at a tournament they are slugga boys only. It isn't that hard.

I think it's still a practice. Noone is surprised when a company commander has a las pistol. I think some people are just taking WYSIWYG arguments to silly levels in hope of avoiding the actual discussion.

Yeah, some people are engaging in heavy strawman arguments to defend their positions, which I take as a sign that they know their position is indefensible, so they have to try to take it absurd lengths to make their position reasonable.

Everyone knows that standard gear doesn't have to be WYSIWYG, because it's understood that every model has its core equipment. You don't have to model a bolt pistol, frag grenades, or krak grenades on a Tactical Marine, because we all know that Tactical Marines come with that as standard. You don't have to model a laspistol or a chainsword on a Company Commander because we all know that laspistols and chainswords come standard on Company Commanders. The only time they don't have those weapons are when they're replaced by purchasable options, in which case, yes, those purchasable options should be visible on the model. If you replaced the laspistol with a boltgun or bolt pistol, then we should see the boltgun or bolt pistol on the model in some way. If you replaced the chainsword with a power fist, then we should see the power fist. In a tournament setting that should absolutely be a requirement. And if you don't have the appropriate model, or don't want to redo your existing models, then use them as they are. Simple.

I really wish people were a bit less black and white, really makes it hard to have a constructive conversation.

For WYSIWYG, that is a decision for each tournament. Talk to the TO about it, any conversation you have on here is pointless as each TO is free to word their rules for that how they want. Don't like it? Don't play in that tournament, easy peasy.

One point I *really* want to make for TO's though, especially since I know many of you reading this thread have read some people's responses and likely rolled your eyes so hard you had to see a doctor. (I know I damn near did a few times) While there are a lot of people here advocating for something just barely short of the death penalty for cheaters you really do need to understand that how you run your events will effect your attendance and have an affect greater than your single event that could easily span years.

I'll use one of the gaming groups I hang out with as an example. For the most part this group is a fairly laid back bunch but 2-3 years ago they did occasionally play in tournaments, mostly to just get some games in against people they didn't normally play. That stopped after they had a particularly bad experience at a tournament. One of the players was TFG both being rude and cheating two of the members of the gaming group but he was aggressive and friends with the TO and got away with it. I don't even remember if he won the tournament but during it when the 2 players from that local group questioned a particular rule one got basically shouted down by TFG and the other stood up enough to get the TO to come over but he sided immediately with his friend. I am not even sure he had enough time to mentally consider the question before just saying that "Yeah it works like he (referring to his friend) says." Now because of that bad experience an entire group of 8-10 players do not play in tournaments any longer because of the terrible experience of 2 of it's players. And it's not just tournaments run by that particular TO (no surprise but they don't run events any longer) but any tournament. The tournament scene lost close to 10 players because of one person who was not kicked out of a tournament for being a cheating nob.

And maybe the Maryland/Virginia area is an oddity as far as 40K gaming goes but in my now 20+ years of playing 40K in the area and on and off again playing in tournaments their experience is not unique, at all. I've been the victim of an aggressive cheater and have stood up to them before and credit where it is due when I did stand up the TO was usually very professional and sorted things out. The flip side though is that the community always knew who these players were and I literally cannot think of any time where someone was banned, or hell even removed from a tournament short of yelling and screaming like a maniac and damn near flipping a table. And often times the reason for this was that they were friends with the TO or at least familiar enough with them to where they got away with it.

So yeah, seeing someone on here demand a banning because someone wants to put a bolter on their commander without cutting the models arm off may make you roll your eyes as a TO but I have got to tell you that not everyone pushing for tough repercussions is a nut job, many of them have likely had bad experiences that make them think like that and it is every TO's job to make sure that doesn't happened. Coming on here and telling people that cheating isn't a problem when many of us have seen it often just makes the people who feel victimized angrier, which makes them escalate, which makes you roll your eyes harder and post something that just keeps the cycle going.

Everyone, regardless of where they fall on the issue of punishment for tournament infractions is going to be ultra vigilant now with everything that has gone on in 2018, it may not be fair but TO's are going to be held to a very, very high standard because of it and they need to be ready to handle the fallout.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
There is no way im buying 200 shootas and arms and sawing off the arms on my AOBR boyz if I want to run them as shootas AND magnetizing all 400 arms so they can also be slugga boyz

Then at a tournament they are slugga boys only. It isn't that hard.

Exactly. If you want to play Shootas, then the models need to be Shootas. If you're fielding Sluggas on the tabletop, they need to be purchased as such.

Otherwise, don't attend the Tournament.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
WYSIWYG needs to be there. If a model has upgraded to a non-standard Bolter or whatnot, then model it. Rule of Cool doesn't trump WYSIWYG weapons.

I don't get to say that my vaulting SM with no weapons is actually carrying a Plasma Cannon just because I think he looks cool. If it has a Plasma Cannon, the it needs to be carrying one, simple as that.

This is a strawman fallacy;. Of course, a heavy wep needs to be modeled. Proxying MLs for LasCans would be pushing tolerance (certainly by the posts in this thread), but if I was a TO, at an RTT, with a newer player, I'd let it slide. But, he better have LasCans at the next event, especially for a long announced GT.

But pistols, blast and plasma, are those ubiquitous little upgrades that often are a last consideration because they help close the last 30 or so points in a list. *And* the bits are more difficult to come by, as far as dark elves go.

I did carve and convert several of the 'special' guns for Trueborn blasters, so when those models hit the table, they decided *don't* have splinter rifles and won't be confused with the kab units.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Holy cow that's a lot of picking and choosing.

No - relics are not normally WYSIWYG. No big surprise there unless you've never attended an event before. It's normal to declare relics at the start of the game as you well know. It's a couple sentences that the other player can easily remember. The three paragraphs of text you include as well is beyond reasonable exception for another player to memorize in the 1 minute before gameplay begins.

ChargerIIC,
I am confused with the "three paragraphs of text you include as well" and I didn't mention a relic ... so this response isn't necessarily to me? The 'holy cow' part is.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The Astra Miliatrum command squad sprue includes lasrifles and laspistrols in holsters specifically so you can WYSIWYG. I've outfitted mine with a mix of lasrifles and shotguns and a quick visual check lets the other player know which is which so there's no surprise when officer X fires an assault 2 weapon.

No one wants to be nailed by a clutch plasma pistol or bolter in the middle of match. That's why we have WYSIWYG. That's why you can submit your list (with pics) to a TO before a big event and generally know ahead of time if you are uncertain if you meet WYSIWYG. I've had to do so for BAO in regards to my paint schemes and use of clear terrain bases. It takes around 5 minutes and I'll carry the response with me at the tournament.

So, if we get matched up this weekend, will you be okay with the 3 hekatrix sergeants being quipped with blast pistols? All of them, so it won't be , "Wait, which hekatrix has the blast pistol?" And the succubus with the dual blades?

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Plasma Pistols are a good example because they have a big psychological impact. With supercharging, they can have a much bigger effect that a normal officer pistol and it actively discourages your opponent from lining up 2 wound or damaged multi-wound models anywhere near them. Even if you properly use the item as a laspistol, you are playing this meta-mind game in which you opponent is likely to avoid an officer that they shouldn't be afraid of.

I agree.

Its built in problem, is that it is often used to spend up to the points limit, like an extra Storm Bolter on a rhino.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
This is a competitive environment and that means fairness has to take precedence. WYSIWYG is a cornerstone of that.

I agree very much so, but I'm trying to stem the Hard Line some posters are advocating, because the model arm/gun 'ripping off' thing can get out of hand.

I have DLs on my raiders. On paper, it says Dinintegrator Cannons. Will that be an issue?

In 5e, when I got them, I put splinter cannons on top of the venoms, as well as the one underneath. Now, on paper, these are naked venoms, so the top gun ought to be a twin splinter rifle, of which, there is no bit. Will that be an issue?


I'm curious, what were the 'clear terrain" issues?


ChargerIIC, PM me with yer name so we can meet and shake hands at BAO.

Nope. If you are in a Tournament, and you want to field a Lascannon then it needs to look like one. If you put MLs on the table, they're MLs. If you buy a Plasma pistol, it's got to be on the model.

Casually, sure, do whatever. But in a Tournament, I should expect full WYSIWYG, and players who chose not to comply should be penalized

I agree, this is definitely an issue unique to tournament play. Using proxies, especially with Wargear is completely fine in a casual game, but as soon as I sign up for a major tournament I would expect I need to be on point with everything.

Lets take a Chaos Lord. I fielded him all through 6th and 7th with a Lightning Claw and a Power Fist. And lets say in 8th edition i want to run him with a Power Fist and the Murder Sword for some extra versatility vs hard to put down characters. I would fully expect that to make him legal for a tournament I would need to tear off his Lightning Claw and model him with a Power Sword instead. Its just the way it is.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nope. If you are in a Tournament, and you want to field a Lascannon then it needs to look like one. If you put MLs on the table, they're MLs. If you buy a Plasma pistol, it's got to be on the model.

Casually, sure, do whatever. But in a Tournament, I should expect full WYSIWYG, and players who chose not to comply should be penalized

So, what would you do with me and my list?

3 of my DLs are DisIntegrators. I have listed blast pistols on hekatrixes and succubi, but not modeled. Utter blasphemy:
I have been using Swooping Hawks as Scourges!

I guess, JHDD, that you'd show me the door? Or simply take them off the table and I play with out their haywires?

I paid for the GT long ago, drove 300 miles. Hotel for 2 nights. What's the penalty?

Better yet, what's the fix?

I brought an illegal list last year to BAO, got DQ'd for the one game I won. Reece had my list altered to be eldar instead of Ynnari (no change in units or anything, just no more Soul Burst) and I played the last couple games as such, a happy camper. If you'd asked me to leave the venue ... well. I'm not sure how'd I would have reacted, but I can say for certain that the call made was a good one.

See, this hard stance of "Turn them Away" is going to be a hot situation when someone has spent that amount of time travel and money to show up. Think it through, man.

Players should get shown the door for *egregious* conduct and outright cheating (which is where this thread started). Which a modeled, or not modeled piece of equipment comes in too.

However, for years notifying an opponent what and where your army is still honest play, and it's on paper. And it's fine. And has been fine for every GT game I've played, and as best I can recall, every RTT. And this is going on 6 years as a tourney goer.

It's like some people feel that the rules don't apply to them... Your opponent has the right to expect every model to look like what it is. If you can't do that, don't show.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's like some people feel that the rules don't apply to them... Your opponent has the right to expect every model to look like what it is. If you can't do that, don't show.

Exactly. "I don't like how WYSIWYG looks" does not mean that it is an unreasonable standard. I don't care if you like some other model, if the rule is WYSIWYG then bring a correct one or don't play.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's like some people feel that the rules don't apply to them... Your opponent has the right to expect every model to look like what it is. If you can't do that, don't show.

I still ask, what would you do if you were the TO?

And just as I am proxying the DisIntCans, and Hawks for Commorragh pidgeons, I would afford my opponent the same latitude.

Did he glue his Castellan Robots with one gun, but has the other since 7e's change to 8e? I'm fine with that.

Does he have 3 Plasma'Cutioners because they were great in 5e, but now suck? And if he wants to play them as Gatling Cannons on all 3, is that okay? I would allow it.

As a TO, yes, at a GT. As long as the opponent was made aware and both were happy.

And, as best as I know, from these years of experience, that is how the California scene plays out. Maybe change is in the wind. Maybe someone will sputter at the hawks and refuse to allow them for scourges. Maybe.

I would bet money that the usual top table guys, Brandon Grant, PaJama pants, Cooper Waddell, etc. wouldn't begrudge it one bit.

I'll let you know after BAO.

As a TO, I'd have you remove ALL non-WYSIWYG models. If you actually play any of them, automatic game loss. If more than once, DQ.

"The upgrades I assembled aren't as good at winning" is not an excuse to break the rules. Either change the models, buy new ones with the more powerful choice, or just accept that your list isn't 100% perfectly optimized. This attitude of "breaking WYSIWYG helps me win therefore I'm entitled to do it" is exactly the problem!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As a TO, I'd have you remove ALL non-WYSIWYG models. If you actually play any of them, automatic game loss. If more than once, DQ.

Just so you're certain, that would be:
1 succubus
3 raiders
3 hekatrixes
10 to 15 'scourges' (I painted 5 black, purple dry-brush and yellow to orange to red 'heat lances')
2 venoms (twin splinter rifles on paper, splint cannons in plastic)

Of course, the smarter, more positive play would be:
a. lose the blast pistols on paper
b. use those points to upgrade DisInCans to DLs
c. pay the points to have the venoms have dual Splint Cans
d. and maybe still remove the Hawks.

I don't think your harsher action would go over well at most events, with most players. Though we disagree, thanks JHDD, for the civil discourse, srsly.

This thread certainly continues to inform.

"I traveled far and payed money, please let me break the rules that are clearly mentioned in your rules packet".

How about you read the rules instead and make sure you follow them.

Penalty depends on the tournament/TO.
Over here you would likely suffer a 20 point penalty to your final score (which is a maximum victory score for a game) for a WYSIWYG violation.
Illegal army list is full loss for every game you played with it.

No worries. Back when I was playing seriously, I went through the effort to obtain and model the "correct" (i.e. WYSIWYG) bitz for my models. As a result, I have an glut of Heavy and Special Weapons models (this was pre-magnetization). If I could do that, I'd expect my opponent to do no less.

As you note, the better "fix" is to simply play what you have. It might not be "optimal" list, but it'll be complete. That's what a lot of players do, so it's not a big deal.

OTOH, if I'm playing competitively, angling for top tables and prizes at a larger Tournament, then, absolutely, I would bring and expect WYSIWYG models.

How the heck can you talk about spending money to travel to this big tournament and spend money on a hotel but not spend money to model your units correctly? That's some insane logic right there and I really can not understand why those kinds of people don't feel the rules should apply.

This nonsense about turning players away from the tourney scene by actually enforcing rules is ludicrous. You probably didn't want those players and the insane anecdote about the TO budding with the cheater and scaring off ten tourney players is exactly why there needs to be a hard set limit accepted by the community at large. If I knew that almost universally they had draconian anti-cheating rules that were strictly enforced and I ran into a store that supported cheaters I would make it known and I would go somewhere else to expect fair play. Fostering honest play does not take away from the hobby and asking people to not proxy at an actual competitive tournament that people are paying just as much or more than you to be at means everyone should expect the same courtesy and treatment and that the organization should do everything in their power to discourage cheating.

If you want to play with not wysiwyg awesome that's totally fine and acceptable. Don't pay to go to a tournament with that same mindset because those aren't the same damn thing.

I always tell people that WYSIWYG applies to the weapons a model is armed with and is the basic standard most players expect on the model. Yes you can note it on your army list for reference; but players should be able to see the unit type and unit weapons at a glance on the table without difficulty.

Upgrades/seals/etc.... are not required as often they are tiny details that are easily overlooked and can be confused (eg many marine models have seals on them without a magical seal bonus in their stats at all).


If you want to compete I'd say make sure your army is WYSIWYG and if you take any conversions confirm them before the event to see if they are legal (ergo confirm this BEFORE spending lots of money attending). If you can't confirm before then consider:

1) Taking WYSIWYG models as well as the converted so that you can swap over if the TO rules against your models (confirm this before you start play or if impossible call over a judge at the deployment phase).

2) Taking two army lists so that you can swap over (if this is allowed) at the start of the tournament to a list which contains only legal WYSIWYG units (ergo you are, again, taking extra models).

3) Bite the bullet and make a fully WYSIWYG legal army and just take that for safety's sake.

How the heck can you talk about spending money to travel to this big tournament and spend money on a hotel but not spend money to model your units correctly? That's some insane logic right there and I really can not understand why those kinds of people don't feel the rules should apply.

Preach!

3 of my DLs are DisIntegrators. I have listed blast pistols on hekatrixes and succubi, but not modeled. Utter blasphemy:
I have been using Swooping Hawks as Scourges!

100% not ok in a tournament setting. this game is hard enough especially when you are on the clock. I should not have to try to remember what your models actually have and I should not have to waste my time looking through your list to figure it out. I am not sure where you play but I have never been in a tournament that would allow this.

 Ordana wrote:
"I traveled far and payed money, please let me break the rules that are clearly mentioned in your rules packet".

That's silly, as well as a strawman fallacy.

My point is for an event that draws players from long distances, you should not implement a draconian "See the door? Don't let it hit you on the way out." for WYSIWYG violations. Allow the player to adjust their list to fit the models, like I just posted above.

 Ordana wrote:
How about you read the rules instead and make sure you follow them.

I have been doing that. For years. And for years, the proxies I've cited these last few posts have flown just fine. Maybe it's just the California meta is more relaxed than from where you guys are posting.

 Ordana wrote:
Penalty depends on the tournament/TO.
Over here you would likely suffer a 20 point penalty to your final score (which is a maximum victory score for a game) for a WYSIWYG violation.

Good to know, but is this for a dishonest, unpaid for plasma pistol or one that the player was up-front about every time? Points legally paid?

 Ordana wrote:
Illegal army list is full loss for every game you played with it.

I totally agree, and no one would contest that. Nor did I, when it happened to me last year. I missed the GW FAQ that came out the Monday before a BAO and I had a Win switched to a Loss.