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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Man, you guys really don’t get it, do you? At all. No canonical source has Starfleet as a military force.

But it must do, because that means you can rag on Tilly for being overweight, having run out of other criticisms.

   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

@ Just tony - we are all saying the same thing.

The Federation's Starfleet does not call itself a military but to any independant or dispassionate observer it is. Its not a bad thing - just a truth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/12 22:01:26


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Man, you guys really don’t get it, do you? At all. No canonical source has Starfleet as a military force.

But it must do, because that means you can rag on Tilly for being overweight, having run out of other criticisms.


yes it does, every episode of every series of star trek shows quite clearly the federation is a military force, it also shows quite clearly that it does not consider itself a military force, also, if its not a military why does it have warships?

Edit: oh and like i said, i have no issues with tilly being fat, in fact i see a lot of fat woman in the army every day, that is the most realistic thing STD has, a woman that looks like the normal kind of woman you find in the military.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/12 22:07:18


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Man, you guys really don’t get it, do you? At all. No canonical source has Starfleet as a military force.


It's really not hard to take canon as "Starfleet is a military force that doesn't call itself one."

Starfleet operates as the Federations defacto defense force during wartime, making any claim to not being a military ideological, rather than technical. Sisko openly calls the Defiant a warship. The Federation calls it an escort for PR reasons. The Sovereign and Prometheus classes are also openly called regarded as warships. Pretty sure there are times where Picard and even Kirk discuss how Starfleet isn't a military, but I think the subtext is pretty strong by the time we get to the end of DS9 and Voyager that Starfleet's "we're not a military" bit is mostly about how the organization, and the Federation, want to be perceived.

But it must do, because that means you can rag on Tilly for being overweight, having run out of other criticisms.


I think the more simple explanation is that some of us got in on one line of discussion for reasons completely unrelated to Tilly, and don't care that much about her at all, let alone her weight. I think her character is weak for completely unrelated reasons.

   
Made in us
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Monticello, IN

Formosa wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Memoryalpha.

Says exactly the same.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet

Wiki simply came up first when I searched ‘Starfleet Charter’

Starfleet. Still not a military.


Starfleet is not a military to starfleet, to everyone else both in and out of universe, its a military.


Even other members of the Federation think so. Remember Dr. David Marcus? The rant he went on about scientists ALWAYS being pawns of the military. Would that fit Mad Doc's canonical requirement, do you think?

Also, if you want to go as far back as TOS, how many non-military organizations have court-martial proceedings?

Mr Morden wrote:@ Just tony - we are all saying the same thing.

The Federation's Starfleet does not call itself a military but to any independant or dispassionate observer it is. Its not a bad thing - just a truth.


I think we're starting to get a little mixed up about who is arguing what point here.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in gb
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UK

 Just Tony wrote:
Formosa wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Memoryalpha.

Says exactly the same.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet

Wiki simply came up first when I searched ‘Starfleet Charter’

Starfleet. Still not a military.


Starfleet is not a military to starfleet, to everyone else both in and out of universe, its a military.


Even other members of the Federation think so. Remember Dr. David Marcus? The rant he went on about scientists ALWAYS being pawns of the military. Would that fit Mad Doc's canonical requirement, do you think?

Also, if you want to go as far back as TOS, how many non-military organizations have court-martial proceedings?

Mr Morden wrote:@ Just tony - we are all saying the same thing.

The Federation's Starfleet does not call itself a military but to any independant or dispassionate observer it is. Its not a bad thing - just a truth.


I think we're starting to get a little mixed up about who is arguing what point here.


Sorry I was not clear - I meant that we were all saying the same thing - including you - just one person who disagreed.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
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Sweden

 Formosa wrote:
now STD may want to change this but since its not prime universe its not canon anyway,


You cannot discount STD when we're explicitly discussing a character in STD. That just does not work.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






What makes you think Disco isn't in the Prime Universe? Have I missed something?

   
Made in gb
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Earth

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What makes you think Disco isn't in the Prime Universe? Have I missed something?


The fact its not allowed to be by CBS and that all mechandising rights go to Bad Robot (and paramount) thats why all the species, ships, uniforms etc. have to be at least 25% different from the canon series, STD is not prime timeline so is not canon, same as the JJ verse, its an alternate universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
now STD may want to change this but since its not prime universe its not canon anyway,


You cannot discount STD when we're explicitly discussing a character in STD. That just does not work.



Yes I can and dont quote me out of context walrus.

"then the constitution class, its a heavy cruiser designed to take on the klingons, now STD may want to change this but since its not prime universe its not canon anyway,"

STD only affect STD lore, not prime universe lore, so when discussing STD lore i take it into account, when discussing the prime universe ships as I was I can discount STD lore, since its not canon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/13 12:49:24


 
   
Made in gb
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But all sources point to it being the Prime Universe, and thusly canon?

   
Made in de
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But all sources point to it being the Prime Universe, and thusly canon?


As I understand it, due to corporate shenanigans STD is made on a different license then previous ST series, a license that stipulates that all content made on this license has to differ from previous ST with about 25%. So STD is Prime universe but it's a separate Prime universe from the previous ST series.

The Youtube channel Midnight's Edge have done some videos on the subject.
   
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USA

 Formosa wrote:


The fact its not allowed to be by CBS and that all mechandising rights go to Bad Robot (and paramount) thats why all the species, ships, uniforms etc. have to be at least 25% different from the canon series, STD is not prime timeline so is not canon, same as the JJ verse, its an alternate universe.


???

These are rules CBS has enforced, but their rules for products not produced by CBS (STO has to do this for example). Paramount has always had movie rights to the franchise going back to the Motion Picture, so I'm not sure how their involvement has anything to do with it, and merchandising rights for the franchise have always been rather all over the place. All production materials, and even advertisements when the series was in early production, went out of their way to state "Prime timeline prime timeline, not Kelvin" since the reboot movie universe has a shaky at best relationship with the fanbase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dyndraig wrote:
The Youtube channel Midnight's Edge have done some videos on the subject.


I think I've seen the video your talking about, and it's mostly just 50 minutes of fan rage from someone with too much time on their hands to over analyze things (and commits a frequent silliness of the "old guard" fandom of taking non-canon materials as word of god and then using those materials to invent contradictions, ignoring that Star Trek has frequently been contradictory with it's history).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/13 14:43:18


   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

These are rules CBS has enforced, but their rules for products not produced by CBS (STO has to do this for example). Paramount has always had movie rights to the franchise going back to the Motion Picture, so I'm not sure how their involvement has anything to do with it, and merchandising rights for the franchise have always been rather all over the place. All production materials, and even advertisements when the series was in early production, went out of their way to state "Prime timeline prime timeline, not Kelvin" since the reboot movie universe has a shaky at best relationship with the fanbase.


They are lying pure and simple, had they been honest and said that STD wasnt prime universe, then a lot of people would not have bothered watching it, so they lied, now that its clear it is not prime timeline some people are pissed, others, like me, just go "meh" its not canon and is an alternate universe, so will take it for what it is, a sci fi story with a trek skin, its their own CBS universe and it lets them do anything they want and make anything they want, none of which will affect the prime universe.

Some of the biggest changes are

An android before Data serving in starfleet
The Klingons.......
The Technology
The Uniforms
The 4 year war is now at most a year long
the ships

there are lots more but point is that these are major canon breaking problems, problems that will get a lot worse as time goes on, wait till they show spock, gaks gonna hit the fan when they screw that up.
   
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Are they lying, or are you wrong?

Ponder ponder ponder.

Also, that's not an android.

   
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Earth

Yep they are, in all fairness it wasn't clear at first but then as the series went on it became very clear they lied, and continue to do so, but hey, it's CBS trek so they can do what they like.

I must ask you however, how do you explain the massive, and they are massive, inconsistencies between CBS trek and prime trek?
   
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USA

 Formosa wrote:
They are lying pure and simple, had they been honest and said that STD wasnt prime universe, then a lot of people would not have bothered watching it, so they lied, now that its clear it is not prime timeline some people are pissed, others, like me, just go "meh" its not canon and is an alternate universe, so will take it for what it is, a sci fi story with a trek skin, its their own CBS universe and it lets them do anything they want and make anything they want, none of which will affect the prime universe.


This entire paragraph makes no sense. Canon contradictions don't create alternate universes. Sometimes developers are just lazy because they don't care. Why would CBS need their own universe to do what they want? They're the original rights holders going back to TOS. Star Trek is literally whatever they say it is.

An android before Data serving in starfleet


TOS once claimed 2245 was the first year a medical officer served on a Starfleet ship. Then Enterprise went and had Doctor Phlox, probably because that was a silly claim.

I assume you're talking about Airiam? She's never been called an androids. The oldest development notes call her a "synthetic-human hybrid" which sounds like a bizarre way of saying cyborg to me. Now she's apparently an alien. I'm kind of baffled by her, mostly because someone clearly really likes her since they keep sticking her in places, but I don't know why she's not given any real characterization if she's so interesting.

The Klingons.......


The Klingon's have been retconned before. Honestly, I desperately wish people had just listened to Roddenberry and "pretended they always looked like that" when they were redesigned for Star Trek III. Discovery's retcon and redesign are horrible, but honestly the constant obsession with changes in the aesthetic of the series are annoying and the lowest point of fan pickiness. It's not 1967 anymore. Why should we limit things made in the present as if we were still operating fifty years ago?

Not that I think this retconned is good, it's pretty god awful, but god awful retcons aren't automatically canon conflicts, and canon conflicts don't suddenly spawn new timelines. I blame Fuller.

The Technology


It's not 1967 anymore.

The Uniforms


It's not 1967 anymore.

The 4 year war is now at most a year long


You're confusing the FASA RPG with canon again. In canon Axanar was fought against an unstated enemy for an unstated length of time, with no clarification on whether it was part of a larger conflict. Canon doesn't even identify when the battle happened, only that Garth was involved and it was kind of a big deal.

the ships


It's not 1967 anymore.

That said, I don't like Discovery's design. I feel like the Phase II enterprise design got ditched in the 80s for really good reasons. I can't fathom what process lead to anyone wanting to revive that eyesore. I blame Fuller.

there are lots more but point is that these are major canon breaking problems


You have yet to sight a single canon conflict that isn't purely aesthetic (which is the bottom of the barrel and a real stretch), or not remotely a canon conflict.

This is why I hate fandom.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/13 16:08:52


   
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Earth

This entire paragraph makes no sense. Canon contradictions don't create alternate universes. Sometimes developers are just lazy because they don't care. Why would CBS need their own universe to do what they want? They're the original rights holders going back to TOS. Star Trek is literally whatever they say it is.


Its an alternate universe because its internally inconsistent with esablished events and externally inconsistent.


TOS once claimed 2245 was the first year a medical officer served on a Starfleet ship. Then Enterprise went and had Doctor Phlox, probably because that was a silly claim.


Phlox was not a medical officer because he was not starfleet.

I assume you're talking about Airiam? She's never been called an androids. The oldest development notes call her a "synthetic-human hybrid" which sounds like a bizarre way of saying cyborg to me. Now she's apparently an alien. I'm kind of baffled by her, mostly because someone clearly really likes her since they keep sticking her in places, but I don't know why she's not given any real characterization if she's so interesting.


She appears to be an android, but i concede i may be wrong.


The Klingon's have been retconned before. Honestly, I desperately wish people had just listened to Roddenberry and "pretended they always looked like that" when they were redesigned for Star Trek III. Discovery's retcon and redesign are horrible, but honestly the constant obsession with changes in the aesthetic of the series are annoying and the lowest point of fan pickiness. It's not 1967 anymore. Why should we limit things made in the present as if we were still operating fifty years ago?


An inconsistency that was fixed by the prime timeline, these klingons are in no way like any other klingons we have seen, they are also inconsistent with the human looking klingons in the prime timeline and TOS, they fixed the issue in prime, they completely changed the race in STD.

Not that I think this retconned is good, it's pretty god awful, but god awful retcons aren't automatically canon conflicts, and canon conflicts don't suddenly spawn new timelines. I blame Fuller.


I agree its partly fullers fault, but this is not a retcon, its a total rewrite, we already know the events of the 4 year war, kirk fought in it, that and his sons murder are why he hates and distrusts klingons, the STD klingons in tech, look and culture are radically different from established trek canon.


It's not 1967 anymore.


Enterprise managed it... mostly

It's not 1967 anymore.


And yet even the JJ verse still managed to do it almost right, pike is wearing the wrong uniform when he boards the discovery, why is it different? why is he not wearing the established uniform of the period, because its not prime trek.

You're confusing the FASA RPG with canon again. In canon Axanar was fought against an unstated enemy for an unstated length of time, with no clarification on whether it was part of a larger conflict. Canon doesn't even identify when the battle happened, only that Garth was involved and it was kind of a big deal.


you were wrong about that last time and you are wrong about this again

I
t's not 1967 anymore.


Technology is better than established norms for the time, enterprise again tried to make sure that you could see a link between TOS that would come later in the time line, why, because its prime timeline.

You have yet to sight a single canon conflict that isn't purely aesthetic (which is the bottom of the barrel and a real stretch), or not remotely a canon conflict.


Characters are wrong, events are wrong, history is wrong, aesthetics are wrong, tech is wrong, etc. etc. but sure, scraping the barrel, try actually watching star trek rather than reading wikipedia and maybe you would know what your talking about eh

   
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USA

 Formosa wrote:

Its an alternate universe because its internally inconsistent with esablished events and externally inconsistent.


I don't see it.

Phlox was not a medical officer because he was not starfleet.


That's an even flimsier distinction than attacking the aesthetics.

An inconsistency that was fixed by the prime timeline,


I wouldn't say it was fixed. I'd say it was made stupid. There was no reason to explain why makeup design had improved. At least that change generally made the Klingon's more cool. I'd consider their TNG era presentation as the high point. Disco is definitely a low point, and the way the houses are presented as working doesn't make much sense. There's nothing inherently contradictory about it though. We don't know much about Klingon political history. Star Trek has typically been about the Federation.

this is not a retcon, its a total rewrite


A distinction without a difference.

we already know the events of the 4 year war


The 4 Year War isn't canon.

kirk fought in it, that and his sons murder are why he hates and distrusts klingons,


Kirk only had two children. Neither of them died during a war, though debatably one of them did die during a slaughter (or horrible writing cause man Paradise Syndrome was a cringe worthy episode of TV).

the STD klingons in tech, look and culture are radically different from established trek canon.


Oh I agree. I loath the redesigned starships we've seen in Discovery. They all look like something produced by a teenage edge lord, not the industrial grunge style that developed in previous works and worked really well. How on Earth is the D7 improved by sticking spiky bits on it? Have the Chaos Gods invaded while no one was watching?

Enterprise managed it... mostly


I did like the aesthetic of Enterprise. A shame the writing wasn't up to par.

why is he not wearing the established uniform of the period, because its not prime trek.


Because it's not 1967 anymore, and because the original uniform design of the period is, frankly, cheap and cheesy. I do not miss it.

you were wrong about that last time and you are wrong about this again


You're more than welcome to go watch Whom Gods Destroy. It's the only episode where Axanar is ever mentioned. Prior to Discovery, the only canon war between the Federation and the Klingons is the one that takes place in TOS and barely even qualifies as a war.

The 4 Year War is from the 2000s RPG game developed by FASA, and it was built around the unexplained events of Axanar, but it's not canon. I know for a fact that stuff about Kirk isn't in it either. I've got the book right over on the shelf.

Technology is better than established norms for the time, enterprise again tried to make sure that you could see a link between TOS that would come later in the time line, why, because its prime timeline.


If that's how you justify your head canon go for it. Not sure why it needs to be justified but w/e.

try actually watching star trek rather than reading wikipedia and maybe you would know what your talking about eh


I'm starting to wonder how much Star Trek you've watched. Kirk only had two kids. One died in the womb in 45 minutes of awful television. The other was killed by Klingon's in Star Trek III. Neither of them died during a war (unless we're counting the Federatio-Klingon Cold War but that's not what I sense you're talking about).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/13 17:35:56


   
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I mean, she'd technically be a gynoid, so saying she wasn't an android is technically correct.
   
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USA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I mean, she'd technically be a gynoid, so saying she wasn't an android is technically correct.


Until they bother to have her be more than neat looking window dressing we’ll probably never know. I’ve seen contradicting answers as to whether she’s human or alien, and as to whether she’s organic or synthetic and how much.

Have they bother having her as more than a backdrop character in S2 thus far? It was hard to miss her in S1 cause she was always there but I don’t remember her ever having much character time. Reminds of the robot guy from the reboots. They said he was a cyborg and that sounded cool but he had like one line despite being on the bridge crew in all three films.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/13 22:52:21


   
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Earth

I don't see it.


you choose not to see it

That's an even flimsier distinction than attacking the aesthetics.


Tough luck, he isnt part of starfleet so the reference stands.

I wouldn't say it was fixed. I'd say it was made stupid. There was no reason to explain why makeup design had improved. At least that change generally made the Klingon's more cool. I'd consider their TNG era presentation as the high point. Disco is definitely a low point, and the way the houses are presented as working doesn't make much sense. There's nothing inherently contradictory about it though. We don't know much about Klingon political history. Star Trek has typically been about the Federation.


It was still addressed and fixed, if this was prime timeline then klingons should look humanish.

A distinction without a difference.


A very important distinction, a small retcon would be ok, this was not a small change, STD klingons are klingon in name only.

The 4 Year War isn't canon.


Keep reading that wikipedia

Kirk only had two children. Neither of them died during a war, though debatably one of them did die during a slaughter (or horrible writing cause man Paradise Syndrome was a cringe worthy episode of TV).


Star trek III, his son is murdered by a klingon....

Oh I agree. I loath the redesigned starships we've seen in Discovery. They all look like something produced by a teenage edge lord, not the industrial grunge style that developed in previous works and worked really well. How on Earth is the D7 improved by sticking spiky bits on it? Have the Chaos Gods invaded while no one was watching?


Total crap, total total crap.... we agree on this at least

I did like the aesthetic of Enterprise. A shame the writing wasn't up to par.


It got a lot better in the end, it needed another season I think

Because it's not 1967 anymore, and because the original uniform design of the period is, frankly, cheap and cheesy. I do not miss it.


That reasoning does not hold up, trouble with tribbles was not made in 1967 (DS9 one) and they made the uniforms.

If that's how you justify your head canon go for it. Not sure why it needs to be justified but w/e.


Sure my head canon, i have the entirety of trek backing me, you have... nothing, just your opinion, thats it, show me or explain to me how they have changed so much how everything is so different and make it consistent with previous trek, or better still, show me in any trek where spock had a sister, and show me in STD where spocks brother is, shouldnt be too hard since its my head canon

I'm starting to wonder how much Star Trek you've watched. Kirk only had two kids. One died in the womb in 45 minutes of awful television. The other was killed by Klingon's in Star Trek III. Neither of them died during a war (unless we're counting the Federatio-Klingon Cold War but that's not what I sense you're talking about).


Says the man who has been wrong on multiple comments so far, and I said Kirk fought in the war "COMMA" that AND his sons murder by a klingon, never said the boy died in war.
   
Made in us
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USA

 Formosa wrote:
Tough luck, he isnt part of starfleet so the reference stands.


That's just silly.

Keep reading that wikipedia


Cite the episode that ever uses the words 4, Year, and War as a noun.

I will wait. You can keep saying I'm just reading the wiki but the only thing I've looked up since we started was that android/gynoid/cyborgs/whatever she is' name, cause I knew who you were talking about but sue me she's literally a piece of window dressing as far as the plot is concerned. I didn't know her name. At the end of the day I know you're not going to find anything if only because I've had this debate a dozen times already with the nuts who got super butt hurt over Axanar fan film.

Easy enough to prove me wrong. You did it earlier on the cruiser bit.

It got a lot better in the end, it needed another season I think


IDK. Season 4 had some of Enterpris's best episodes, but some pretty bad ones too. Season 3 has grown on me over time, but it's still pretty blarg. Definitely improvement as the series went on, and once it dropped the whole time war angle, but I still feel it was pretty weak. That said the ideas the writers talked about wanted to do in season 5 are pretty sweet.

That reasoning does not hold up, trouble with tribbles was not made in 1967 (DS9 one) and they made the uniforms.


I give it a pass because the episode was fun. Easily the best of the contributions to the 30th anniversary of the franchise. Even if it started the stupid trend of "we have to explain why the Klingon's look different."

The uniforms were still cheesy.

i have the entirety of trek backing me


Name the episode/movie.

show me in any trek where spock had a sister, and show me in STD where spocks brother is


Honestly, I think that's just an example of bad writing and lazy development. Twice over actually. Don't remember Spock mentioned as ever having a brother prior to STV (or after for that matter, I swear everyone just wanted to pretend that movie never happened), and they certainly never mentioned him having a sister. Let alone a human sister. Odd things for Spock to never mention to anyone until some new product comes along, but then STV was pretty bad and Discovery is so shaky for me on every level.

Berhman is terrible, both as a character and a piece of lore. This I think we agree on XD

and I said Kirk fought in the war "COMMA" that AND his sons murder by a klingon, never said the boy died in war.


Ah I see. Misunderstood then.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 04:23:41


   
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 LordofHats wrote:
How on Earth is the D7 improved by sticking spiky bits on it? Have the Chaos Gods invaded while no one was watching?


Apparently it's not, given that the first Klingon scene in season 2 is of the D7 (sans spike, from what I can see) being introduced as an improvement to the existing Klingon warships.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





What is and isn't canon is a nebulous concept, but I think you could make a good argument that STD is separate universe. Considering that the license that enables it specifically states that it has to differ from previous incarnations, ergo it's legally obligated to not keep things in canon.
   
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dyndraig wrote:
What is and isn't canon is a nebulous concept,


It’s really not. It’s literally TV episodes and movies and it’s been that way since fans started asking in the 80s. The Animated series is kind of nebulous cause they say it’s not canon but then they treated it like it was at times so *shrugs*

but I think you could make a good argument that STD is separate universe. Considering that the license that enables it specifically states that it has to differ from previous incarnations, ergo it's legally obligated to not keep things in canon.


What license? STD isn’t made on a license it’s made directly by the original rights holder. They don’t need a license and they don’t have one as far as I can tell. The only source for this I can find are things written by angry fans who seem to have pulled it from thin air.

   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






If memory serves, the differences required are purely cosmetic. So CBS can't use Paramounts design of the Enterprise, and vice versa.

Otherwise, we'd see Captain Krik, Irishy, Skeleton MacCoy, Professor Spot, Chenkov, Uvavu and Hulu as the crew in the movies. Which of course we don't.

It's nothing to do with the plot. Otherwise, all the Star Trek films. All of them. Having been made by different rights holders to the TV series, would be non-canon, because they're now owned by someone other than CBS.

Seriously. It's fine if you don't particularly enjoy Discovery. It's equally fine if you utterly loathe it. But please, stop with the Neckbeard Acrobatics to claim it's non-canon, just because you don't like it. It just makes us all look silly.

Here's a handy guide to the corporate history of Trek for ease of reference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 12:21:38


   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum







Is this tangent done yet? Though fascinating (but not as fascinating as the is Starfleet a military organisation tangent) I do wonder if we are going too off track in the specific Discovery thread. Incidentaly I did enjoy that the crew in the marathon scene were wearing tops that said Disco.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






If you stand them side by side in a race with Sulu, would it read Enter Disco?

   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





 LordofHats wrote:


It’s really not. It’s literally TV episodes and movies and it’s been that way since fans started asking in the 80s. The Animated series is kind of nebulous cause they say it’s not canon but then they treated it like it was at times so *shrugs*


I 'm talking about canon in the wider sense and it's rarely cut and dry what's canon and what's not.

 LordofHats wrote:


What license? STD isn’t made on a license it’s made directly by the original rights holder. They don’t need a license and they don’t have one as far as I can tell. The only source for this I can find are things written by angry fans who seem to have pulled it from thin air.


I'm no expert on the corporate history of this, but my understanding of it is that there is a split in the rights of ST due to the Viacom split, and it seems that has effects on the ST content that is being produced. But as this is considered tangent we dont have to go in deeper about it.

Spoiler:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If memory serves, the differences required are purely cosmetic. So CBS can't use Paramounts design of the Enterprise, and vice versa.

Otherwise, we'd see Captain Krik, Irishy, Skeleton MacCoy, Professor Spot, Chenkov, Uvavu and Hulu as the crew in the movies. Which of course we don't.

It's nothing to do with the plot. Otherwise, all the Star Trek films. All of them. Having been made by different rights holders to the TV series, would be non-canon, because they're now owned by someone other than CBS.

Seriously. It's fine if you don't particularly enjoy Discovery. It's equally fine if you utterly loathe it. But please, stop with the Neckbeard Acrobatics to claim it's non-canon, just because you don't like it. It just makes us all look silly.

Here's a handy guide to the corporate history of Trek for ease of reference.


No, what's making you look silly is attacking people for "Neckbeard Acrobatics" when someone discusses the canon of a show you like.

But nice projection, I haven't actually seen STD so I dont have an opinion about it either way. My interest was if the rights issue had effects on modern ST, but as that is a tangent we dont have to go further into that.
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum







dyndraig wrote:
Spoiler:
 LordofHats wrote:


It’s really not. It’s literally TV episodes and movies and it’s been that way since fans started asking in the 80s. The Animated series is kind of nebulous cause they say it’s not canon but then they treated it like it was at times so *shrugs*


I 'm talking about canon in the wider sense and it's rarely cut and dry what's canon and what's not.

 LordofHats wrote:


What license? STD isn’t made on a license it’s made directly by the original rights holder. They don’t need a license and they don’t have one as far as I can tell. The only source for this I can find are things written by angry fans who seem to have pulled it from thin air.


I'm no expert on the corporate history of this, but my understanding of it is that there is a split in the rights of ST due to the Viacom split, and it seems that has effects on the ST content that is being produced. But as this is considered tangent we dont have to go in deeper about it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If memory serves, the differences required are purely cosmetic. So CBS can't use Paramounts design of the Enterprise, and vice versa.

Otherwise, we'd see Captain Krik, Irishy, Skeleton MacCoy, Professor Spot, Chenkov, Uvavu and Hulu as the crew in the movies. Which of course we don't.

It's nothing to do with the plot. Otherwise, all the Star Trek films. All of them. Having been made by different rights holders to the TV series, would be non-canon, because they're now owned by someone other than CBS.

Seriously. It's fine if you don't particularly enjoy Discovery. It's equally fine if you utterly loathe it. But please, stop with the Neckbeard Acrobatics to claim it's non-canon, just because you don't like it. It just makes us all look silly.

Here's a handy guide to the corporate history of Trek for ease of reference.


No, what's making you look silly is attacking people for "Neckbeard Acrobatics" when someone discusses the canon of a show you like.

But nice projection, I haven't actually seen STD so I dont have an opinion about it either way. My interest was if the rights issue had effects on modern ST, but as that is a tangent we dont have to go further into that.


Sorry I didn't make myself clear. What I meant was, we ARE done with this tangent. If you want to carry on discussing the canon of ST and its wider implications do so in a different thread.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/14 13:33:28


On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
 
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