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He still could be, we don't know if she was telling the truth, it could have been a ruse to discredit Leeland for her to gain power, that would be an interesting twist.

 Formosa wrote:
He still could be, we don't know if she was telling the truth, it could have been a ruse to discredit Leeland for her to gain power, that would be an interesting twist.

Good point - we know Georgio is playing games and now apparently in charge of that ship (and maybe the squadron of ships that was flying about)

That could actually be a good explanation as to why on Earth the Federation would ever allow something like Section 31 to exist in the first place: they didn't. It fell victim to "those who fight monsters syndrome".

It's possible Georgiou is looking to snaffle the best of the best tech in our reality, with a view to nipping back to the Mirror Universe, and picking up where she left off.

Though her sticking around and taking over Section 31 would explain why we don't talk about that sort of thing occurs later in the timeline.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It's possible Georgiou is looking to snaffle the best of the best tech in our reality, with a view to nipping back to the Mirror Universe, and picking up where she left off.

Though her sticking around and taking over Section 31 would explain why we don't talk about that sort of thing occurs later in the timeline.

Why would she need to go home to take over the galaxy......

That could actually be a good explanation as to why on Earth the Federation would ever allow something like Section 31 to exist in the first place: ".

Same reason the Culture has Special Circumstances

Power structure. Thirst for revenge. The sheer challenge of it.

I feel we may need to collectively refresh on Section 31, and where their name comes from.

Via Memory Alpha (so canonical only, apologies if it’s further investigated in spin off media)

The organization's title came from the original Starfleet Charter, Article 14, Section 31, which allowed for extraordinary measures to be taken in times of extreme threat

Now, that in itself is not describing an inherently shady organisation. Indeed, one could argue its little different than reserving the right to declare martial law should the need arise.

It’s something most governments have the option to do.

Now, exactly where they draw the line? That’s where the moral ambiguity comes in. Consider Georgiou’s plan from the end of Season 1. Blow up Q’on’os entirely. Cut off the head. It’s horrific, but would most certainly work. The arguments lies in deciding when such an action is warranted.

Against the Klingons and Romulans? Well, there will always be another way. The Borg? Federation was all up for genocide at the time, and Janeway certainly had some ideas in that respect. (Future Janeway at any rate). The plague they used Odo as a vector to wipe out the Changelings?

In short, you can go from SAS style Black Ops, in the name of preserving peace and shortening conflicts, to something far, far more sinister relatively easily. Just need to convince yourself the threat is sufficient to justify the means.

to quote Starship Troopers: "You don't like it, well too bad. WE're in it for the species, people."

Reality would lead to a Kaylonesque view of the galaxy very quickly.

Particularly if you’re in a position to get only one of many hands dirty.

How many times have we seen ‘for the greater good, ends justify the means’ spin out of control? Where a once real threat is extinguished, and others subsequently invented or exaggerated to push an agenda?

Now this is specifically rhetorical here, as I’m sailing dangerously close to Political discussion.

It’s seemingly part and parcel of what we call civilisation!

Its kind of weird when you think about it. Once the Feds hit a near post scarcity economy in TNG, whats the reason exactly for conflict? At least in TOS there are multiple mentions of regions of space with poor resources (Klingons) and galactic problems of food (ST II). But once you're hitting the time of The Picard, all thats kind of bye bye...

Guess it shows The Federation working as intended, albeit by it by baby steps.

They turned a post nuclear war Earth into a paradise (as noted in DS9), and have the technology to do much the same to other planets.

Again, DS9 has that wonderful Root Beer analogy between Quark and Garak that helps set things nicely.

So over time, it’s likely Section 31, possibly other ‘dirty secrets’ operate ever more from the shadows. Necessary in the early days, when The Federation was an upstart. By the end of DS9, they’re one of the dominant forces in the Alpha Quadrant - But also known for sticking to treaties, and pursuing dissident factions among their own number.

With a pretty solid Union with the Klingons, and arguably a new found respect from the Romulans? It’s possible they’ll be able to ramp up their good work, with less worry about intervention being taken for meddling (for instance, Bajor was a bit ‘kid gloves’ originally. Helping, but not aiding.

Back to TOS and Disco? Still establishing itself, and showing they were genuinely more interested in exploration and cooperation that beating you up.

 Frazzled wrote:
Its kind of weird when you think about it. Once the Feds hit a near post scarcity economy in TNG, whats the reason exactly for conflict? At least in TOS there are multiple mentions of regions of space with poor resources (Klingons) and galactic problems of food (ST II). But once you're hitting the time of The Picard, all thats kind of bye bye...

Well apart from needing it for an interesting narrative they still have stuff they can't replicate iirc? Plus some races that culturally clash and feel that the Federation is trying to convert them - again its similar to the Culture and they are much more advanced than the Federation.

Plus usually some ancient races like popping in and messing about with stuff -causing wars, stiring up the nats nest - see Q, Vorlons and Shadows etc.

Now where they will go with it in the show is interesting - they did touch on the fact that Burnham fitted in well with the Mirror Universe and even Tilly was beginning to grow there - and then she regressed to a giggling school girl / officers pet

 Mr Morden wrote:


Well apart from needing it for an interesting narrative they still have stuff they can't replicate iirc?

Lots of stuff can't be replicated. Tholian silk, latinum, dilithium, and probably other stuff I'm not remembering. You need industrial replicators (huge machines) to produce a lot of materials, and some are too complex/energy intensive to replicate at all.

Wasn’t it explained at one time that the replicators aren’t actually creating from nothing, but rather assembling from vats of raw material located elsewhere on the ship? I know they’ve also talked at times about returning the dishes and such to the replicators when finished.

If memory serves, they can make stuff out of atmospheric bits and bobs?

Dunno. Sounds like a memory alpha job!

Ok so new episode dropped and it was good! I know, your all shocked that i would say that but it was actually good, its tried to tie in STD with TOS and it did a fairly good job of it, it also showed us where the timelines "SEEMED" sorry to emphasise but some people dont understand something appearing to be the case and actually being the case, but i digress, it seems to show where the timelines of this series and TOS diverged.


Major plot spoiler

So, Spock was going mad because his feeble logical vulcan mind insisted on the "linear time" concept being the standard instead of the big ball of wibbly wobbly timey-wimey-quantum stuff?

Yup, it's star trek alright ...

AduroT wrote:Wasn’t it explained at one time that the replicators aren’t actually creating from nothing, but rather assembling from vats of raw material located elsewhere on the ship? I know they’ve also talked at times about returning the dishes and such to the replicators when finished.

Can't remember honestly.

Wouldn't surprise me though.A lot of the writers for later TNG seasons, DS9, and Voyager went on record as hating the idea of the replicator because of how it bottlenecked them when making stories, so they tried as hard as they could to downplay them (why you never seem to see anyone use them for anything but food in most later Trek series').

 Formosa wrote:
Ok so new episode dropped and it was good! I know, your all shocked that i would say that but it was actually good, its tried to tie in STD with TOS and it did a fairly good job of it, it also showed us where the timelines "SEEMED" sorry to emphasise but some people dont understand something appearing to be the case and actually being the case, but i digress, it seems to show where the timelines of this series and TOS diverged.


Major plot spoiler

Spoiler:

essentially Burnham died in TOS timeline but it looks like the red angel led spock to having her saved, this "COULD" explain why spock has no brother but now has a sister and explain why she never turned up anywhere in any way ever before, I still think the red angel is burnham but I kinda dont mind now if thats the case IF it combines STD with canon trek, which would make STD canon

Agreed - this was a much better episode - the first few moments was a wtf - ohh thats quite cool.

Can't really fault anything - although it was amusing when

Especially good for me was the Pike and Vina story elements, really nicely played by both of them.

and I thought the PTSD of the Dr is interesting (although I did wonder if he might be the mirror version - I don't think we ever heard about his counterpart?

Spock was actualy good and as always Georgio was a scene stealer - amuses me that people who know what she is and where she is from still take her at face value.

Interesting to briefly see the

Renewed my hope in the show quite a bit

So glad most of the Spock nonsense is now resolved. Don’t mind him being in the show, but the Search For Spock V1.1.0 just didn’t quite land for me.

Maybe it’ll play better binge watched?

Nice to see a bit more of the Bridge crew too. Though they really need to crack on with giving them time in the limelight.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So glad most of the Spock nonsense is now resolved. Don’t mind him being in the show, but the Search For Spock V1.1.0 just didn’t quite land for me.

Maybe it’ll play better binge watched?

Nice to see a bit more of the Bridge crew too. Though they really need to crack on with giving them time in the limelight.

Nah they just got their mandatory single line - Detmer might have got two... but very short ones.

They don't seem that interested in them, the cybered up woman might get more now she is feeding info to the Squid people .... or not.

I notice that unlike the Kilingon home world that Earth and the other Fed planets maintain their complete lack of defences to make sneak attacks that much more effective (I think this happens in every incarantion of the tv shows)

But def lookiing forward to the next one whereas before was wondering if this was going the same way as Walkng Dead which I gave up on.

Earth typically does have a bunch of defences in TNG and DS9 era.

They just have the tendency to get completely and totally wrecked by the attackers before the heroes show up, so we never see them.

Walking Dead is much improved in the current season.

Worth checking out at any rate, as your opinion may differ.

So they finally did some great character development on Miriam this week. Glad they’re fleshing our the rest of the crew a bit...

I do hate when shows try to make you care about someone only as they’re killing them off. You have to get me invested Before that. The only thing her death makes me feel is anger at the writers for wasting her potential.

 AduroT wrote:
I do hate when shows try to make you care about someone only as they’re killing them off. You have to get me invested Before that. The only thing her death makes me feel is anger at the writers for wasting her potential.

~Just finished the episode and was about to post that exact same thing, they developed a character then immediately killed her off, and i didnt give a crap about it, because i didnt know who she was, her motivations or anything, it was like killing off the red shirts in TOS, no one cares, utter utter waste of potential.

Do you think whatever messes up Captain Pike will happen this season? We see now that this show takes place many years after the pilot episode of TOS. According to Memory Alpha the reason PIke is crippled is a "training accident" but doesn't that sound like a cover up story for something that happened about a top secret, experimental, teleporting ship entangled with Section 31?

Dr Culber's PTSD is sorta understandable.

He has memories of his relationship with Stamets, but the associated emotional ties just aren't there alongside them because THIS Culber never made those emotional connections. They're secondhand memories and he's fresh out of the tank, still dripping with slime, so to speak.

Well, there went my theory about who the Red Angel is...

Another decent episode. Really hope the Red Angel ends up a payoff, and not a cop out.

Spock’s whole why did it choose me thing is kind of dumb though. I mean just look at it objectively, the first thing the angel did was tell him how to save his sister. His sister who went on to “cause” the Klingon war amongst all the other stuff that’s gone down. That alone is one hell of a butterfly.