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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

To be fair one big failing of Voyager was the sense of limited supplies. About the only part that they really pushed that on was the need for cooking and even then they could have gone a lot further - in the end it feels like they more just cook fresh produce to give Neelix a job.

Otherwise Voyager gets into regular scraps and yet is all cleaned up and running smooth by the next episode. We never really get a sense of hodge-podge repairs or limited resources or of them having to heavily curtail activities to sustain themselves episode to episode. We get those things during an episode but they are often resolved by the end.

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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Voyager was only stranded and needed to manage its resources two or three times a season when it was needed for the plot to work. At all other times the writer's room ignored the issue.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Yeah I get the feeling that they kind of didn't want to rebuild or evolve sets and the ship. It might also have been a filming issue since we always assume things are filmed "in order" but many times they can be filmed out of order and then what we finally get is very different.

It's one reason many shows often don't do big sweeping changes except in the first and last episodes (and sometimes a mid-season few) because those are set in stone positions and don't change. So they can adapt the set or change things up or even blow something up because it won't be shown out of order (unless your executive hates you and you get Fireflied)

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Nihilistic Necron Lord






They just won’t let Data rest in peace, will they?

 
   
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 AduroT wrote:
They just won’t let Data rest in peace, will they?


Nor Picard it seems. We'll have Synthetic Picard, Corpse Picard, maybe a changeling Picard?, Picard Jr, and *gasp* SHINZON?!


Also Voyager sucks. There I said it.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Ahtman wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
They just won’t let Data rest in peace, will they?


Nor Picard it seems. We'll have Synthetic Picard, Corpse Picard, maybe a changeling Picard?, Picard Jr, and *gasp* SHINZON?!


Also Voyager sucks. There I said it.


On the last bit?

NoW tHaT’s A bEaUtY.

Guess he can’t spell “god awful abomination captained by the worst captain that ever captained”.

Not you, Kate Mulgrew. You did your best. Janeway being awful is not your fault.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Hm. Yeah, I'm kinda zoning out now. That was just an episode of "HEY REMEMBER ALL THE OTHER STAR TREKS?????" and I find nostalgia bait like that immensely insufferable.
There were bits that I did like but damn that was a proper nostalgia baseball bat to the skull.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/24 21:07:17


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK


Spoiler:

I think the only part that felt odd is Voyager being there. I know its a good many years, but that's a starship and at the end of its season it was teched out with future tech. If anything it should have been in Daystrum not in the museum if it was stored and honestly it should still have been within service and active use.

Defiant makes sense, that was bashed and smashed around and likely was retired. Wasn't the last time we saw it in First Contact where it was torn apart during the opening battle.

The other odd thing is who keeps their display ships 100% active with a cloaking device. And of all the ships on display why the Bird of Prey and not the Defiant's.
If anything the Bird of Prey's should have been returned to the Klingons considering how super secret the devices are kept in the general run of things (seriously considering how often Starfleet encounters, interacts with and fights against them you'd think they'd have developed their own by now).

Data reappearing as he did felt a little forced, but its in keeping with ST styles and honestly it does work. The idea of Section 31 though is strange, Warf keeps dropping them like we'd drop the FBI or such when in the DS9 series Section 31 was not only ultra secret, but also generally proven to not even really exist in the way that many thought. The idea of them running Starfleet's main research station is curious when in the past they were more headspace based and such.

I wonder if its one of those things where the original lore says X and then its slowly twisted and changed until its hit Y without the writers realising. Or with a lot of subtle changes that makes the viewer go "wait wasn't that X not Y" without connecting the dots.

Still an enjoyable episode; slower in some ways than the others, but it felt like a stage setter for the next arc. We've almost got most of the old crew together. Very interesting that we've not got a single DS9 character thus far and my googling suggests we aren't getting O'Brian making an appearance. Still I think with all the Changling elements we should get someone from DS9 (who isn't Worf)


Also I'm left wondering why they stole Picard's body. Did the Changlings watch season 2 and think that they can clone him and then have him give a speech and turn the Federation against itself or something in epic war?


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I was surprised at the end when the interrogator shot the other two guards then started to change and it Wasn’t Odo. You kind of have to expect him to make an appearance, right?

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 AduroT wrote:
I was surprised at the end when the interrogator shot the other two guards then started to change and it Wasn’t Odo. You kind of have to expect him to make an appearance, right?


I'm so glad I wasn't the only person who thought that!
Then again of all the characters he's one we might not see as René Auberjonois passed on in 1999.
Also she was changing with the new effect and I wonder if Changlings are now of two breeds, one who have the more liquid state who don't create the correct internal organs and this new more fleshy kind that do create proper internal organs.

Spoiler:
Also was I the only person who also thought that what was stolen was a Changling, not Picard. I'd thought it could be Odo in a strange story twist or that it was the female Changling who was imprisoned at the end of the Dominion War)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/25 10:35:14


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Ah, didn’t know Odo’s actor had died. I’m bummed we don’t get to hear their contrived reason why another character who doesn’t age looks older, like we’ve had with Guinan, Q, and now Data.

 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Small correction that René Auberjonois passed away in 2019 nor 1999.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Ack you're right, I just grabbed the date off the google page and that was the end date for him acting in DS9 not him passing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AduroT wrote:
Ah, didn’t know Odo’s actor had died. I’m bummed we don’t get to hear their contrived reason why another character who doesn’t age looks older, like we’ve had with Guinan, Q, and now Data.


Considering his relationship with Kira during DS9 I could see that if he'd returned from the Great Link and perhaps resumed their relationship, he might well have used what he'd learned from other Changlings to "age" like her so that he'd join her in old age, even if he'd long out-live her and could just age down visually if he wanted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/25 12:41:10


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I also thought it was going to be Odo until I remembered René Auberjonois had passed away then I was just sad.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Yu Jing Martial Arts Ninja




North Wales

 Ahtman wrote:
I also thought it was going to be Odo until I remembered René Auberjonois had passed away then I was just sad.


It seems like there are so many of us that nearly fell for that - It must have been intentional, so well played!

I thought for a minute that they were going to Kirk that BoP, which would have been beautiful until I realised that it would have involved ditching the super awesome captain.

Speaking of Kirk...
   
Made in pl
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Chillreaper wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
I also thought it was going to be Odo until I remembered René Auberjonois had passed away then I was just sad.


It seems like there are so many of us that nearly fell for that - It must have been intentional, so well played!

Yeah, I was another ''victim''. So sad that we cannot see Rene playing his part again :(
   
Made in ca
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Ok, I'm caught up now and ya, I can't decide if I like this season or not. It is fun to see the gang back together but the problem that this show always had has no spread to everyone now and that is mainly why has everyone's life sucked the past ~20 years? Like, since when is life so hard in the federation? Once again, if you are watching this show you probably liked most of these people and its just sad to see that all their loves mostly sucked this whole time. The one exception is probably Geordie. He managed to not be dragged though the hell of dark trek. Seems like things worked out for him at least...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:

Spoiler:


Data reappearing as he did felt a little forced, but its in keeping with ST styles and honestly it does work. The idea of Section 31 though is strange, Warf keeps dropping them like we'd drop the FBI or such when in the DS9 series Section 31 was not only ultra secret, but also generally proven to not even really exist in the way that many thought. The idea of them running Starfleet's main research station is curious when in the past they were more headspace based and such.

I wonder if its one of those things where the original lore says X and then its slowly twisted and changed until its hit Y without the writers realising. Or with a lot of subtle changes that makes the viewer go "wait wasn't that X not Y" without connecting the dots.



Discovery ruined Section 31 to a cartoonish level. What DS9 establishes is that yeah, Section 31 kind of isn't even a real organization. It a cabal of people taking a section (the 31st one) of Star Fleet charter out of context to due extrajudicial things they want to do. It's a conspiracy of people who think the ends justify the means. I like that take, it's kind of smart, quite frankly.

Of course, it was too smart for Discovery and suddenly section 31 is an actual branch of Star Fleet that's completely out in the open with their own uniforms and shockingly big fleet. Also, everyone is automatically subservient to them. They are at the apex of The Federation somehow. Like wow, when did that happen? Apparently this Utopia is run by a secret police/CIA/KGB type group and everyone knows about it? So dumb.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/27 22:39:12


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Picard's ever present problem is that it's written like the TNG movies, but only 1 of those movies was actually good and the other two were either bad or difficult to like.

Likewise, Picard has its good and well-written points, but then there's the bad and the difficult to like and the end result is basically a show like Nemesis in quality. You don't want to hate it, sometimes it's actually quite good, and then sometimes you just want to punch everyone involved because really?

For my own part, I was on board to see the Enterprise-F in action.

Those damn writers! They bring the ship in and for what? A decommissioning ceremony? Why the hell didn't they decommission the E and then have the F? Or just make it a damn commissioning ceremony!

As it is it's like they just cheated me and kicked me in the balls while they were at it!

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
 Overread wrote:

Spoiler:


Data reappearing as he did felt a little forced, but its in keeping with ST styles and honestly it does work. The idea of Section 31 though is strange, Warf keeps dropping them like we'd drop the FBI or such when in the DS9 series Section 31 was not only ultra secret, but also generally proven to not even really exist in the way that many thought. The idea of them running Starfleet's main research station is curious when in the past they were more headspace based and such.

I wonder if its one of those things where the original lore says X and then its slowly twisted and changed until its hit Y without the writers realising. Or with a lot of subtle changes that makes the viewer go "wait wasn't that X not Y" without connecting the dots.



Discovery ruined Section 31 to a cartoonish level. What DS9 establishes is that yeah, Section 31 kind of isn't even a real organization. It a cabal of people taking a section (the 31st one) of Star Fleet charter out of context to due extrajudicial things they want to do. It's a conspiracy of people who think the ends justify the means. I like that take, it's kind of smart, quite frankly.

Of course, it was too smart for Discovery and suddenly section 31 is an actual branch of Star Fleet that's completely out in the open with their own uniforms and shockingly big fleet. Also, everyone is automatically subservient to them. They are at the apex of The Federation somehow. Like wow, when did that happen? Apparently this Utopia is run by a secret police/CIA/KGB type group and everyone knows about it? So dumb.


I feel like the issue with S31 is that they were too damn interesting. In DS9 they were this nefarious and unclear group filled with mystique and uncertainty about their methods and goals and what they meant for the franchise. They were so cool as an idea, but what made them cool in part was how incredibly ill-defined they were. No one knew what S31 was, if it was real or a conspiracy, how vast or big they were. They were just a giant ??? and it made them interesting.

Too interesting.

Fanfiction foreshadowed the groanworthy places S31 would go honestly, and Discovery/Picard, and even Enterprise before them, went the same way; S31 loses everything that makes it interesting if they're the focus of any amount of attention beyond the vague. They just become some bland lame secret nazi mafia doing super shady and obviously evil gak.

They were so interesting they just started showing up everywhere. Like quantum superposition, they collapsed into a steaming pile of groan the moment we looked at them for too long but it was that state of superposition, of not knowing what they really were or what they were really about, that made them interesting in the first place. They're not interesting anymore.

They mostly make me shake my head and say 'god damnit not these dumbshits again.'

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/03/27 23:05:04


   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






It's definitely a bit too dark. Like sure Worf, Picardy, and Beverly already had tragedy in their past but a lot of the rest didn't need to happen.
I did like the exploration of Picard's broken childhood in S2 though.
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






Spoiler:
 Overread wrote:
I think the only part that felt odd is Voyager being there. I know its a good many years, but that's a starship and at the end of its season it was teched out with future tech. If anything it should have been in Daystrum not in the museum if it was stored and honestly it should still have been within service and active use.


If we're going by Beta Canon the Intrepid class didn't really measure up to the design pressures Starfleet had post Dominion War and its main claim to fame was introducing a number of highly experimental technologies, some which were easily integrated throughout the fleet and others (like the variable geometry) which Starfleet abandoned pursuing different technological solutions.

But beyond that, and going back to both Alpha and Beta Canons, the Voyager absolutely deserves its place there. After they managed to advise Starfleet of their survival (and later established brief but regular contact through the array) they became overnight celebrities in the Alpha Quadrant. They almost certainly gutted the borg and future tech first, but there was absolutely no way they weren't going to put that thing in a museum after it hoofed its way across the galaxy and de-fanged the Borg in the process.


(By the way, I just finished the Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway, read by Kate Mulgrew. Surprisingly solid story and a great performance throughout - and it provided the coda I always felt Voyager sorely needed.)

If any ship didn't belong there...
Spoiler:
I'd say it was the Defiant. That ship was lost at Chin'toka, and its replacement (the one presumably here in the museum) is the Sao Paolo, which lasted all of six episodes before DS9 ran out, and only really has the battle of Cardassia Prime under its belt.

   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






I’d have put Harry Kim in Voyager’s place. As an example someone’s career can be mothballed as well as ships.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I never quite get all the complaints about Harry never getting promoted because what's the point of promoting him?

They were in the middle of nowhere, there weren't really any roles or duties for him to be promoted into. Chances are a promotion for him would have come with a ship transfer or someone above moving out; but no one really moved out nor died off in the series in a big way (in fact outside of red-shirts I think we only lost Kes as a main character).

So you could have promoted him but it would have been pips and no actual difference.



The other thing, and even Picard has touched on this but never really gone into detail; is in a society with no money (except when trading at Quarks) and with replicators that can make almost anything you desire and with what is likely a seriously good welfare system - what is the concept of a job in the Federation.

It's really hard to work out how land, money, trade, wealth, society, jobs, etc.... function. What perks do you get with promotion? In the world we live in a huge part is not just different duties and respect, but also a higher grade of pay (typically). Federation lacks that last part, so does Harry need to be promoted if he's not actually going to get anything to go with it?

His role on the ship can't really change; he won't get better rooms, better replicators, better pay (even if its backpay when they get home)

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Recognition for the skills and effort put into the work someone does. Sure, Janeway and Chakotay both know Harry is good at his job but on a technical level he's still the lowest commissioned officer rank. He might be an Alpha Shift command crew Ensign but that doesn't give him rank over the other Ensigns and after 6 years in the Delta Quadrant, at the very least Harry should have been promoted to Lieutenant. He was already doing a lot of the work anyway and if ranks only really came out in times of crisis, nobody is going to listen to an Ensign.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Gert wrote:
Recognition for the skills and effort put into the work someone does. Sure, Janeway and Chakotay both know Harry is good at his job but on a technical level he's still the lowest commissioned officer rank. He might be an Alpha Shift command crew Ensign but that doesn't give him rank over the other Ensigns and after 6 years in the Delta Quadrant, at the very least Harry should have been promoted to Lieutenant. He was already doing a lot of the work anyway and if ranks only really came out in times of crisis, nobody is going to listen to an Ensign.


This.

It’s also good for morale. I’ve had jobs where no matter how hard you worked, you never got recognition. Payrise entirely aside, just to have your efforts acknowledged is pleasing. When you don’t, it’s demoralising and you either shift jobs, or stop bothering.

   
Made in ca
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






 LordofHats wrote:
Picard's ever present problem is that it's written like the TNG movies, but only 1 of those movies was actually good and the other two were either bad or difficult to like.

Likewise, Picard has its good and well-written points, but then there's the bad and the difficult to like and the end result is basically a show like Nemesis in quality. You don't want to hate it, sometimes it's actually quite good, and then sometimes you just want to punch everyone involved because really?

For my own part, I was on board to see the Enterprise-F in action.

Those damn writers! They bring the ship in and for what? A decommissioning ceremony? Why the hell didn't they decommission the E and then have the F? Or just make it a damn commissioning ceremony!

As it is it's like they just cheated me and kicked me in the balls while they were at it!

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
 Overread wrote:

Spoiler:


Data reappearing as he did felt a little forced, but its in keeping with ST styles and honestly it does work. The idea of Section 31 though is strange, Warf keeps dropping them like we'd drop the FBI or such when in the DS9 series Section 31 was not only ultra secret, but also generally proven to not even really exist in the way that many thought. The idea of them running Starfleet's main research station is curious when in the past they were more headspace based and such.

I wonder if its one of those things where the original lore says X and then its slowly twisted and changed until its hit Y without the writers realising. Or with a lot of subtle changes that makes the viewer go "wait wasn't that X not Y" without connecting the dots.



Discovery ruined Section 31 to a cartoonish level. What DS9 establishes is that yeah, Section 31 kind of isn't even a real organization. It a cabal of people taking a section (the 31st one) of Star Fleet charter out of context to due extrajudicial things they want to do. It's a conspiracy of people who think the ends justify the means. I like that take, it's kind of smart, quite frankly.

Of course, it was too smart for Discovery and suddenly section 31 is an actual branch of Star Fleet that's completely out in the open with their own uniforms and shockingly big fleet. Also, everyone is automatically subservient to them. They are at the apex of The Federation somehow. Like wow, when did that happen? Apparently this Utopia is run by a secret police/CIA/KGB type group and everyone knows about it? So dumb.


I feel like the issue with S31 is that they were too damn interesting. In DS9 they were this nefarious and unclear group filled with mystique and uncertainty about their methods and goals and what they meant for the franchise. They were so cool as an idea, but what made them cool in part was how incredibly ill-defined they were. No one knew what S31 was, if it was real or a conspiracy, how vast or big they were. They were just a giant ??? and it made them interesting.

Too interesting.

Fanfiction foreshadowed the groanworthy places S31 would go honestly, and Discovery/Picard, and even Enterprise before them, went the same way; S31 loses everything that makes it interesting if they're the focus of any amount of attention beyond the vague. They just become some bland lame secret nazi mafia doing super shady and obviously evil gak.

They were so interesting they just started showing up everywhere. Like quantum superposition, they collapsed into a steaming pile of groan the moment we looked at them for too long but it was that state of superposition, of not knowing what they really were or what they were really about, that made them interesting in the first place. They're not interesting anymore.

They mostly make me shake my head and say 'god damnit not these dumbshits again.'


Fair enough, but the shadowy, dark conspiracy version of S31 is still better than them having their own fleet and army and chain of command in the starfleet org chart.

Anyways, Enterprise F? Where was that?! Did I miss something? I might be an episode behind. I thought they came out on Thursdays.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 Overread wrote:

The other odd thing is who keeps their display ships 100% active with a cloaking device. And of all the ships on display why the Bird of Prey and not the Defiant's.


They have the tech, but it is a deliberate treaty choice. Part of the alliance/peace deal with the klingons and I think Romulans? The Klingons realised they were inferior, and only cloaks give them an edge. So to reassure them and the Roms the Feds don't have cloaks. The DS9 ship got it through a special deal. Thats why the actions of Picard could actually shatter multiple intergalactic deals...
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The Khitomer Accords established that the Federation would never develop cloaking technology to stop the arms race with the Klingons. The Romulans benefited from this anyway and I think later signed on to later additions such as the ban on Isolitic weapons.
The deal where the Defiant got a cloaking device was during the build up to the Dominion War. In return for all the data the Federation had on the Dominion, the Romulans loaned a single device to be used on the Defiant, with the condition it not be used in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






If that treaty still stands, as it was Federation/Romulan.

Given Romulus no longer does an exist, and in S1 we saw Romulans in Starfleet? I’d say it almost certainly doesn’t.

I however am mildly disappointed they didn’t yoink the Cloaking Device ala Quark, and Nick off in The Defiant.

I mean, if you’re likely gonna get into a fight regardless, you could pick far worse than the Defiant Class.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






It was only the NX-Defiant that had the cloaking device and that was destroyed during the Dominion War by the Breen.
   
Made in ca
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Well I guess Romulus doesn't exist anymore but does the Romulan Star Empire still exist as a political body? They must have had multiple planets. We just saw the Obsidian Order in Season 1 right?

 
   
 
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