Currently most broken units

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**w1zard**

If guardsmen go up to 5 points, then rangers, fire warriors, and kabalites need to go up as well. If that happens, then I'm fine with guardsmen going up to 5 ppm.

**Spoletta**

Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
So I was running some numbers:
If equal points of Spears and Guardsmen shoot eachother, Guardsmen win on points.

If equal points of Spears charge equal points of Guardsmen, both sides lose about the same number of points.

If equal points of Guardsmen charge equal points of Spears, Guardsmen win on points.

Even when Spears fight first on turns they didn't charge, Guardsmen still win on points.

Now, I still think Spears are the better unit, but the math didn't work out how I expected.

Equal points of gaurdsmen for a 9 man SS is 72 gaurdsmen. OFC they are going to lose that on paper. The actual value of this unit compared to elite infantry is like 7 points. Obviously they can't go up in price that much. They need to cost 5 points though - no question. Plus a lot of other elite infantry need to come down in price too. Spears don't need an increase if everything else gets fixed. I'm fine with them losing on paper to 70 cheap bodies. They can make their points back in 1 turn fighting elites.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordana wrote:
And that's also why we see Knights rampage around so much. Everyone was tooling for volume of fire to get through hordes and invul saves.

Well at least in the case with DE. Their best gun for T8 is the Dessie - and it's still really good anti infantry too. There is nothing in this game that dessie doesn't love to shot - unless it's calgar or a wave serpent or something t10 (that is almost non existent.)

Dessie do not particularly like T6+ 4++ targets. It takes 2 full turns of fire from 3 dessie ravagers to maybe down a single tyrant, 3 if it is a leviathan warlord.

**Tyel**

Spoletta wrote:
Dessie do not particularly like T6+ 4++ targets. It takes 2 full turns of fire from 3 dessie ravagers to maybe down a single tyrant, 3 if it is a leviathan warlord.

Isn't this around a 25% return? Not optimal perhaps - but hardly bad.

Also on the whole hypothetical "if 50% of people in a tournament played guard, but only 1/3 in the top 10 were Guard it would show the codex was fine".

People going to a major tournament probably want to win. Or at least not lose 5 games in a row. We often talk about how 40k is expensive - but frankly, going to a major tournament isn't free. If you are in the tournament scene (travel, hotels etc) you have the money to buy a decent army.

So if 50% people turned up with Guard that would indicate people reckoned they were the best codex.

**KurtAngle2**

Martel732 wrote:
6 pts is totally fair for a bs 3 model with a gun that ignores T!

The price drop kabalites have received with the transition to 8TH is idiot at best...from 8 pts to 7 pts during the Index era and now 6 points...having the same price as an Ork Boy (which is the mainstay unit for a HORDE army) is definitely a shame for all balancing purposes

Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:
If guardsmen go up to 5 points, then rangers, fire warriors, and kabalites need to go up as well. If that happens, then I'm fine with guardsmen going up to 5 ppm.

They all need a +1 pt increase too, no question there

**Hatachi**

Honestly I think balancing wise we all have a bad habit of wanting bad units lowered rather than good units raised in price. That's how you end up in weird ppm flattening positions and lose granularity as values start gravitating too close together.

**A.T.**

Bharring wrote:
Now, I still think Spears are the better unit, but the math didn't work out how I expected.

Expectations from experience of the game perhaps. You are never going to get a unit of spears charged / charging 70 guardsmen all at once, similarly with shooting the guardsmen will only every be able to bring a proportion of models to bear.

While not specifically a guard thing, if you have a few powerful units that are the exact equal of many weak units then the many weak units have the benefit of battlefield control but the few strong units will beat them over time, all other things equal.

**w1zard**

Hatachi wrote:
Honestly I think balancing wise we all have a bad habit of wanting bad units lowered rather than good units raised in price. That's how you end up in weird ppm flattening positions and lose granularity as values start gravitating too close together.

That is a very good observation, and I agree wholeheartedly.

**Colonel Cross**

Why are people still math hammering guardsmen against elite units and failing to take morale into the equation?

**SHUPPET**

Colonel Cross wrote:
Why are people still math hammering guardsmen against elite units and failing to take morale into the equation?

Where was your input when they were mathhammering Guardsmen vs almost identical units, and rewarded by absurdist responses for it?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Colonel Cross wrote:
Why are people still math hammering guardsmen against elite units and failing to take morale into the equation?

Because morale is always avoided in some manner. Just like last edition, morale-based shenanigans are super weak in terms of crunch.

**Colonel Cross**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Colonel Cross wrote:
Why are people still math hammering guardsmen against elite units and failing to take morale into the equation?

Because morale is always avoided in some manner. Just like last edition, morale-based shenanigans are super weak in terms of crunch.

Well when comparing some shining spears against 70 guardsmen, if split fire and multi charging is done properly, there would be morale casualties on the guard side. They've got 1 psychic power nobody uses and 2 different morale Stratagems. I'd say morale ALWAYS being avoided is not very accurate. IG only has leadership 7.

SHUPPET wrote:
Colonel Cross wrote:
Why are people still math hammering guardsmen against elite units and failing to take morale into the equation?

Where was your input when they were mathhammering Guardsmen vs almost identical units, and rewarded by absurdist responses for it?

I am not sure what you're referring to.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

Guard players answer me this
Why should your guardsmen cost the Sam points as my cultists she they have access to better saves among other things

**KurtAngle2**

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Guard players answer me this
Why should your guardsmen cost the Sam points as my cultists she they have access to better saves among other things

Better rules, better options available, better starting equipment, and also 6+

**Spoletta**

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Guard players answer me this
Why should your guardsmen cost the Sam points as my cultists she they have access to better saves among other things

Wrong example man, cultists are definitely on par with guardmen on the table if not better.

**KurtAngle2**

Spoletta wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Guard players answer me this
Why should your guardsmen cost the Sam points as my cultists she they have access to better saves among other things

Wrong example man, cultists are definitely on par with guardmen on the table if not better.

Only when you add Abaddon's reroll & morale immunity, Slaanesh double shooting stratagem and Veterans of the Long War...
No, they are not on part with Guardsmen

**Asmodios**

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Guard players answer me this
Why should your guardsmen cost the Sam points as my cultists she they have access to better saves among other things

Cultists can
>be taken in large groups
>easily infiltrated
>can go alpha legion for -1 to hit
>can use veterans of the long war
>tide of traitors
The units are different both have strengths and weaknesses. But acting like cultists aren’t good is laughable

**Headlss**

So you guys are arguing weather guards our cultists are the most OP unit?

Dull dull dull.

I'm not saying you are wrong but that is disappointing.

**beerbeard**

You don't compare guardsmen to cultists. You compare guardsmen and cultists to Ork boyz.

**Silentz**

beerbeard wrote:
You don't compare guardsmen to cultists. You compare guardsmen and cultists to Ork boyz.

Come on, you at least wait until Orks have a codex before comparing codex to index. Index will obviously lose that.

**An Actual Englishman**

I mean, I'm not saying you're biased but.....

**Jidmah**

Ork boyz are OP and need a nerf.

They should be 8 points minimum.

Trolling, obviously.