The Emperor forcing the Word Bearers to kneel.

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**Onething123456**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

Really? Not from most of the Horus Heresy books I have read. Most of that "war criminal" stuff turned out to be meme-ing after I read the Horus Heresy books.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

And I forgot say that the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex.

**BrianDavion**

Onething123456 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

Really? Not from most of the Horus Heresy books I have read. Most of that "war criminal" stuff turned out to be meme-ing after I read the Horus Heresy books.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

And I forgot say that the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex.

And others who where close to Horus told him he was lying to himself that that the Emperor WOULD have conquered them.

The fact is the Emperor was a ruthless conquerer who moved to conquer the galaxy, he stripped children from their families, to raise to be loyal warriors dedicated to the state and to him. he insisuted purges against entire population groups whose only crime was an accident of genetics or belief.

*reads up* ohh look in addition to the Emperor I've just described ADOLF HITLER!

So yeaaah by any modern measure of the term the Emperor was an evil son of a bitch

**Onething123456**

BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

Really? Not from most of the Horus Heresy books I have read. Most of that "war criminal" stuff turned out to be meme-ing after I read the Horus Heresy books.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

And I forgot say that the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex.

And others who where close to Horus told him he was lying to himself that that the Emperor WOULD have conquered them.

The fact is the Emperor was a ruthless conquerer who moved to conquer the galaxy, he stripped children from their families, to raise to be loyal warriors dedicated to the state and to him. he insisuted purges against entire population groups whose only crime was an accident of genetics or belief.

*reads up* ohh look in addition to the Emperor I've just described ADOLF HITLER!

So yeaaah by any modern measure of the term the Emperor was an evil son of a bitch

No, they did not say Horus was lying to himself. Most of those children, going by the older fluff and other parts of new fluff, were psychotic killers surviving on harsh planets. I have seen pretty much nothing proving it. Its mostly meme-ing

And that depends on what book you are talking about. Because in Scions of the Storm short story from Tales of Heresy, Lorgar and Erebus told the Word Bearers the Emperor ordered them to wipe out a civilization, but it turned out that the Emperor did not order it and that Erebus and Lorgar were Chaos corrupted at the end of the short story. It was already obvious since at the beginning of the story the Word Bearers asked if it was not duty of the Great Crusade to embrace all the distinct strands of humanity, "even its most wayward sons".

Not evil.

EDIT: Conquest is not necessarily pure-evil. Alexander the Great did it, the Romans, did it, and so on. And Hitler was clearly racist.

**HoundsofDemos**

The emperor's by modern standards is a monster. Hitler would be taking notes. Now while one could make a strong and convincing argument that in a setting where knowledge really is dangerous, reading the wrong book can end the world and that's just a taste of what can go wrong, his way or some variant of it is the only way. But to pretend the emperor was a good guy is stretch.

**Onething123456**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The emperor's by modern standards is a monster. Hitler would be taking notes. Now while one could make a strong and convincing argument that in a setting where knowledge really is dangerous, reading the wrong book can end the world and that's just a taste of what can go wrong, his way or some variant of it is the only way. But to pretend the emperor was a good guy is stretch.

Even if that is true (and I have read a lot of Horus Heresy books. Certainly not all, but a fair amount), that applies to most characters in 40k.

**HoundsofDemos**

Onething123456 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
The emperor's by modern standards is a monster. Hitler would be taking notes. Now while one could make a strong and convincing argument that in a setting where knowledge really is dangerous, reading the wrong book can end the world and that's just a taste of what can go wrong, his way or some variant of it is the only way. But to pretend the emperor was a good guy is stretch.

Even if that is true (and I have read a lot of Horus Heresy books. Certainly not all, but a fair amount), that applies to most characters in 40k.

Which is to me the point/appeal of the setting. When written well (another term that is on a scale) I find the 40k universe fascinating from a political science perspective. How bad of a universe would we need where a brutal, fascist theocracy be the most viable form of human government.

**Onething123456**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
The emperor's by modern standards is a monster. Hitler would be taking notes. Now while one could make a strong and convincing argument that in a setting where knowledge really is dangerous, reading the wrong book can end the world and that's just a taste of what can go wrong, his way or some variant of it is the only way. But to pretend the emperor was a good guy is stretch.

Even if that is true (and I have read a lot of Horus Heresy books. Certainly not all, but a fair amount), that applies to most characters in 40k.

Which is to me the point/appeal of the setting. When written well (another term that is on a scale) I find the 40k universe fascinating from a political science perspective. How bad of a universe would we need where a brutal, fascist theocracy be the most viable form of human government.

The Emperor is a conqueror. Conquerors are not inherently pure evil. Alexander the Great conquered, the Romans did it, the Persians did it (and do you realize the Persians under Xerxes were closer to a modern western government than any place in Greece?) and so on. The Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex. I have heard a lot of things about the Emperor that turned out to bed some kind of meme-ing, as I said before.

The Imperium is not fascist, it is feudal.

EDIT: But we are getting off topic. I made this thread to show people here who doubted the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel that he did do it.

**HoundsofDemos**

https://secularhumanism.org/index.php/articles/2710

**Onething123456**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
https://secularhumanism.org/index.php/articles/2710

The Imperium lets planets run things their own way and worship the Emperor their own way as long they pay tithe and worship. Its feudal. It would collapse if it functioned as a real totalitarian fascist dictatorship at the galactic level.

**HoundsofDemos**

Over all the basics are still there, generally. Yes it does vary and some worlds are likely better than others but lets go line by line.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism- Check, Humanity is one nation, your loyal to the Emperor and anyone who is doing something else is an enemy
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights- Inquisition alone addresses that point
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause- Humanity is taught to doubt the outsider
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism- A given, considering the setting

5. (Rampant sexism)- I'll concede this one.

6. A controlled mass media- This may probably depend from world to world. That said information is very closely controlled.
7. Obsession with national security- ....
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together- Despite his best efforts, God Emperor

9. Power of corporations protected- One I'll admit to not being sure about, the economics of the IOM have never been described in detail that i've read other rogue traders in various stories. This seems to support your idea that the IOM is a feudalistic state.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated- Outside of the Navigator House, I don't recall calling a strike being a good idea for anyone else,

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts- Art might eat you, so fair. (Ask Fulgrim)

12. Obsession with crime and punishment- "There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court, a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."

Gonna leave off the last two for now.

**Onething123456**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Over all the basics are still there, generally. Yes it does vary and some worlds are likely better than others but lets go line by line.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism- Check, Humanity is one nation, your loyal to the Emperor and anyone who is doing something else is an enemy
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights- Inquisition alone addresses that point
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause- Humanity is taught to doubt the outsider
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism- A given, considering the setting

5. (Rampant sexism)- I'll concede this one.

6. A controlled mass media- This may probably depend from world to world. That said information is very closely controlled.
7. Obsession with national security- ....
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together- Despite his best efforts, God Emperor

9. Power of corporations protected- One I'll admit to not being sure about, the economics of the IOM have never been described in detail that i've read other rogue traders in various stories. This seems to support your idea that the IOM is a feudalistic state.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated- Outside of the Navigator House, I don't recall calling a strike being a good idea for anyone else,

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts- Art might eat you, so fair. (Ask Fulgrim)

12. Obsession with crime and punishment- "There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court, a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."

Gonna leave off the last two for now.

The Imperium is more of a feudal society than fascist. That is what it is structured on.

**Grumblewartz**

The imperium can't be compared to modern fascism. It isn't nationalistic if the aliens are in fact, actual aliens, who wish to annihilate humanity...Literally the best race in the game - in regards to how it would treat conquered humans - the Tau, would still treat humanity as a second class citizen, one which they would have no problem using as cannon fodder or sterilizing. It's a pretty dark setting...rather grim too.

**Morgasm the Powerfull**

Indeed, a satire of the real world taken to its extreme, everyone hates everyone and wants to kill their each other - a cycle of violence that none of them have the power can escape from.

No one are inherently evil in 40k but all are flaved and ruled by worst parts of their nature, in of so similar ways and unable to cooperate - a reversal of the Star Trekky theme of beings coming together and finding common ground despite their many differences.

Was Emps powerful? Oh yeah - were his choices more in the right than of those whose choises when against his, let alone some definition of "Good"? No, for I think that 40k's beyond such plain concepts as "Good" and "Evil" - it just has people making choices for their own perceived benefit and with which they hope to justify their own narrative, while being unable, or unwilling, to see other peoples narratives as equally valid.

As I see it the real grimness of 40k doesn't come from there being some alien who's just, evil, without any explanation, who wants to hurt you and you just have to kill it - but that neither of you is good or evil and both of you could live together - yet neither is willing to do so and will rather live by the sword and die by the sword. Just like some people still think in the real world, of which, as I said, 40k is a satire of, and a very, very poignant one at that. As Martin Luther King said it: "...violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. "

**Onething123456**

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Indeed, a satire of the real world taken to its extreme, everyone hates everyone and wants to kill their each other - a cycle of violence that none of them have the power can escape from.

No one are inherently evil in 40k but all are flaved and ruled by worst parts of their nature, in of so similar ways and unable to cooperate - a reversal of the Star Trekky theme of beings coming together and finding common ground despite their many differences.

Was Emps powerful? Oh yeah - were his choices more in the right than of those whose choises when against his, let alone some definition of "Good"? No, for I think that 40k's beyond such plain concepts as "Good" and "Evil" - it just has people making choices for their own perceived benefit and with which they hope to justify their own narrative, while being unable, or unwilling, to see other peoples narratives as equally valid.

As I see it the real grimness of 40k doesn't come from there being some alien who's just, evil, without any explanation, who wants to hurt you and you just have to kill it - but that neither of you is good or evil and both of you could live together - yet neither is willing to do so and will rather live by the sword and die by the sword. Just like some people still think in the real world, of which, as I said, 40k is a satire of, and a very, very poignant one at that. As Martin Luther King said it: "...violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. "

40k is about survival, not good or evil. No one, except the Dark Eldr, are truly evil. And the Emperor is not nearly as bad you say he is from the Horus Heresy books I have read (I have read about 20, and that definitely not all of them, but good.)

**Morgasm the Powerfull**

Is it, or is it? Maybe it is about survival, or maybe it is just what Imperium wants to its people to think, so that they keep supporting its existence. All information we are given comes from some biased source - it maybe true, but it may just as well be a legend, or a untrue rumor or propaganda.

Thats how 40k works, the general location of places, people and events may remain fixed but the narrative of the media itself is unreliable. A good example of this are the artwork used as cover art for the Caiphas Cain books, which portray Cain as a heroic muscleman, and yet in the stories(which are excerpts from his memoirs) he is not described as such - which one is more true, his self image or the image others have of him? Neither, since both are 40k media with GWs official stamp, and there for, equally valid or invalid.

Maybe Horus Heresy books portray the events as they really happened, or maybe they're just historical fiction roughly based on those events that some one in th 41st millenium wrote.

**Onething123456**

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Is it, or is it? Maybe it is about survival, or maybe it is just what Imperium wants to its people to think, so that they keep supporting its existence. All information we are given comes from some biased source - it maybe true, but it may just as well be a legend, or a untrue rumor or propaganda.

Thats how 40k works, the general location of places, people and events may remain fixed but the narrative of the media itself is unreliable. A good example of this are the artwork used as cover art for the Caiphas Cain books, which portray Cain as a heroic muscleman, and yet in the stories(which are excerpts from his memoirs) he is not described as such - which one is more true, his self image or the image others have of him? Neither, since both are 40k media with GWs official stamp, and there for, equally valid or invalid.

Maybe Horus Heresy books portray the events as they really happened, or maybe they're just historical fiction roughly based on those events that some one in th 41st millenium wrote.

All information comes from a biased source, but its by no means only the Imperium. Those threats in 40k are described from non-Imperial POV all the time. There is no way the Dark Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, and so on are faked.

And here is what Volstagee on reddit said about Perpetual Oll Persson. He is a well-known and admired member of reddit and even posted here on this site.

Yeah, he's been all around. In every war, there is Ollanius, squatting in the trenches, crawling through the dirt with every other soldier. Occasionally he is in a famous location, but never the star of the show, just a background character. Someone in his position could easily play their cards right and end up being a general, a billionaire, or avoid the war altogether. But not Oll. He is the common soldier, one of countless millions. It's in his name after all: Oll Perrson >> All Persons.

That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.

When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Ollanius would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.

Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Ollanius, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

Really? Not from most of the Horus Heresy books I have read. Most of that "war criminal" stuff turned out to be meme-ing after I read the Horus Heresy books.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

And I forgot say that the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex.

And others who where close to Horus told him he was lying to himself that that the Emperor WOULD have conquered them.

The fact is the Emperor was a ruthless conquerer who moved to conquer the galaxy, he stripped children from their families, to raise to be loyal warriors dedicated to the state and to him. he insisuted purges against entire population groups whose only crime was an accident of genetics or belief.

*reads up* ohh look in addition to the Emperor I've just described ADOLF HITLER!

So yeaaah by any modern measure of the term the Emperor was an evil son of a bitch

I have seen mostly nothing of what you said at all. Although the Horus Heresy books do take place near the end of the Crusade. So are you going to prove what you say or keep on meme-ing?

**Ecclesiarch 616**

The Emperor treated the Word Bearers like crap, public humiliation & the destruction of Monarchia. It is no wonder that Lorgar fell to the seduction of the ruinious powers.

**Onething123456**

I made this thread to show the Emperor did do this.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
The Emperor treated the Word Bearers like crap, public humiliation & the destruction of Monarchia. It is no wonder that Lorgar fell to the seduction of the ruinious powers.

Maybe he should have done what the Emperor said.

That said, Lorgar wasn't really seduced by the Ruinous Powers. He was told that they were gods and jumped on the bandwagon. No matter how the Emperor convinced the Emperor that he himself wasn't a god Lorgar would have fallen because he needed one and he had to force his truth onto everyone to prove himself right.

Only way Lorgar stays loyal is dying early enough or being allowed to worship the Emperor. And that's assuming nobody tells him about the Ruinous Powers in detail and he thinks they're more godlike than the Emperor.

**DarknessEternal**

This was not psychic power. This was genetic encoding.

The Emperor was not as psychically powerful as he liked to pretend. The evidence for this is that he never utilized that kind of psychic power against anything else ever.

He made the primarchs his genetic slaves. Space Marine genetics absorbed that. He could control them with the level of psychic power he actually had, but not other beings he didn't create from the ground up.

How is it the Emperor could beat up Primarchs, but then lose so badly to an Ork that he was moments from death before Horus/Dorn (it's been retconned) stepped in and curb stomped the same ork? Primarchs were genetically programmed to lose to him.

Find any example at all of the Emperor utilizing such amazing psychic potency that isn't from the perspective of a Primarch or Space Marine. It simply does not exist.

They were programmed to be his non-sentient tools and this his how their minds rationalized it.

Space Marines and Primarchs worship the emperor as all powerful. Why would you think their opinion on the man is in any way objective?

**pm713**

There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself. That's pretty impressive. There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

**Onething123456**

DarknessEternal wrote:
This was not psychic power. This was genetic encoding.

The Emperor was not as psychically powerful as he liked to pretend. The evidence for this is that he never utilized that kind of psychic power against anything else ever.

He made the primarchs his genetic slaves. Space Marine genetics absorbed that. He could control them with the level of psychic power he actually had, but not other beings he didn't create from the ground up.

How is it the Emperor could beat up Primarchs, but then lose so badly to an Ork that he was moments from death before Horus/Dorn (it's been retconned) stepped in and curb stomped the same ork? Primarchs were genetically programmed to lose to him.

Find any example at all of the Emperor utilizing such amazing psychic potency that isn't from the perspective of a Primarch or Space Marine. It simply does not exist.

They were programmed to be his non-sentient tools and this his how their minds rationalized it.

Space Marines and Primarchs worship the emperor as all powerful. Why would you think their opinion on the man is in any way objective?

No, the Emperor clearly forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power if you read the underlined parts. I think you are trolling. You know I'm right. Is that the best you can do? I expected something else.

I will show this part to educate you. And what you said does not make sense since half of the Primarchs and Legions turned against him. And he certainly could not control them, nor could he control Lorgar to stop worshiping him.

+Kneel+ it whispered with the power of a hammer to the forehead. There was no resisting. Muscles acted instantly, no matter that many hearts fought not to obey. Argel Tal was one of them. This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

‘You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.’

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

‘You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.’

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn’t discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,’ he said

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself. That's pretty impressive. There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

Is Eternal trolling? Because I underlined the parts where he clearly forced them to kneel.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

‘You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.’

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

‘You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.’

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn’t discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,’ he said.

**DarknessEternal**

Clearly I haven't given enough credit to the Black Library authors as they are now able to convince real people with the fictional propaganda meant for fictional people.

**Onething123456**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Clearly I haven't given enough credit to the Black Library authors as they are no able to convince real people with the fictional propaganda meant for fictional people.

Yeah, Black Library does love to overpower the Emperor, but he still forced the Word Bearers to kneel. And half of the Primarchs and Legions turned against the Emperor, and he did not control them.

‘Now you die,’ said the Emperor, and ripped his blade up.

It was an awful, agonising, mortal wound. Electrical fire vented from hideous metal organs within the wreckage of the greenskin’s body. It was a murderous wound that not even a beast of such unimaginable proportions could take and live.

Yet that was not the worst of it.

Horus felt the build up of colossal psychic energies and shielded his eyes as a furious light built within the Emperor. Power like nothing he had ever seen his father wield, or even suspected he possessed. All consuming, all powerful, it was the power to extinguish life in every sphere of its existence. Physical flesh turned to ash before it and what ancient faiths had once called a soul was burned out of existence, never to cohere again.

Nothing would ever remain of he who suffered such a fate. Their body and soul would pass from the finite energy of the universe, to fade into memory and have all that they were wiped from the canvas of existence. This was as complete a death as it was possible to suffer.

[…]

That power blazed along the Emperor’s sword, filling the greenskin with killing light. It erupted in a bellowing golden explosion, and lightning blazed from the coruscating afterimage of its death, arcing from ork to ork as it sought out all those who were kin to the master of Gorro. Unimaginable energies poured from the Emperor, reaching throughout the entirety of the chamber and burning every last shred of alien flesh to a mist of drifting golden ash.

Horus watched as the power of life and death coursed through the Emperor, saw him swell in stature until he was like unto a god. Wreathed in pellucid amber flames, towering and majestic. His father never claimed to be a god, and refuted such notions with a vengeance. He had even castigated a son for believing what Horus now saw before him with his very own eyes…

**DarknessEternal**

Onething123456 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Clearly I haven't given enough credit to the Black Library authors as they are no able to convince real people with the fictional propaganda meant for fictional people.

Yeah, Black Library does love to overpower the Emperor, but he still forced the Word Bearers to kneel. And half of the Primarchs and Legions turned against the Emperor, and he did not control them.

I never said he did it well. He was too arrogant to ever believe his toys would ever be any kind of meaningful threat to him.

Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

**Onething123456**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Clearly I haven't given enough credit to the Black Library authors as they are no able to convince real people with the fictional propaganda meant for fictional people.

Yeah, Black Library does love to overpower the Emperor, but he still forced the Word Bearers to kneel. And half of the Primarchs and Legions turned against the Emperor, and he did not control them.

I never said he did it well. He was too arrogant to ever believe his toys would ever be any kind of meaningful threat to him.

Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

No. He did not control the Primarchs and their Legions because its not slave coding. They have their own free will. That is shown by the Horus Heresy.

And I corrected you after showing the underlined parts.

**Andykp**

It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

**DarknessEternal**

pm713 wrote:
There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself.

He never did such a thing. There were tens of thousands of people holding that breach, most of them on the wrong side of real-space.

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pm713 wrote:
There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

This was no longer the human Emperor by this point. This was the God-Emperor of Mankind with a trillions strong base of psychically active worshipers. Humans created four of the five Chaos Gods, remember.

Whether or not the Emperor and the God-Emperor are even the same being is a debate for another time though. (hint, the Horus Heresy series implies they are not).

**Onething123456**

DarknessEternal wrote:
pm713 wrote:
There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself.

He never did such a thing. There were tens of thousands of people holding that breach, most of them on the wrong side of real-space.

He did. And he DID force the Word Bearers to kneel with his power, as I have underlined in my quotes.

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pm713 wrote:
There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

This was no longer the human Emperor by this point. This was the God-Emperor of Mankind with a trillions strong base of psychically active worshipers. Humans created four of the five Chaos Gods, remember.

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Andykp wrote:
It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

Nope. He very clearly forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power. I have underlined that numerous times and made it clear. And what about Magnus? The Emperor sent Russ to bring him back, and that was before he joined Chaos. There is no slave coding. The Primarchs have their own free will.

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Andykp wrote:
It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

And as my quote shows, the Emperor sent the Word Bearers flying when he raised his voice. He is just so powerful/Godlike.

**Andykp**

He made them kneel,but was that because they had special weakness encoded into them. Could he have made a whole planet kneel or a demon kneel? I see no evidence of primarchs having free will. They are either super keen to impress daddy or beat him and the traitor ones were all puppets of the dark gods who are infinitely more powerful than the emperor or any primarch.

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Also you can’t trust a thing in those heresey books.