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Really!! That quote again!! It proves nothing. Only that in that version of events from from that unreliable narrator that happened. It doesn’t mean that is the only version of events. By any means. U are missing the point massively.


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I actually feel,sorry for you mate. I don’t know who you are but I won’t argue with anymore. It’s nit fair.

Andykp wrote:
Really!! That quote again!! It proves nothing. Only that in that version of events from from that unreliable narrator that happened. It doesn’t mean that is the only version of events. By any means. U are missing the point massively.

Unreliable narrators? Everything is told from unreliable narrators. I'm well aware of that, and that there is no canon in 40k. We can interpret the setting in our own way.




"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."

Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer GW
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."

Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW (in the comments)
"There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP."

Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."

Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library



http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/


https://www.facebook.com/notes/the-lord-inquisitor/interview-with-aaron-dembski-bowden/493311764034081/

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/heresy-black-legion-chatter-in-the-mail-this-morning/



I talked with ADB. He said there is no slave coding. But there is no canon.

It’s ok mate.

Andykp wrote:
It’s ok mate.

Thats what makes 40k so cool, is it not? Its all told from unreliable Narrators. We can interpret the setting in our own way. The narration for The First Heretic says the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power and sent them flying with his voice, but its possible that did not happen as everything in 40k is told form unreliable narrators.

It is. That’s the point we have all been trying to make.

Andykp wrote:
It is. That’s the point we have all been trying to make.

Then we are cool.


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 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
And he did mind control billions in the Vengeful Spirit book. And in the Vengeful Spirit book, he erased the memories of the Primarchs.

That wasn't psychic might, that was bureaucratic. He ordered everyone to stop mentioning them. He never did squat about altering people's memories.

The First Heretic says the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power and sent them flying with his voice, but everything is told from unreliable narrators in 40k.



And he did not want to erase the memories of those humans who went with him in the Vengeful Spirit. And he mind controlled a planet population in the Vengeful Spirit book.


And mind control is a psyker power. Alpha psykers can mind control plantes, and the Cacodominus



http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Lord_Cherubael/media/bWVkaWFJZDoxMjU2NTU4ODc=/?ref=




5th edition core rulebook said: 401.M34 Black Templar Space Marines end the Catelexis Heresy by executing the Cacodominus, an alien cyborg whose formidable psychic presence allowed it to control the populace of thirteen hundred planetary systems. Alas, the Cacodominus' death scream echoes and amplifies through the Warp, burning out the minds of a billion astropaths and distorting the signal of the Astronomican. Millions upon Millions of ships are lost in the resulting upheaval and entire sub-sectors slide into barbarism without the dictats of the Adeptus Terra to guide them.




And a planetary poplulation mind controlled.





“Kor’sarro had witnessed even warlike orks fall back in the face of such a barrage. He had known tyranid bio-organisms, bred for nothing but war, to falter against such a weight of firepower. He had seen only two types of foe continue forwards against such odds. On the third moon of Woebetide, whilst serving as a Scout many decades before, he had faced an Enslaver plague, and watched as ten thousand mind-slaved meat puppets, each formally a stoic Cadian shock trooper, were compelled by their alien masters to cross a minefield a hundred kilometres deep into the combined fire of the White Scars, Red Hunters and Celestial Lions Chapters. The other occasion had been on Delta Arbuthnot, when a potent, alpha-level psyker had forced an entire planetary population of ratling agri-serfs to rise up against the landowners in an orgy of bloodshed, even though they were armed with no more than shovels and their foes with automatic weapons.” -Hunt for Voldorius, p.157


+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

‘You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.’

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

‘You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.’

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn’t discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,’ he said.


But everything is told from unreliable narrators. So its a matter of interpretation.

I always kinda assumed that the Ork almost killing the Emperor only to be saved by Horus right before the Emperor hands the rest of the crusade to Horus and go work on the webway was him BSing Horus to give him a confidence boost. Whether it worked is debatable. As for the Emperor not going over board with psychic powers to often is in character. He was clearly very wary of the warp and wanted to limit humanities reliance on it as much as possible. For all his arrogance, I think part of him realized that even he could have a problem if he pushed himself to far. That to me has always been the best explanation to why Horus beat him before he finally stopped messing around and deleted him from existence, the Emperor held back as long as he could before he burned away not just Horus but a good chunk of the chaos gods.

Did you read the quote I posted where the Emperor annihilated the Ork with power Horus had not seen in him after that? And other Orks. Hous saw in the Emperor what Lorgar saw after that happened and when he was annihilating the Ork. And I've made it clear the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power. And DarknessEternal knows I'm right. He basically admitted that when he said it was an unreliable In-universe source. And the Emperor erased the memories of the Primarchs about the Moloch gate.


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And I thought the "and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it." was clear along with his voice sending them flying and "no matter that many hearts fought not to obey."

Andykp wrote:
It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

Yeah Emperor planned to get rid of the marines so made sure they would kill enough of each other to be easily finished up. What better way to do that than have about 50-50 fight...Albeit legions didn't split 100% as he planned but c'est'la'vie

tneva82 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

Yeah Emperor planned to get rid of the marines so made sure they would kill enough of each other to be easily finished up. What better way to do that than have about 50-50 fight...Albeit legions didn't split 100% as he planned but c'est'la'vie

Honestly, the biggest problem with his plan was the sheer size of the Ultramarines...

I'm a bit leery of the whole slave encoding theory because many of the Primarchs that turned traitor either did so before being influenced by Chaos or were never influenced by Chaos at all. It seems a bit of a stretch to imagine they could go traitor if the Emperor baked in some kind of slave encorsing bit. Take Konrad Cruze, he was a crazy SOB that went full on traitor but never started worshiping chaos. And I remember reading some short stories were in the early days after being discovered that many of the primarchs that ended up turning were very surely/insubordinate such as Mortarion, who is also a good example of a Primarch that went traitor before falling to chaos.

Honestly I don't think this comes down to anything more than bad writing, which lets be honest, is something that the Black Library has in spades. I don't think they ever sat down and came to some agreed upon power level for the Emperor so you get all kinds of inconsistencies in the writing. I really have a hard time believing that the Black Library writers are so clever that there is some hidden explanation for every time the Emperor does something that seems really over powered compared to other times when he is written as being much less powerful.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself.

He never did such a thing. There were tens of thousands of people holding that breach, most of them on the wrong side of real-space.


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pm713 wrote:
There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

This was no longer the human Emperor by this point. This was the God-Emperor of Mankind with a trillions strong base of psychically active worshipers. Humans created four of the five Chaos Gods, remember.

Whether or not the Emperor and the God-Emperor are even the same being is a debate for another time though. (hint, the Horus Heresy series implies they are not).

As I remember there was the part after the fighting in the Webway where the Emperor was holding it shut and that's why Malcador had to sit on the Throne for a bit later on. Am I wrong?

Five Chaos Gods? Is the fifth one still a thing?

Its blatantly obvious it wasn't slave coding (even ignoring that does not exist within the Primarchs) since its clear the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power with the underlined parts I showed. And slave coding would not make the Word Bearers go flying, as I have quoted. And the Emperor does appear as a Godlike heavenly being radiating a heavenly golden light.

I’m not totally so,d on slave coding or whatever you call it but I like the idea. The radiant glow and heavenly apperarance were just as how, a mind trick. He was really a wrinkly old dude I think.


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Also, other psykers being able to mind control whole planets doesn’t mean he could. Not all psykers are equal.

Andykp wrote:
I’m not totally so,d on slave coding or whatever you call it but I like the idea. The radiant glow and heavenly apperarance were just as how, a mind trick. He was really a wrinkly old dude I think.


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Also, other psykers being able to mind control whole planets doesn’t mean he could. Not all psykers are equal.

The First Heretic says he forced them to kneel with his power, but everything is told from unreliable narrators. And many Primarchs decided to join Chaos before they were Chaos tainted.



The Emperor is a young looking man. The Perpetuals are.

You make claims of such certainty which is odd in a fictional setting with so many conflicting sources that certainty is impossible and deliberately so to the point we are on occasion mislead by design.

Andykp wrote:
You make claims of such certainty which is odd in a fictional setting with so many conflicting sources that certainty is impossible and deliberately so to the point we are on occasion mislead by design.

And everything is told from unreliable narrators.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
You make claims of such certainty which is odd in a fictional setting with so many conflicting sources that certainty is impossible and deliberately so to the point we are on occasion mislead by design.

And everything is told from unreliable narrators.

So,why are so certain about these things?

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
You make claims of such certainty which is odd in a fictional setting with so many conflicting sources that certainty is impossible and deliberately so to the point we are on occasion mislead by design.

And everything is told from unreliable narrators.

So,why are so certain about these things?

I am not. I'm saying that the books say that, but everything is told from unreliable narrators.

If you know everything in the books is ipunreliable why do unfeelmsomcertain that a few quotes proves what you believe?

Andykp wrote:
If you know everything in the books is ipunreliable why do unfeelmsomcertain that a few quotes proves what you believe?

Its just what the books say. But everything is told from unreliable narrators.

That makes no sense.

Andykp wrote:
That makes no sense.

The books say what they do, but everything is told from unreliable narrators, so there is mostly no true interpretation.

Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

He used the Astronomican to create the fire of angels in Talon of Horus.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

But they won't. As it stands one Chaos God teaming up with another gives them the power to eliminate one of the others but they won't because they're all selfish beings. If Khorne killed the Emperor he'd be so weakened by it then he'd die soon after so he wouldn't ever do it. But the Emperor is supposed to be the saviour of humanity so if he can kill Chaos then he'd do it.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

But they won't. As it stands one Chaos God teaming up with another gives them the power to eliminate one of the others but they won't because they're all selfish beings. If Khorne killed the Emperor he'd be so weakened by it then he'd die soon after so he wouldn't ever do it. But the Emperor is supposed to be the saviour of humanity so if he can kill Chaos then he'd do it.

How do you know they won't. You can't possibly know that. Chaos' number 1 plan is to get rid of the Emperor, they even have a daemon just for the job, the end of empires. Keeping the Emperor alive only hurts the Chaos gods. As for the Emperor killing the gods, there is no lore saying that they can even die, Slaanesh existed before his birth so we know they are probably eternal. He might be able to reduce their powers into a dormant state like Slaanesh.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

But they won't. As it stands one Chaos God teaming up with another gives them the power to eliminate one of the others but they won't because they're all selfish beings. If Khorne killed the Emperor he'd be so weakened by it then he'd die soon after so he wouldn't ever do it. But the Emperor is supposed to be the saviour of humanity so if he can kill Chaos then he'd do it.

How do you know they won't. You can't possibly know that. Chaos' number 1 plan is to get rid of the Emperor, they even have a daemon just for the job, the end of empires. Keeping the Emperor alive only hurts the Chaos gods. As for the Emperor killing the gods, there is no lore saying that they can even die, Slaanesh existed before his birth so we know they are probably eternal. He might be able to reduce their powers into a dormant state like Slaanesh.

I just explained why. Equally you can't know they won't. Slaanesh also didn't exist before it's birth at the same time and other gods died so Chaos can too.