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Oh, in case you don't know how allies work: up to 20% of your army can be from an allied subfaction.

This means a standard 2k list can have a max of 400p of allies. In case of your FEC units, you could include a Ghoul king on terrorgheist (400p), but not one on a zombie dragon (440p). Or 2 ghoul kings on foot (280p).

Those ghoul kings tend to be able to summon a few extra troops in when he rallies them around him, your GKoTG could summon in 3 crypt horrors (or flayers, which are winged horrors), or your 2 Ghoul kings could summon 2 units of 10 ghouls, but those summons would cost you command points (similar to 40k, except you only generate 1 CP per turn in AoS). Thjose summoned units do not cost you regular points, and do not cause you to lose any allegiance abilities during the game.

So unless you REALLY had a super specific army you wanted to recreate from an old VC army, you should be just fine in current AoS, as Legions of Nagash (and the new beastman book) did a really good job of taking an "old WHFB army" and converting it to AoS2. They are competitive, and you almost have to go and look for combos that aren't possible in the new book.

 Elmir wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what your undead collection consists of, but if it doesn't include any of the new ghosts, you have 2 main choices: Legions of Nagash or Flesh-eater courts. If you chose a legions of Nagash list, you essentially use all of the old VC army, except for the strigoi bloodline... If you select Flesh-eater courts, you essentially only select strigoi stuff, varghulfs, ghouls etc. You can still add small amounts in cross factions, but they are considered allies. Just a sidenote: you never incure penalties in AoS for mixing things, you do get bonuses (a lot sometimes) for sticking with themed armies.

If you have an old "generic" VC army, you can pretty much make a whole host of decent Legions of Nagash lists these days. Your options would be:

- Grand host of Nagash: You can take whatever you want, but your army will typically include lots of skeletons, grave guard, maybe some of the new morghasts and possibly even Nagash. This faction tends to buff your "bone units" to insane heights and excels at attrition warfare. This can include any mortarch and you have to select this if you take Nagash himself.
- Legion of Sacrament: you can include anything you want, but you get bonuses to spell casting, so logically, you'll want to include lots of wizards (vampires or necromancers) to make the most out of your bonuses. This is Arkan the black's legion.
- Legion of Night: you can take whatever you want, but this is an army that relies on ambush tactics, so you'll want to use fast flying units that can drop in via the flanks and use their speed well. This would be Manfred's legion.
- Legion of Blood: you can take whatever you want, but this army gets a boost to vampire units, so you'll want to include more of those to make the most of your bonuses. This is Neferatta's legion.

Should you have an old VC army that was knee deep in strigoi bloodline (so lots of ghouls, crypt horrors, ghoul kings on foot/terror gheist etc), you are probably better off with a Flesh-eater court army

Well, this is the whole issue. My army was a mix of Ghoul and non-Ghoul stuff.

If memory serves, I've got:
- Several Vampires/Vampire Lords
- A Strigoi Ghoul King
- 2 Necromancers
- 3 Wraiths
- 2 Banshees
- 40 Grave Guard
- ~100 Skeletons
- 50 Ghouls
- 9 Crypt Horrors
- 10 Dire Wolves
- 1 Varghulf
- Corpse Cart
- Terrorgheist

 Elmir wrote:
Every faction that I mentioned gets their own command traits (same as in 40k essentially, if you are familiar with that) and gets to select 1 (or more, if you invest points in battalions) artifact from their army. You can however make one of the mortal realms your home realm. If you do so, you get to select the artifact from a list of artifact that are "common" for your realm. If you REALLY want your ghoul king on foot to fly, you can by making the realm of metal the home world of you death army, and then giving the ghoul king the "hydroxskin cloak", allowing him to fly (and actually potentially cause D3 mortal wounds if he flies over a unit)

Well, that could work.

 Overread wrote:
Note that both realms for your army and realms as a battle feature are optional extras, so agree with your opponent before use.

Oh.

Yep - though realm stuff will vary club to club; some clubs its pretty much auto include without asking; others its ask before. It depends on the attitude of those playing really.


Endless Spells are mostly default auto include; Realm stuff varies and not everyone plays on a realm battlefield every time either, but most are pretty accepting of its use in general.

 vipoid wrote:

Well, this is the whole issue. My army was a mix of Ghoul and non-Ghoul stuff.

If memory serves, I've got:
- Several Vampires/Vampire Lords
- A Strigoi Ghoul King
- 2 Necromancers
- 3 Wraiths
- 2 Banshees
- 40 Grave Guard
- ~100 Skeletons
- 50 Ghouls
- 9 Crypt Horrors
- 10 Dire Wolves
- 1 Varghulf
- Corpse Cart
- Terrorgheist

.

Oh... Well... I would NOT worry about being screwed over with that large a collection. You handily have enough there to mix and match from both allegiances in AoS tbh (in most current formats). Unless you are only into battles that include your entire collection (which would make many other people default back to their Grand alliance aka very few bonuses).

You could easily field several decent 2000p builds with that collection in AoS2. Two blocks of 40 skeletons and a block of 30 grave guard is a super solid core for any legion, but especially so for Grand host of Nagash. Just toss in a few support characters like the necromancers and some vampires and you should have a super solid foundation for 2k LoN.

Your 50 ghouls and 9 crypt horrors and Vargulf are a solid core for FEC as well, although you probably want to buy an extra box of the horrors to make a few characters out of it, as the FEC really do require lots of heroes for support. The terrorgheist can be used by both FEC and LoN, so you get some good overlap out of that one.

 Elmir wrote:

Oh... Well... I would NOT worry about being screwed over with that large a collection. You handily have enough there to mix and match from both allegiances in AoS tbh (in most current formats). Unless you are only into battles that include your entire collection (which would make many other people default back to their Grand alliance aka very few bonuses).

Not my entire collection, but it would be nice if I could use Ghoul stuff and skeleton/vampire/necromancer/wraith stuff in the same army.

 Elmir wrote:

You could easily field several decent 2000p builds with that collection in AoS2. Two blocks of 40 skeletons and a block of 30 grave guard is a super solid core for any legion, but especially so for Grand host of Nagash. Just toss in a few support characters like the necromancers and some vampires and you should have a super solid foundation for 2k LoN.

Hmm, so what about something like this:

Vampire Lord (Chalice, Wings)
Vampire Lord (Chalice)
Necromancer
Necromancer
Tomb Banshee
Cairn Wraith
30 Grave Guard
40 Skeleton Warriors
40 Skeleton Warriors
Corpse Cart (Lodestone)
Terrorgheist

Would that work?

Also, as I mentioned earlier, I'd like to use a Vampire as my general but they look incredibly squishy (5 wounds and a 4+ save with no special defences). Given that blocking LoS to him is going to be all but impossible, is there any way to stop my opponent from sniping him with spells or ranged weapons the moment he gets anywhere near the front line?

 Elmir wrote:

Your 50 ghouls and 9 crypt horrors and Vargulf are a solid core for FEC as well, although you probably want to buy an extra box of the horrors to make a few characters out of it, as the FEC really do require lots of heroes for support. The terrorgheist can be used by both FEC and LoN, so you get some good overlap out of that one.

I just checked and I haven't got anywhere near enough for a 2000pt Flesh Eater Courts army.

And for the record, this is just one reason why I don't want my ghoul stuff to be stuck on their own.

That list could work, but sniping is indeed a danger in it... Keeping your general alive is very important. A lot of people go for the more durable Vampire lord on Zombie Dragon because of it.

Also, you'd need to run your list as Grand host of Nagash, or you would not have 3 battle line units. A fix could be to squeeze in 5 dire wolves in lieu of for instance, a wraith, banshee or the second necromancer.

If you were to go that route, you could go for a heavy spellcasting Legion of Sacrament list (would work well with a corpecart with lodestone for a +2) and it unlocks the best artifact to prevent shooting sniping (giving a further -1 to snipe heroes or even -2 (for a total of -3) if you are further than 8" away.

I think you could have a lot of fun with that list. Especially if you scratch build 2 items that could function as a spell portal. for this army as well.

 Elmir wrote:
That list could work, but sniping is indeed a danger in it... Keeping your general alive is very important. A lot of people go for the more durable Vampire lord on Zombie Dragon because of it.

Ugh. I have to be brutally honest - it seems every time I find something to like about new Age of Sigmar, it's immediately countered by something obnoxious.

So Vampire Lords want to be in or near combat, but they have garbage defence stats and can't hide in any meaningful way? Thanks GW, I'm so glad I picked this army for it's strong HQs.

 Elmir wrote:

Also, you'd need to run your list as Grand host of Nagash, or you would not have 3 battle line units. A fix could be to squeeze in 5 dire wolves in lieu of for instance, a wraith, banshee or the second necromancer.

Now I'm confused. I thought you suggested running Legion of Nagash in the first place. Is it not good after all?

 Elmir wrote:

If you were to go that route, you could go for a heavy spellcasting Legion of Sacrament list (would work well with a corpecart with lodestone for a +2) and it unlocks the best artifact to prevent shooting sniping (giving a further -1 to snipe heroes or even -2 (for a total of -3) if you are further than 8" away.

That's a shame, I was rather hoping to take the Terrorgheist Mantle.

What if I gave up on the Vampire Lords and made a Necromancer my General. Would that be any better?

 Elmir wrote:
I think you could have a lot of fun with that list. Especially if you scratch build 2 items that could function as a spell portal. for this army as well.

What does a spell portal do?


Thanks for all your help, btw. Sorry for being a bit dejected but it just seems that a lot of the reasons for my initially buying into Vampire Counts have now been stripped away.

To be honest Vipoid I don't think you'll enjoy AoS. I'm not saying this in a bad thing, just... I don't think you'll find the mecahnics apealing. I think you love customization, and AoS just doesn't let hitself to that. The tactics are also lacking in the game.

I play it. It is not my favourite game, but I play with fun people so its all good. I can use my fantasy collection and even somethings like the new Beast of Chaos Battletome inspire me to collect new armies.

vipoid honestly I'd say try to get to a GW store and try some things out. You might be able to read a store copy of a battletome and some other material which make make some things a bit easier. Right now you're getting bits here and there from us, which you're using for form half ideas based on half the info. I think if you've all the info right in front of you you'd find it much more gratifying and rewarding.

I do agree that your army might not be the same one that you bought into in some ways; however I'd say go in with as open a mind as you can. You might well find that within the new changes are things that you do enjoy for different reasons.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest Vipoid I don't think you'll enjoy AoS. I'm not saying this in a bad thing, just... I don't think you'll find the mecahnics apealing. I think you love customization, and AoS just doesn't let hitself to that. The tactics are also lacking in the game.

You might well be right. You're certainly not wrong about my liking customisation (but I want to use it to model actual mechanical effects - e.g. I might well model wings on a model in place of a Jump Pack, but I don't want to just stick wings on a model that has no means of flight). And, outside of artefacts (which I'm wary of since their longevity tends to be fickle), it seems there's little customisation to be had now.

I could maybe work with just using artefacts, but then it seems I'm locked into a specific artefact from a specific subfaction if I want my General to stay alive, or else I have to invest in a 'centrepiece' General that I don't want and won't enjoy using. I don't know, it's just disheartening to see vampire lords being barely better defensively than the flimsy casters of any other race.

 Galas wrote:

I play it. It is not my favourite game, but I play with fun people so its all good. I can use my fantasy collection and even somethings like the new Beast of Chaos Battletome inspire me to collect new armies.

Well, the reason I was looking at Age of Sigmar again is because some people in my group have started playing it. I might try a game and see how it goes, if only because it saddens me to see my army collecting dust on the shelf.

I can't see myself getting into it, but maybe I'll end up playing the occasional game.

Thanks for your advice.

 Overread wrote:
vipoid honestly I'd say try to get to a GW store and try some things out. You might be able to read a store copy of a battletome and some other material which make make some things a bit easier. Right now you're getting bits here and there from us, which you're using for form half ideas based on half the info. I think if you've all the info right in front of you you'd find it much more gratifying and rewarding.

I do agree that your army might not be the same one that you bought into in some ways; however I'd say go in with as open a mind as you can. You might well find that within the new changes are things that you do enjoy for different reasons.

I don't know if I'll be able to get to a GW store any time soon, but I'll see if I can get a game at my club next time I'm able to go.

 vipoid wrote:


Ugh. I have to be brutally honest - it seems every time I find something to like about new Age of Sigmar, it's immediately countered by something obnoxious.

So Vampire Lords want to be in or near combat, but they have garbage defence stats and can't hide in any meaningful way? Thanks GW, I'm so glad I picked this army for it's strong HQs.


Now I'm confused. I thought you suggested running Legion of Nagash in the first place. Is it not good after all?


That's a shame, I was rather hoping to take the Terrorgheist Mantle.

What if I gave up on the Vampire Lords and made a Necromancer my General. Would that be any better?


What does a spell portal do?


Thanks for all your help, btw. Sorry for being a bit dejected but it just seems that a lot of the reasons for my initially buying into Vampire Counts have now been stripped away.

Well, first things first: In general, Vampires are quite strong compared to most other heroes in the game. The combination of very capable in combat, fast (even without wings modelled, you can always make a vampire fly: bursting into a cloud of bats, moving as a mist, that sort of oldschool vampire stuff) is something a lot of armies would envy. But he's not exactly as tough as a monster would be.... The fact that they resurrect dead (summonable) models automatically makes them excellent aura heroes, so Vampire lords really are incredibly strong for a hero: but there's only so far an infantry hero can go.

All heroes get protected against shooting if there's a friendly unit nearby (a -1 to hit), but it's no longer a virtual immunity like old WHFB was. Legion of sacrament can give you near immunity from shooting via one of their artifacts (total of -3 to hit) though, so that's why I suggested that might be an option to consider IF you are really worried about hero sniping via shooting. Unfortunately, if you opt for that, you won't get Grave Guard as a battleline unit, so a small alteration to your list would be needed.

A necromancer is also a fine choice for a general, who's better protected against shooting. You could still use terrorgheist mantle if you really are keen on trying it. Experiment with it, because you would not be making too drastic a change to your list and you do have all the models at hand. See what floats your boat better.

A spell portal is something new in AoS 2: it's a spell you can cast that puts actual models on the tabletop and acts as a "conduit" for your spells, greatly extending their range. It's always a good addition if you decided you like legion of Sacrament!

These are fairly easy to scratch build though, as long as you have 2 things to represent the nexus. Aos2 got a whole host of these physical manifestations of spells on the table top. Google Malign sorcery, it adds a ton of great dynamics to the game.

PS: the translation of the old Vampire counts is still quite good in Legions of Nagash. They have strong heroes who keep your army from falling apart, but they can get killed... Things in AoS die/get taken out of action a lot... But if your heroes do manage to stay alive, your opponent is in a world of pain, because the army can regenerate so quickly if the heroes make it through. Also, if you look up how gravesties work, you can do some amazingly sneaky things to outmaneuver your opponent.

If Legions of Nagash (VCs) as they currently are, had the type of character protection old WHFB had, the game would be next to unwinnable for your opponent. If your general is still alive, you can make him resurrect entire units that have been destroyed... That ability is so powerful, it still triggers some people here on the boards to no end...

 Elmir wrote:

Well, first things first: In general, Vampires are quite strong compared to most other heroes in the game. The combination of very capable in combat, fast (even without wings modelled, you can always make a vampire fly: bursting into a cloud of bats, moving as a mist, that sort of oldschool vampire stuff) is something a lot of armies would envy. But he's not exactly as tough as a monster would be.... The fact that they resurrect dead (summonable) models automatically makes them excellent aura heroes, so Vampire lords really are incredibly strong for a hero: but there's only so far an infantry hero can go.

Hmm, okay. So how exactly do you use them? It seems like they want to be in combat (to use their sword and get The Hunger), but at the same time want to be out of harm's way.

Do you have to restrict yourself to going after very weak targets with them?

Also, good point regarding the various methods of flight. I might still try to make a vampire model with wings, though, because I like winged models.

 Elmir wrote:

All heroes get protected against shooting if there's a friendly unit nearby (a -1 to hit), but it's no longer a virtual immunity like old WHFB was.

Ah, that's useful to know. I think I must have been looking at an older version of the rules before (since that rule wasn't mentioned).

 Elmir wrote:
Legion of sacrament can give you near immunity from shooting via one of their artifacts (total of -3 to hit) though, so that's why I suggested that might be an option to consider IF you are really worried about hero sniping via shooting. Unfortunately, if you opt for that, you won't get Grave Guard as a battleline unit, so a small alteration to your list would be needed.

Hmm, I think I'll stick with Host of Nagash for now. If my heroes start getting sniped, I'll change so that I can take the Shroud.

 Elmir wrote:

A necromancer is also a fine choice for a general, who's better protected against shooting. You could still use terrorgheist mantle if you really are keen on trying it. Experiment with it, because you would not be making too drastic a change to your list and you do have all the models at hand. See what floats your boat better.

Out of interest, do you happen to know whether the Deathforged Chain is any good on a Vampire Lord?

I ask since it seems to be the only way to heal him without putting him in more danger.

 Elmir wrote:

A spell portal is something new in AoS 2: it's a spell you can cast that puts actual models on the tabletop and acts as a "conduit" for your spells, greatly extending their range. It's always a good addition if you decided you like legion of Sacrament!

Spoiler:

These are fairly easy to scratch build though, as long as you have 2 things to represent the nexus. Aos2 got a whole host of these physical manifestations of spells on the table top. Google Malign sorcery, it adds a ton of great dynamics to the game.

Interesting. Okay, I'll give that a look. Cheers.

 Elmir wrote:

PS: the translation of the old Vampire counts is still quite good in Legions of Nagash. They have strong heroes who keep your army from falling apart, but they can get killed... Things in AoS die/get taken out of action a lot... But if your heroes do manage to stay alive, your opponent is in a world of pain, because the army can regenerate so quickly if the heroes make it through. Also, if you look up how gravesties work, you can do some amazingly sneaky things to outmaneuver your opponent.

So, with regard to heroes, is it generally better to prioritise defence/healing over offence (where possible in terms of Command Traits and Artefacts), since it's seemingly the rank&file troops who do the damage now?

 Elmir wrote:

If Legions of Nagash (VCs) as they currently are, had the type of character protection old WHFB had, the game would be next to unwinnable for your opponent. If your general is still alive, you can make him resurrect entire units that have been destroyed... That ability is so powerful, it still triggers some people here on the boards to no end...

xD

You're probably right. I expect it will just take quite a bit of getting used to for someone like me, who's used to his HQs doing most of the actual killing.


Thanks for all your help. You've made me quite interested in trying the AoS Vampire Counts.

A good point touched on here is that armies no longer get their faction specific rules unless they take the correct 'formations'.

As a Skaven player I find it to be horse gak that my Skaven no longer gain better morale through numbers, unless I buy some Stormvermin. Its basically a massive and hard hitting nerfbat to the face as the morale phase (or battlewhatevernow) sees my units crumble unto dust.

darkcloak wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Since when did JRR Tolkien become "low" fantasy?

gaks got talking trees and undead armies! Low fantasy my shiny white patooshie.

By that metric, is Conan the Barbarian high fantasy?

Um, that's totally out to lunch, mate. Haha, Lunchmate. That idea is so silly you could dip it in Cheez.

If we are talking about traditional 'high' and 'low' fantasy where HF is the realm of magic, mythical creatures and suchlike and LF is more mundane, realistic and whatnot, then by that metric Conan would actually be low fantasy.

Conan, as originally written by Robert E. Howard is very much the story of an uncompromising man facing the harsh realities of his world. There is magic and myth involved but it is portrayed as rare. It's involvement in the story serves as a catalyst for change which the main character must react to. Conan does not use a magic sword or ride a dragon. Low Fantasy.

Peregrin Took and Meriadoc Brandybuck ride to the Ent Moot on the shoulder of a giant sentient tree. An Ent. Tolkien created an entire language for use by a race of Elves. Also, The Silmarillion is kind of a thing. High Fantasy.

I think TV may have spoiled a few things for people over the years. Seriously, go read all of Tolkien's stuff if you haven't already. As well as original REH penned Conan. Hour of the Dragon in particular stands out as the first and only novel actually written by Robert himself.


Now back to the topic at hand. No, I don't Rend -2 is better than Damage 3 on a lesser Rend.

Conan has had Dragons, wizards, GODS, and worse. It's just as high fantasy as LOTR. OR LOTR is just as low fantasy as Conan. If we use "anything fantastical" as the benchmark for "high fantasy", then EVERYTHING damn near is high fantasy.

*withdrawn

 vipoid wrote:

 Elmir wrote:

Well, first things first: In general, Vampires are quite strong compared to most other heroes in the game. The combination of very capable in combat, fast (even without wings modelled, you can always make a vampire fly: bursting into a cloud of bats, moving as a mist, that sort of oldschool vampire stuff) is something a lot of armies would envy. But he's not exactly as tough as a monster would be.... The fact that they resurrect dead (summonable) models automatically makes them excellent aura heroes, so Vampire lords really are incredibly strong for a hero: but there's only so far an infantry hero can go.

Hmm, okay. So how exactly do you use them? It seems like they want to be in combat (to use their sword and get The Hunger), but at the same time want to be out of harm's way.

Do you have to restrict yourself to going after very weak targets with them?

Also, good point regarding the various methods of flight. I might still try to make a vampire model with wings, though, because I like winged models.

 Elmir wrote:

All heroes get protected against shooting if there's a friendly unit nearby (a -1 to hit), but it's no longer a virtual immunity like old WHFB was.

Ah, that's useful to know. I think I must have been looking at an older version of the rules before (since that rule wasn't mentioned).

 Elmir wrote:
Legion of sacrament can give you near immunity from shooting via one of their artifacts (total of -3 to hit) though, so that's why I suggested that might be an option to consider IF you are really worried about hero sniping via shooting. Unfortunately, if you opt for that, you won't get Grave Guard as a battleline unit, so a small alteration to your list would be needed.

Hmm, I think I'll stick with Host of Nagash for now. If my heroes start getting sniped, I'll change so that I can take the Shroud.

 Elmir wrote:

A necromancer is also a fine choice for a general, who's better protected against shooting. You could still use terrorgheist mantle if you really are keen on trying it. Experiment with it, because you would not be making too drastic a change to your list and you do have all the models at hand. See what floats your boat better.

Out of interest, do you happen to know whether the Deathforged Chain is any good on a Vampire Lord?

I ask since it seems to be the only way to heal him without putting him in more danger.

 Elmir wrote:

A spell portal is something new in AoS 2: it's a spell you can cast that puts actual models on the tabletop and acts as a "conduit" for your spells, greatly extending their range. It's always a good addition if you decided you like legion of Sacrament!

Spoiler:

These are fairly easy to scratch build though, as long as you have 2 things to represent the nexus. Aos2 got a whole host of these physical manifestations of spells on the table top. Google Malign sorcery, it adds a ton of great dynamics to the game.

Interesting. Okay, I'll give that a look. Cheers.

 Elmir wrote:

PS: the translation of the old Vampire counts is still quite good in Legions of Nagash. They have strong heroes who keep your army from falling apart, but they can get killed... Things in AoS die/get taken out of action a lot... But if your heroes do manage to stay alive, your opponent is in a world of pain, because the army can regenerate so quickly if the heroes make it through. Also, if you look up how gravesties work, you can do some amazingly sneaky things to outmaneuver your opponent.

So, with regard to heroes, is it generally better to prioritise defence/healing over offence (where possible in terms of Command Traits and Artefacts), since it's seemingly the rank&file troops who do the damage now?

 Elmir wrote:

If Legions of Nagash (VCs) as they currently are, had the type of character protection old WHFB had, the game would be next to unwinnable for your opponent. If your general is still alive, you can make him resurrect entire units that have been destroyed... That ability is so powerful, it still triggers some people here on the boards to no end...

xD

You're probably right. I expect it will just take quite a bit of getting used to for someone like me, who's used to his HQs doing most of the actual killing.


Thanks for all your help. You've made me quite interested in trying the AoS Vampire Counts.

So something else to mention. Legions love their heroes, a lot. People hate your heroes, a lot. What a Legion army can do is that heroes have the ability to return models to a group that have lost numbers. This is a d3 for the number they add. A legions army also gets 4 grave yards to place around, they each select 1 unit, and they could theoretically all pick the same one, for d3 models each. This can make a skeleton squad that got hit had to ressurect 10-12 skeletons back. Also legions generals can ressurrect a unit that has been taken out of action back into play.

Also from the new edition, if any model you have has a command ability, it can use it even if it's not the general. The general only gets a command trait, and for generic command abilities, gets a longer range.

Also from what you have, if you decided to not do a legions or a flesh eater army, you can be a death army. Death has its own traits and artefacts, but you lose out on graveyards for legions, or delusions for flesh eater courts.

 master of ordinance wrote:
A good point touched on here is that armies no longer get their faction specific rules unless they take the correct 'formations'.

Eeeh...No, it isn't a point. Some are locked unto needing battallions, yes, but as of today most of the factions get their alleigance abilities free of any charge. And this is not counting the alleigances of the grand alliances themselves (in which case everyone gets faction rules) or the Firestorm ones (in which case everyone bar a very select handful has army rules)

As a Skaven player I find it to be horse gak that my Skaven no longer gain better morale through numbers, unless I buy some Stormvermin. Its basically a massive and hard hitting nerfbat to the face as the morale phase (or battlewhatevernow) sees my units crumble unto dust.

Proxy the stormvermin? Play as Pestilens or Skryre? Use command abilities or the crown of conquest to bypass battleshock alltogether?

With all due respect, your units crumble to dust due to your refusal to use any options, even the latter two (the command ability and CoC) which you have available from the getgo.

 Just Tony wrote:

darkcloak wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Since when did JRR Tolkien become "low" fantasy?

gaks got talking trees and undead armies! Low fantasy my shiny white patooshie.

By that metric, is Conan the Barbarian high fantasy?

Um, that's totally out to lunch, mate. Haha, Lunchmate. That idea is so silly you could dip it in Cheez.

If we are talking about traditional 'high' and 'low' fantasy where HF is the realm of magic, mythical creatures and suchlike and LF is more mundane, realistic and whatnot, then by that metric Conan would actually be low fantasy.

Conan, as originally written by Robert E. Howard is very much the story of an uncompromising man facing the harsh realities of his world. There is magic and myth involved but it is portrayed as rare. It's involvement in the story serves as a catalyst for change which the main character must react to. Conan does not use a magic sword or ride a dragon. Low Fantasy.

Peregrin Took and Meriadoc Brandybuck ride to the Ent Moot on the shoulder of a giant sentient tree. An Ent. Tolkien created an entire language for use by a race of Elves. Also, The Silmarillion is kind of a thing. High Fantasy.

I think TV may have spoiled a few things for people over the years. Seriously, go read all of Tolkien's stuff if you haven't already. As well as original REH penned Conan. Hour of the Dragon in particular stands out as the first and only novel actually written by Robert himself.


Now back to the topic at hand. No, I don't Rend -2 is better than Damage 3 on a lesser Rend.

Conan has had Dragons, wizards, GODS, and worse. It's just as high fantasy as LOTR. OR LOTR is just as low fantasy as Conan. If we use "anything fantastical" as the benchmark for "high fantasy", then EVERYTHING damn near is high fantasy.

Both LOTR and Conan are high fantasy.

For example, Game of Thrones is high fantasy too, but the world it is divided. Westeros would be low fantasy (You have literally no magic or creatures or stranger things until the Mountain becomes a zombi, but you have dragons as background, the sense of mistery, etc...). The north of the wall would be high fantasy, as it is the east with the dragons and the far-east with the magic and all of that.

Some disagree with that, though. Look above at the person arguing that Conan IS low fantasy. I actually agree with him, but I feel that LOTR is also low fantasy. It's still grounded in enough reality to not seem... completely unbelievable. Whereas you look at the WOW sort of thing, or the Mortal Realms in AOS, where the unbelievable outweighs the believable, and to me you cross that threshold into high fantasy. High fantasy, to me, is basically Sci Fi without the science. Star Wars would be more high fantasy to me than Sci Fi, for instance. Krull? That'd be a tough one. I'm thinking more high fantasy simply because of the sheer amount of unbelievable elements and very little in the "grounded in reality" department.


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 EnTyme wrote:
*withdrawn

Now you have me curious...

I always saw low fantasy as something rooted in reality or our world, so I always considered LOTR and Conan Low Fantasy.

I consider high fantasy the outlandish magic the gathering stuff.

Tolkien's works run from incredibly high fantasy during the first age and before (demi-gods warring over Arda, monstrous creatures such as dragons, with one particular example almost as big as a mountain range, werewolves, at least one example of a vampire) running to the war of the ring which is decidedly low fantasy with magic being low and fantastic creatures being much less prevalent. It's a sliding scale.

Conan I'd definitely agree being a low fantasy.

We have a consensus, it seems. At that mark, I'd definitely throw WFB in as low fantasy, with AOS as high fantasy.

AoS might even make it to Epic if you consider that in the Lore one Realm has a dragon that is so big its like a second sun. In fact the whole Realm structure I think pushes it from high to epic.

That said Epic, High, Low are only rough terms.

 Just Tony wrote:
We have a consensus, it seems. At that mark, I'd definitely throw WFB in as low fantasy, with AOS as high fantasy.

No, WHF has always been high fantasy. With a lot fantasic creatures, very prolific magic (literal storms of it), myriad of races, literal portals to hell on the north and south poles etc. It's not grounded in the slightest. AoS is epic fantasy, cranking it up even higher.

I played Age of Sigmar for a bit as part of a path to glory campaign as the Fyreslayers. I enjoyed the system and found it a fine game, but ultimately dropped it and sold my Fyreslayers. I think some of the reasons for this would be because I didn't really feel the fyreslayer army speak to me. In fact none of the armies in AOS really appeal to me and make me want to play them. I also did not like the double turn system at all and gameplay wise it was the #1 thing that kept me away from liking all parts of the game.

As is I could see myself getting back into it only if there was an army I really liked and drew me in, but as is there is nothing of the sort.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Tolkien's works run from incredibly high fantasy during the first age and before (demi-gods warring over Arda, monstrous creatures such as dragons, with one particular example almost as big as a mountain range, werewolves, at least one example of a vampire) running to the war of the ring which is decidedly low fantasy with magic being low and fantastic creatures being much less prevalent. It's a sliding scale.

Conan I'd definitely agree being a low fantasy.

I have to say Just Tony said it perfectly. While Tolkien had the demi gods warring over arda, monstrous creatures, that is "all in myth" just like religions of today. So when we actually read all the stories Tolkien put out, they are really believable. That is why LotR is low fantasy. Again it doesn't mean it's less, but it's more "grounded" and real life, believable as Just Tony said.

If LotR is high fantasy then it would be unbelievable and fake. For me, in my opinion when I have read Lord of the Rings, while I knew magic and gods were fake, Tolkien has made it believable and I can see this being real. Even Peter Jackson (agree or disagree with his vision) made LotR seem real as well, just like Tolkien did. Even with the Balrog. It was believable and didn't look like a fake deamon or demon or what not and not out of place like it was in a Age of Sigmar setting.

To me saying LotR is high fantasy, is a disservice. It's calling it fake and unbelievable.

Again, not saying you are wrong, just my opinion.

 vipoid wrote:


Hmm, okay. So how exactly do you use them? It seems like they want to be in combat (to use their sword and get The Hunger), but at the same time want to be out of harm's way.

Do you have to restrict yourself to going after very weak targets with them?

Also, good point regarding the various methods of flight. I might still try to make a vampire model with wings, though, because I like winged models.

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Out of interest, do you happen to know whether the Deathforged Chain is any good on a Vampire Lord?

I ask since it seems to be the only way to heal him without putting him in more danger.

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So, with regard to heroes, is it generally better to prioritise defence/healing over offence (where possible in terms of Command Traits and Artefacts), since it's seemingly the rank&file troops who do the damage now?

My vampires usually have flying, and I do send them into combat, usually AFTER my skeletons hordes pin the enemy into place. You can only pile in to the closest enemy model, so learning how to do good placement is key with these guys. I seldom use a VL (without a zombie dragon) as the general though. I take the coven throne, VLoZD or mortarchs as generals, as the general really is a key figure in the army. But I wouldn't go out buying anything new and just see if AoS2 is more to your liking.

I do tend to use that to fly over to enemy support heroes, as vampires have a good shot at taking them out. Remember: in the charge phase, you get to roll 2D6 and wait how much you roll to decide what to charge... You do not have to declare a target beforehand. A good roll can turn these guys into really good assassins. My vampires are also not afraid to leg it out of there and make retreat moves if needed. But waiting until the grunts clamp down an enemy before engaging (making your VL more of a "scalpel" rather than a hammer) is my preferred method of using them. My vampires often find themselves in the middle of my own blocks of troops because of the flexibility that fly provides and it screens them well from enemy assassination attempts.

Running a lighter "foot/horse" general with 5-6 wounds is always inherently dangerous as LoN, but... you can get more overlapping auras and more troop regeneration through it, so there is an upside. It can work, but shooting armies are it's Achilles heel.... Trying to make him survivable is going to be hard. That one wound item, isn't going to do much to help him.
-The Gryph-feather charm (realm of Beasts), has an item that always gives your opponent -1 to hit (both range and melee), for -2 on shooting and gives you another 1" Move.
- Ignax's Scales (realm of metal) give your a 4+ ignore on mortal wounds (followed by your natural 6+ (any) wound ignore as an undead character.
- The Ragged cloack (realm of Death) is a once per battle use that makes your character untargetable during an enemy shooting phase.
Those would be my top picks for defensive items if the shooting phase, with Gryph-feather charm being my nr1 pick.

And finally: yes, your troops can do a lot of heavy lifting in AoS2, where the heroes provide good support. It's not that black/white, but there are 2 very valid, powerfull ways to play LoN (both scoring top 10 spots at the latest facehammer GT btw):

A) Lots of smaller support heroes that buff your big block of troops, with a single strong character as general (VLoZD in his case). One list went in hard with a big block of 30 Grave Guard, 15 black knights and them some smaller units to fill in battlelines/cap objectives. He just speed buffed the cav/big block and just send them into suicide waves to grind opponents into the dust, while he kept regenning his own troops through his VLoZD who he played very conservatively

B) A full monster mash of insanely powerful vampires in a list that has: Neferrata, 2 VLoZD, 1 bloodseeker palanquin and 3x5 dogs (it's the royal court of Neferatta). No troops whatsoever to see you through, just 4 insanely strong vampires tossed in your opponents direction at frightening high speed and smash the enemies apart.

Legions of Nagash is an insanely versatile and fun book, without any new models and it should serve as an example for other armies that they want to "translate" from WHFB.

Read what i wrote again. LotR, the Third age and the War of the Ring is low fantasy. Silmarillion, the first and second ages are high fantasy slowly moving into low as time passes.

You need to remember some of the characters and events that happened. Such as when Melkor first walked Arda his form was that of a living mountain, walking through the world. or Ancalagon the black, a dragon so huge (and was still not fully grown at this point) that when Eärendil slew him, his falling body crushed the fortress of Angband and the entire mountain range with it. It's a sliding scale and that's a big point. As with the closing of the third age, magic and the fantastical was ending.

I cannot remember if I posted in this thread or not, but suffice it to say I love the aesthetic of this game. But there are two glaring things that have kept me back.

The first is that figuring out factions is a nightmare for this game. Some of the sections on the webstore have 1 model listed in them. What do you even do with a 1 model army?? The second issue is that with the new factions getting released, it's really hard to pick one and start. I love the Sea Elves, the Snake Elves and the Nighthaunt, even the new Stromcast models look good. But I am constantly wondering, what's next, should I wait? It's a hard life. :(

 Togusa wrote:

The first is that figuring out factions is a nightmare for this game. Some of the sections on the webstore have 1 model listed in them. What do you even do with a 1 model army??

Any AoS fan would agree with you that the store needs a clean up and that GW really needs to focus on AoS to get it up to speed.

Factions with only one or two models, to my eye, are very hard to impossible to run pure, and hard to run as a core army as many will lack even traits in the Generals Handbook. However they do exist as a nice allied unit. Something that can compliment one or more other armies without being specifically tied to them - yes an allied unit might not get a faction trait, but they can bring something else to the table on their own that can benefit select allied forces.


Also we've seen that since the 1.0 and 2.0 releases, GW is far more keen to keep models around rather than retire them. Finecast is still iffy, but I would wager any model in plastic (or clearly any that is half of a duel kit where the other half the kit is used by another main faction) is bound to remain and likely will be cleaned up by being moved into a latter full army release. As we saw with the recent Beasts of Chaos army.


Currently safest best are armies with Battletomes, you can be sure that they are safe and will continue to be supported. Armies without its hit and miss, though some logical conclusions can be made - Armies with traits in the Generals Handbook and a decent number of models are more likely to stick around - Darkling Covens would be one I'd expect to say, whilst something like Shadowblades might get rolled into another army (though that can be hard to say - Daughters of Khaine wasn't a "big" faction and yet now they are a key main faction)