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 obsidiankatana wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:
They could, but one of the draws of it in 7th was I could play against my friends with it when I couldn't find a HH game, now I can't.

I see this a lot.

While it's true that not all the units are fieldable in 40k, I haven't had too many problems playing my 30k army as their equivalent chapter/legion in 40k. A marine is a marine is a marine. Mingle some heavy and special weapons in, you have 40k tac squads. Outriders are still Bikes. Terminators are still terminators (cataphractii and tartaros are still options in 40k), consuls and praetors can become lieutenants and captains. Etc.

Yes, but you lose the depth of rules and feel of the armies.

Also, cataphractii and tartaros are not options for my IW/IM, who would be played as CSM/RnH.

The legion and chapter rules in 40k are pretty lame, and I still wana use my guys as they are in 30k.

I love inferno despite its glaring issues, but the more time passes without real news of the HH I fear the project started to die with Allan Bligh and 8th.

I kind of agree with OP, We're probably going to still see Angelus but I don't think anything after that unless someone seriously reignites the fire at FW.

Seriously, given GW's resources and their current pace of releases I feel like they could knock out an 8th edition index codex for HH in a couple of months. Does it need to be perfect? No, that's one thing that's going to keep selling Chapter Approved each year: "Buy a new book that fixes our previous mistakes."

Just how far off in points are 7th ed vanilla 40k marines from the HH Crusade points? How much of what's been updated to 8th could be ported to the HH without a TON of effort?

 Fajita Fan wrote:
Seriously, given GW's resources and their current pace of releases I feel like they could knock out an 8th edition index codex for HH in a couple of months. Does it need to be perfect? No, that's one thing that's going to keep selling Chapter Approved each year: "Buy a new book that fixes our previous mistakes."

Just how far off in points are 7th ed vanilla 40k marines from the HH Crusade points? How much of what's been updated to 8th could be ported to the HH without a TON of effort?

Well there are some companies that work with their fanbase at least by promoting modifications. There are even some modifications that become official games later because theyre more popular than the base game itself - like Counter Strike.

Now i know its too much to ask from GW or FW but it would be great if they took some fanbase modifications like the one Arbitorlan is making and call it at least semi-official. I dont think GW will ever cross this line of cooperation. Too bad.

Sir Heckington wrote:The legion and chapter rules in 40k are pretty lame, and I still wana use my guys as they are in 30k.

Fajita Fan wrote:Seriously, given GW's resources and their current pace of releases I feel like they could knock out an 8th edition index codex for HH in a couple of months. Does it need to be perfect? No, that's one thing that's going to keep selling Chapter Approved each year: "Buy a new book that fixes our previous mistakes."

I’ve not mentioned the project here, but since a few people seem to be unaware of it, there is currently a big ‘Heresy 8ed’ project running which has full rules for all Legions, plus Crusade Imperialis. It’s a fan project, so not ideal, but it’s a large group of people all feeding in to a ‘Community Version’ of the rules (which get updated every four months or so). There’s a Dakka thread for feedback on here, but the main project is hosted on the Heresy 30k forums,

The initial work did take a couple of months, but mostly since then it’s been occasional updates. It’s certainly the sort of thing the FW team could do in the same time period (it’s their full-time job after all!).

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731421.page

We will get Angelus and then dark angels, and that’s it I think, the game will likely then port over to the 8th/9th Ruleset, hope I’m wrong though as I really don’t see 8th being able to handle HH I’m the same manner, too much of the flavour will be lost

 ArbitorIan wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:The legion and chapter rules in 40k are pretty lame, and I still wana use my guys as they are in 30k.

Fajita Fan wrote:Seriously, given GW's resources and their current pace of releases I feel like they could knock out an 8th edition index codex for HH in a couple of months. Does it need to be perfect? No, that's one thing that's going to keep selling Chapter Approved each year: "Buy a new book that fixes our previous mistakes."

I’ve not mentioned the project here, but since a few people seem to be unaware of it, there is currently a big ‘Heresy 8ed’ project running which has full rules for all Legions, plus Crusade Imperialis. It’s a fan project, so not ideal, but it’s a large group of people all feeding in to a ‘Community Version’ of the rules (which get updated every four months or so). There’s a Dakka thread for feedback on here, but the main project is hosted on the Heresy 30k forums,

The initial work did take a couple of months, but mostly since then it’s been occasional updates. It’s certainly the sort of thing the FW team could do in the same time period (it’s their full-time job after all!).

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731421.page

Yep, already aware and playing. Made a post on the thread actually, not on the Heresy 30k forums but I posted my feedback.

The real future or not of 30k, is staying with whatever current edition of the 40k rules system is being used in my opinion.

Most people play mostly one game with some side games, no-one really wants to play 8th edition rules most of the time for 40k, and then have to switch to a different rules system to play 30k.

The other massive negative is that since 8th edition has made GW tons of money you can easily see that staff and money for 30k projects has been reduced, thus another negative for 30k/7th edition.

As well since 30k didn't go full 8th edition many of us now have models that cant be used in both systems that we used to be able to, which is highly annoying as its mainly due to outspoken 7th edition 30k hardliners that don't want to adjust.

Yes it sucks we bought books that our outdated if it goes to 8th edition now, I did to...but its the GW/FW business model and you can either pirate or pay for the new books they will generate and redo every year or two the way things have been going with the company.

That argument is absolute bunk IMO.

Most people play multiple games, and know multiple rules. I play 40K, 30K, and Team Yankee. Nearly everyone in my community plays 40K, and some other table top game, whether is Yankee, Star Wars, Infinity, etc...

The different rule set is NOT a significant detractor.

 djones520 wrote:
That argument is absolute bunk IMO.

Most people play multiple games, and know multiple rules. I play 40K, 30K, and Team Yankee. Nearly everyone in my community plays 40K, and some other table top game, whether is Yankee, Star Wars, Infinity, etc...

The different rule set is NOT a significant detractor.

it is for me and everyone I've tried to get into 30k(currently).

The different ruleset hurts when my friends play CWE, and Orks and dont want to collect a HH army, so I can't play with them with 7th HH rules, hence 8th HH rules.

(Why I love the fan version on here, kudos to the guys who made it)

Here’s the thing, we were told right from the start that 30k was not designed to be used with 40k, it was a separate game that shared a rulebook and it was nice to be able to play against 40k armies while it lasted, but it was inevitable that somewhere along the line something would happen to make them incompatible, if anyone bought a 30k army exclusively to play against 40k, while I feel for them, it is their own fault for ignoring forge worlds constant warnings in the black books.

On the other end of the spectrum it seems pretty clear that it will be updated to 8/9th at some point, so any of us that don’t like the rules, for whatever reason, need to understand this, we can stay with 7th or we can move over.

Horus heresy is too much of a cash cow to squat.

 Formosa wrote:
Here’s the thing, we were told right from the start that 30k was not designed to be used with 40k, it was a separate game that shared a rulebook and it was nice to be able to play against 40k armies while it lasted, but it was inevitable that somewhere along the line something would happen to make them incompatible, if anyone bought a 30k army exclusively to play against 40k, while I feel for them, it is their own fault for ignoring forge worlds constant warnings in the black books.

On the other end of the spectrum it seems pretty clear that it will be updated to 8/9th at some point, so any of us that don’t like the rules, for whatever reason, need to understand this, we can stay with 7th or we can move over.

Horus heresy is too much of a cash cow to squat.

We were told from the start that Heresy was ‘an expansion’ to 40k. That’s how Alan Bligh used to refer to it.

We were also told that using the Age of Darkness army lists against 40k army lists wasn't intended; it was at best a loophole that wasn't worth closing. It was an "expansion" in that it allowed you to play in a different time period of the setting, not one that added new forces to the existing time period. At no point did anyone say "this is designed so that you can use Sons of Horus against a Tyranid army".

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
We were also told that using the Age of Darkness army lists against 40k army lists wasn't intended; it was at best a loophole that wasn't worth closing. It was an "expansion" in that it allowed you to play in a different time period of the setting, not one that added new forces to the existing time period. At no point did anyone say "this is designed so that you can use Sons of Horus against a Tyranid army".

Yep, In plain speak it goes like this

“Hi, can I use my heresy army in 40k?”

Forge world “weeeeeelllll you caaan, but it’s not really intended or designed for that, so middle through any issues as best you can”


Well the biggest issue now is that the rules are no longer compatible, so fans made their own adhering to the original spirit of “middle through it as best you can”.

And those home brew rules, while not perfect (pretty good though) are gaining traction, they even allowed them at a recent tournament I played in, not a single patron complained and no one seemed to have an issue with it.

 djones520 wrote:
That argument is absolute bunk IMO.

Most people play multiple games, and know multiple rules. I play 40K, 30K, and Team Yankee. Nearly everyone in my community plays 40K, and some other table top game, whether is Yankee, Star Wars, Infinity, etc...

The different rule set is NOT a significant detractor.

For you maybe, for others it’s an issue. GW will follow the $$$ and if they want HH to survive and 8th really is their future then HH will need to evolve. I never liked the 7th Ed rules during my first read through and I honestly played more AoS and Xwing.

To each their own but I do think HH would be improved by using the 8th Ed rules while using more complex codex rules and Rites of War force org modifications. They might also just wait for 9th edition since it seems like we’ve gone through a few recently.

 Fajita Fan wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
That argument is absolute bunk IMO.

Most people play multiple games, and know multiple rules. I play 40K, 30K, and Team Yankee. Nearly everyone in my community plays 40K, and some other table top game, whether is Yankee, Star Wars, Infinity, etc...

The different rule set is NOT a significant detractor.

For you maybe, for others it’s an issue. GW will follow the $$$ and if they want HH to survive and 8th really is their future then HH will need to evolve. I never liked the 7th Ed rules during my first read through and I honestly played more AoS and Xwing.

To each their own but I do think HH would be improved by using the 8th Ed rules while using more complex codex rules and Rites of War force org modifications. They might also just wait for 9th edition since it seems like we’ve gone through a few recently.

8th cannot handle HH as it is though, a lot of the character comes through in rites, legion rules and special units/characters, you lose that when you drop iniciative (emperors children), flatten the WS/BS
so all characters are WS2+ BS2+, thats the primarchs ALL "dumbed down", lack of USR's, the list goes on, if the fan book is anything to go by then its pretty clear that most if not all of the flavour is lost in a port to 8th.

I get that people like 8ths "simplicity" though, and I get that they want to play their HH army against 8th armies, but frankly I dont care, as they have amply shown me through many many forums that they dont care that us 30k players prefer 7th, and be under no illusions that 30k players DO prefer 7th, I have done the poling myself and seen this, on sites such as dakka (primary 40k) they want 8th, on primary 30k sites they want 7th, polled 40k for grown ups and several other FB groups too, it showed clearly that 30kers want 7th (or 1st HH as it was later called).

Imagine if 30k players kept whining that they want 8th players to switch over to 7th all the time so they could get more games, despite being a smaller group within the whole, thats some of the 40k players playing 30k

A lot of the granularity of the primarchs can be handled by codex rules and not necessary rulebook rules. I’m also not in favor of balancing HH with other 8th edition armies, just using a compatible rule set to grow the game.

Let me put it for you this way: despite your scientific polls about which rule set your friends prefer the company itself isn’t concerned with that, they’re concerned with sales. If sales of HH stuff doesn’t grow it either evolves or goes away and look what they did to prices recently. Primarchs cost something like $30 more after the currency change, how is that going to grow sales?

With the main game designer passing and GW seeing better sales after simplifying the rules the writing might be on the wall whether your group likes it or not. There were plenty of people at my store saying they were going to stay with Fantasy rules when AoS came out and I haven’t seen a movement tray in years.

The fan rules look decent and I should actually get in a 30k- 8th edition game in with them this coming week.

However fan rules usually are not allowed in tournaments- thus the need for official 8th ed rules for the 30k stuff. In 7th edition I was able to play my 30k forces in events without issue...was I playing at a disadvantage to 40k formation spam in 7th- yes but it was enjoyable and allowed me to use the armies I had spent a lot of time and money on.

Wargaming is still a smallish hobby in the grand scheme of the world and economies of scale. Thus dividing communities is always a negative to both income for the company and enjoyability of the game system for the players. As dividing the player base makes it more difficult to find other people to play against.

It really makes no sense for GW/FW to keep up the pretence that 30k- 7th edition will continue into the long term and IMO is a waste of resources by the company. As next year we will prolly see a 9th edition of 40k anyway with all the FAQ updates and changes integrated into the main rules.

I also agree with the poster above that stated AoS basically killed off warhammer fantasy completely....many people still play AoS with square based units but never did I see a warhammer fantasy game played at my local stores in the USA after AoS, and only a coupld hold outs play once in awhile from what I have seen in Italy...an most the armies they play havent had battletomes released for AoS yet is probably the reason.

I played 30k forces for about 2 years solid, as I really didnt like 40k 7th edition- An I was one of those on the fence about 8th edition initially....now however I can firmly say 8th edition is just a better game overall, and as far as everyone else that I used to play 30k with....well all of them play 8th ed now instead. The biggest problem 8th edition currently has is balance of the units and they are fixing that with decently quick FAQ and Chapter approved annual releases....something FW for 30k was horrible at.

As to making primarchs and legions specific rules--can easily be done in 8th edition basically just different versions of chapter tactics and special rules. Even the different types of consuls are easy to do as they start with a standarad marine profile with 4 wounds and then change based on the consul type like in the fan rules. It really isnt that difficult just takes a decent game designer a little time and thought to do.

Once you have a system building and modifying stuff for that system really isnt tough to do, balancing is the toughest part and the 40k point tweaks/balancing have gone a long way forward on that front.

As someone who didn't get back into 40k until 8th edition, I'm pretty bummed about the current state of Horus Heresy. The models and lore are awesome, but I can't bring myself to invest in what looks like a dying game from a newcomer perspective.

I kept all of my Fantasy movement trays and all of my armies on square bases and yet AoS - while simpler than 8th or 7th - is a fun (albeit) different game. More people are playing AoS which is good.

The same will happen when - not if - HH evolves. A more complex rule system with wonky wound allocation and multiple modes for fliers isn’t better, it’s just more complex. 8th is by no means perfect but it trimmed some of the stuff that annoyed me about 7th. Simpler isn’t worse and the codices can introduce all kinds of special rules, equipment, and characters.

A primarch hits other models on a 3+, in a new version primarchs can just say they hit on a 3+ or even 2+ which bypasses the normal rules. Alpha Legion can have special infiltrate deployments, IW can get additional tank hunting rules, WE can get extra hand to hand modifiers, etc. There’s nothing to say that HH army books have to be simple using 8th or even 9th edition rules, just standardize the rules to help grow the game because the new astronomical prices for FW resin certainly won’t help that!

 Fajita Fan wrote:
I kept all of my Fantasy movement trays and all of my armies on square bases and yet AoS - while simpler than 8th or 7th - is a fun (albeit) different game. More people are playing AoS which is good.

The same will happen when - not if - HH evolves. A more complex rule system with wonky wound allocation and multiple modes for fliers isn’t better, it’s just more complex. 8th is by no means perfect but it trimmed some of the stuff that annoyed me about 7th. Simpler isn’t worse and the codices can introduce all kinds of special rules, equipment, and characters.

A primarch hits other models on a 3+, in a new version primarchs can just say they hit on a 3+ or even 2+ which bypasses the normal rules. Alpha Legion can have special infiltrate deployments, IW can get additional tank hunting rules, WE can get extra hand to hand modifiers, etc. There’s nothing to say that HH army books have to be simple using 8th or even 9th edition rules, just standardize the rules to help grow the game because the new astronomical prices for FW resin certainly won’t help that!

Yep I agree 7th needs trimming, but not on the level of 8th, throwing the baby out with the bath water is plain bad.

its not just primarchs it ALL characters, 8th has screwed up characters royally with some of the worst mechanics 40k has ever seen, bubbles are worse than joining units, targeting rules are worse, stat lines are all basically the same.

for example

Angron WS+2 BS2+
Lorgar WS 2+ BS2+
Bob the random Praetor WS2+ BS2+

its boring as hell, just like 8th, and yes I know this is purely subjective and im not pretending otherwise, you guys like 8th, I think its average bordering on terrible... exactly the same as 7th, biggest difference to me is this, 7th has more rules that I like, 8th doesnt, no terrain rules/cover, no vehicle facings, still has bloody awful psyker rules (when have they got this right for 40k to be fair), everything dies to a fart in the breeze, still horribly balanced etc. etc.

8th isnt better, its different

In the interest of fairness though I must say the things I like about 8th, mobility of units, tanks etc. reserves, degrading tanks etc. T value for all vehicles... its a bit janky but I like it, if they ported the good stuff to HH I would be a happy camper

I started in third edition and during my first game against a Vehicle Parking Lot list I asked why didn’t vehicles just have a high toughness and armor save like a rolling monstrous creature and was told that would be stupid.

I don’t mind bubbles but I miss characters joining units. From what I understand it was to prevent Death Star units that caused balance issues and monobuild lists. When you have 3,972 codicies these days and every player whining about their balance it felt like they scaled everything back to start the balancing act over again.

Games like this will always be rock, paper, scissors but as a fluff gamer I always try taking fluffy lists anyway. I’d rather play a scenario than a tournament game any day of the week and I’d love to see the HH setting grow.

 Fajita Fan wrote:
I started in third edition and during my first game against a Vehicle Parking Lot list I asked why didn’t vehicles just have a high toughness and armor save like a rolling monstrous creature and was told that would be stupid.

I don’t mind bubbles but I miss characters joining units. From what I understand it was to prevent Death Star units that caused balance issues and monobuild lists. When you have 3,972 codicies these days and every player whining about their balance it felt like they scaled everything back to start the balancing act over again.

Games like this will always be rock, paper, scissors but as a fluff gamer I always try taking fluffy lists anyway. I’d rather play a scenario than a tournament game any day of the week and I’d love to see the HH setting grow.

Yeah I remember them saying that about the bubbles, that’s why I think it’s such a spectacular failure, now I have 4 Death Stars around a couple of characters, rather than 1.

Interesting point though, did you know HH already has bubble abilities ala 8th?

I bought 2 Calth boxes and a Prospero box to start either AL or IW and then when I realized they weren’t going to use the upcoming 8th Ed rules they’ve sat in a box ever since. I have a gazillion other projects including AT, blood bowl, and enough 40k and fantasy to shake a stick at.

I really love the setting though.

 Fajita Fan wrote:
I bought 2 Calth boxes and a Prospero box to start either AL or IW and then when I realized they weren’t going to use the upcoming 8th Ed rules they’ve sat in a box ever since. I have a gazillion other projects including AT, blood bowl, and enough 40k and fantasy to shake a stick at.

I really love the setting though.

Haha I have the same issue with too much stuff and not enough time, however my Dark Angels are on hold now due to removal of the upgrade squads and pushing back of the book, got to admit I was a little pissed when they dropped dark angels as the next book after stating it would be dark angels, blood angels and white scars.

After I stripped my Deathwing - I didn’t like how my white came out - I got them ready for paint and they took Deathwing as an army out of the game. Now I have to do them as Vanguard formations (along with my Sanguinary Guard) so that saps my interest in finishing them.

I did a full 3rd edition style 13th Company army (with chaos armor mixed in) and wanted to get a Leman Russ to turn it into another HH army but now primarchs are $117 US after the currency change.

Why cant people just leave 8th with 40k and 7th with HH? Both rulesets work for their respective games, leave it be.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Why cant people just leave 8th with 40k and 7th with HH? Both rulesets work for their respective games, leave it be.

Different strokes for different folks.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Why cant people just leave 8th with 40k and 7th with HH? Both rulesets work for their respective games, leave it be.

And then I can never find games of HH, but if I can play with 40k players, I can at least use those models.