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I do agree though that Stormtroopers being such a joke kind of detracts from the ability of main characters to be awesome. We except troopers to lose because they suck. I think they actually did an okay job (or at least, a job in the right direction) in the episode where Boba gets his armor back. There was the sergeant trooper who seemed to be experienced and capable, and frustrated with his inadequate troopers. More of that could be rather useful for future narratives. There's really good storm troopers out there, but there's a lot more who are just dudes in armor who have no idea what they're doing. It would make the appearance of an elite squad at some point kind of cool, and produce a setting where things seemed more authentic.
The Death Troopers were arguably supposed to be that elite group. Too bad all we saw them do was show up and point guns at an unarmed scientist farmer and his wife.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: The Death Troopers were arguably supposed to be that elite group. Too bad all we saw them do was show up and point guns at an unarmed scientist farmer and his wife.
There’s a squad of them following Vader around in his current self titled comic series. They haven’t done much there yet either however.
It’s also possible that the Troopers left are either the dregs of the former Legions, or relatively raw recruits from still loyal worlds.
Remember though that in Chapter 16, we did see solid tactics. There was a choke point only overcome because two Mandalorians used their jet packs to outflank from an entirely unexpected angle.
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I do agree though that Stormtroopers being such a joke kind of detracts from the ability of main characters to be awesome. We except troopers to lose because they suck. I think they actually did an okay job (or at least, a job in the right direction) in the episode where Boba gets his armor back. There was the sergeant trooper who seemed to be experienced and capable, and frustrated with his inadequate troopers. More of that could be rather useful for future narratives. There's really good storm troopers out there, but there's a lot more who are just dudes in armor who have no idea what they're doing. It would make the appearance of an elite squad at some point kind of cool, and produce a setting where things seemed more authentic.
Wut?
They helpfully deployed in three waves rather than all at once
They landed well away from the target
They might as well have been yelling 'banzai' as they ran towards the concealed snipers
They didn't fire the guns on their landing craft at all
Their armour is shattered by Boba's stick They told sniper lady that they didn't want to fight her because they were after the child, despite her just having slaughtered loads of them
They don't shoot when they have clear lines of fire to the protagonists
They're only able to score hit's against Mando's beskar armour plates - nowhere else
They take ages to set up their laser cannon, and then the gunner allows himself to be run over by a boulder straight out of Raiders of the Lost Ark
They make no effort to attack Slave I, either when it is on the ground (despite taking out the Razorcrest), or when it is in the air, clearly following the edgy robots
They literally run away from Boba's stupid knee rockets
They have no air support
They make no use of support fire from their capital ship above
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/31 18:39:14
Lance845 wrote: The Death Troopers were arguably supposed to be that elite group. Too bad all we saw them do was show up and point guns at an unarmed scientist farmer and his wife.
And then wife gets the drop on them immediately.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/31 23:12:15
Meh. Star Wars isn't meant to be Saving Private Ryan. It's space opera. A modern take on The Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Saturday morning serial type of future fantasy show. The evil henchmen being largely incompetent except where the story calls for more is well in keeping with that style of story telling
I mean, I can understand that not being to everyone's taste, but expecting it to be different seems like an exercise in futility.
insaniak wrote: Meh. Star Wars isn't meant to be Saving Private Ryan. It's space opera. A modern take on The Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Saturday morning serial type of future fantasy show. The evil henchmen being largely incompetent except where the story calls for more is well in keeping with that style of story telling
I mean, I can understand that not being to everyone's taste, but expecting it to be different seems like an exercise in futility.
Pretty much this.
Remember. Bad Guys can’t aim, and Good Guys never run out of ammo.
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Ugh, the argument that “X is bad so don’t expect X to be good.” When will people realize this in a way of insulting Star Wars — not defending it?
All of us here know that Star Wars can be good, sometimes even great. Likewise, we should all be comfortable pointing out when Star Wars is dumb and bad. Fighting an entire company of Storm Troopers should be dangerous, not a mild inconvenience. When the stakes evaporate, the story is no longer an adventure. That is a bad thing. Bromsy brings up an entirely legitimate criticism.
Too often in Star Wars, it’s either all or nothing. A character is either an unbeatable badass or a clueless mook. It works best when there is something in between, such as Han Solo running away from a platoon of Storm Troopers or Din getting his ass handed to him by a gaggle of Jawas.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/01 00:43:59
Except during the episode with the truck full of explodium, where Mando's gun does inexplicably run out of ammo/jam (?) after only a couple of shots, and then the stormtroopers guarding the bridge/base gun down the attacking pirate aliens without missing a single shot (one-shotting every single enemy!)
Except during the episode with the truck full of explodium, where Mando's gun does inexplicably run out of ammo/jam (?) after only a couple of shots, and then the stormtroopers guarding the bridge/base gun down the attacking pirate aliens without missing a single shot (one-shotting every single enemy!)
That’ll learn him to wear Bad Guy Armour. It’s clearly a medium for the transference of roles
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I give Star Wars a lot of slack because of The Force.
My headcannon is that the Force is basically a semi-sentient consciousness that underlies the universe. Running through all things, binding it together, you know the drill. Now, it’s got plans, it’s got favorites, and it can bend reality to its will. So when “The Force is with you” you get A-level plot armor, and everything breaks your way. When it’s not, you get gunned down like a chump. But the Force is fickle (and it hates stormtroopers).
It’s an in-universe explanation (that mostly holds up) explaining all the stuff we get for it being high fantasy in space. Just replace “the writers” with “the force”
Not sure how well that meshes with The Cannon, but it helps me enjoy things.
Nevelon wrote: I give Star Wars a lot of slack because of The Force.
My headcannon is that the Force is basically a semi-sentient consciousness that underlies the universe. Running through all things, binding it together, you know the drill. Now, it’s got plans, it’s got favorites, and it can bend reality to its will. So when “The Force is with you” you get A-level plot armor, and everything breaks your way. When it’s not, you get gunned down like a chump. But the Force is fickle (and it hates stormtroopers).
It’s an in-universe explanation (that mostly holds up) explaining all the stuff we get for it being high fantasy in space. Just replace “the writers” with “the force”
Not sure how well that meshes with The Cannon, but it helps me enjoy things.
Wow, this is actually a very good explanation. I could definitely support it!
Manchu wrote: Ugh, the argument that “X is bad so don’t expect X to be good.” When will people realize this in a way of insulting Star Wars — not defending it?
.
Nobody was making that argument, though. I never said that the bad guys being unable to shoot straight unless the plot requires it was a bad thing, just that it was an expected thing. I don't have a problem with it, because I don't expect Star Wars to be anything other than the space opera that Lucas has always said he wanted it to be... And that's not a bad thing, because I enjoy that style of movie.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/02 07:59:13
insaniak wrote: the bad guys being unable to shoot straight unless the plot requires it
is not the same thing as this
the space opera that Lucas has always said he wanted it to be
You are conflating a genre with lack of quality. And that is the classic, age-old method of dismissing sci fi, fantasy, and comic books. “It’s just space opera.”
But this doesn’t even address the issue, which has nothing whatsoever to do with genre. It’s a simple matter of universal narrative structure. There have to be stakes. When the scene in question is a gun fight, the stakes are that protagonists could get SHOT. When it becomes apparent that the characters are in no danger of being shot then there are no stakes and so it becomes boring. You can’t hand-waive that problem away by saying “it’s just space opera.”
The other thing is, we’re long past whatever Lucas intended for Star Wars. The OT and (to some extent) the PT were certainly space operas. Rogue One isn’t. The Mandalorian isn’t. The upcoming shows from Disney look to be taking the MCU approach as well, covering a lot of different genres. The “it’s just a space opera” line is less and less relevant.
insaniak wrote: the bad guys being unable to shoot straight unless the plot requires it
is not the same thing as this
the space opera that Lucas has always said he wanted it to be
You are conflating a genre with lack of quality. And that is the classic, age-old method of dismissing sci fi, fantasy, and comic books. “It’s just space opera.”
But this doesn’t even address the issue, which has nothing whatsoever to do with genre. It’s a simple matter of universal narrative structure. There have to be stakes. When the scene in question is a gun fight, the stakes are that protagonists could get SHOT. When it becomes apparent that the characters are in no danger of being shot then there are no stakes and so it becomes boring. You can’t hand-waive that problem away by saying “it’s just space opera.”
The other thing is, we’re long past whatever Lucas intended for Star Wars. The OT and (to some extent) the PT were certainly space operas. Rogue One isn’t. The Mandalorian isn’t. The upcoming shows from Disney look to be taking the MCU approach as well, covering a lot of different genres. The “it’s just a space opera” line is less and less relevant.
This! I don't get how people equate a certain genre with basically accepting mediocrity when there shouldn't be any in the first place. This is the exact same mentality a lot of people have towards cartoons, seeing them as childish or giving them a free pass for being poorly done because they think it's for kids. But that's easily disproven from cartoons that have nuance that is easily accessible to both kids and adults, like the DCAU Batman series, Justice League, or more recent shows like Young Justice or Avatar the Last Airbender.
Similarly, the Mandalorian is 100% a spaghetti western written in space. So while the established setting is still SW, given that it follows the Western genre, you'd expect there to be less flash and more substance and tension when it comes to inevitable showdown between the protagonist and antagonist. The Mandalorian doesn't do too bad of a job there when it comes to Moff Gideon, but in between all of that, the Stormtroopers may as well not exist. When you have a random alien animals and Jawas being more consistent threats to Din than Stormtroopers are, there's a problem when there's a glut of them in the filler episodes. I'd much rather them lower the number of stormtroopers in each scene and have more of a struggle on Din's part to take them down than to literally see them run up and get disarmed in close combat when they could have shot him at range. It gets to the point where you wonder how the Empire even maintained their control when all it takes is people with blasters to gun them down with relative impunity. Given the smaller scale of the show, you would expect the Stormtroopers to be more of a threat as well, because unlike the larger SW films, Din is neither a force sensitive or a war hero, just a competent bounty hunter.
This! I don't get how people equate a certain genre with basically accepting mediocrity when there shouldn't be any in the first place.
There is an irony to how people complain at times that speculative fiction doesn't get respect but then it's also a genre full of dedicated fans who will accept less than the best because they can't accept that something can be both good and flawed.
It's become especially apparent in Star Wars, Star Trek, and a few other long running scifi series the past few years.
The Mandalorian is consistently good and more than occasionally great. There is only one episode (IMO) where the Storm Trooper problem is really to the overall detriment of the storytelling. Most of the time, the stakes driving the tension aren’t JUST about the physical danger but also and more importantly about character development and/or character relationships. So long as the plot of a particular episode doesn’t come down to a prolonged firefight, it isn’t a real threat to the quality of the show. But as S2 went on, and we saw more and more action sequences, it really started to become and issue because there were increasing amounts of screen time where the action was perfunctory because Storm Troopers posed no threat whatsoever.
This! I don't get how people equate a certain genre with basically accepting mediocrity when there shouldn't be any in the first place.
There is an irony to how people complain at times that speculative fiction doesn't get respect but then it's also a genre full of dedicated fans who will accept less than the best because they can't accept that something can be both good and flawed.
It's become especially apparent in Star Wars, Star Trek, and a few other long running scifi series the past few years.
Ironically those same 'dedicated' fans will jump down the throats of creators who they feel aren't faithful to the vision that they idealize, that is pure poison for science fiction, which needs room to wriggle around and play with its ideas. I don't necessarily expect 'good' science fiction out of mass-market franchises (any more than I expect 'good' animation or 'good' family comedy out of the Simpsons) but given the way the Wars and Trek fanbases eviscerate every aspect of every scene, brag about every book they didn't read, etc. is it really any wonder that the studio aims low?
If you want good Sci Fi, read a book. Hell, if you want good Star Wars, read a book - sometimes the stormtroopers even hit people.
Disney and LucasFilm don’t give a gak about what those kinds of fans think. They aren’t aiming low, either. Certainly, the folks behind the Mandalorian aren’t aiming low.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/03 08:16:58
Indeed. It's become increasingly apparent over the years that an awful lot of Star Wars 'fans' don't actually like Star Wars, just their own imagined, idealized version of it.
You can call it 'accepting mediocrity' if you like, but I'm happier having 11 movies and a bunch of other material that I enjoy revisiting repeatedly, than wasting my time complaining about how the makers of those entries don't understand the franchise the way I do and being consistently disappointed. YMMV, obviously.
2021/01/03 08:31:55
Subject: Re:[Star Wars] The Mandalorian (spoilers)
There’s also the issue, alluded to above, that sci fi and fantasy as imaginative genres sometimes need to “push beyond” whatever is established. As much as can be said against the Prequels (and that is plenty), one has to hand it to those movies in terms of expanding the visual vocabulary of Star Wars, which is no mean feat as it turns out. Thematically, I am pretty eager to see how this new initiative called The High Republic might bring fresh new aspects to the franchise, too. As far as The Mandalorian goes, I think a lot of its best moments have been pursuing the deeper aspects of the Western/Samurai genre elements.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/03 08:32:06
insaniak wrote: Indeed. It's become increasingly apparent over the years that an awful lot of Star Wars 'fans' don't actually like Star Wars, just their own imagined, idealized version of it.
I've refered to it in the past as "fan signaling" in that much the same way the term virtue signaling is used to dimiss people who just wanna be offended by things to prove how "virtueous" they are. people who fan signal are mostly intreasted in picking apart everything to prove "how big a fan they are" it's absolutely bat gak insane because if you hate everything except one or two parts of a franchise, you can't REALLY call yourself a fan.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Honestly it doesn’t Really matter how competent you make the Stormtroopers look. You know the good guys are still gonna win in the end. There’s no real fear that Mando eats a blaster to a spot not covered in plot steel. And even if they’re incompetent, they’ll still win if the story calls for it. Real combat involves everyone sitting in cover, firing dozens of missed shots. It’s boring. Even if I myself mock the stormtroopers, it’s still far more Entertaining to watch the good guys pew pewing bad guys like cans on a fence post while doing sick flips off a Boulder.
AduroT wrote: Honestly it doesn’t Really matter how competent you make the Stormtroopers look. You know the good guys are still gonna win in the end. There’s no real fear that Mando eats a blaster to a spot not covered in plot steel. And even if they’re incompetent, they’ll still win if the story calls for it. Real combat involves everyone sitting in cover, firing dozens of missed shots. It’s boring. Even if I myself mock the stormtroopers, it’s still far more Entertaining to watch the good guys pew pewing bad guys like cans on a fence post while doing sick flips off a Boulder.
This guy gets it. Realistic fight scenes are boring.
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Sure, protagonists are unlikely to meet their ends at the hands of mooks. Nonetheless, just the possibility of actually wounding a protagonist would be welcome in contrast to the pointlessness we have come to expect from them. I mean, if running out of ammo were a thing, blasting hapless Storm Troopers would at least drive tension in the sense of reducing the heroes’ capacity to keep on fighting at full capacity but absent that, fighting them is a waste of everyone’s time in- and out-of-universe.
AduroT wrote: Honestly it doesn’t Really matter how competent you make the Stormtroopers look. You know the good guys are still gonna win in the end. There’s no real fear that Mando eats a blaster to a spot not covered in plot steel. And even if they’re incompetent, they’ll still win if the story calls for it. Real combat involves everyone sitting in cover, firing dozens of missed shots. It’s boring. Even if I myself mock the stormtroopers, it’s still far more Entertaining to watch the good guys pew pewing bad guys like cans on a fence post while doing sick flips off a Boulder.
This guy gets it. Realistic fight scenes are boring.
You guys are extrapolating WAAAAY too much from my criticism of the stormtroopers not being a threat. Like I said, when you scale things down in a show that is known for it's galactic conflicts, you have to shift it accordingly to make sure that it still fits the overall narrative. Stormtroopers are just roadblocks to guys like Jedi, but they should do more against non-Force sensitive/war hero level people. Think of it as playing 40k versus Necromunda. In 40k, lasguns are basically weapons you discount as a threat to consider, given that bolters and all these deadlier weapons exist, but they're already a step above autoguns in Necromunda and are closer to the standard to Necromunda due to its smaller gang war scale and how they have to scrounge for resources. Not everyone can have war-level weaponry. The same applies to Mando, where they've established he's a competent bounty hunter and he's had close calls before and thankfully his armour actually does something, but at the same time it's not like he can pull a Luke and murder through 20+ dark troopers.
I'm not asking for Mando to struggle for 30 minutes against two guys. I'm saying that they shouldn't be relentlessly mowed down every time they show up without the Mando or his crew breaking a sweat, since they may as well have just walked through the hallway without anyone being there. By your logic of "realism of boring" and "the protag is gonna win anyways", then would you be satisfied if Mando went solo into Moff Gideon's cruiser with just his jetpack even though it was in space and Moff Gideon just gave him the kid and no one bothered to fight him? Half the fun of watching a show even though you know the protag is going to win is the process and the struggle in between. Just like in a video game you know that in most cases the player character will succeed, it doesn't change the fact that going through the struggle is a big part of the fun, but only IF it's not overly monotonous or numbingly easy, because then whats the point?
I like the Mandalorian as a show, but just because I like it doesn't mean that I can't constructively criticize it or suggest improvements? Are people seriously saying they wouldn't enjoy more tense fights with stormtroopers instead of going through the motions of them dying? Because if I want that, I'd watch Rebels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/03 17:09:14
I totally agree with the video game analogy. This ties into the point I was trying to make about limited ammo. In a video game or even a table top RPG, mooks are there mostly to wear you down before the boss fight and make you think about managing your resources. If they do not even pose that challenge, they might as well not exist. It’s just a waste of time.
In a show like The Mandalorian, we’re not really going to want to count ammo (aside from extremely powerful weapons like Din’s Whistling Bird or Boba’s rocket pack) so fighting a pack of Storm Troopers or other mooks should at the very least take some effort and pose a risk of minor wounds. The worst that happened to a protagonist so far is she killed so many Storm Troopers so quickly that her gun jammed for about 10 seconds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/03 17:23:19
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