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Well, we’re three episodes in to a run of eight in total.

So there’s plenty more to come, and plenty more to be filled in on this particular…..point of view

For instance

On the twins:

I think to be fair, the complete failure of meaningful philosophy in Star Wars, despite constantly alluding to philosophical ideas, is an old problem.

Star Wars is too afraid to break the good/evil stark lines dynamic most of the time to actually delve into anything complex but coherent and every attempt to try has always come off as half-assed. Acolyte is far from the first. The Ghost of Mortis trilogy also had this problem, where the Son and the Daughter were both supposed to be 'extremes' that needed to be balanced, except the daughter was fairly harmless/helpful while the Son was psycho and the Father for all his talk about balance was just a gakky dad who didn't raise his kids right.

But I otherwise agree that the writing, after improving in 2, takes a steep nosedive in 3. This is basically Star Wars: Lost with all the same strengths and weaknesses of Lost, but with none of the novelty of Lost. I still want to know what's going on, but I expect it'll be only half-satisfying at best because the quality of the writing is just poor. So many lines are nakedly contradictory/badly laid out it's a mess trying to sus any deeper meaning from any clues.

The end result is that it's not fun to engage the mystery and we're just waiting for the writers to give us an explanation they spend the whole show bending over backwards trying to hide (so well, even they might have lost it).

EDIT:

Gitzbitah wrote:

Spoiler:

Child of the Force part 2- this is getting out of hand. Now there are 2 of them! That was one of the weakest elements of the prequel trilogy.

Some bad ideas never die. In fact, if you look at extra materials for Episode 9, they get badder.

Spoiler:

I will say I absolutely adore the horrible, horrible pun of the twin that fixes things and loves order is named OSHA. In the USA, that's the organization that enforces workplace safety.

Even funnier is what her job is at the start of the series; violating work safety laws. I feel like that has to be on purpose and I'll concede it's silly enough that I can laugh at it.

Spoiler:

I feel like the episode would have really benefitted from some sort of exposition on the Jedi's part. With, as stated, thousands of children at the temple, and the Jedi don't take children- why have they put so many Jedi and resources into finding and testing these two?

They can't do that.

See, if they bothered to actually lay down a clear trail of clues, or actually explain anything, they'd never be able to justify an eight episode series. /sarcasm

Also, those kind of plot holes are the entire point. If Lost wasn't full of plot holes, then lost wouldn't have any impossible void abysses of unanswerable questions to dangle answers over, teasing you to follow the carrot at the end of the stick with the empty and knowingly false promise that answers await you at the bottom of the hole. But the carrot is a lie. The plot holes are the plot and answering them is tantamount to not having a plot at all. /sarcasm still

But seriously. I'm still on board too, but two episodes in is indeed very much not very far to toss a whole filler/flashback episode at us, especially when they make an entire flashback episode but it answers nothing while teasing a series of questions that seem designed to have no answer.

Not sure I like the way a flashback episode slows the pace right down at this point in the series. It also feels kind of clumsily done overall, in terms of dialogue, plot and dumping everything on us all at once. This feels like it could have been dropped into other episodes as one-act sections rather than fed to us all at once.

Honestly feels too early to talk about pacing and that. We’ve five episodes to go, and so the majority of the plot yet to unfurl.

The comments about conflicting statements and actions are accurate - but I’m currently seeing that as entirely deliberate, playing on “certain point of view” and “only a Sith deals in absolutes”. Persons and cultures either unable or unwilling to see the hypocrisy between what they do and what they preach.

Which ties back to our mystery red lightsaber wielder so far only glimpsed at the end of chapter one.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Honestly feels too early to talk about pacing and that.

I think Olympic runners will be very glad to know this. Will really reduce their stress levels. I mean, it's a whole 1000 meter! The pacing of the first 100 doesn't matter at all

Pacing always matters, and Star Wars tv shows in particular seem to suffer from a persistent pacing problem that comes from many of the series being movie plots that have been dragged out way past their plot's real mileage.

The comments about conflicting statements and actions are accurate - but I’m currently seeing that as entirely deliberate, playing on “certain point of view” and “only a Sith deals in absolutes”. Persons and cultures either unable or unwilling to see the hypocrisy between what they do and what they preach.

Part of me wonders if it's a deliberate ploy of messing with POV, where the memories of the two sisters are blending and that the contradictions are conflicts in how each of them remembers what happens.

But that honestly feels too smart for how bad the rest of the writing is.

Running and writing aren’t the same thing you silly goose

So far we’ve been introduced to the setting, and been shown a pretty different Jedi Order to the one we’re more familiar with.

And we know at least four of them were Silly Sods, and at best grossly mishandled a situation.

We then see some of that situation. But in a way which - so far - doesn’t make much sense.

This is the opening act in what I have to presume for now is your classic three act drama.

You say it’s bad writing. And whilst I won’t write that off entirely? I think we’re yet to see enough of the shape of the whole of the thing to know that for sure. Precisely because



And whilst I can’t rule out “yes, more bad writing and some stuff will just never be referenced, mentioned or acknowledged ever again”? We need to see the rest of the show to be able to have comfortable, informed opinions. Becuase it could very well turn out to be excellently paced, cohesive and well written.

Being a natural optimist I’m inclined more toward the “ideal outcome” of the latter than the former.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Running and writing aren’t the same thing you silly goose

And they're also different from NASCAR racing, but pacing is pacing and pacing matters from start to finish.

That doesn't mean the show can't improve*, but bad pacing is bad pacing whether it happens at the start of a story or the end. Or the middle. Or in between the big parts. Or between every possible fight between side characters. Or at the end because the series is ending so we just deux ex the whole thing to wrap it up.

*Or get worse. Jesus Bleach. I still have traumatic flashbacks to how horrible your pacing got and the anime adaptation of 1000BW just reminds me how agonizingly slow the plot became, and then Kubo had to Deux Ex the ending because he ran out of time XD

Sorry dude but I have to disagree.

We don’t know what’s to come*. So criticism of pacing, for now**, seems premature to me.

*as in, the majority of the show’s run time and story is yet to air at the time of typing

**you may be right in the end, and in due course I’ll be happy to confirm that

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We don’t know what’s to come*.

What's to come has zero effect on pacing.

It's the narrative equivalent of rhythm.

Bad rhythm is just bad rhythm. It doesn't matter than there's 2 and a half minutes left in song. If the rhythm is bad in the first 30 seconds, it's still bad two and a half minutes later. 30 seconds of bad rhythm will always be 30 seconds of bad rhythm.

Acolyte based example; Episode 1 spends its entire run time explaining how the characters figure out something the audience learns in the first five minutes of the show. Episode 1 has gak pacing. We spend the entire runtime waiting for the characters to catch up to us, and the big reveal is something we already know. Episode 2 being better doesn't really change that and no amount of improvement will ever change that episode 1's pacing is bad.

3 also has this problem imo, as basically everything episode 3 spends an entire episode telling us could have been relayed in a five minute monologue by Sol. But episode 3 basically spends the whole episode on what is ultimately a paragraphs worth of new information. Episode 3 has bad pacing.

Episode 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 can't fix that. Episode 3 has already happened and it's pacing was bad.

 LordofHats wrote:
...basically everything episode 3 spends an entire episode telling us could have been relayed in a five minute monologue by Sol.

I mean, you could also narrate the salient points of Empire Strikes Back in a five minute monologue, but then you wouldn't have an actual movie to watch.

Sounds like you might prefer skipping the show and just reading the plot synopsis on Wikipedia.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry dude but I have to disagree.

We don’t know what’s to come*. So criticism of pacing, for now**, seems premature to me.

But pacing is, by definition, a here-and-now problem. An episode may turn out to be important later in the show, but that doesn't mean it gets a free pass for slow pacing when it airs. I strongly suspect this episode will be pivotal in the arc of the season, what with all the various unanswered questions posed in it. The skill of good writing is fitting the requirements of the plot around the need to keep the audience engaged. This episode didn't quite hit the mark for me on the latter point because of both its internal pacing and the way it killed the momentum we'd only just started to build up in episode 2 after the first episode was a bit flat. That's why I suggested splitting up the episode's plot over multiple episodes. That might also have encouraged a bit of pruning of the details.

Annoyingly, these pacing issues are much less of a problem (within reason) on a streaming platform if the whole season is released at once, because you can afford to take a bit of time out given that the next episode is just a click away. By releasing the episodes in a more traditional schedule you run the risk of people tuning out as excitement drops away rather than ramping up.

Yet the episode itself is paced fine? And it’s clear we’ve not seen the whole tale for a reason - and right now, I’m willing to bet that’s for good reason.

It’s playing with the tropes of the setting. Certain Points Of View, Myopic Dedication To One’s Creed Without Introspection. Being Convinced Only Your Way Is The Right Way. Hypocrisy and Complacency.

On your point about streaming and bingeing? I do kind of agree. Because it’s something we as the audience were spoiled with quite early on when Streaming began to put out top notch original content.

For me? It was Daredevil. To be able to sit around in me pants, beer and snacks and pizza on hand and just indulge was quite the treat. And soon that was the norm.

Some shows benefitted, others didn’t. And not just Made For Streaming. I find for instance Supernatural works well on a binge, as the seasonal and inter seasonal arcs do the trick. Other, typically older stuff not so much. For instance Andromeda, where the formulaic nature of the writing becomes really makes its presence known when you’re watching five or six on the trot.

For some shows it depends on the season. American Horror Story for instance.

And so, when it comes to modern, made for streaming, episodic content? We the audience kind of want it now.

But the Acolyte is still not even half way through, and it’s setting out an unseen time period in an otherwise familiar setting. It’s also, as ever, made for as wide an audience as possible, not just us nerds who know our Star Wars. So I stand by my comment and opinion any conclusion about its pacing is premature.

What disagrees with me is that the show doesn't actually take the time to make a point, work with it and let it sink in before it changes direction again. Episode 1 had way to much instant turns on really obvious points, so it's neither satisfy to watch unfold nor get an answer to a question you might have asked if you had more than two seconds to think about it before the next change comes around. Episode 3 has enough parts like that again to bother me.

I don't know if there is a good underlying idea to this story, but if there is, it doesn't feel like it's afforded the time to develop and let the audience engage with it.

On the episode itself:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Spoiler:

this flashback episode has left us with serious questions. How did we go from Mae setting light to a book, to “oh nadgers, that’s a really big fire”, and then “wait, how come they’re dead without being all burned to death?”

There’s more going on here. I’ll all but guarantee it.

Simply put?

I don't think this mystery is even in need of defending, Doc.

We’re clearly being given limited perspectives, to show us how Mae and Osha got to where they currently are respectively.

From there, I really expect a lot of “certain point of view” and morality skewed by extremism (the Jedi, whilst largely beneficial are extremists).

Had the mystery all along been “who am killed the Jedi’s???” I think we’d be in for a much duller show.

I remain enthused, mostly because we really don’t have any guarantees that a given character is still gonna be alive at the end of story. Mae, Osha, the Jedi? We’ve no way to assign plot armour for certain at this stage.

 LordofHats wrote:

Part of me wonders if it's a deliberate ploy of messing with POV, where the memories of the two sisters are blending and that the contradictions are conflicts in how each of them remembers what happens.

But that honestly feels too smart for how bad the rest of the writing is.

This is largely where I'm at. In the first episode I excused some of the weirdness as setup, but then the setup was answered very suddenly without a very satisfying payoff. My inclination to give it the benefit of the doubt has largely not worked out. There's some very basic storytelling done very wrong here.

That said, I'm still quite enjoying it. Something about the vibe and setting really works for me, even when the story does not. It very much captures an older version of the SWU in a way that even KotOR really didn't for me. Even things that I've often felt were kind of jarring in the setting like the Night Sisters feel well integrated here. Digging the vibes, want to see more, but there's very much something off about it.

Suppose we'll see.

Just because the pacing is bad doesn't mean the plot can't come together well by the end.

And in the compliments sandwich mood, I do like that the series explores other force users. Even if it's possibly flawed/weak, getting outside of the Jedi/Sith binary is a good thing.

I mean it’s very obvious that

Too obvious for me.



But hey, hallmark of a decent mystery is multiple suspects. I just hope they don’t Marple us and solve it by revealing information not previously prevented to the audience.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too obvious for me

This is the same show which had the 'secret twin with matching hair!' reveal in the first episode...

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too obvious for me

This is the same show which had the 'secret twin with matching hair!' reveal in the first episode...

...again, because the fact there were twins in the show was never a secret. It would have been beyond pointless to try to keep that as a big mystery reveal.

For my money, the only thing they did wrong there was that the show should have opened with episode 3.

I still consider that a sign of a decently written mystery. You throw out some Really Obvious And Unsurprising Thing.

This gives the reader/viewer/investigator a certain false confidence in their observation skills. And from there, you slowly complicate things.

And that’s what we’re seeing with The Acolyte. We’ve also been treated to “mysterious” backstory - shown from an incomplete point of view.

Again, I remain open to it being a big old bag of nothing by the time the tale is told. But for now, I’m enthused and enjoying it.

 insaniak wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too obvious for me

This is the same show which had the 'secret twin with matching hair!' reveal in the first episode...

...again, because the fact there were twins in the show was never a secret. It would have been beyond pointless to try to keep that as a big mystery reveal.

For my money, the only thing they did wrong there was that the show should have opened with episode 3.

You are on to something! Opening with 3 would have really established the story and setup, and then we'd have a timejump to Osha on a freighter and one of the Jedi going down. Plus there'd be a lot more narrative continuity going into episode 4, presuming that it returns to present day. Excellent idea.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too obvious for me.

Spoiler:

The guilt felt by the Jedi may be more about not doing enough to prevent something, rather than doing something

But hey, hallmark of a decent mystery is multiple suspects. I just hope they don’t Marple us and solve it by revealing information not previously prevented to the audience.

The writing so far just doesn’t strike me as being smart enough for that so far.

Ok, so I’ve just caught up and I have a few thoughts on various things you have been discussing:



Overall I’m not sure what I think of this; it has some new, intriguing ideas for a Star Wars show, but it’s also very janky. The script is very poor in places, there are definitely some plot holes / stupid things that happen because the plot requires them to, and they’re very inconsistent with Jedi powers. They can look into someone’s mind at a whim, unless that would be inconvenient for onscreen tension. They don’t think to use the force to locate someone after they Batman-d their way out of a corner with a cloud of dust, etc. However, some of this could be explained if there is more going on than we’ve seen so far. I don’t think it’s going to become clear until we get to the end of the run.

RE: fire...

My guess?



E3 rewatch notes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

E3 rewatch notes.

Spoiler:

Coven isn’t hiding in their own Super Secret Fortress. Rather, they’re in amongst a civilian population.

Not sure I agree with that.




Sidenote: 15% Rotten Tomatoes audience score for this show is hilarious, while 3 million fewer people watched the premiere of this show than for the premiere of Ahsoka.

Nothing in this show looks to be worth the 180 million dollar budget. Thats near $22 million per episode.