Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

On our not-a-Sith-but-are-they?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Jedi being stupid?

I’d argue it’s quite possibly complacency, following a sustained period of galactic peace and cooperation.

I'm tempted to say it's neither stupidity nor complacency. There's a logical progression to letting Qimir go right there on screen.

When the Jedi strategize, (young and idealistic) Yord suggests the by the book approach to go and arrest Qimir for questioning. (Ever the one-upper) Jecki instead suggests sending Osha undercover to get intel on Mae and for Qimir to incriminate himself. (Bossman) Sol goes with the latter suggestion.

When they come in to arrest Qimir, after the twin act failed pretty much immediately (just to say, that should set expectations for Mae's try), things develop for Sol to ultimately suggest that he might consider letting the apothecary who by his own admission supplies criminal elements with poison for a living go as long as he cooperates in Mae's arrest. Lo and behold, by the end Sol is good to his word and Qimir is let off the hook with a mere warning.

Now it's not necessarily elegantly done and keeping the local Jedi in his very open observation post as if they believe Mae is stupid enough to walk into the same trap a second time (she kind of is, because she kind of does, and it takes some bumbling on the Jedi's part for it to work out for Mae...) raises some questions, but you can read a point into the whole thing that makes the question of following or failing to follow due procedure moot. Sol as the Jedi in charge opts for a deal with the dangerous criminal to secure his actual objective. This plays into the show's theme of the Jedi's moral destitution. It's not like following procedure didn't occur to anyone or wasn't explicitly put up as an option. But the boss made the decision that he expected to produce quick results regardless of the moral implications of letting a poisoner who had a hand in who knows how many murders walk off into the sunset and continue his trade.

It complements Yord's habit of drawing his lightsaber unprovoked in giving actual, visible credence to Lord Smiley's manifesto. This isn't an issue of writing quality, in my opinion. It's a deliberate choice as part of one of the show's big themes.

If Star wars came out now, it would be killed online by people (rightfully) claiming the writing was terrible, because it was.

But at the time, it was the best of what we had.
What happened later did not get a lot better, but it had found its place.
And online impat might have been taken into account, changing what we got.

 Easy E wrote:
If Star wars came out now, it would be killed online by people (rightfully) claiming the writing was terrible, because it was.

The writing wasn't great, sure. A lot of the problems were only created after the movies as a result of the expansion of the SW background. Also, ANH is a fun film with good pacing, decent plot, an conic villain and just enough intriguing sci-fi/fantasy tropes to elevate it above more mundane fare. I don't think many people hold up SW as some sort of genius-level writing, but it is largely successful at what it's aiming to do.

The problem with a lot of the more modern SW stuff is it's not written much better - if at all - but also forgets about things like being fun, or trips over the rules of the setting that have become too constraining over the years. Note that when they get it right it's really, really good, as with Mando or Andor. It's also only really similar to Star Trek and Marvel in how heavily it's been milked over the years. Most franchises don't get to the state some SW properties do because the studios stop well before then.

Just broadly, I think peeps also need to accept that as we get older, we’re naturally more critical of media.

Not only have we seen ever more stuff? But we’re just more mature, and so it’s harder to blow us away as adults than it was when we were kids. And so when a new entry in a long beloved franchise is offered up, we’re prone to disappointment when it doesn’t excite us as it once did.

Now that’s not to say “therefore it all grate you are just old”. Objective crap does exist. But we sometimes mistake mediocre for garbage, because we don’t always consider a lot of what we loved as kids was itself mediocre at best.

Hyper analysis of almost anything will show errors, glitches, imperfections and more. It can also move you out of a film (or creative work) "headspace" and into one of hyper analysis and that in turn can start to erode elements of the whole experience.


I do think that we have had some very wonky and bad writing for Starwars over the years that really shouldn't be the case considering the vast sums spent; however its not alone. Hollywood in general seems to have some massive issues today with pacing, plotting and intelligent action in films. It also doesn't help that a lot of the issues are often fully resolved in earlier versions of the story and script; which steadily get cut, changed, removed, altered, put back, turned around and everything else during the production of the film.

So many of the issues we see are not in the original documents; but are the result of lots of little changes (and some big ones) that all add up to the mess at the end.

Yeah, I’d agree with that.

I even enjoy the sequel trilogy. Individually, each film is fine. But it feels like a trilogy made up of films from different takes on the trilogy. Like nine films were made in total, with two for each stage binned.

Though some criticisms are just daft or plain ill informed. Ahsoka catching heat for her “arms folded, lean backwards a bit stance”. That’s….thats what a now 16 year old character has always done. That’s her signature stance.

And I argue Ahsoka has a more interesting and meaningful heroes journey than Luke.

The inevitable arrival of the "Star Wars has always been crappy, why won't you eat today's Star Wars crap?" narrative is upon us I see.

You could set your clock to it.


OT Star Wars is about a son saving his father. It's about hope and optimism triumphing over cynicism and rationality.

The Acolyte is about there being no good guys. Authority corrupts and no one rises above it.

The show writers have a chip on their shoulders just like Smilo-Ren. Our resident bad guy says the Jedi would call him Sith, implying small and narrowminded Jedi behavior. But the truth is the Jedi haven't labeled anyone a Sith for 900 years. Smilo has either invented all this in his head or the showrunners plan to rewrite history to make him right.

And after making everyone a scumbag they will take pleasure in casting down those who claim moral superiority.

 LordofHats wrote:

It's not Book of Boba Fett bad, but honestly, that's not that much of a milestone.

I don't even think Book of Boba Fett was that bad. It just took a completely random 180 turn on the character. If that show had just focussed on someone other than Boba - who's basically a byword for ruthless - it would've been fine.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

It's not Book of Boba Fett bad, but honestly, that's not that much of a milestone.

I don't even think Book of Boba Fett was that bad. It just took a completely random 180 turn on the character. If that show had just focussed on someone other than Boba - who's basically a byword for ruthless - it would've been fine.

Or after becoming a crime lord he did some, I don’t know, crime?

I'm generally more prone to being on the positive end of the Star Wars debate, but honestly BoBF was bad in a way that the others really aren't. I actually think there's a fine film to be made out of it, but its so light on real content that most of its runtime is padded out to the point where it barely tells its own story. It's probably the worst realized potential out of recent Star Wars projects and the one I had the hardest time enjoying simply because you can clearly see the pieces don't fit but exactly how they were supposed to be put together.

Star Wars had tropes and bad writing, but it benefitted from the era it was released in. We used to look past the bad writing and just have fun.

Today, everyone on social media is obsessed with the current fad of review-bombing everything to death, because evidently helping destroy something gives them some sort of dysfunctional sense of inflated self-worth and a tribal belonging with the other people they are joining.

Modern Star Wars isn't any worse than any of the Star Wars of our youth. Any of us that were kids during the 80's and 90's still had loads of fun watching the Ewok Adventure, don't deny it.

Caravan of Courage is a great kid’s adventure film.

Main downside is the Ewok costumes have terrifying eyes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On our not-a-Sith-but-are-they?

Spoiler:

We now know their identity. But we still don’t actually know who they are, or what their motivations might be. Yes we know they want to expose the Jedi Order. But we’ve no idea why.

The dialogue also suggest Sol should know who he is.

Overall, there’s still a lot of mystery to this not-a-Sith-but-are-they character.

I think the only thing we can know for sure is that he's probably unrelated to Palageius and any apprentices Mr. Wise and Tragic may have. Seems like they're going the route of this being a rogue dark sider.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Star Wars had tropes and bad writing, but it benefitted from the era it was released in. We used to look past the bad writing and just have fun.

Today, everyone on social media is obsessed with the current fad of review-bombing everything to death, because evidently helping destroy something gives them some sort of dysfunctional sense of inflated self-worth and a tribal belonging with the other people they are joining.

Modern Star Wars isn't any worse than any of the Star Wars of our youth. Any of us that were kids during the 80's and 90's still had loads of fun watching the Ewok Adventure, don't deny it.

Honestly, I think Return of the Jedi is very overrated. I feel it gets the love it gets not because of the quality of the film but because of who's in it and what happens during it. ROTJ previewed all the issues with the prequel trilogy, including awkward dialogue that the cast visibly struggles with and emotional moments that it doesn't quite nail. This isn't even a hindsight thing...I can remember seeing it as a kid in the theater and feeling entertained but a little let down.

I'm only one episode into The Acolyte, and so far it seems fine. Ahsoka was the same way...completely fine popcorn entertainment, basically on the level of what SW has been ever since TESB. Andor was clearly a cut above, and probably the best SW live action since TESB IMO. So of course it struggled some with viewership. SW fandom has just gotten so big and diverse in terms of specific interests and interfaces with the IP that they'll never suit everyone anymore. And there is clearly a not-insignificant chunk of SW fans who have an unhealthy/toxic relationship with the IP who have found some kind of purpose with gaking on all of it as you said. It's so weird and sad.

Almost as sad as cheap snipes at other people's opinions instead of just letting people like what they like and dislike what they dislike.

It's really weird watching people dysfunctionally seek self-worth by circle jerking each other about how anyone else is just circle jerking and couldn't possibly have a negative opinion honestly.

Weird and sad indeed.

I vote we allow people to like and dislike things for their own reasons. It's far more civilized.

 LordofHats wrote:
Almost as sad as cheap snipes at other people's opinions instead of just letting people like what they like and dislike what they dislike.

It's really weird watching people dysfunctionally seek self-worth by circle jerking each other about how anyone else is just circle jerking and couldn't possibly have a negative opinion honestly.

Weird and sad indeed.

I vote we allow people to like and dislike things for their own reasons. It's far more civilized.

Wow.

The fact that you were triggered by that fairly tame post...says a lot, I guess. I mean, IF YOU READ that exchange, it really wasn't about labeling everyone who disliked or was lukewarm about this or that SW vehicle. I even stated I'm not a big fan of ROTJ. So that's a strawman on your part. And I wouldn't have thought to put you in the toxic troll category (which does exist) so I'm surprised you're acting so defensive and hyper-sensitive. But if that's how you identify...you do you I suppose...

 gorgon wrote:
The fact that you were triggered by that fairly tame post.

If I've misconstrued, then I apologize. Poe's law is a thing and I saw labeling people 'weird and sad' for having negative opinions to be kind of passive aggressive and snide by default. Especially on Star Wars topics, where it seems impossible to have any opinion without someone deciding you're not allowed to have it.

Especially in this thread, where I've repeatedly been told I'm not allowed to have my opinions so maybe that's some unearned projection sent unfairly your way.

People who 'gak' all over the IP aren't the only people being toxicly trolling in Star Wars. People who demand you must like it or your not allowed to be around are just as toxic.

On ROTL; I don't even think about ROTJ much. New Hope and Strikes Back? Rewatch them here and there but I don't think I've rewatched Return in ages. Actually, I think I've rewatched the prequels more than Return and I don't have a high opinion of the prequels. Always struck me that things that are discernably bad are still more memorable than things that are mediocre or so average they don't stand out at all. There's almost nothing worse in media than just being mediocre. Sure the prequels are bad but the prequels have spawned more memes than I can count.

Like the saga of Anakin's Jedi Thesis;

I really like RotJ. It's definitely got issues but it sticks the landing. Honestly, I think Empire would be far less fondly remembered if it hadn't gotten a properly satisfying follow up.

 LunarSol wrote:
I really like RotJ. It's definitely got issues but it sticks the landing. Honestly, I think Empire would be far less fondly remembered if it hadn't gotten a properly satisfying follow up.

This. Empire ended in a very bleak and dark place. And for some of the faults of ROTJ it really does stick the landing overall.

The climax of RotJ is why I love Star Wars.

Favorite movie of the franchise.

I remember being a bit annoyed as a kid that Vader actually did turn out to be Luke's father, as I was fully convinced after Empire that Vader was lying as part of his attempt to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Other than that, RotJ suffered from so much of it being a retread of things we'd already seen before. We'd already been to Tatooine, and to Dagobah, and a partially completed Death Star was a little naff after we'd already seen a completed one zipping about...

It copped a lot of criticism for the blatant merchandising choices and phoned in acting (particularly from Harrison Ford, who very obviously did not want to be there)... But Ewoks are cool, and all of the new ships introduced in RotJ were brilliant,
.

And, yeah, the battle with the Emperor and Vader was awesome.

It's definitely not my favourite movie of the franchise, but it's still a fun bit of Star Wars.

I did a thread a week or so of my breakdown of what made the Endor Space Battle so great.

And ROTJ is still probably my favourite Star Wars movie. Sure Tattooine is recycled, but Jabba’s Palace and the subsequent battle are just superb. And we get a meaty big battle at the end.

Dagobah does drag slightly, but it still works and moves the plot along. And of course, it’s our first glimpse of how liberal with the truth Jedi can be - from a certain point of view.

I also prefer its overall palette. ESB is very austere in terms of colours, especially pre-special editions. And Cloud City in particular still feels overly clinically clean to me. Like nobody actually lives there.

The space battle's definitely peak.

The only contender in the category I think is the battle at the end of Rogue One.

Acolyte E6 - Teach / Corrupt

Lots of interesting things going on here.

Qimir became the most interesting character in the series in one episode. Meanwhile, I don’t even remember the names of the dead Jedi.

Few days ago I learned that the actor playing Sol didn’t speak English before this series. If thats true he’s doing a pretty damn good job.

 nels1031 wrote:

Spoiler:

I’m thinking Qimir is Green ladies wayward apprentice, hence her desire to cover up as much as possible. And that's who the 4 Jedi were looking for at the Power of Many Mansion.

Decent enough episode this week, with a few more details teased.

Im kind of expecting a further season to be honest.